Jack Russell Puppies - Tail Docking thoughts???

SupaDupaFly

Hi all,

Just wanted to get some opinions on the subject of tail docking. I have a litter of Jack Russell Pups that are just a week old. I had decided not to get their tails docked as I think its cruel and unnatural for the dogs. However some people who had agreed to buy the dogs are now refusing to do so because they are not docked. I feel like its only right for the pups to keep their tails but people are saying I will have huge problems selling them as a result of this. What do you all think?

I don't really want to go into the pros and cons of docking as I have read huge amounts of material on the subject. I just want some honest opinions from animal lovers out there.
Thanks guys.

SupaDupa

andreac

To be honest this has been discussed over and over again in this section so you are going to open a can of worms again by asking peopls opinons again which im sure havent changed from last time it was discussed.

Just make sure you dont dock these puppies now as if they are to be docked it has to be done before they are 4 days old and as they are a week old now its far too late to dock them.

You will get plenty of people looking for pups with tails so you wont have any problem selling them.

portgirl123

good on ya. if the people dont want to buy the pups cos ur not docking the tails their lose. im sure there will be lots of lovely people out there delighted to get a pup with a lovely tail. Its so nice to start seeing lots of dif breeds with tails

SupaDupaFly

andreac wrote: »

To be honest this has been discussed over and over again in this section so you are going to open a can of worms again by asking peopls opinons again which im sure havent changed from last time it was discussed.

Just make sure you dont dock these puppies now as if they are to be docked it has to be done before they are 4 days old and as they are a week old now its far too late to dock them.

You will get plenty of people looking for pups with tails so you wont have any problem selling them.

Thanks andreac,
Not trying to open a can of worms, have read enough of the threads on here debating the matter. I more or less just want the opinions of animal lovers out there on the matter of buying pups with tails.

I just want to make sure all the pups go to good homes and to people who won't foolishly tamper with their tails at 8 weeks old.

angelfire9

If I didn't already have a slightly psycho cat and hyper 9 year old a grumpy hubby and a baby due in December I'd LOVE a JRT with a full tail I think they are gorgeous that way!

SupaDupaFly

angelfire9 wrote: »

If I didn't already have a slightly psycho cat and hyper 9 year old a grumpy hubby and a baby due in December I'd LOVE a JRT with a full tail I think they are gorgeous that way!

Good luck with the baby :-)

SupaDupaFly

portgirl123 wrote: »

good on ya. if the people dont want to buy the pups cos ur not docking the tails their lose. im sure there will be lots of lovely people out there delighted to get a pup with a lovely tail. Its so nice to start seeing lots of dif breeds with tails

Thanks, I hope there's more people out there with your great attitude.

shinikins

I love seeing dogs with their full natural tails! IMO, if the people who backed out of taking the pups did so because they wanted their tails docked, then good luck to them, they obviously didn't want the pups for the right reasons! Plenty of people out there will want a pup to love who has been left as nature intended.

Best of luck Supa!!

pokertalk

they the way any pup is born is good enough unless its a health reason.theres no actual reasons for docking a healthy dog in this day and age. plus i like them with the full tail:D

suziwalsh

Well done for not docking their tails. We need to get society out of the mind frame that dogs have to have their tails chopped off. Its mad why wouldn't you want a wagging tail?!?!?

Id say wait for homes that want them regardless of their tails

You have a big thumbs up from me and you'll probably find a lot of people also asking for them to have tails also!

TooManyDogs

Full tails all the way. I have 2 JRTs, one has a docked tail and I hate it, would love if she had a full one. The other one has a full tail because I fostered him since he was 2 days old and there was no way I was cutting off his tail. He has a great slightly curly tail and he's always wagging it.

Zapperzy

I much prefer to see dogs with full tails. Aside from the whole working issue if these pups were going to pet homes why would they need a docked tail anyways, it would just be for purely cosmetic reasons. And don't worry about finding homes for them, sounds like the person that said you'l have problems homing them with tails was just trying to guilt trip you into docking them.

lrushe

I have to say it would make no difference to me, a tail, no tail, half an ear, 3 legs, if I made the commitment to give a dog a home then that's what I would do. Look for better homes for these pups, if potenial owners can ditch them over their tails then they obviously wouldn't have been committed to them for the rest of their lives.

Tranceypoo

To be honest, if you want the pups to go to good homes, I wouldn't consider anyone who wouldn't take a pup because it didn't have a docked tail, a 'good home'

ppink

Totally agree with the above, if it is classed as mutilation by the Vets then anyone who wants it for those cosmetic purposes would not be the person I would be homing too.
The one thing to remember is that most people will not know this so you will have to inform them of the facts that it is not recommended practice now to dock tails for cosmetic purposes.

