Jack Russell Puppies - Tail Docking thoughts???

portgirl123

OMG they are beautiful. well done for caring for them so well

January

Ah gorgeous! They're like my little lot, how i miss them

portgirl123

have you homes for them all. i know someone that is looking for a well bred JRT and they want a tail.

SupaDupaFly

portgirl123 wrote: »

have you homes for them all. i know someone that is looking for a well bred JRT and they want a tail.

Thanks portgirl

I have homes for two of them so far. They wont be ready for another five weeks.

cedissapointed

they are so blubbery love them i wanna bite one there so cute anybody would be mad to cut their tails

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

Who does the docking ?. It is totally illegal for anyone other than a Vet to do it & if your Vet does it he is in breach of Irish Veterinary regulations.

You are correct in saying that Vets cannot dock tails due to the professional Body's own regulations, but s/he would not be breaking the law itself by doing so.

I know several Vets who will dock tails.

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

You are correct in saying that Vets cannot dock tails due to the professional Body's own regulations, but s/he would not be breaking the law itself by doing so.

I know several Vets who will dock tails.

I am sure that there are Vets that will. Just as there are Vets who will put down a healthy dog or greyhound. But the majority won't & the dinosaurs Vets are on the way out. Plus docked dogs will become so rare that they will stand out. People will know that the dog has been unnecessarily mutilated. It will be interesting to see what position the IKC take.

When we join the rest of Europe & get an Animal Welfare Bill then it will be illegal.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

I am sure that there are Vets that will. Just as there are Vets who will put down a healthy dog or greyhound. But the majority won't & the dinosaurs Vets are on the way out. Plus docked dogs will become so rare that they will stand out. People will know that the dog has been unnecessarily mutilated. It will be interesting to see what position the IKC take.

When we join the rest of Europe & get an Animal Welfare Bill then it will be illegal.

Some of the vets I know that will do it would resent being called 'dinosaurs'!

There are several breeds where undocked is not the norm and those breeders simply have no choice.

The IKC has remained silent on this ever since The UK outlawed it, and they are unlikely to ever say anything on the matter as they are a rather benevolent lot up there. They don't want to rock the boat with anyone.

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Some of the vets I know that will do it would resent being called 'dinosaurs'!

There are several breeds where undocked is not the norm and those breeders simply have no choice.

The IKC has remained silent on this ever since The UK outlawed it, and they are unlikely to ever say anything on the matter as they are a rather benevolent lot up there. They don't want to rock the boat with anyone.

Veterinary Ireland might resent them going against agreed practice & being out of date with modern medicine.

Well it will not be the norm any longer. I have seen loads of long tailed Boxers, JRT's etc. Of course the breeders have a choices. They can choose not to breed & choose not to dock. We need a test cruelty case as per the other thread.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

We need a test cruelty case as per the other thread.

What does this even mean???

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

As posted in the other thread the organisation that represents Vets in Ireland class any docking as mutilation & will impose penalties on any Vet found carrying it out. Docking will become illegal if & when we get an Animal Welfare Bill.

Whilst docking is not technically illegal one could prosecute on the basis of unnecessary suffering. This normally depends of expert Vet evidence. However the Vets have declared the practice to be cruel & would say so in Court where as the defendant would have problems getting their own Vet to testify.

I am even having to quote myself :eek:

Please can we continue discussing this here rather than having two threads.

PS I am not back seat modding - I am begging for the sake of sanity !

kaiser sauze

Who would prosecute who? Your post is vague.

pokertalk

eeeeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaa thats me jumping threads;)

Discodog

The Gardai initiate all prosecutions & in animal welfare it is often at the request of organisations like the ISPCA.

Anyone could approach the Guards & report a crime of animal cruelty. Whether it would ever get to Court would depend on evidence. In deciding if something is cruel, defined as causing unnecessary suffering, they would rely on evidence. The Vets have already given written opinion that docking is cruel so a prosecution might happen.

Docking was excluded from the cruelty laws because in those days it was not considered cruel but opinion has now changed.

Bullseye1

If we accept that docking tails or shaping dogs ears is not natural then we must also accept that spaying and neutering your dog is also unnatural. There is a higher risk going under the knife in a heavy opperation like spaying/neutering. There may very well be risks of cancer in dogs due to not being spayed but cancers are a naturally occurring element in nature.

In saying that I have accepted the advice given to me buy my vet when he has told me it's better for my dog to be spayed, but in the back of my mind I am happy that I don't have to go through th whole dog in heat business which I went through with my German Shepard who lived to the fine age if 15.

Dogs in the wild survive perfectly well without the intervention of humans in their reproductive system. Just some food for thought.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

The Gardai initiate all prosecutions & in animal welfare it is often at the request of organisations like the ISPCA.

Anyone could approach the Guards & report a crime of animal cruelty. Whether it would ever get to Court would depend on evidence. In deciding if something is cruel, defined as causing unnecessary suffering, they would rely on evidence. The Vets have already given written opinion that docking is cruel so a prosecution might happen.

Your post seems to indicate that there are differing levels of tail docking, some go bad and cause suffering (which I have never seen) to those that go fine.

If people are seeing/hearing of bad tail docking then that does need to be reported to ISPCA.

