Protest March 27/11/2010

dayshah

K-9 wrote: »

The reason density has gone up is because of unemployment!

You couldn't make it up.

Union membership has been dropping for a long time.

Union density declines during booms and increases during recessions. However it was beginning to stabilise by 2005.

Anyway, about 35% are union members, and the majority of members are in the private sector.

The vast majority of workers (even non-members) are covered by union agreements.

K-9

dayshah wrote: »

Overall they wanted tax increases because they wanted to get rid of exemptions. Remember income tax is only about a quarter of the tax take. This was partially due to all those property exemptions.

The point is, it shouldn't be a quarter. Calling for reductions to an already low PRSI system is madness, all the while expecting more Welfare and pay.

If we learn one thing from this mess is to have good services we need to pay more tax and that isn't just the developers and the rich.

CDfm wrote: »

I think what we are getting here will be a move to a low wage low tax open economy .

If that makes it attractive to foreign investors that is.

Oh and I want cuts on VAT as its a consumption tax and dispropotionately affects the poor.

No, the 4 year plan is aiming for more Income taxes on lower wages, to get us to the European average. We were not paying anyway near our share.

Agree on VAT.

Our whole model was less Income taxes, so more pay, high VAT and stamp duties, so spend, spend, spend!

CDfm

dayshah wrote: »

I picked Jack O'Connor because he was speaking at the march. I don't know what David Begg gets.




Here is union density by sector for Q2 2009.
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/2009/qnhsunionmembership_q22009.pdf
Density has since increased. The vast majority of SIPTU members, and all MANDATE members are in the private sector. ICTUs pre-budget submission promotes a stimulus for the private sector. This public/private bull**** is simply incorrect.

So binmen and unemployed electricians (that are members of TEEU) are insiders, but Seán Quinn and Chambers Ireland are outsiders?

Just come clean, you simply don't like freedom of association for workers.

I do not know what David Begg gets either.

You keep coming back to big business and the rich when the unions are representing the public service. I am an average guy and a worker too.

I just can't believe what the Unions representing the public service workers want to do to the rest of us who are not in their priveledged position.

20Cent

Numbers:
Regarding the numbers no I didn't count every single person there but there are reason I think it was much more than 50,000.
Firstly I don't trust RTE to report things correctly, they were reporting 50,000 as the march was just started and I was towards the back. People were still joining it, then when I got to O'Connell St it was announced the start would be delayed because there were still people crossing Capel St bridge. So many many more joined since then and the rte figure did not change. The organisers say 100,000 split the difference 75,000 or so at least in my estimation.

What did it achieve:
From scanning the papers they say the Gov are under intense pressure to reduce the interest rate on the loan. Where is this pressure coming form? Protests perhaps? I'm sure the EU/IMF team are monitoring events closely, they are trying to get the highest rate they can. These protests must figure in their decisions. If it knocks a percentage or even a fraction of a percentage that is billions saved in interest payments.

@Mark200 Yes it did make me feel better thanks. Whats wrong with that?? It also restored some pride in a wounded populace who are feeling helpless at the moment.

Further actions are to come I hope lots of people are making their opinions known to their TDs. Future TDs must know that they have to consider their actions carefully. All the cuts are coming from the lower paid and the most vulnerable. Didn't see anything in the four year plan about Banks or even a cut for TDs, what the hell are they thinking!! Anyway screw the begrudgers everyone else keep up the good work!

dayshah

CDfm wrote: »

You keep coming back to big business and the rich when the unions are representing the public service. I am an average guy and a worker too.

I just can't believe what the Unions representing the public service workers want to do to the rest of us who are not in their priveledged position.

But over half of ICTU members are private sector. The main reason I went on the march was because of the minimum wage. They get an 11.5% cut while the very top executives in the public sector (they aren't represented by ICTU) didn't get the cut that was recommended last year. Outside of the public sector union density is actually highest in multinationals.

Also, I think if the govts plan would work, it would have worked by now. I want to cut off Anglo and AIB (maybe BoI too). I'm sick of throwing good money after bad. I'd rather increase inheritance tax and use the money to build some schools. This would keep some people ticking over until the world economy improves.

(I thought you were in ISME, but it must be another poster)

K-9

dayshah wrote: »

But over half of ICTU members are private sector.

It's a very poor ratio tbh when the private sector, even now, has about 5 times the employees.

dayshah

K-9 wrote: »

It's a very poor ratio tbh when the private sector, even now, has about 5 times the employees.

True. Its hard especially to recruit low paid workers as they switch jobs a lot.

silentmajority

seriously?

silentmajority

yeah really seriously....

silentmajority

My name is URL wrote: »

Yes Ross.. that looks quite seriously

Do you ever leave your house?????