Asphyxia

I think it's horrible I have little Jack Russel mix breed and I could never be able to do it. If they didn't need the tail they wouldn't of been born with it.

wetdogsmell

i'm not trying to start an arguement, i understand some people are against tail docking but i find it funny that alot of the same people are so pro neuturing, i understand neuturing a dog for health reasons, but a lot of healthy dogs seem to be neutured just for the convienience of the owner, this is a lot more serious that tail docking, just my opinion, would like to hear your opinions

andreac

wetdogsmell wrote: »

i'm not trying to start an arguement, i understand some people are against tail docking but i find it funny that alot of the same people are so pro neuturing, i understand neuturing a dog for health reasons, but a lot of healthy dogs seem to be neutured just for the convienience of the owner, this is a lot more serious that tail docking, just my opinion, would like to hear your opinions

You cannot even compare the 2. Neutering prevents unplanned litters, and prevents certain cancers etc when they get older. Removing a tail is no where near the same and cannot even be compared to it at all.

Its not for the convenience of the owner, its for the health reasons for the dog. Its the dog that has to have the puppies and those puppies then have to be found homes for and so on. Its the dog that gets pyometra or testicular cancer and so on, so how is this relevent to being convenient for the owner??

Tranceypoo

wetdogsmell wrote: »

i'm not trying to start an arguement, i understand some people are against tail docking but i find it funny that alot of the same people are so pro neuturing, i understand neuturing a dog for health reasons, but a lot of healthy dogs seem to be neutured just for the convienience of the owner, this is a lot more serious that tail docking, just my opinion, would like to hear your opinions

I don't think that even makes sense - 'healthy dogs seem to be neutered just for the convenience of the owner'?? What so the dog is thinking 'please don't neuter me I'm dying to father/give birth to a litter of pups so I can send them off into the world to make a difference and leave my legacy behind' Huh?!!!
Actually think you ARE trying to start an argument Wetdogsmell.

dahat

Jack russells tails were docked originally for hunting purposes,going down burrows,working ditches etc.......
People have grown used to see the jack russell with a short tail.
it will take many years if not a generation to fix the problem of tail docking in all breeds.
I personally breed a type of jack russell and do get the tails docked as i have found that buyers do look for it more than a jr with a long tail.
It is each breeders preference whether to dock or not and in no way should should those who leave the tail take any high ground on those who do dock tails n vice versa.

currently it is still legal to dock tails and while it is i will continue to do so.

username123

Agree wholeheartedly with Irushe - tail, no tail, 3 legs, 1 eye, half an ear etc....none of it matters in my world, its the dog Id love, not the cosmetic appearance of the dog.

I saw a JRT with an undocked tail yesterday and he looked wonderful, very waggy.

If a potential owner made a decision based on a docked tail then shame on them, not a good home to go to imo.

ppink

wetdogsmell wrote: »

i'm not trying to start an arguement, i understand some people are against tail docking but i find it funny that alot of the same people are so pro neuturing, i understand neuturing a dog for health reasons, but a lot of healthy dogs seem to be neutured just for the convienience of the owner, this is a lot more serious that tail docking, just my opinion, would like to hear your opinions

I actually think I understand what you are saying. The way I see it is that we (humans) have become involved with dogs on this level in order to strengthen the breeds and preserve the animals. It is the reason for breed standards and for Veterinary care?
Neutering is a way of controlling indiscriminate breeding and various ailments thereby helping the dogs in the long run? Tail docking has no purpose for most dogs, it is just cosmetic.
Neutering can be viewed I suppose as convenient to the owner but in the long run it is better for the various breeds also.
It seems to be that even in wild nature man has intervened at times to preserve or protect a species.

wetdogsmell

Tranceypoo wrote: »

I don't think that even makes sense - 'healthy dogs seem to be neutered just for the convenience of the owner'?? What so the dog is thinking 'please don't neuter me I'm dying to father/give birth to a litter of pups so I can send them off into the world to make a difference and leave my legacy behind' Huh?!!!
Actually think you ARE trying to start an argument Wetdogsmell.

no i was not trying to start an aguement, what i meant was people get their dogs to undergo a medical procedure that is just to make their own life easyer, most bitches come in heat twice a year and can be mated for about two weeks each time, its not that hard to keep them separate for that long, so i think my point makes sence, i'm not asking everyone to agree with me, thats why i asked for peoples opinions

i apologise for having a different opinion to you

January

My JRT bitch had a litter of pups back in May and we didn't have their tails docked, had no problem finding homes for all of them!

The male and female both have their tails docked, but would prefer if they hadn't. I just fell in love with Star when I seen him and Buffy was a stray we took in.

If you have an ad online stress in the ad that you are not docking the tails that way you can't have people pull out if they realise it after.

