Jack Russell Puppies - Tail Docking thoughts???

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Yes.

The law does not bar it.

And upon reading those guidelines, the Veterinary Ireland position does not bar their members outright either.

It does. To quote:


"Furthermore and as indicated in this article the Veterinary Council of Ireland has specifically confirmed that any act of tail docking (except for therapeutic reason) performed by a registered Veterinary Practitioner would be deemed as unethical. In particular it was confirmed that tail docking for so-called ‘prophylactic’ reasons is considered unethical.

Therefore, should a Veterinary Practitioner perform such an act, they would be in breach of the Guide to Professional Behaviour and would thus be open to disciplinary action by the Veterinary Council."

kaiser sauze

pokertalk wrote: »

yeah i believe that is the most common way.i know there is a few breeders on this forum .it would be interesting to hear from them if they dock tails or not and what way they do it

I do it a different way, there is no knife, and no blood.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

It does. To quote:


"Furthermore and as indicated in this article the Veterinary Council of Ireland has specifically confirmed that any act of tail docking (except for therapeutic reason) performed by a registered Veterinary Practitioner would be deemed as unethical. In particular it was confirmed that tail docking for so-called ‘prophylactic’ reasons is considered unethical.

Therefore, should a Veterinary Practitioner perform such an act, they would be in breach of the Guide to Professional Behaviour and would thus be open to disciplinary action by the Veterinary Council."

"...open to disciplinary action" is the operative term.

It is not an absolute.

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I do it a different way, there is no knife, and no blood.

You will be telling us that there is no pain as well. So who is right, you or the Vets ?.

To quote again:

"In general when a non-vet performs this act they use no anaesthesia or pain relief. It would be unlikely that they adequately prepare and disinfect the surgical site or use sterile instruments and surgical gloves/drapes etc. Obviously there is no professional aftercare or provision for antibiotic therapy should an infection set in.

Usually a knife is used to cut the tail at a point considered ‘acceptable’ by the breeder. A Stanley knife is often used but commonly a ‘crushing/cutting’ device such as pliers is used. Less commonly a rubber band is applied around the tail thus cutting off the blood supply to the part of the tail distal to the band which then dies and falls off in several days
to a few weeks."

pokertalk

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I do it a different way, there is no knife, and no blood.

what way do you do it. an alastic band??
what dogs do you breed

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

"...open to disciplinary action" is the operative term.

It is not an absolute.

Unethical is. If you had read through this thread you would know that I specifically asked my Vet. She assured me that any Vet found docking would be in serious grief.

Anyway you do it yourself so why would you be concerned about a Vet ?.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

You will be telling us that there is no pain as well. So who is right, you or the Vets ?.

Do you enjoy putting words in peoples' mouths?

Discodog wrote: »

To quote again:

"In general when a non-vet performs this act they use no anaesthesia or pain relief. It would be unlikely that they adequately prepare and disinfect the surgical site or use sterile instruments and surgical gloves/drapes etc. Obviously there is no professional aftercare or provision for antibiotic therapy should an infection set in.

Usually a knife is used to cut the tail at a point considered ‘acceptable’ by the breeder. A Stanley knife is often used but commonly a ‘crushing/cutting’ device such as pliers is used.

There are lots of assumptions in that passage, none of which apply, or have ever applied, to me.

Discodog wrote: »

Less commonly a rubber band is applied around the tail thus cutting off the blood supply to the part of the tail distal to the band which then dies and falls off in several days
to a few weeks."

It may be less common, but it is far less stressful and prone to infection that using a cutting implement, a method I could never use.

kaiser sauze

pokertalk wrote: »

what way do you do it. an alastic band??
what dogs do you breed

Yes, the tails dies after a few days and just falls off. The likelihood of infection is remote and there is never any blood.

The pup does yelp when it is done first, but its nerve ending are not fully developed at this stage (3-5) days. The procedure takes seconds and the pup is returned to suckle from the mother immediately.

It is clear from observation that the puppy quickly forgets about the experience.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

Unethical is. If you had read through this thread you would know that I specifically asked my Vet. She assured me that any Vet found docking would be in serious grief.

