Protest March 27/11/2010

humberklog

starbelgrade wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Continuing in the playground theme you are determined to keep up, my response to that is.... sticks & stones ....

Sticks and stones may break my bones and f£ck! they really hurt.

No offence SB it's just that I don't get the whole "them and me and a big difference and therefore I WILL ARGUE!!! line of nonsense that's been running through this thread....on both sides by the way.

Mark200

20Cent wrote: »

Kack O'Connar and Begg were booed so the whole I'm not going because I don't want to support Unions meme went out the window. If that is the case why not go and boo them, kill two birds with one stone like a lot of people did.

Yet all the international news headlines are calling it a union protest against cuts. And anyone who went to this protest was a part of the union protest against cuts.

20Cent wrote: »

Reading the posts here of fear mongering and apathy was depressing but there are a lot of people willing to get off their arses despite the weather this morning.

Well actually I was up well before the protest started, got the train into town and for most of the day I was down the road from the protest. I was spending my time doing something productive (as well as posting on boards, of course!).

20Cent wrote: »

As for the "what will it achieve brigade" well for one thing it gave some pride and dignity back to a lot of us. The long term affects are still unknown

So, apart from making you feel good about yourself.... nothing.

20Cent wrote: »

It was defo over 50,000.

What, did you count them yourself or something? How are you so sure?

antibailout wrote: »

I dont believe the RTE report of 50,000. according to the guardian newpaper there was at least 100000, at least that.

The Guardian most likely got it from one of the speakers who apparently claimed that there was 100,000. Yeah, clearly the organisers of the protest have no motivation to exaggerate the turnout where as the Gardai do...... :rolleyes:

starbelgrade

humberklog wrote: »

Sticks and stones may break my bones and f£ck! they really hurt.

No offence SB it's just that I don't get the whole "them and me and a big difference and therefore I WILL ARGUE!!! line of nonsense that's been running through this thread....on both sides by the way.

For me, there is a line between the ICTU and what I work for, which is small businesses like my own... we have fought the unions on many issues & they have been a constant thorn in my side & the side of many SMEs for a long time now.

They are uber-bullies (going back to the playground theme!) who are self serving in many, many ways.

That is my main reason why I didn't support this protest.

I have nothing against anyone who did... but I am loathe to accept the suggestion that those who did not, did so out of laziness or not caring about the country or it's future.

That is no way to try & unite people to a common cause... if anything, all it serves to do is to draw lines & divisions between those who care - which is all of us - and those who believe that the action of protesting today, means that they care more than others, which is simply untrue.

antibailout

What, did you count them yourself or something? How are you so sure?



The Guardian most likely got it from one of the speakers who apparently claimed that there was 100,000. Yeah, clearly the organisers of the protest have no motivation to exaggerate the turnout where as the Gardai do...... :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

It would be very simple to do a rough count on the basis of some of the film clips...and it is quite clear that 50000 is a gross underestimeation.
The Gardai may be more motivated to underestimate the crowd ... health and safety ..etc..

Wit hregard to whether it achieved anything..... it has. It has demonstrated to the Irish people that they care about what happens to their country and that they are prepared to stand up and say so.
FF may try to downplay it by placing patsies on boards like this one to downplay the numbers and the impact.... but they do so at their peril.

Getting back to the IMF and Ireland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iaWyEuoddQ

Amhran Nua

John_Rambo wrote: »

Sorry Starbelgrade, but I attended the march with people from Cork, Wexford, Dublin and Westmeath.

I recognised one well known rentacrowd usual suspect from Galway in the video as well. I'm betting that every one of the people from "all over" you marched with were the standard heavily indoctrinated hard left zealots.

squod wrote:

Separate the debts, sovereign from private.

Then hand the private debts back to whoever holds them right now. I don't care if its called a debt for equity swap, debt restructuring or a default, I'm not going to be held responsible for the gambling debts of the Anglo circle of FF chancers or the international red braces brigade. Sod that.