Discodog

After the previous threads I had a word with my Vet. She was adamant that any Vet would be in serious grief for docking. Your decision has really helped the pups find a good home in that the people who look for docked JR's may be the sort who want them for "sport".

Hopefully the ISPCA will follow the RSPCA's lead & start questioning anyone with a docked pup.

**Vai**

Im not even reading all the replies, the answer to the original question is no, dont do it.

liquoriceall

My mother has a soft coated wheaten terrier and she has a docked tail, I always feel sorry for her because shes missing it and she often seems to bite the end of it, my mother would next time try to get one with a tail as their tail is so lovely

andreac

wetdogsmell wrote: »

no i was not trying to start an aguement, what i meant was people get their dogs to undergo a medical procedure that is just to make their own life easyer, most bitches come in heat twice a year and can be mated for about two weeks each time, its not that hard to keep them separate for that long, so i think my point makes sence, i'm not asking everyone to agree with me, thats why i asked for peoples opinions

i apologise for having a different opinion to you

Sorry, but its not to make their own life easier, its for the health and welfare of the dogs, do you not understand that?

Getting a dog neutered/spayed is far healthier in the long run and reduces cancers and conditions like pyometra which can be fatal in bitches so no, its not for the owners covenience, its for the health of the dog.

Discodog

dahat wrote: »

I personally breed a type of jack russell and do get the tails docked as i have found that buyers do look for it more than a jr with a long tail.
It is each breeders preference whether to dock or not and in no way should should those who leave the tail take any high ground on those who do dock tails n vice versa.

currently it is still legal to dock tails and while it is i will continue to do so.

Who does the docking ?. It is totally illegal for anyone other than a Vet to do it & if your Vet does it he is in breach of Irish Veterinary regulations.

SupaDupaFly

Thanks for all the great input guys, I'm glad people are changing their opinions on the whole docking situation. Hopefully the tradition will die out sooner rather than later. I'm so glad I haven't docked their tails. They are so perfect the way they are.

Glad to say I have found a lovely home for one of them today. I didn't want to start a debate on the pros and cons of docking as I stated in my original post. I ea more looking for your thoughts on having a dog with a tail as opposed to a docked stump. Thanks to all of you who have gave me feedback.

I'm in for a fun few weeks :-)
Pics to follow soon.

Supa

dahat

Discodog wrote: »

Who does the docking ?. It is totally illegal for anyone other than a Vet to do it & if your Vet does it he is in breach of Irish Veterinary regulations.

a vet.........

http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf

CreedonsDogDayc

oh cant wait to see pics!!

If I were you i'd make it a feature when advertising the pups (if you have to advertise them).

Say something along the lines of "we love these puppies like they are our own dogs, and we've made sure that they haven't come to any harm. We are against painfully removing a pups tail for cosmetic reasons, so these little babies come with a fluffy wagging tail at no extra charge!! "

By the way www.pedigreedogs.ie is an ethical breeders site for advertising on!

Vel

In future to avoid wondering if you are going to be able to sell your litter with the tails docked/undocked it might be a good idea to have good homes already lined up for any prospective pups (who know you won't be docking) before you decide to even breed your bitch, which is what responsible breeders should be doing anyway

amacachi

Prefer the full tail, my current mutt has one, makes for entertainment everytime he gets food. :pac: That said, I used to have a Jack Russell and he's next door now and the short tail does suit him, may be because he's over 18 years old and I couldn't imagine him differently though. :pac:

Discodog

dahat wrote: »

a vet.........

http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf

This is clause 8 from your link:

"8. Why not make allowances for prophylactic docking for working dogs only? Is it
not better to remove the tail as a puppy rather than leave it open to injury later in
life?

There is no scientific evidence to show that undocked working dogs damage their tails
any more than undocked non-working dogs. A seven year study at the University of
Edinburgh Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies showed insufficient evidence of
statistical significance to suggest a positive association between tail injuries and
undocked tails (Darke et al, 1985). In other words the risk of tail injury is equal in working
dogs compared to non-working dogs and thus there is no argument to say that an
exception should be made for working dogs only – all dogs whether working or not are at
equal risk to tail injury."

Clause 7 states that a Vet who docks "would be in breach
of the Guide to Professional Behaviour and would thus be open to disciplinary action by
the Veterinary Council. "

They also state that any tail docking that is not done for strictly medical reasons is mutilation & a Vet should not do it. Docking is not being taught at Vet schools any more.

Tranceypoo

dahat wrote: »

currently it is still legal to dock tails and while it is i will continue to do so.

Well, good for you dahat, many things are still 'legal', does not make them morally right.

Discodog

If his Vet refuses to dock there is another alternative & it's not nice.

From the above link:

"4. How is tail docking done in puppies?

