Jack Russell Puppies - Tail Docking thoughts???

Graces7

Discodog wrote: »

Why not ?. He has given a professional public opinion regarding the cruelty involved in banding.

Ask your own Vet if they think it is cruel. Mine used the phrase "utterly barbaric" & she is Irish.



What an total ridiculous & off topic post. Trying to link rape to tail docking ?. Something similar was happening in Irish schools once.

You also forget to add that South African has better Animal Protection Law, & enforcement that we do - but it's hardly difficult to be better than Ireland

So totally true...

ISDW

Graces7 wrote: »

SA vets are clearly waaaaaaaaaay ahead of Irish vets. And more caring and realistic clearly also.

They do this to lambs too. Barbaric.

That is a huge generalisation to make, if you had read the whole thread, and the other one about tail docking you would have seen what the majority of Irish vets think about this practice.

thebullkf

Discodog wrote: »

Why not ?. He has given a professional public opinion regarding the cruelty involved in banding.

Ask your own Vet if they think it is cruel. Mine used the phrase "utterly barbaric" & she is Irish.

i never said it wasn't cruel.

What an total ridiculous & off topic post. Trying to link rape to tail docking ?. Something similar was happening in Irish schools once.

it was in response to whispered's post- asked and answered;)

You also forget to add that South African has better Animal Protection Law, & enforcement that we do - but it's hardly difficult to be better than Ireland

is that why you qouted it?... is docking illegal in SA???

thebullkf

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My housemate is studying veterinary in UCD. An Irish college. There is a guy in his year that is from Botswana. He is being educated here to the same high standard as our vets. Is his opinion any less valid?

nice try:rolleyes:


where did i say opinions were "less valid" ?

thebullkf

Whispered wrote: »

I'm really not - A vet is quoted explaining the risks of docking, and you're talking about it not being relevant as he is south african, then saying it is relevant but still, somehow, not? Because docking may or may not be illegal in S.A.

legalities have nothing to do with what tht vet said. where he is from has nothing to do with what he said. what he said was about pain and risk of infection.

Do you agree?

no i disagree.i've already answered your question on this.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68938880&postcount=169

if something's illegal attitudes towards it tend to be stronger than legal situations.

I mean its legal to marry an animal in some countries, i'm sure their attitudes differ from mine (insofar that i think its obscene)
can you see the relevance of someones birthplace influencing their attitudes now??
For the record: (AGAIN). I don't agree with docking.

can you accept that?

Whispered

No need to be sarcastic.

Of course attitudes are going to be different but the legalities of the country has absolutely no relelvance as to whether or not pups feel pain, or are open to infection on getting their tails docked. The vet didn't say "in my opinion...." he stated a medical fact. And you appear to be questioning this medical fact, based on where the vet is from.

Can you accept that?

thebullkf

Whispered wrote: »

No need to be sarcastic.

Of course attitudes are going to be different but the legalities of the country has absolutely no relelvance as to whether or not pups feel pain, or are open to infection on getting their tails docked. The vet didn't say "in my opinion...." he stated a medical fact. And you appear to be questioning this medical fact, based on where the vet is from.

Can you accept that?

sorry- i wasn't being sarcastic..

i would've used this:rolleyes:.





to be fair he quotes fact and opinion.

i'm not questioning medical fact,i'm questioning why an irish vets quote can't be found.

again i ain't pro docking. just curious is all.

thebullkf

actually according to this he's australian....:eek::eek:

The South Australians seem to be seriously against elastrator banding even for livestock, and the SPCA there prosecuted a dog owner for attempting to neuter the animal with an elastrator. However, it is not entirely clear if the prosecution was for using the method or for mis-applying the ring and causing the dog pain

Read more at Suite101: Use of Elastrator Band for Dog Neutering: Can I Use an Elastrator for my Dog or Cat? http://www.suite101.com/content/use-of-elastrator-band-for-dog-castration-a96893#ixzz14uRQuF6x

Use of Elastrator Banding on Dogs and Cats: Pro

In rural areas, where the devices are freely available and stock handlers are familiar with their use, elastrator banding of companion animals such as dogs and cats by owners or neighbors appears to be not uncommon.
On the pro side, Dan and Laura Lane of Bountiful Farm give careful instructions. They advise on preparing the dog, recommend consultation with a veterinarian before the procedure, explain how to apply the ring, and warn of possible risks. It is important that the person applying the band be familiar with the procedure in order to prevent causing harm or discomfort to the animal.

