Protest March 27/11/2010

wylo

starbelgrade wrote: »

When did I say anything negative about the protest?

If you say that there was "atmosphere, anger and unity", then who am I to question that? Like I said, I wasn't there.

I merely pointed out that it was a small protest which was supported by a tiny percentage of the population.

Which is a fact.

Yes your stating 'facts' , well done, but please dont pretent you meant them in any other way than putting down the event...

It wasn't a national protest - it was a small march in Dublin which 99% of the population of the country chose not to attend.

Please don't try to make it seem like something which it clearly wasn't.

squod

Mark200 wrote: »

We need the loan. And no budget means causing huge problems for the EU due to uncertainty in the markets. In fact several opposition TDs are considering abstaining from the vote to allow the budget to pass if the Government don't have the numbers.

Europe wants us to take the loan, big difference.

John_Rambo

starbelgrade wrote: »

When did I say anything negative about the protest?

When did you say or do anything?

Keep typing.

Mark200

squod wrote: »

Europe wants us to take the loan, big difference.

I know. But now that the markets think we're taking it... if we don't, it will cause even far bigger problems.

D e e

Are any of you guys going to the protest on the 7th?
Is there a facebook page about it yet?

sonic85

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, not that many people really care. The media have made it seem like every single person in the country is having sleepless nights worrying about the financial state we are in. There are large chunks of the population who don't really give a crap because their lives haven't changed much (yet?) and who don't buy into the whole "OMG WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!!" schite. They just get on with it.

for you ThisRegard

squod

Mark200 wrote: »

I know. But now that the markets think we're taking it... if we don't, it will cause even far bigger problems.

Our sovereign debt is fine. The markets can lick my balls. Seriously, we don't require a bailout, the gamblers and bankers do. What we need is separation from them to fix our country.

lmaopml

squod wrote: »

Europe wants us to take the loan, big difference.

..but in a few months sqoud, when we run out of money to pay Public services etc. we 'will' need the loan from somewhere no?

Mark200

squod wrote: »

Our sovereign debt is fine. The markets can lick my balls.

Grand... and then when we go begging for money in January?

squod

lmaopml wrote: »

..but in a few months sqoud, when we run out of money to pay Public services etc. we 'will' need the loan from somewhere no?

Good point, ten year bonds or a loan from the ECB might do. I won't be hundreds of billions we'll require either as long as the banks are told to take a hike.

KINGVictor

starbelgrade wrote: »

It wasn't a national protest - it was a small march in Dublin which 99% of the population of the country chose not to attend.

Please don't try to make it seem like something which it clearly wasn't.

Your comments are quite subjective to be honest...

Ireland has arguably a population of 6 million people which includes children, elderly people and disabled people ( some of these folks cannot realistically come out to protest due to age and logistical constraints).

Additionally it has an immigrant population which forms about almost 10% of the population.( A lot might not be predisposed to participate)

Considering the treacherous weather today, I think the number of people that came out for the protest all over the country indicates a fair ( putting it quite mildly) representation of public feelings..

Mark200

squod wrote: »

Good point, ten year bonds or a loan from the ECB might do. I won't be hundreds of billions we'll require either as long as the banks are told to take a hike.

So what happens when the banks are told to take a hike and then go bankrupt? Presumably you have a bank account.... you don't mind losing all your money? (Assuming of course the bank guarantee doesn't apply at the time the bankruptcy happens... ).

Wibbs

squod wrote: »

Europe wants us to take the loan, big difference.

Yep. And IMHO they rushed us into it, to stave off other bigger dominoes going down, dominoes they couldn't bail out.

Mark200 wrote: »

I know. But now that the markets think we're taking it... if we don't, it will cause even far bigger problems.

For the EU as well as us, but even more for the former. That should have given us leverage. EU "look if you dont take a bailout others will fall and we cant cover their losses and the sharks will circle" Irish "Grand Ted, so give us the best deal or fook right off". EU "Well then we'll leak that youre in more trouble than you are currently(cue Merkals offside remark)" Irish "Ok we'll take it but give us a better digout or again fook you".

Hey for all the ire aimed at the government, maybe that convo or something like it actually did kick off? After all we're getting a far easier ride than Greece did at the hands of the ECB and IMF*. Now there is talk of 6% interest on the EU loans. I wouldnt be surprised if that comes out lower to sweeten the deal.



*Though I have to say, the IMF guy making a point of walking from his digs to the central bank that first day was taking the piss. I seriously doubt he would have pulled that shíte in Athens. He would have been strung up methinks.

lmaopml

squod wrote: »

Good point, ten year bonds or a loan from the ECB might do. I won't be hundreds of billions we'll require either as long as the banks are told to take a hike.

I thought we had already burnt the ECB bridge though squod, 100billion worth? Seriously, I have no idea at this stage, my head is spinning, all I know is we only have enough to last a few months at best and then.....no guarantees one way or the other....

So we hedge our bets or we give the two fingers basically..