My name is URL

silentmajority wrote: »

Do you ever leave your house?????

Yes.. I don't understand what your fixation is with people leaving their premises. You seem angry that some people decided that they did not want to show themselves to be supportive of the unions by attending a march organised by them. What's the big deal with that?

DublinWriter

silentmajority wrote: »

Do you ever leave your house?????

What, in this weather?

Arcus Arrow

The numbers game goes on after every march no matter where it takes place. The organisers will always say ?000000 and the police will always say ?000. The media quote the police as the official figure.

It's at least something that people were prepared to get out onto the street.

Unfortunately on the street is not where anything is going to be changed unless it involved storming Leinster House and carrying out citizens arrests on every TD in the place.

Not so long ago there was another march that went from Parnell Square to the Dail. Thousands made the journey. It got worldwide media attention.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0610/abuse.html

It achieved zero.

A few of the loudest were bought off. The rest fell to divide and conquer and the rest of the population pretend it never happened.

David Begg and the other union leaders will, at the end of the day, protect their own pay packets first. If they can satisfy their own members (who pay their salaries) then after that they'll be reduced to pious empty statements and the odd indignant sound bite.

This is not a country: it's every gang for itself. If you don't belong to a powerful gang your'e screwed.

dayshah

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

This is not a country: it's every gang for itself. If you don't belong to a powerful gang your'e screwed.

Well there is freedom of association, we are a democracy. That said, much of the union's work affects non-members. Thing like the minimum wage and EROs. In bargaining it also benefits unions to have a strong outside option, which helps explain their support for the minimum wage.

Of course in many companies the law isn't worth the paper its written on, unless you have a union to help you get your rights. In some sectors only 20% of firms pay what workers are legally entitled to.

http://www.paycheckplus.ie/2010/05/17/national-employment-rights-association-%E2%80%93-annual-report/

steddyeddy

silentmajority wrote: »

Do you ever leave your house?????

have you got a people leaving the house fetish?

sponsoredwalk

50,000 people protest yesterday in the snow against this modern-day Maoist
5 4-year plan & yet a poll in after hours is almost 2 to 1 against going,
I think we know how out of touch after hours is with respect to the
real world

Joey the lips

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

50,000 people protest yesterday in the snow against this modern-day Maoist
5 4-year plan & yet a poll in after hours is almost 2 to 1 against going,
I think we know how out of touch after hours is with respect to the
real world

How many were in a position to go mr liberator....

As in i would imagine it very impractical for anyone further out than lucan,bray or balbriggan to attend....

I am sure boards extends beyond the pale.

sponsoredwalk

Joey the lips wrote: »

How many were in a position to go mr liberator....

As in i would imagine it very impractical for anyone further out than lucan,bray or balbriggan to attend....

I am sure boards extends beyond the pale.

Well yeah I thought of that but I didn't want to read through 25 pages
of 40-a-page posts insulting dole-scroungers & protestors to find the
odd person who mentioned this as a reason :pac: So I
assume this is the first thread in AH in which a vote like this is the way
it is because people were snowed in & not because of some high moral
standpoint about damn commie SWP's hijacking protests for their own
sinistra evil motives about eating babies?

mikom

silentmajority wrote: »

Do you ever leave your house?????

Have you drank in Kate Kearneys recently.

zxr500man

i was there:D
i got a lot of pics taken of me,
more than any other day in my life!!
i was carrying my homemade plackard,
(jail the bastards)
did anyone see any pics of me any where??
ya never know!
just for a laugh!
going out again on tuesday,
with a slightly more aggressive one,
(hang the bastards for treason):D

starbelgrade

dayshah wrote: »

Well, in that case I suggest that you are a bad manager. A report showed that Ireland suffers very low management ability. The highest scorers are Germany Sweden and the US. http://www.delni.gov.uk/index/publications/r-and-s-stats/skills-reports/managementmatters.htm

A good manager can work with their employees and their representatives. They can build trust, so that workers will make adjustments to their work practices improving productivity, in return for higher wages or less redundancies. Its all about sharing the pie.

If you are continually in strife with the representatives of your workers, could it be that your HR skills are crap?

And in this case, seeing as you know nothing about my personal situation, I would suggest that you stop talking through your arse & making ridiculous assumptions.

It adds nothing to the debate & only serves to make your argument look petty.

Sharkey 10

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

50,000 people protest yesterday in the snow against this modern-day Maoist
5 4-year plan & yet a poll in after hours is almost 2 to 1 against going,
I think we know how out of touch after hours is with respect to the
real world

I was in support of the march but the irish public was more against going than AH

dayshah

starbelgrade wrote: »

And in this case, seeing as you know nothing about my personal situation, I would suggest that you stop talking through your arse & making ridiculous assumptions.