• Use tetanus anti-toxin to prevent risk of tetanus infection
• Attach the ring close to the scrotum to prevent complications
• Take care not to catch the testicles in the ring
• Be sure no hair is caught under the ring

According to the Lanes, "Done properly, banding a dog takes little time [with] no ill consequences and negligible cost compared to a vet's bill." They go on to note that "Oddly enough, the dogs do not seem to notice the castration activity and thoroughly enjoy individual attention and petting by the person keeping them occupied."


Read more at Suite101: Use of Elastrator Band for Dog Neutering: Can I Use an Elastrator for my Dog or Cat? http://www.suite101.com/content/use-of-elastrator-band-for-dog-castration-a96893#ixzz14uRgqufA

thebullkf

some informed reading from people whereby maybe your location dictates whether you dock or not.... i genuinely never consdidered the cost issue/distance issue cos Irelands such a tiny area....

Australia on the other hand....

If you have one dog that needs to be castrated, we say , by all means, have your vet do it! If, however, you are a farmer with multiple dogs and need to keep veterinary expenses as low as possible, you might want to castrate your dogs on the farm.

To start with, we use two people; one sits at the head of the dog so his attention is focused on this person so the other can work free from interruption. Stretch the band as far as the elastrators will allow and even then with a mature dog, you may need to slide the testicles through one at a time. Place the band as far away from the abdominal wall as possible while ensuring that all of both testicles are clear of the band. Before releasing the band, make sure no hair is caught or catches the band as it rolls off of the elastrator. Finally, give the dog their tetanus shot under the skin not in the muscle.
Here are the reasons to follow the directions exactly:

1. If the band includes any part of the abdominal wall, you risk opening a hole directly into the dog's body cavity exposing the dog to serious and possibly lethal infection.
2. If you catch part of the testicles in the band, we don't really know what will happen but it isn't good. Possibilities range from having a dog capable of producing puppies to getting bitten!
3. If the castrating band has hair rolled into it where it pulls on the dog's skin, it may prove to be an irritant motivating the dog to lick the area incessantly causing open sores and the possibility of infection.

Done properly, banding a dog takes little time, no ill consequences and negligible cost compared to a vet's bill, and your Pyr does not need to be subjected to a general anesthetic.
Oddly enough, the dogs do not seem to notice the castration activity and thoroughly enjoy individual attention and petting by the person keeping them occupied.
Once again, we strongly recommend that you discuss this procedure with your vet for two reasons:

1. If your vet will discuss this in a positive way, you know you have a vet who is concerned about your situation as well as the dog's health;
2. Discussions of this nature between yourself and your vet leads to a greater understanding by both parties and your vet's confidence in your abilities in animal husbandry will make life easier and better for you and your animals down the road.

Whispered

The caps, the "I already answered this" etc came across as sarcasm. As does this little fella . But if you didn't mean it sarcastically then disregard the first line of my post.

So he's from Aus, where according to the bit you quoted, even castration can be carried out with "careful instructions" (:eek:). But he still disagrees with docking due to the pain and infection factor. So going by your opinion; that where your from has a bearing on how you would feel about this, it's an even stronger argument against docking.

(yes it's logical {I think} )

thebullkf

Whispered wrote: »

The caps, the "I already answered this" etc came across as sarcasm. As does this little fella . But if you didn't mean it sarcastically then disregard the first line of my post.

seriously-it wasn't

So he's from Aus, where according to the bit you quoted, even castration can be carried out with "careful instructions" (:eek:). But he still disagrees with docking due to the pain and infection factor. So going by your opinion; that where your from has a bearing on how you would feel about this, it's an even stronger argument against docking.

(yes it's logical {I think} )

but its not when taken into consideration with my other points.


if i had a farm in mid australia,several 100kms from a vet(quite a reasonable assumption considering distances between petrol stations-never mind towns)
then i'd self dock/self medicate/upon advice obviously.

Whispered

thebullkf wrote: »

if i had a farm in mid australia,several 100kms from a vet(quite a reasonable assumption considering distances between petrol stations-never mind towns)
then i'd self dock/self medicate/upon advice obviously.

Self medicate yes, I'd still see docking as unnecessary, whether done by vet or not. It can't really be looked at as the same as medicating in my opinion. Tbh if I had a dog and could not get him to a vet I would prefer not to have him neutered if I had to do it myself. Assuming that I could spare a working bitch for a few weeks when she comes into heat.

If the vets quote is not a strong argument against docking, then I don't know what you're looking for tbh. Maybe I'm missing something in your posts. It seems we have a few points mixed up.

Graces7

Originally Posted by Graces7
SA vets are clearly waaaaaaaaaay ahead of Irish vets. And more caring and realistic clearly also.