Do you think we should just wing it?

squod

Mark200 wrote: »

So what happens when the banks are told to take a hike and then go bankrupt? Presumably you have a bank account.... you don't mind losing all your money? (Assuming of course the bank guarantee doesn't apply at the time the bankruptcy happens... ).

Some banks are going anyway, bailout or no. The debts of these banks should have been sorted out shortly after the banking guarantee. creditors and liquidators should have met up, done a deal and then walked.

The bank guarantee extends to all banks which we simply cannot afford. We should simply choose which banks fail and which don't. If we didn't have Anglo's debts we'd likely save over 100 billion.

lmaopml

squod wrote: »

Some banks are going anyway, bailout or no. The debts of these banks should have been sorted out shortly after the banking guarantee. creditors and liquidators should have met up, done a deal and then walked.

The bank guarantee extends to all banks which we simply cannot afford. We should simply choose which banks fail and which don't. If we didn't have Anglo's debts we'd likely save over 100 billion.

Aye I hear all about what 'should' have happened squod, if only!...

I'd prefer some guarantees from those who would like to gamble the future now though...'bailout' or 'two fingers to bailout'....

Pros and cons...

squod

lmaopml wrote: »

So we hedge our bets or we give the two fingers basically..

Do you think we should just wing it?

What's gonna happen to Spain and Portugal if we fold? The suits are chancing their' arm here IMO. Bullies if you like.

squod

lmaopml wrote: »

Aye I hear all about what 'should' have happened squod, if only!...

I'd prefer some guarantees from those who would like to gamble the future now though...'bailout' or 'two fingers to bailout'....

Pros and cons...

Separate the debts, sovereign from private. Then run the budget figures again. then we'll know for sure. Easy enough even for Kenny to understand.

lmaopml

Hmm, by all accounts Portugal will fall, probably would have anyway - Spain will literally kill international relations within the EU for the sum of the bailout, or so I believe, it's just so much...I think it's probably, ( in my armchair way ) the reason why this process has been put in place..

I agree that 'negotiation' is key, and yes we are aware of the ^^ above and nobody wants to see that happen...I 'hope'...so 'nuclear' negotiation is the least I expect from our politicians at the table right now...

I wish Sunday came sooner; why is it always a Sunday anyways??

Who would have thought this little island and it's citizens would have so much to think about...

Thing is - my backyard is really small, not enough room to grow spuds etc. maybe the Greens will win, and the Co-op will re-emerge, hair dye will be a thing of the past ( which could be the only plus )..

Feck Sundays anyway.

Wibbs

Sunday cos the markets are dormant. If Spain falls then the oul ECU/Euro is in serious trouble. Now Belgium is showing up on radar. Who next?

lmaopml

Yep Wibbs, and that's the reason why 6.7% is a pile of ask my bum cheeks..

Well, it's four minutes into Sunday now....I'm just dying to hear the devil in the detail....and see people debating more than rumour..

I don't want to see the EU or the open market fail either, but yeah we have to seriously think of a way forward and not on the backs of the Irish -

Who defo need some 'adjustment', damn right, I don't want to see my children face the madness of the illusive Celtic Tiger - but not to be made an example of either..

I'm dying to know now..

..the details..

starbelgrade

John_Rambo wrote: »

When did you say or do anything?

Keep typing.

I am a member of ISME. For the past 5 years, I have worked with them, researched, written & contributed to the following;

- ISME's submission on the European Small Business Act
- ISME's submission to the Joint Oireachtas Committee for European affairs on the Lisbon Treaty
- ISME's Pre-Budget 2011 Submission
- The successful lobbying to introduce a Bank Switching Code
- The successful lobbying of the Competition Authority to conduct an in-depth review of the banking sector to establish charging/lending policies to SMEs.

As well as lobbying for various other issues regarding government policy, the Trade Unions & big businesses.

So, that is when I have done & said something. And yes, it took a lot of typing & I will keep typing, as when it is done in a constructive manner, it can actually achieve something.

So - I will ask you now, what have you done or said, besides turning up at an ICTU protest march & shout a few slogans?

antibailout

squod wrote: »

Some banks are going anyway, bailout or no. The debts of these banks should have been sorted out shortly after the banking guarantee. creditors and liquidators should have met up, done a deal and then walked.

The bank guarantee extends to all banks which we simply cannot afford. We should simply choose which banks fail and which don't. If we didn't have Anglo's debts we'd likely save over 100 billion.

So let the Anglo pay its own debt then ..its simple!

We should take heart from Iceland who refused to take on the banks debts.

Why on earth should a nation take on a bank's debts ?

The IMF has a strange old history.... lending to dictators...and bullying countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSAkoUAFvrE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVKQraVF2w&feature=related

The Irish case is very simple

The ordinary Irish people have done nothing wrong.

They have not defaulted on their loans and many of them have not benefitted from the tigers boom

The Banks have been stupid and have run out of money

Irishmen and Irishwomen have no obligation to these banks nor to the IMF

Watch this excellent film clip for a rationaile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iaWyEuoddQ

squod

Short version.^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLniOkpl1QY

20Cent

Well done all who took part today and shame on you those who could have gone but didn't. Reading the posts here of fear mongering and apathy was depressing but there are a lot of people willing to get off their arses despite the weather this morning. It was defo over 50,000. Groups from all over the country and all types of people, unions, students, groups working with the disabled, lots of non affiliated people.