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

The deficit can be wiped out in no time. Make the Vatican completely liable for it's crimes against children in their Gulag and seize all their assets. Strip all the developers of their ill gotten gains. Stuff the bondholders. Give the infamous Irish diaspora a vote in National Elections (€50 registration fee thank you). Abolish the Seanad, all Lord Mayors and the President.

I like the cut of your jib, sir.

humberklog

starbelgrade wrote: »

For me, there is a line between the ICTU and what I work for, which is small businesses like my own... we have fought the unions on many issues & they have been a constant thorn in my side & the side of many SMEs for a long time now.

They are uber-bullies (going back to the playground theme!) who are self serving in many, many ways.

That is my main reason why I didn't support this protest.

I have nothing against anyone who did... but I am loathe to accept the suggestion that those who did not, did so out of laziness or not caring about the country or it's future.

That is no way to try & unite people to a common cause... if anything, all it serves to do is to draw lines & divisions between those who care - which is all of us - and those who believe that the action of protesting today, means that they care more than others, which is simply untrue.

I hear you barking.

But sometimes you gotta swallow that shioght, me thinks anyways. Compromise etc. other wise one would be waiting on on pure sharp suited, tailor fit reaction all the time from some of the people all of the time. Those that agree with you.

starbelgrade

humberklog wrote: »

I hear you barking.

But sometimes you gotta swallow that shioght, me thinks anyways. Compromise etc. other wise one would be waiting on on pure, sharp suited, tailor fit reaction all the time from some of the people. Those that agree with you.

I get what your saying - and I know a lot of people did compromise today by joining the protest. I totally respect that & I respect everyone's right to protest.

My whole argument along the whole line of this thread however, is that this courtesy has not been extended the other way by a majority of posters.

With them, there has been no compromise whatsoever.

Apart from that, however, it's been an interesting thread - and if anything good has come of it, it's that the discussion for the most part has been open, frank and at times quite informative... which can't be a bad thing!


Oh, and "WOOF!"

humberklog

starbelgrade wrote: »

Apart from that, however, it's been an interesting thread - and if anything good has come of it, it's that the discussion for the most part has been open, frank and at times quite informative... which can't be a bad thing!


Oh, and "WOOF!"

Meeeiow!

Agreed with all your post too.

CDfm

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Refinancing who? the banks.....pah .....:(



I agree and so do many others. I'm old school I always worked for my money and I can't stand it that there are useless ineffectual people working in important roles. Hell I've encountered those very people whose mind blowing crapness we now bankroll. I have no patience for the upper echelons of the public sector and tainted union bosses.

But neither do I see a distinction between myself (private sector taxpayer all my life) and a public sector front line worker. I think the Croke park deal is a pile of sh!te but I have no problem with the ordinary hard working public sector worker.

As individuals I don't have a problem with public services workers but senior public servants are every bit as culpable as senior politicians.

I know that! That's why I want to protest, without those who would manipulate me for their own ends. Be they politicians, union bosses, bondholders that need to take a burn....

And Union Bosses were every bit as responsible as decision makers

dayshah wrote: »

I'm happy with David Begg, and that he helped organised this protest. If you want to jeer the unions, why not organise your own protest? See how many people turn up.

David Begg was a key decision maker both in the Union & in the Regulator and he is as brazen as any Fianna Fail politician, however, he does not have a seat to loose,

Unions are there to stand up for working people, public and private sector. As a private sector worker I'm happy to pay my dues for the job that's done. They leadership do get paid well, but these are not jobs for life, they have the leadership role for set terms. They get salaries that are low in comparison to the size of organisation they manage, and a lot lower than Tom Parlon and so on get.
.

Pro rata they earn more than their UK counterparts

Irish Times Sat 10 Oct 2009Pay of trade union leadersMadam, Colm Keena’s article (Business This Week, October 23rd), which highlighted that John Carr (head of the INTO) and Peter McLoone (head of the Impact trade union) earn in excess of €170,000 per year, has let the cat out of the bag.

