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Jack Russell Puppies - Tail Docking thoughts???

2456

Comments

  • #52
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    pitbull_fanatic wrote: »
    haha! sorry bud. i ment to say their but her took over. it wasnt jus u i was on about though. its alot of people.haha! i'm in stitches here! haha! sorry!

    No probs, I probably look a bit girlie in my avatar :p


  • #53
    pitbull_fanatic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 213 ✭✭pitbull_fanatic


    wat avatar?? i dint see one??


  • #54
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    pitbull_fanatic wrote: »
    i cant believe you are on this thread as well saying the exact same things?!! give it a rest and lighten up. Makikomi was just giving her opinion. your acting like some kind of a cyberbully to people on this forum. u and your "posse"

    Well I tend to say the same things if I think they are right whereas you say a different thing in the same thread. The other thread is on ear pinning which is another form of mutilation.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056061531&page=6

    If you think that you are being bullied you have every right to report the offending post. I assume that my "posse" would be anyone else who disagrees with you.


  • #55
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Wynter Bewildered Transmission wrote: »
    No probs, I probably look a bit girlie in my avatar :p

    You do, actually :D:p


  • #56
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I disagree because he is bigger than me & studies martial arts !


  • #57
    wetdogsmell
    Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭wetdogsmell


    Discodog wrote: »
    I disagree because he is bigger than me & studies martial arts !

    he may be big but he is crap at martial arts :D


  • #58
    RICARDO1982
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭RICARDO1982


    I have 2 JRT's both have full tails sure it helps them communicate with other dogs better dos'nt it. I am sure you will find good homes JRT's are great family dogs!


  • #59
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    wetdogsmell wrote: »
    he may be big but he is crap at martial arts :D

    I've a lovely photo of us two about 5 or 6 years ago, happily rolling around the ring in Finglas to prove the point!.


  • #60
    dahat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,826 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    CreedonsDogDayc wrote: »
    oh cant wait to see pics!!

    If I were you i'd make it a feature when advertising the pups (if you have to advertise them).

    Say something along the lines of "we love these puppies like they are our own dogs, and we've made sure that they haven't come to any harm. We are against painfully removing a pups tail for cosmetic reasons, so these little babies come with a fluffy wagging tail at no extra charge!! ;)"

    By the way www.pedigreedogs.ie is an ethical breeders site for advertising on!

    this site openly advertises pups of many breeds with docked tails........
    so if this site sells docked puppies it is ok but if other sites do it isn't?


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  • #61
    SupaDupaFly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭SupaDupaFly


    Pics as promised ;)


  • #62
    portgirl123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 657 ✭✭✭portgirl123


    OMG they are beautiful. well done for caring for them so well


  • #63
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Ah gorgeous! They're like my little lot, how i miss them :(


  • #64
    portgirl123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 657 ✭✭✭portgirl123


    have you homes for them all. i know someone that is looking for a well bred JRT and they want a tail.


  • #65
    SupaDupaFly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭SupaDupaFly


    portgirl123 wrote: »
    have you homes for them all. i know someone that is looking for a well bred JRT and they want a tail.


    Thanks portgirl ;)

    I have homes for two of them so far. They wont be ready for another five weeks.


  • #66
    cedissapointed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭cedissapointed


    they are so blubbery love them i wanna bite one there so cute anybody would be mad to cut their tails


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  • #67
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    Who does the docking ?. It is totally illegal for anyone other than a Vet to do it & if your Vet does it he is in breach of Irish Veterinary regulations.

    You are correct in saying that Vets cannot dock tails due to the professional Body's own regulations, but s/he would not be breaking the law itself by doing so.

    I know several Vets who will dock tails.


  • #68
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    You are correct in saying that Vets cannot dock tails due to the professional Body's own regulations, but s/he would not be breaking the law itself by doing so.

    I know several Vets who will dock tails.

    I am sure that there are Vets that will. Just as there are Vets who will put down a healthy dog or greyhound. But the majority won't & the dinosaurs Vets are on the way out. Plus docked dogs will become so rare that they will stand out. People will know that the dog has been unnecessarily mutilated. It will be interesting to see what position the IKC take.

    When we join the rest of Europe & get an Animal Welfare Bill then it will be illegal.


  • #69
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    I am sure that there are Vets that will. Just as there are Vets who will put down a healthy dog or greyhound. But the majority won't & the dinosaurs Vets are on the way out. Plus docked dogs will become so rare that they will stand out. People will know that the dog has been unnecessarily mutilated. It will be interesting to see what position the IKC take.

    When we join the rest of Europe & get an Animal Welfare Bill then it will be illegal.