They do this to lambs too. Barbaric.
That is a huge generalisation to make, if you had read the whole thread, and the other one about tail docking you would have seen what the majority of Irish vets think about this practice

Not at all... In ten years in Ireland we have not found a vet we can trust with our animals. The only reason our collie is still alive is that we found other resources. Had we trusted the vet? And that is not the only time. Each can only go by experience surely.

Had I hours to spare I would relate all. Not just one vet but time after time after time.

And yes we are in rural areas but still.. We know many others who will only use vets from eg Germany also.

A matter of personal choice

yes I have read the whole thread and the other one, but that does not alter my opinion. The fact is that docking is still legal in ireland; if vets truly thought it was wrong, they would had it changed. Words are cheap

Whispered

I think you may be unlucky Graces. Our vet is fantastic. I trust him 100%. There are some bad apples out there but there are a good many great ones too.

(then again maybe I'm just lucky?)

Graces7

Whispered wrote: »

I think you may be unlucky Graces. Our vet is fantastic. I trust him 100%. There are some bad apples out there but there are a good many great ones too.

(then again maybe I'm just lucky?)

I think yes that you are very lucky.

Once or even twice I could excuse, but our catalogue of bad encounters is too long. We are deeply grateful to folk here who have supported us in so many of these events.

And to the internet also of course. And to family dog breeder/trainers in Canada.

Mind you, I feel much the same re doctors for the same reasons. And I do not think it is a bad thing to challenge and question. To know what is being done and why and to say no if need be. These lessons have been learned in avery hard school indeed here and we are at peace about this. Trust has to be earned now; too much suffering to do else.

If anything is prescribed, for us, for the dogs, we check the internet fully. Always. And there have been many potentially fatal errors made.

thebullkf

Graces7 wrote: »

I think yes that you are very lucky.

Once or even twice I could excuse, but our catalogue of bad encounters is too long. We are deeply grateful to folk here who have supported us in so many of these events.

And to the internet also of course. And to family dog breeder/trainers in Canada.

Mind you, I feel much the same re doctors for the same reasons. And I do not think it is a bad thing to challenge and question. To know what is being done and why and to say no if need be. These lessons have been learned in avery hard school indeed here and we are at peace about this. Trust has to be earned now; too much suffering to do else.

If anything is prescribed, for us, for the dogs, we check the internet fully. Always. And there have been many potentially fatal errors made.

never heard of this personally speaking.

wow!

thebullkf

Whispered wrote: »

Self medicate yes, I'd still see docking as unnecessary, whether done by vet or not. It can't really be looked at as the same as medicating in my opinion. Tbh if I had a dog and could not get him to a vet I would prefer not to have him neutered if I had to do it myself. Assuming that I could spare a working bitch for a few weeks when she comes into heat.

If the vets quote is not a strong argument against docking, then I don't know what you're looking for tbh. Maybe I'm missing something in your posts. It seems we have a few points mixed up.

but if you had lotsof dogs...... anyhows seems like we're circling each other.
as the title states..."...Docking thoughts"

Whispered

Well I agree with you on doctors - I trust my vet more than I do my doctor lol.

Thats a disgrace about potentially fatal errors. I've never had that before, although I know someone who lost a dog when he was put under anaesthetic at 13 years old. Her instinct said not to allow it, the vet recommended it, and her old man never recovered and died a week later. She is convinced that the extra pressure was too much for his heart.

Graces7 wrote: »

I think yes that you are very lucky.

Once or even twice I could excuse, but our catalogue of bad encounters is too long. We are deeply grateful to folk here who have supported us in so many of these events.

And to the internet also of course. And to family dog breeder/trainers in Canada.

Mind you, I feel much the same re doctors for the same reasons. And I do not think it is a bad thing to challenge and question. To know what is being done and why and to say no if need be. These lessons have been learned in avery hard school indeed here and we are at peace about this. Trust has to be earned now; too much suffering to do else.

If anything is prescribed, for us, for the dogs, we check the internet fully. Always. And there have been many potentially fatal errors made.

Whispered

thebullkf wrote: »

Docking thoughts

I think it's wrong and unnecessary.

Discodog

I know a few excellent Irish Vets. The one that I entrust my dogs to is exceptional. But there are definitely more "old school" vets here especially in rural areas. The good ones are often younger & have gained experience outside of Ireland.

Cherry Blossom

Graces7 wrote: »

They do this to lambs too. Barbaric.

Whatever my thoughts on docking dogs, lambs are completely different story, not to dock a lamb is barbaric imo. Anyone who has ever seen a sheep with flystrike will know this.

Whispered

Discodog wrote: »

I know a few excellent Irish Vets. The one that I entrust my dogs to is exceptional. But there are definitely more "old school" vets here especially in rural areas. The good ones are often younger & have gained experience outside of Ireland.