So while earning less than a Government Minister on circa 190,000 they earn substantially more than union leaders in the UK

While the average civil servant earns £22,850 a year, Mark Serwotka, head of the PCS union which represents them, earns £111,112. The average teacher takes home £32,630 annually but NUT head NUT Christine Blower takes a salary of £124,483.
Derek Simpson of the Unite union lives in an £800,000 grace-and-favour house with his second wife while taking a salary of £120,328 from his members.


http://www.metro.co.uk/news/833825-trade-union-leaders-threatening-a-class-war-take-home-100-000-pay

starbelgrade wrote: »

For me, there is a line between the ICTU and what I work for, which is small businesses like my own... we have fought the unions on many issues & they have been a constant thorn in my side & the side of many SMEs for a long time now.

They are uber-bullies (going back to the playground theme!) who are self serving in many, many ways.

That is my main reason why I didn't support this protest.

I have nothing against anyone who did... but I am loathe to accept the suggestion that those who did not, did so out of laziness or not caring about the country or it's future.

That is no way to try & unite people to a common cause... if anything, all it serves to do is to draw lines & divisions between those who care - which is all of us - and those who believe that the action of protesting today, means that they care more than others, which is simply untrue.

My gripe is not like yours.

My gripe is that Senior Public Servants and Senior Union Leaders are every bit as culpable as the politicians.

Rebranding themselves as powerless bystanders is a con.

If they are against cuts in the dole then they must negotiate on pay and work practices to deliver services cheaper and free up money for benefit claimants.

The ICTU is an insider here.

dayshah

CDfm wrote: »

Pro rata they earn more than their UK counterparts

So while earning less than a Government Minister on circa 190,000 they earn substantially more than union leaders in the UK

UK comparisons are a bit odd. UNITE (formerly ATGWU) have their headquarters in Belfast, so Jimmy Kelly would be paid a UK rate. UK comparisons are a bit worthless due to rapid currency movements. But even taking the UK as a comparison, Jack O'Connor gets about €112k, which is less than the figures you gave.

Union leaders jobs are to represent their members, not run the country. We pick other people to do that.

starbelgrade wrote: »

For me, there is a line between the ICTU and what I work for, which is small businesses like my own... we have fought the unions on many issues & they have been a constant thorn in my side & the side of many SMEs for a long time now.

Well, in that case I suggest that you are a bad manager. A report showed that Ireland suffers very low management ability. The highest scorers are Germany Sweden and the US. http://www.delni.gov.uk/index/publications/r-and-s-stats/skills-reports/managementmatters.htm

A good manager can work with their employees and their representatives. They can build trust, so that workers will make adjustments to their work practices improving productivity, in return for higher wages or less redundancies. Its all about sharing the pie.

If you are continually in strife with the representatives of your workers, could it be that your HR skills are crap?

CDfm wrote: »

The ICTU is an insider here.

So ICTU members like binmen, or unemployed electricians in the TEEU who are about to emigrate are insiders?

Just who are the outsiders then??

ISME?

John_Rambo

starbelgrade wrote: »

I am a member of ISME. For the past 5 years

So you have a vested interest? It's becoming clear why you are putting the march down, you have a problem with the unions. Well, I am not crazy about the unions myself, but they have done good in the past, maternity leave, rights etc.. You see it wasn't just the unions that were there. I would say the majority of people there were marching against a corrupt government.

starbelgrade wrote: »

So - I will ask you now, what have you done or said

This is my first time doing something like this. The volunteer work I am involved with is inner city youth work.

flash1080

Mark200 wrote: »

Yet all the international news headlines are calling it a union protest against cuts. And anyone who went to this protest was a part of the union protest against cuts.

You shouldn't believe everything you see in the media.