No violence no arrests just people showing their anger at what is happening to our country. The reading of the Proclamation was touching, Fintan O'Toole was a great MC, Frances Black and Christy Moore. The stories of how this is affecting ordinary people were told. Jack O'Connar and Begg were booed so the whole I'm not going because I don't want to support Unions meme went out the window. If that is the case why not go and boo them, kill two birds with one stone like a lot of people did. Their speeches were the usual guff, would have liked there to have been calls for national strikes, walkouts and civil disobedience.

As for the "what will it achieve brigade" well for one thing it gave some pride and dignity back to a lot of us. The long term affects are still unknown I saw a news bulletin that another FFer is questioning the negotiations didn't get his name. There will be further protests and actions taken in the near future. One march does not bring solutions but its a start. Those who say we deserve it, we are where we are etc that apathy got us here. Then they moan that nothing can be changed more apathy and contradictory to boot. Can't understand that attitude. Just hope all who were there continue the fight!!

humberklog

starbelgrade wrote: »

I am a member of ISME. For the past 5 years, I have worked with them, researched, written & contributed to the following;

- ISME's submission on the European Small Business Act
- ISME's submission to the Joint Oireachtas Committee for European affairs on the Lisbon Treaty
- ISME's Pre-Budget 2011 Submission
- The successful lobbying to introduce a Bank Switching Code
- The successful lobbying of the Competition Authority to conduct an in-depth review of the banking sector to establish charging/lending policies to SMEs.

As well as lobbying for various other issues regarding government policy, the Trade Unions & big businesses.

So, that is when I have done & said something. And yes, it took a lot of typing & I will keep typing, as when it is done in a constructive manner, it can actually achieve something.

So - I will ask you now, what have you done or said, besides turning up at an ICTU protest march & shout a few slogans?

girl.

starbelgrade

humberklog wrote: »

girl.

:rolleyes:

Continuing in the playground theme you are determined to keep up, my response to that is.... sticks & stones ....

antibailout

I dont believe the RTE report of 50,000. according to the guardian newpaper there was at least 100000, at least that.

The Irish media are on the whole abysmal. Where is their coverage?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVKQraVF2w&feature=related

kellogscoffey

The accusation that "we are all to blame for this economic crisis" is rather insulting, to be honest. In fact, its a lie. The ridiculous claim that "we lost the run of ourselves" fails to address the problems we are facing. Losing the run of ourselves consisted of spending more money. And we all know that increased consumer spending is good - it creates jobs, based on the logic that reduced consumer spending results in job losses.

We are not being saddled with €5.75 billion interests payments a year to bail out the man who bought a flash car for €80,000.

We are not taken €15 billion out of the economy in the next four years to bail out the woman who shopped in Brown Thomas, with her credit card.

We are paying €85 billion to bail out banks. We are insuring the losses of these capitalistic entities, in a perverse role-reversal.

We are borrowing money to pay for the running of the country, as the government ignored the fact that an unhealthy proportion of our country was being funded on the back of stamp duty.

I am 18. I will enter the workplace, where 20% of the tax I pay will service interest.

I am not a left wing idealist. I am not a finger-pointer.

I just wish to dispel this myth, that I, or any other average citizen may have somehow contributed to this. I didn't sign the document fusing the Irish banks to the Irish taxpayer in Sept. 2008.

antibailout

kellogscoffey wrote: »

The accusation that "we are all to blame for this economic crisis" is rather insulting, to be honest. In fact, its a lie. The ridiculous claim that "we lost the run of ourselves" fails to address the problems we are facing. Losing the run of ourselves consisted of spending more money. And we all know that increased consumer spending is good - it creates jobs, based on the logic that reduced consumer spending results in job losses.

We are not being saddled with €5.75 billion interests payments a year to bail out the man who bought a flash car for €80,000.

We are not taken €15 billion out of the economy in the next four years to bail out the woman who shopped in Brown Thomas, with her credit card.

We are paying €85 billion to bail out banks. We are insuring the losses of these capitalistic entities, in a perverse role-reversal.

We are borrowing money to pay for the running of the country, as the government ignored the fact that an unhealthy proportion of our country was being funded on the back of stamp duty.

I am 18. I will enter the workplace, where 20% of the tax I pay will service interest.

I am not a left wing idealist. I am not a finger-pointer.

I just wish to dispel this myth, that I, or any other average citizen may have somehow contributed to this. I didn't sign the document fusing the Irish banks to the Irish taxpayer in Sept. 2008.

hurrah!!

You are just 18? Well there is hope for the country if the young generation is anything like you.

and its true that the solution needs much more than Cowan stepping down.... but it will be a start.

Anyone taking his place who is pro bailout will do just as much damage to Ireland.


So ... where does that leave us? Are there any budding politicians out there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-jxoEeLXhk