    Some of the vets I know that will do it would resent being called 'dinosaurs'!

    There are several breeds where undocked is not the norm and those breeders simply have no choice.

    The IKC has remained silent on this ever since The UK outlawed it, and they are unlikely to ever say anything on the matter as they are a rather benevolent lot up there. They don't want to rock the boat with anyone.


  • #70
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    Some of the vets I know that will do it would resent being called 'dinosaurs'!

    There are several breeds where undocked is not the norm and those breeders simply have no choice.

    The IKC has remained silent on this ever since The UK outlawed it, and they are unlikely to ever say anything on the matter as they are a rather benevolent lot up there. They don't want to rock the boat with anyone.

    Veterinary Ireland might resent them going against agreed practice & being out of date with modern medicine.

    Well it will not be the norm any longer. I have seen loads of long tailed Boxers, JRT's etc. Of course the breeders have a choices. They can choose not to breed & choose not to dock. We need a test cruelty case as per the other thread.


  • #71
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    We need a test cruelty case as per the other thread.

    What does this even mean??? :confused:


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  • #72
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Discodog wrote: »
    As posted in the other thread the organisation that represents Vets in Ireland class any docking as mutilation & will impose penalties on any Vet found carrying it out. Docking will become illegal if & when we get an Animal Welfare Bill.

    Whilst docking is not technically illegal one could prosecute on the basis of unnecessary suffering. This normally depends of expert Vet evidence. However the Vets have declared the practice to be cruel & would say so in Court where as the defendant would have problems getting their own Vet to testify.

    I am even having to quote myself :eek:

    Please can we continue discussing this here rather than having two threads.

    PS I am not back seat modding - I am begging for the sake of sanity !


  • #73
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Who would prosecute who? Your post is vague.


  • #74
    pokertalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    eeeeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaa thats me jumping threads;)


  • #75
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    The Gardai initiate all prosecutions & in animal welfare it is often at the request of organisations like the ISPCA.

    Anyone could approach the Guards & report a crime of animal cruelty. Whether it would ever get to Court would depend on evidence. In deciding if something is cruel, defined as causing unnecessary suffering, they would rely on evidence. The Vets have already given written opinion that docking is cruel so a prosecution might happen.

    Docking was excluded from the cruelty laws because in those days it was not considered cruel but opinion has now changed.


  • #76
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    If we accept that docking tails or shaping dogs ears is not natural then we must also accept that spaying and neutering your dog is also unnatural. There is a higher risk going under the knife in a heavy opperation like spaying/neutering. There may very well be risks of cancer in dogs due to not being spayed but cancers are a naturally occurring element in nature.

    In saying that I have accepted the advice given to me buy my vet when he has told me it's better for my dog to be spayed, but in the back of my mind I am happy that I don't have to go through th whole dog in heat business which I went through with my German Shepard who lived to the fine age if 15.

    Dogs in the wild survive perfectly well without the intervention of humans in their reproductive system. Just some food for thought.


  • #77
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    The Gardai initiate all prosecutions & in animal welfare it is often at the request of organisations like the ISPCA.

    Anyone could approach the Guards & report a crime of animal cruelty. Whether it would ever get to Court would depend on evidence. In deciding if something is cruel, defined as causing unnecessary suffering, they would rely on evidence. The Vets have already given written opinion that docking is cruel so a prosecution might happen.

    Your post seems to indicate that there are differing levels of tail docking, some go bad and cause suffering (which I have never seen) to those that go fine.

    If people are seeing/hearing of bad tail docking then that does need to be reported to ISPCA.


  • #78
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Also all pedigree dogs have been manipulated by humans one way or the other. Docking tails is one method of manipulation but it seems to be the one which gets most vocal outcry.


  • #79
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    If we accept that docking tails or shaping dogs ears is not natural then we must also accept that spaying and neutering your dog is also unnatural. There is a higher risk going under the knife in a heavy opperation like spaying/neutering. There may very well be risks of cancer in dogs due to not being spayed but cancers are a naturally occurring element in nature.

    In saying that I have accepted the advice given to me buy my vet when he has told me it's better for my dog to be spayed, but in the back of my mind I am happy that I don't have to go through th whole dog in heat business which I went through with my German Shepard who lived to the fine age if 15.

    Dogs in the wild survive perfectly well without the intervention of humans in their reproductive system. Just some food for thought.

    I don't agree with spaying/neutering either, when I first asked about this years ago, the Vet's advice on this was enough for me to say 'no'.


  • #80
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    It's amazing that vets have such differing opinions on these matters.