CDfm

dayshah wrote: »

UK comparisons are a bit odd. UNITE (formerly ATGWU) have their headquarters in Belfast, so Jimmy Kelly would be paid a UK rate. UK comparisons are a bit worthless due to rapid currency movements. But even taking the UK as a comparison, Jack O'Connor gets about €112k, which is less than the figures you gave.

You brought up the pay comparisons not me

At launch the exchange rate was c 67 p

so a salary of 170,000 euro would have been £114,000

The exchange rate is now c 85p

Today it would be £144,500 approx

So even at UK salary levels they are paid top whack .

Union leaders jobs are to represent their members, not run the country. We pick other people to do that.

In Ireland with the social partnership the took decisions and exercised power as great as any politician. So what was the march about if not political power.

David Begg , Central Bank Board Member, and Social Partnership negotiator knew the score since 2005.

Like it or not he exercises and exercised huge political power.

So ICTU members like binmen, or unemployed electricians in the TEEU who are about to emigrate are insiders?

You know it is not about that. It is about cuts which if we do not do them ourselves will see the IMF come in .

Currently, the issue is public sector pay cuts and changes in work practices vs cuts in the dole - the IMF would be a lot more severe.

Just who are the outsiders then??

Union leaders are part of the establishment that made the decisions that caused the mess.

Outsiders are the rest of us and they are not representing the unemployed

Chambers of Commerce hit out at ICTU protest


November 26 2010


By Gareth McKeown

Chambers Ireland has said that the ICTU-organised protests against Government cuts on Saturday are "out of touch with reality".

The business group said it is hard to understand why the union is holding the protest "given that ICTU played a major role in delivering the unsustainable structural deficit that the Government now faces."
http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/chambersGPOprotests001/category/1084

Now before you hit out at Chambers of Commerce -the usual members are small shopkeepers etc like you would find in any country town, newsagents, corner shops,petrol stations, internet cafes, boutiques and the like and not big business.

Ordinary people.

To say that the Unions are not a Stakeholder in the decision process is to ignore reality.They had a key role.

Mark200

flash1080 wrote: »

You shouldn't believe everything you see in the media.

I know full well that many people went to the protest for other reasons other than the one the protest was actually intended for. But the point is that regardless of why you went, it was still a union protest against cuts that you were participating in. And the fact that the international headlines are calling it a union protest against cuts just backs up that point. It doesn't matter whether a few people booed a couple of the speakers... as far as the media were concerned, there was a turnout of between 50-100,000 at a union protest against cuts.

K-9

Jaysus, the Unions were big players in social partnership which was all about low taxes, high Social Welfare and pay and other services and putting more money in the peoples pockets so they could afford property.

Arguing otherwise is denial.

Noreen1

starbelgrade wrote: »

That is no way to try & unite people to a common cause...

I'm not so sure! I think a lot of people would attend a rally in their nearest big town, if the aim was to force FF to go to the Country.:D

Noreen

dayshah

CDfm wrote: »

You brought up the pay comparisons not me

At launch the exchange rate was c 67 p

so a salary of 170,000 euro would have been £114,000

The exchange rate is now c 85p

Today it would be £144,500 approx

So even at UK salary levels they are paid top whack .

Jack O'Connor gets €112k, not €170k.

CDfm wrote: »

You know it is not about that. It is about cuts which if we do not do them ourselves will see the IMF come in .

Currently, the issue is public sector pay cuts and changes in work practices vs cuts in the dole - the IMF would be a lot more severe.

That's not the trade off. There are alternatives. That was the whole point of the march. What does the min wage have to do with the deficit? You are just trying to make it into an public/private sector thing. I'm a private sector worker that was at the march. I see the trade off as targetting the poor or increasing inheritance tax and removing tax exemptions.

CDfm wrote: »

Outsiders are the rest of us and they are not representing the unemployed


Now before you hit out at Chambers of Commerce -the usual members are small shopkeepers etc like you would find in any country town, newsagents, corner shops,petrol stations, internet cafes, boutiques and the like and not big business.

Ordinary people.