It adds nothing to the debate & only serves to make your argument look petty.

I only know what you have stated. You are a member of ISME, and have constant HR problems. The former suggests you are a hypocrite for criticising the unions, and the latter a bad manager.

But hey, I can only work on what you post here.

starbelgrade

dayshah wrote: »

I only know what you have stated. You are a member of ISME, and have constant HR problems. The former suggests you are a hypocrite for criticising the unions, and the latter a bad manager.

But hey, I can only work on what you post here.

No. You're not working on what I've posted here. You're just making shit up in an attempt to undermine me.

It's an underhand & sad way of trying to win points in a debate.

Arcus Arrow

dayshah wrote: »

Well there is freedom of association, we are a democracy. That said, much of the union's work affects non-members. Thing like the minimum wage and EROs. In bargaining it also benefits unions to have a strong outside option, which helps explain their support for the minimum wage.

The idea that this is "a democracy" is by now in Ireland a corrupted phrase.
The question is how democratically is the country being run? What kind of democracy are you in when, if the population votes against the wishes of the controlling class (in turn controlled themselves from outside in Ireland's case) they are simply threatened for a few more months and sent back to the polls so they can get it "right" the second time.
(I voted for Lisbon and I would again but that don't make it right).

Unions, in the general context, and IRISH unions are not necessarily the same thing. The cancer that started with the foundation of the State has spread right through the top (sic) level of the country.

I belong to a union. The union that's supposed to represent me is another branch of the same evolved blighted species that you see with our politicians.

The union reps, up to the very top, are not equipped to deal with the people on the other side of the negotiating table. They're out of their league. What they are good at is holding their own positions along with all the benefits.

After Begg, O'Connor and Fitzpatrick sit down to deal with Cowan and Ahern it's a turn of the wheel away from Cowan and Aherne sitting down to face Ollie Rehn and Ajai Chopra. The bullies become the bullied.

Things like the minimum wage, shoes for the footless and spectacles for the blind are too often Irish union leaders paying lip service to the idea of representing a certain class of people. It's a class of people that those on a €100,000 + per year with an expense account, don't belong to. The Copeland suits eat and drink with the Copeland suits.

Killer Pigeon

What would you say to Pat Kenny talking bull on the frontline saying he cares about the Irish people and getting 600,000 a year and during the boom time he was getting 900,000 a year!

So what if O'Connor gets what he gets. Someone of his rank in the private sector would get FAR FAR more. So in other words just cut the right wing bull.

dayshah

starbelgrade wrote: »

No. You're not working on what I've posted here. You're just making shit up in an attempt to undermine me.

It's an underhand & sad way of trying to win points in a debate.

So are you now denying being a member of ISME and having constant problems with unions?

Maybe you should check back over this then.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69258574&postcount=934

stripysocks85

Joey the lips wrote: »

How many were in a position to go mr liberator....

As in i would imagine it very impractical for anyone further out than lucan,bray or balbriggan to attend....

I am sure boards extends beyond the pale.

I know people who drove up from Cork. Granted, they may have been more stupid than loyal considering the driving conditions, but anyone who wanted to go, made it their business to go.

starbelgrade

dayshah wrote: »

So are you now denying being a member of ISME and having constant problems with unions?

Maybe you should check back over this then.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69258574&postcount=934

No - I am not denying that. What I am denying is your assumption, that just because I am a member of ISME, that it somehow, by extension means that I have problems with staff and the management of them.

My problem with the unions is not with their members, but with their management, which is an entirely different thing altogether.

Arcus Arrow

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

What would you say to Pat Kenny talking bull on the frontline saying he cares about the Irish people and getting 600,000 a year and during the boom time he was getting 900,000 a year!

So what if O'Connor gets what he gets. Someone of his rank in the private sector would get FAR FAR more. So in other words just cut the right wing bull.

You have to try to get over simplistically thinking in terms of "right wing v left wing. When either wing gets far more powerful than the other you're going round in a circle.

Pat Kenny is part of the same species as Cowan, Bertie, Begg and O'Connor. This country is wallowing in hypocrisy. In the particular case of union leaders Mr Begg is no more qualified to lecture anyone on the inequalities and corruptions of the controlling class because he is one of them. I'm sure he won't be too vocal about the incestuous effect of people being appointed to sit on multiple boards since he's one of them. David Begg was on the board of the Central Bank when all this was going on. The two faced hypocrite was also on the Aer Lingus board of directors when, in 2007 (or 2008), they voted to increase directors fees by 150%. So on top of his union salary and his other directors fees he got a top up few bob that on it's own was 1.5 times the average industrial wage. A champion of the poor.............