Anyway you do it yourself so why would you be concerned about a Vet ?.

I'm not concerned about a vet, my questions in this thread are about the laws of the land. You keep banging on about vets.

pokertalk

but the dog would still be in pain for the duration of this process??

pokertalk

i have fallin asleep on my arm a few times and when i wake up its a horrible feeling cant imagine how bad it would be after 2 weeks

kaiser sauze

pokertalk wrote: »

but the dog would still be in pain for the duration of this process??

Uhm, the process takes seconds.

pokertalk

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Uhm, the process takes seconds.

the elastic band process takes seconds/?

pokertalk

can you explain the whole procedure to me.like what kind of band and how tite .im just interested to know
what dogs to you breed

Cherry Blossom

pokertalk wrote: »

can you explain the whole procedure to me.like what kind of band and how tite .im just interested to know
what dogs to you breed

I don't think it's a good idea to explain to the world how to dock tails using an elastic band.

kaiser sauze

pokertalk wrote: »

the elastic band process takes seconds/?

Yes.

I will not explain it here, I am sure you know a person/Vet who could refer you to someone who does it this way.

angelfire9

I still don't understand why anyone would WANT to dock a dog's tail?

Maybe Kaiser Sauze can explain his rationale?

I have seen lots of breeds, JRT's and Boxers in particular, with docked tails and undocked tails and I have to say the undocked versions are far nicer looking dogs IMHO

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Yes.

I will not explain it here, I am sure you know a person/Vet who could refer you to someone who does it this way.

Of course it doesn't take seconds. It "works" by blocking the blood supply & killing the tail. It is no different to putting a tight band around your finger, only a finger is not as big as a tail. It would hurt just as much & take just as long.

I think that it would be possible to secure a cruelty conviction on anyone who used this method. It's not going to be difficult to prove that the animal experienced unnecessary suffering.

It would be interesting if an owner of one of your pups is questioned over where they got their puppy docked. They might take to a Vet say for vaccination & the Vet asks who docked it.

I have just received an email from one of the main advertising sites for dogs. They are considering introducing a ban on ads for docked puppies. They were unaware that Vets consider this as cruelty & mutilation. Something that no business wishes to be associated with.

The IKC may have to take a position because it is possible that UK Vets will refuse to attend any shows featuring docked dogs & the Irish Vets could follow suit.

angelfire9

Discodog wrote: »

The IKC may have to take a position because it is possible that UK Vets will refuse to attend any shows featuring docked dogs & the Irish Vets could follow suit.

Hang on.... if the IKC doesn't want the tails docked for showing purposes then why are people docking them?
I in my naivety (?sp) thought that the tails were being docked so that they conform to breeding "standards"

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

Of course it doesn't take seconds. It "works" by blocking the blood supply & killing the tail. It is no different to putting a tight band around your finger, only a finger is not as big as a tail. It would hurt just as much & take just as long.

I think that it would be possible to secure a cruelty conviction on anyone who used this method. It's not going to be difficult to prove that the animal experienced unnecessary suffering.

It would be interesting if an owner of one of your pups is questioned over where they got their puppy docked. They might take to a Vet say for vaccination & the Vet asks who docked it.

I have just received an email from one of the main advertising sites for dogs. They are considering introducing a ban on ads for docked puppies. They were unaware that Vets consider this as cruelty & mutilation. Something that no business wishes to be associated with.

The IKC may have to take a position because it is possible that UK Vets will refuse to attend any shows featuring docked dogs & the Irish Vets could follow suit.

The pain is temporary, I'll bet you have never seen the procedure done this way? There is never any blood or risk of infection and it is a much easier experience on the pup than getting it chopped (which I would never consider doing). You are also failing to acknowledge when it is done, in the first 3-5 days, when nerve endings still haven't reached peak sensitivity. Anyone who does it outside of this timeframe is guilty of cruelty.

I love your talk about securing convictions, if it were so easy it would have been done long ago. There is lots of evidence out there and it would be easy to join the dots and make a case. Why has this not been done?