Very interesting - now that I think of it. My vet is either canadian, or gained most of their experince in canada before opening here.

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Whatever my thoughts on docking dogs, lambs are completely different story, not to dock a lamb is barbaric imo. Anyone who has ever seen a sheep with flystrike will know this.

A lot of controversy on that issue. Many farmers do not dock, have never docked & do not get flystrike. It depends on how well the sheep are managed. Pros cons here:

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.animalwelfareapproved.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F08%2FTAFS-2-Management-to-Avoid-Tail-Docking-Sheep-9-22-09.pdf&rct=j&q=avoiding%20flystrike%20lambs&ei=gyzcTIvUNMWwhQfhmJjPAg&usg=AFQjCNGHeXqngKdP-g31Ggr3HlikUtr9Qw&sig2=Zg8xcf1QPdA-3bKqOMv7xA&cad=rja

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

A lot of controversy on that issue. Many farmers do not dock, have never docked & do not get flystrike. It depends on how well the sheep are managed. Pros cons here:

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.animalwelfareapproved.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F08%2FTAFS-2-Management-to-Avoid-Tail-Docking-Sheep-9-22-09.pdf&rct=j&q=avoiding%20flystrike%20lambs&ei=gyzcTIvUNMWwhQfhmJjPAg&usg=AFQjCNGHeXqngKdP-g31Ggr3HlikUtr9Qw&sig2=Zg8xcf1QPdA-3bKqOMv7xA&cad=rja

I would have said it depended largly on where they live, certain climates such as the temperate climate we have in this country will mean they are more suceptible. That report you posted there makes it seem all very simplistic which isn't at all the case and a lot of the management procedures detailed in it are undertaken anyway where possible. It isn't always possible to implement them all though, farmers have to work with what they have in terms of land etc. Then there's also the consideration that it still has to be profitable and I doubt many of the sheep farmers would be engaged in this business if they had an alternative.

Discodog

How anyone, including farmers, earn a living it up to them but I do not think that farming is an excuse for unnecessary suffering. The cruelty laws must apply equally to everyone.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

How anyone, including farmers, earn a living it up to them but I do not think that farming is an excuse for unnecessary suffering. The cruelty laws must apply equally to everyone.

There is no cruelty law about docking lambs which in fact is a procedure carried out for the sole purpose of preventing unnecessary suffering. As I've already hinted at farmers don't chose to farm in most cases but do so because it is the only option they have. Who on earth would work 12+ hour days, 7 days a week just to stay afloat if they could do something else?

Just as a matter of interest, do you personally eat lamb? Or have you ever fed it to your dogs?

Whispered

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, do you personally eat lamb? Or have you ever fed it to your dogs?

I'm not disagreeing with you except to say that in all fairness, people could say the same thing about any form of animal cruelty and consumption of any animal product.

Farming and high standards of animal welfare rarely go hand in hand. So to support animal welfare and still use "farmed" products (as the vast majority of us have to) is a bit of a contradiction at the best of times.

If I've misunderstood the sentiment behind that question - please disregard that post!

Graces7

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

There is no cruelty law about docking lambs which in fact is a procedure carried out for the sole purpose of preventing unnecessary suffering. As I've already hinted at farmers don't chose to farm in most cases but do so because it is the only option they have. Who on earth would work 12+ hour days, 7 days a week just to stay afloat if they could do something else?

Just as a matter of interest, do you personally eat lamb? Or have you ever fed it to your dogs?

You are evading the point; lambs feel pain etc. So what is said re the docking of elastic band docking of dogs applies to lambs also.

Fly strike is easily avoided by good husbandry also. Dagging. Just is the easy way regardless of suffering is all. Like much of the pain caused to animals; for human convenience. Easy to let sheep roam with no checks or real care.

And that question re "do you eat lamb"! Laughable of course.

Graces7

Whispered wrote: »

Very interesting - now that I think of it. My vet is either canadian, or gained most of their experince in canada before opening here.

Says it all!! They are stricter over there and folk stand up to them more also and question.

Vets like drs are only human. And I would trust a good vet nurse more than a vet also.

Lily10

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Getting cats spayed/neutered is a world apart from dog spaying/neutering.

Can you please explain? Especially to those working in the veterinary field because this is news to me... and so your comment about dogs not feeling pain when their tail slowly loses blood supply, become necrotic and falls off. Maybe they are not screaming loudly enough for you.
As for you thinking the puppies must not feel much pain because they feed from their mothers right after docking, I would ask you what baby does not seek comfort from its mother when hurt?