So if workers organise they are some insider vested interest group, but if business people organise they are outsiders
And you think its the unions that are hypocrites??

dayshah

K-9 wrote: »

Jaysus, the Unions were big players in social partnership which was all about low taxes, high Social Welfare and pay and other services and putting more money in the peoples pockets so they could afford property.

Arguing otherwise is denial.

The unions wanted higher taxes. IBEC wanted lower taxes. The unions were at the table, but it was the government that took decisions.

What support would the unions have got if they called a general strike for higher taxes in 2006?

CDfm

Mark200 wrote: »

as far as the media were concerned, there was a turnout of between 50-100,000 at a union protest against cuts.

And no doubt foreign politicians will look at it as public service workers campaigning for a bigger cut of the bailout package.

They will look at the composition of the unions involved and make that conclusion.

K-9

dayshah wrote: »

The unions wanted higher taxes. IBEC wanted lower taxes. The unions were at the table, but it was the government that took decisions.

What support would the unions have got if they called a general strike for higher taxes in 2006?

They wanted higher income taxes in 2006?

If you have a link on that, I'd be interested in it.

dayshah

K-9 wrote: »

They wanted higher income taxes in 2006?

If you have a link on that, I'd be interested in it.

http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/prebudget_submission_06.pdf

They wanted income tax held steady, and increase bands with inflation.

But they wanted rid off the special exemptions and increase inheritance tax. They wanted to keep stamp duty.

They don't have the earlier things online when they were against McCreevy's reduction of the top rate of income tax.


EDIT: here from 2004 (for budget 2005), wanting to scrap property exemptions.
http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/congress_budget_submission_2005.pdf

CDfm

dayshah wrote: »

Jack O'Connor gets €112k, not €170k.

You are benchmarking here and I googled Union pay and picked the first results and you are cherrypicking the lowest paid.

You picked Tom Parlon and I didnt agree with your comparison. He is an anomalie.

So your argument is with google for throwing up results at random.

That's not the trade off. There are alternatives. That was the whole point of the march. What does the min wage have to do with the deficit? You are just trying to make it into an public/private sector thing. I'm a private sector worker that was at the march. I see the trade off as targetting the poor or increasing inheritance tax and removing tax exemptions.

There are not really a lot of alternatives which are acceptable to the IMF/EU -the game is over really

Its not me but the IMF/EU who are calling the shots - I am saying this complicated system is now over and has collapsed.

So if workers organise they are some insider vested interest group, but if business people organise they are outsiders

Only 32 % of workers are union members and the highest participation rate is public service workers at 81 % . The unions here are representing the public service.

All others and non union members are neither as organised or as close to power as the public service unions.

And business people or non union members are not organised. They vote in democratic elections and these guys avoid democracy and dont want to share the pain with the rest of us.

In the words of Daffy Duck " I hate pain, it hurts".

And you think its the unions that are hypocrites??

Bingo -yes they are hypocrites.

AckwelFoley

I do lol when i hear about unions complaining pay and excess.

Doesnt one of the main union leaders earn 200k per year?

BeefJerkyX

CDfm wrote: »

There are not really a lot of alternatives which are acceptable to the IMF/EU -the game is over really.

What's acceptable to IMF/EU and what's acceptable to Ireland should not be the same thing. I couldn't give a rats ass what's acceptable to the IMF to be honest. They are not serving the interests of the people in this country.

K-9

dayshah wrote: »

http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/prebudget_submission_06.pdf

They wanted income tax held steady, and increase bands with inflation.

But they wanted rid off the special exemptions and increase inheritance tax. They wanted to keep stamp duty.

They don't have the earlier things online when they were against McCreevy's reduction of the top rate of income tax.


EDIT: here from 2004 (for budget 2005), wanting to scrap property exemptions.
http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/congress_budget_submission_2005.pdf

Thanks for the link.

They wanted to increase an already very high Income tax entry point by €410 altogether and increase the 20% band by €5,000 all the while moaning about inflation?