I bet you love the sound of your voice in real life?

I have never had a word said to me about the puppies I have bred, never a remark, never a comment. My own vet, whom I have an exceptional relationship with, does not, and will not, dock tails or dewclaws, but by the same token he does not refuse to vaccinate and microchip my puppies or threaten me with any kind of action. If he felt I was causing undue suffering to the pups, I also know for a fact he would not treat them and would report me.

Are you trying to tell me that every customer I have dealt with over the year is an 'inhuman monster, like me'?

Get over yourself, seriously.

kaiser sauze

angelfire9 wrote: »

I still don't understand why anyone would WANT to dock a dog's tail?

Maybe Kaiser Sauze can explain his rationale?

I have seen lots of breeds, JRT's and Boxers in particular, with docked tails and undocked tails and I have to say the undocked versions are far nicer looking dogs IMHO

I have always docked my breeds tail, simple.

I do not notice any change in customer attitudes, no change in demand and no comments being passed.

funkyjebus

whats the point in docking you pups tail. inless they are working dogs it effect is for astectics only. why stop ther why not get their paws taken off to, might look good, perhaps a boob job for the bitchs.

Fact remains, that for whatever useless reason you do this, despite the low pain levels at that age, you are dismembering and hurting an animal for not actual purpose, except for an outdated ideal you have in you head.

kaiser sauze

funkyjebus wrote: »

whats the point in docking you pups tail. inless they are working dogs it effect is for astectics only. why stop ther why not get their paws taken off to, might look good, perhaps a boob job for the bitchs.

Fact remains, that for whatever useless reason you do this, despite the low pain levels at that age, you are dismembering and hurting an animal for not actual purpose, except for an outdated ideal you have in you head.

:rolleyes:

pawrick

as someone who used to keep dogs- I have no preference over tail docked or not. That said I never had one of my dogs docked as they didn't need it done for any good reason. I have had one which was docked before I got it but I never asked for it to be done. Tail or no tail makes no difference once the dog doesn't suffer for what someone thinks simply looks better.

funkyjebus

kaiser sauze wrote: »

:rolleyes:

we can all roll eyes, but well done to you.

would you like me to do it now and show you.

Kaiser, its a very pertinent question. while ill admit i exagerate things by lobbing off usefull limbs, the point remins which you are ignoring.

portgirl123

Just out of interest Kaiser Sauze, wat dogs do you breed?

kaiser sauze

funkyjebus wrote: »

we can all roll eyes, but well done to you.

would you like me to do it now and show you.

Kaiser, its a very pertinent question. while ill admit i exagerate things by lobbing off usefull limbs, the point remins which you are ignoring.

Thank you for admitting your example was silly.

kaiser sauze

portgirl123 wrote: »

Just out of interest Kaiser Sauze, wat dogs do you breed?

I'm not pimping my wares on this site.

funkyjebus

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Thank you for admitting your example was silly.

I never said silly, back to school for you sir. i mearly exaggerated the procedure you carry out or allow to be carried out on your aniimals despite it havoing no effect except for your or your potention buyer visual enjoyment (unless im wrong, but youve yet to state otherwise)

Given you are only caplable of making vien attempts to be witty in order to discuse your inablility or unwillingness to give me one possible reason for docking a pets tail out side of astestic appeal, i will assume that you do not possess one.

awaits failed attempt at humourous rebuttle in an attempt to avoid fair and honest question.

funkyjebus

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Thank you for admitting your example was silly.

I never said silly, back to school for you sir. I mearly exaggerated the procedure you carry out or allow to be carried out on your aniimals despite it havoing no effect except for your or your potention buyer visual enjoyment (unless im wrong, but youve yet to state otherwise)

Given you are only caplable of making vain attempts to be witty in order to discuse your inablility or unwillingness to give me one possible reason for docking a pets tail out side of astestic appeal, i will assume that you do not possess one.

awaits failed attempt at humourous rebuttle in an attempt to avoid fair and honest question.

EDIT, sorry for double posting, mobile is being a d**&