Bullseye1

Also all pedigree dogs have been manipulated by humans one way or the other. Docking tails is one method of manipulation but it seems to be the one which gets most vocal outcry.

kaiser sauze

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If we accept that docking tails or shaping dogs ears is not natural then we must also accept that spaying and neutering your dog is also unnatural. There is a higher risk going under the knife in a heavy opperation like spaying/neutering. There may very well be risks of cancer in dogs due to not being spayed but cancers are a naturally occurring element in nature.

In saying that I have accepted the advice given to me buy my vet when he has told me it's better for my dog to be spayed, but in the back of my mind I am happy that I don't have to go through th whole dog in heat business which I went through with my German Shepard who lived to the fine age if 15.

Dogs in the wild survive perfectly well without the intervention of humans in their reproductive system. Just some food for thought.

I don't agree with spaying/neutering either, when I first asked about this years ago, the Vet's advice on this was enough for me to say 'no'.

Bullseye1

It's amazing that vets have such differing opinions on these matters.

Discodog

They don't. From what I was told they all attended a conference & agreed that docking is cruel as have Vets in the UK. It's not a difficult decision. Docking is not only unnecessary for a dogs health but it is done for purely cosmetic reasons & it does cause suffering so it's cruel. The same would apply to having your dog's ears pierced for earrings or having it's face lifted.

Cherry Blossom

What are the Veterinary guidelines on removing dewclaws? Not intending on opening another can of worms here but just as a matter of interest.

I ask because my dog was spayed earlier this week and when I took her in I asked if I could have her claws 'done' while she was there, I meant trimmed but the vet misunderstood and though I wanted her dewclaws removed. Thankfully the misunderstanding was cleared up before I left. Just wondering now if she would have done it or not, the conversation didn't get to that stage.

kaiser sauze

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

What are the Veterinary guidelines on removing dewclaws? Not intending on opening another can of worms here but just as a matter of interest.

I ask because my dog was spayed earlier this week and when I took her in I asked if I could have her claws 'done' while she was there, I meant trimmed but the vet misunderstood and though I wanted her dewclaws removed. Thankfully the misunderstanding was cleared up before I left. Just wondering now if she would have done it or not, the conversation didn't get to that stage.

...and while we are on the subject of Vet guidelines, what is the law as regards the removing of dewclaws? Same as docking tails, there is none?

Discodog

Same as tail docking. Its included in the doc linked previously.

I will link it again:

http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf

Bubs99

Dew claws also known as dogs thumbs are not used by dogs anymore, just like our appendix. The nail cannot reach the ground so it doesn't grind like the rest do, this causes severe pain and infections for the dogs...ingrowing toe nails!
Ive worked in a vets before and have seen awful fully ingrown ones and overgrown nails twisted to the side, the poor dogs are in agony if the nails are not trimmed, obviously walking the dog is the main thing to prevent this and the best way.
Not many people get their dogs dew claws removed but it is possible if wanted. Not even all dogs have dew claws.
I clip my dogs when it needs to be done, just keep an eye on it every so often or get your dog groomed.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

Same as tail docking. Its included in the doc linked previously.

I will link it again:

http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf

Appologies, didn't see that earlier post!

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

Same as tail docking. Its included in the doc linked previously.

I will link it again:

http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf

Yes.

The law does not bar it.

And upon reading those guidelines, the Veterinary Ireland position does not bar their members outright either.

john t

let nature live..

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I've never heard of tails being docked in this way, that is terrible.

No according to the Vet report it is usually done with a Stanley knife & no anaesthetic. There is an update here:

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.veterinaryireland.ie%2FLinks%2FPDFs%2FPress%2520Releases%2F2009%2FPress%2520Release%2520on%2520Tail%2520Docking%252027.3.2009.pdf&rct=j&q=docking%20ireland%20vets%20&ei=SEvXTK69DpbKjAfQraS_CQ&usg=AFQjCNEWGt_Mq10W7ititKGy92cJCOkQ9w&sig2=j8oLDEgi32JM5YTWJZX1jw&cad=rja

"VICAS is working on a public education campaign to inform pet owners of what tail docking is,
why it is not necessary and why they should request an un-docked dog when purchasing a
puppy. “Tail docking is a painful, unnecessary act, which poses a significant health risk to the
puppy” he said. “Docking serves no purpose for the dog when done for only cosmetic or
prophylactic reasons. Also, many people who buy a pup do not know how it has been docked
and express surprise and shock when the circumstances under which the procedure is carried
out is explained to them. It is clear on questioning that the vast majority of such owners would
have preferred if their puppy‟s tail had been left as it was when born”

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

No according to the Vet report it is usually done with a Stanley knife & no anaesthetic. There is an update here:

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.veterinaryireland.ie%2FLinks%2FPDFs%2FPress%2520Releases%2F2009%2FPress%2520Release%2520on%2520Tail%2520Docking%252027.3.2009.pdf&rct=j&q=docking%20ireland%20vets%20&ei=SEvXTK69DpbKjAfQraS_CQ&usg=AFQjCNEWGt_Mq10W7ititKGy92cJCOkQ9w&sig2=j8oLDEgi32JM5YTWJZX1jw&cad=rja

I know noone who does it that way.

pokertalk

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I know noone who does it that way.

yeah i believe that is the most common way.i know there is a few breeders on this forum .it would be interesting to hear from them if they dock tails or not and what way they do it