Increase the Health levy limit to €515 per week. It was increased to €500. Increase the PRSI exemption to €420 per week. It was increased to about €350. They also wanted to oncrease the PRSI allowance from €127 per week to €210.

That isn't wanting tax increases!

PS. For good measure they wanted cuts in VAT too!

CDfm

BeefJerkyX wrote: »

What's acceptable to IMF/EU and what's acceptable to Ireland should not be the same thing. I couldn't give a rats ass what's acceptable to the IMF to be honest. They are not serving the interests of the people in this country.

The IMF/EU are the people with the money. They have a say.

The other issue is that we need them to renegeotiate with bondholders and as they see it this is a 3 year process.

Throwing the toys out of the pram will not get us anywhere.

Our power over decision making is gone.

dayshah

CDfm wrote: »

You are benchmarking here and I googled Union pay and picked the first results and you are cherrypicking the lowest paid.

You picked Tom Parlon and I didnt agree with your comparison. He is an anomalie.

So your argument is with google for throwing up results at random.

I picked Jack O'Connor because he was speaking at the march. I don't know what David Begg gets.

CDfm wrote: »

Only 32 % of workers are union members and the highest participation rate is public service workers at 81 % . The unions here are representing the public service.

All others and non union members are neither as organised or as close to power as the public service unions.

And business people or non union members are not organised. They vote in democratic elections and these guys avoid democracy and dont want to share the pain with the rest of us.

Here is union density by sector for Q2 2009.
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/2009/qnhsunionmembership_q22009.pdf
Density has since increased. The vast majority of SIPTU members, and all MANDATE members are in the private sector. ICTUs pre-budget submission promotes a stimulus for the private sector. This public/private bull**** is simply incorrect.

So binmen and unemployed electricians (that are members of TEEU) are insiders, but Seán Quinn and Chambers Ireland are outsiders?

Just come clean, you simply don't like freedom of association for workers.

dayshah

K-9 wrote: »

Thanks for the link.

They wanted to increase an already very high Income tax entry point by €410 altogether and increase the 20% band by €5,000 all the while moaning about inflation?

Increase the Health levy limit to €515 per week. It was increased to €500. Increase the PRSI exemption to €420 per week. It was increased to about €350. They also wanted to oncrease the PRSI allowance from €127 per week to €210.

That isn't wanting tax increases!

PS. For good measure they wanted cuts in VAT too!

Overall they wanted tax increases because they wanted to get rid of exemptions. Remember income tax is only about a quarter of the tax take. This was partially due to all those property exemptions.

CDfm

K-9 wrote: »

Thanks for the link.

They wanted to increase an already very high Income tax entry point by €410 altogether and increase the 20% band by €5,000 all the while moaning about inflation?

Increase the Health levy limit to €515 per week. It was increased to €500. Increase the PRSI exemption to €420 per week. It was increased to about €350. They also wanted to oncrease the PRSI allowance from €127 per week to €210.

That isn't wanting tax increases!

PS. For good measure they wanted cuts in VAT too!

I think what we are getting here will be a move to a low wage low tax open economy .

If that makes it attractive to foreign investors that is.

Oh and I want cuts on VAT as its a consumption tax and dispropotionately affects the poor.

K-9

dayshah wrote: »

I picked Jack O'Connor because he was speaking at the march. I don't know what David Begg gets.




Here is union density by sector for Q2 2009.
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/2009/qnhsunionmembership_q22009.pdf
Density has since increased. The vast majority of SIPTU members, and all MANDATE members are in the private sector. ICTUs pre-budget submission promotes a stimulus for the private sector. This public/private bull**** is simply incorrect.

So binmen and unemployed electricians (that are members of TEEU) are insiders, but Seán Quinn and Chambers Ireland are outsiders?

Just come clean, you simply don't like freedom of association for workers.

The reason density has gone up is because of unemployment!

You couldn't make it up.

Union membership has been dropping for a long time.