  • #81
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    They don't. From what I was told they all attended a conference & agreed that docking is cruel as have Vets in the UK. It's not a difficult decision. Docking is not only unnecessary for a dogs health but it is done for purely cosmetic reasons & it does cause suffering so it's cruel. The same would apply to having your dog's ears pierced for earrings or having it's face lifted.


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  • #82
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,964 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    What are the Veterinary guidelines on removing dewclaws? Not intending on opening another can of worms here but just as a matter of interest.

    I ask because my dog was spayed earlier this week and when I took her in I asked if I could have her claws 'done' while she was there, I meant trimmed but the vet misunderstood and though I wanted her dewclaws removed. Thankfully the misunderstanding was cleared up before I left. Just wondering now if she would have done it or not, the conversation didn't get to that stage.


  • #83
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    adrenalinjunkie wrote: »
    What are the Veterinary guidelines on removing dewclaws? Not intending on opening another can of worms here but just as a matter of interest.

    I ask because my dog was spayed earlier this week and when I took her in I asked if I could have her claws 'done' while she was there, I meant trimmed but the vet misunderstood and though I wanted her dewclaws removed. Thankfully the misunderstanding was cleared up before I left. Just wondering now if she would have done it or not, the conversation didn't get to that stage.

    ...and while we are on the subject of Vet guidelines, what is the law as regards the removing of dewclaws? Same as docking tails, there is none?


  • #84
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Same as tail docking. Its included in the doc linked previously.

    I will link it again:

    http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf


  • #85
    Bubs99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bubs99


    Dew claws also known as dogs thumbs are not used by dogs anymore, just like our appendix. The nail cannot reach the ground so it doesn't grind like the rest do, this causes severe pain and infections for the dogs...ingrowing toe nails!
    Ive worked in a vets before and have seen awful fully ingrown ones and overgrown nails twisted to the side, the poor dogs are in agony if the nails are not trimmed, obviously walking the dog is the main thing to prevent this and the best way.
    Not many people get their dogs dew claws removed but it is possible if wanted. Not even all dogs have dew claws.
    I clip my dogs when it needs to be done, just keep an eye on it every so often or get your dog groomed.


  • #86
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,964 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Discodog wrote: »
    Same as tail docking. Its included in the doc linked previously.

    I will link it again:

    http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf

    Appologies, didn't see that earlier post!


  • #87
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    Same as tail docking. Its included in the doc linked previously.

    I will link it again:

    http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf

    Yes.

    The law does not bar it.

    And upon reading those guidelines, the Veterinary Ireland position does not bar their members outright either.


  • #88
    john t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 295 ✭✭john t


    let nature live..


  • #89
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    I've never heard of tails being docked in this way, that is terrible.

    No according to the Vet report it is usually done with a Stanley knife & no anaesthetic. There is an update here:

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.veterinaryireland.ie%2FLinks%2FPDFs%2FPress%2520Releases%2F2009%2FPress%2520Release%2520on%2520Tail%2520Docking%252027.3.2009.pdf&rct=j&q=docking%20ireland%20vets%20&ei=SEvXTK69DpbKjAfQraS_CQ&usg=AFQjCNEWGt_Mq10W7ititKGy92cJCOkQ9w&sig2=j8oLDEgi32JM5YTWJZX1jw&cad=rja

    "VICAS is working on a public education campaign to inform pet owners of what tail docking is,
    why it is not necessary and why they should request an un-docked dog when purchasing a
    puppy. “Tail docking is a painful, unnecessary act, which poses a significant health risk to the
    puppy” he said. “Docking serves no purpose for the dog when done for only cosmetic or
    prophylactic reasons. Also, many people who buy a pup do not know how it has been docked
    and express surprise and shock when the circumstances under which the procedure is carried
    out is explained to them. It is clear on questioning that the vast majority of such owners would
    have preferred if their puppy‟s tail had been left as it was when born”


  • #90
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    No according to the Vet report it is usually done with a Stanley knife & no anaesthetic. There is an update here:

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.veterinaryireland.ie%2FLinks%2FPDFs%2FPress%2520Releases%2F2009%2FPress%2520Release%2520on%2520Tail%2520Docking%252027.3.2009.pdf&rct=j&q=docking%20ireland%20vets%20&ei=SEvXTK69DpbKjAfQraS_CQ&usg=AFQjCNEWGt_Mq10W7ititKGy92cJCOkQ9w&sig2=j8oLDEgi32JM5YTWJZX1jw&cad=rja

    I know noone who does it that way.


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  • #91
    pokertalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    I know noone who does it that way.
    yeah i believe that is the most common way.i know there is a few breeders on this forum .it would be interesting to hear from them if they dock tails or not and what way they do it


  • #92
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    Yes.

    The law does not bar it.

    And upon reading those guidelines, the Veterinary Ireland position does not bar their members outright either.

    It does. To quote:


    "Furthermore and as indicated in this article the Veterinary Council of Ireland has specifically confirmed that any act of tail docking (except for therapeutic reason) performed by a registered Veterinary Practitioner would be deemed as unethical. In particular it was confirmed that tail docking for so-called ‘prophylactic’ reasons is considered unethical.

    Therefore, should a Veterinary Practitioner perform such an act, they would be in breach of the Guide to Professional Behaviour and would thus be open to disciplinary action by the Veterinary Council."


  • #93
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    pokertalk wrote: »
    yeah i believe that is the most common way.i know there is a few breeders on this forum .it would be interesting to hear from them if they dock tails or not and what way they do it

    I do it a different way, there is no knife, and no blood.


  • #94
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    It does. To quote:


    "Furthermore and as indicated in this article the Veterinary Council of Ireland has specifically confirmed that any act of tail docking (except for therapeutic reason) performed by a registered Veterinary Practitioner would be deemed as unethical. In particular it was confirmed that tail docking for so-called ‘prophylactic’ reasons is considered unethical.

    Therefore, should a Veterinary Practitioner perform such an act, they would be in breach of the Guide to Professional Behaviour and would thus be open to disciplinary action by the Veterinary Council."

    "...open to disciplinary action" is the operative term.

    It is not an absolute.


  • #95
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    I do it a different way, there is no knife, and no blood.

    You will be telling us that there is no pain as well. So who is right, you or the Vets ?.

    To quote again:

    "In general when a non-vet performs this act they use no anaesthesia or pain relief. It would be unlikely that they adequately prepare and disinfect the surgical site or use sterile instruments and surgical gloves/drapes etc. Obviously there is no professional aftercare or provision for antibiotic therapy should an infection set in.

    Usually a knife is used to cut the tail at a point considered ‘acceptable’ by the breeder. A Stanley knife is often used but commonly a ‘crushing/cutting’ device such as pliers is used. Less commonly a rubber band is applied around the tail thus cutting off the blood supply to the part of the tail distal to the band which then dies and falls off in several days
    to a few weeks."


  • #96
    pokertalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    I do it a different way, there is no knife, and no blood.
    what way do you do it. an alastic band??
    what dogs do you breed


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  • #97
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    "...open to disciplinary action" is the operative term.

    It is not an absolute.

    Unethical is. If you had read through this thread you would know that I specifically asked my Vet. She assured me that any Vet found docking would be in serious grief.

    Anyway you do it yourself so why would you be concerned about a Vet ?.


  • #98
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    You will be telling us that there is no pain as well. So who is right, you or the Vets ?.

    Do you enjoy putting words in peoples' mouths?
    Discodog wrote: »
    To quote again:

    "In general when a non-vet performs this act they use no anaesthesia or pain relief. It would be unlikely that they adequately prepare and disinfect the surgical site or use sterile instruments and surgical gloves/drapes etc. Obviously there is no professional aftercare or provision for antibiotic therapy should an infection set in.

    Usually a knife is used to cut the tail at a point considered ‘acceptable’ by the breeder. A Stanley knife is often used but commonly a ‘crushing/cutting’ device such as pliers is used.

    There are lots of assumptions in that passage, none of which apply, or have ever applied, to me.

    Discodog wrote: »
    Less commonly a rubber band is applied around the tail thus cutting off the blood supply to the part of the tail distal to the band which then dies and falls off in several days
    to a few weeks."

    It may be less common, but it is far less stressful and prone to infection that using a cutting implement, a method I could never use.


  • #99
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    pokertalk wrote: »
    what way do you do it. an alastic band??
    what dogs do you breed

    Yes, the tails dies after a few days and just falls off. The likelihood of infection is remote and there is never any blood.

    The pup does yelp when it is done first, but its nerve ending are not fully developed at this stage (3-5) days. The procedure takes seconds and the pup is returned to suckle from the mother immediately.

    It is clear from observation that the puppy quickly forgets about the experience.


  • #100
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Discodog wrote: »
    Unethical is. If you had read through this thread you would know that I specifically asked my Vet. She assured me that any Vet found docking would be in serious grief.

    Anyway you do it yourself so why would you be concerned about a Vet ?.


    I'm not concerned about a vet, my questions in this thread are about the laws of the land. You keep banging on about vets.


  • #101
    pokertalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    but the dog would still be in pain for the duration of this process??


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