In general when a non-vet performs this act they use no anaesthesia or pain relief.
It would be unlikely that they adequately prepare and disinfect the surgical site or use
sterile instruments and surgical gloves/drapes etc. Obviously there is no professional
aftercare or provision for antibiotic therapy should an infection set in.

Usually a knife is used to cut the tail at a point considered ‘acceptable’ by the breeder. A
Stanley knife is often used but commonly a ‘crushing/cutting’ device such as pliers is
used. Less commonly a rubber band is applied around the tail thus cutting off the blood
supply to the part of the tail distal to the band which then dies and falls off in several days
to a few weeks. "

January

SupaDupaFly wrote: »

Thanks for all the great input guys, I'm glad people are changing their opinions on the whole docking situation. Hopefully the tradition will die out sooner rather than later. I'm so glad I haven't docked their tails. They are so perfect the way they are.

Glad to say I have found a lovely home for one of them today. I didn't want to start a debate on the pros and cons of docking as I stated in my original post. I ea more looking for your thoughts on having a dog with a tail as opposed to a docked stump. Thanks to all of you who have gave me feedback.

I'm in for a fun few weeks :-)
Pics to follow soon.

Supa

Oh you really are in for a fun (and messy!) few weeks!

Post pics soon!

funkyjebus

full tails FTW.

arybvtcw0eolkf

andreac wrote: »

Its not for the convenience of the owner, its for the health reasons for the dog.

Honestly, there's not one person I know had their dogs neutured for health reasons.

Without exception everyone I know had either their dogs done to calm him down and stop him humping all around, and had their bitches done to prevent the bitch coming into season.

Regards the JTR tails, I like 'em without.

andreac

Wynter Bewildered Transmission wrote: »

Honestly, there's not one person I know had their dogs neutured for health reasons.

Without exception everyone I know had either their dogs done to calm him down and stop him humping all around, and had their bitches done to prevent the bitch coming into season.

Regards the JTR tails, I like 'em without.

In a way, doing it to stop them coming into season is still a little bit for health reasons as a season is risky for the bitch in case she got accidentally mated with a dog and got pregnant. Stopping a bitch coming into season by neutering reduces risks of pyometra and phantom pregnancies too.

Discodog

Wynter Bewildered Transmission wrote: »

Honestly, there's not one person I know had their dogs neutured for health reasons.

Without exception everyone I know had either their dogs done to calm him down and stop him humping all around, and had their bitches done to prevent the bitch coming into season.

Regards the JTR tails, I like 'em without.

I got a rescue that had not been spayed. She ended up with a dangerously malignant breast tumour that would of killed her had I not of spotted it. Had she been spayed, she is now, the chances of getting this type of tumour would of been less than 5 %. It is the most prevalent & fatal cancer amongst non spayed dogs.

Owning a non spayed bitch is a nightmare in Ireland due the number of males that are allowed to wander. I know someone who put up a 6ft chain link fence to keep their bitch from getting out & even that didn't stop a male dog from getting in.

Is your personally liking for docked tails on JRT's worth, what the Vets refer to as mutilation ?. Is it OK for humans to chop bits off a dog to suit our personal taste ?.

sionnaic

I much much prefer dogs with full undocked tails...in my opinion tail docking is completely wrong when carried out for cosmetic reasons. Dogs with undocked tails look instantly friendlier especially the bigger breeds (look at pics of undocked Rotties for example)

Anyway who in their right mind wouldn't want to see their dog's tail wagging at top speed when they catch sight of them? It's a lovely sight that never fails to cheer me up.

A tail can also tell you what the dog's state of mind is - happy, scared, nervous, watchful, interested - and is also an important tool for communication with other dogs. Just watch 2 non-docked dogs interacting to see what I mean.

OP I'm really really glad you're not going to dock the puppies

dahat wrote: »

I personally breed a type of jack russell and do get the tails docked as i have found that buyers do look for it more than a jr with a long tail.

Dahat - did you ever think to reconsider the type of people you sell to or do you regard dog breeding a purely commercial enterprise, in the same why others buy and sell cars, or make and sell furniture. Until people like you stop the supply of docked puppies, the market for them will never dry up. I'm curious as to why breeders don't try to educate their buyers on the nasty realities of tail docking. Anyone who chooses to subject a puppy to the horrors of tail docking, knowing full well the pain and psychological damage it causes should not be allowed the privilege of pet ownership, in my opinion.

dahat wrote: »

It is each breeders preference whether to dock or not and in no way should should those who leave the tail take any high ground on those who do dock tails n vice versa.

I disagree, those who choose not to dock have every right to take the moral high ground over those who choose to cause a young and defenseless creature untold pain for no other reason than to conform to some outdated and suspect aesthetic reasons.

dahat wrote: »

currently it is still legal to dock tails and while it is i will continue to do so.

As another poster has already pointed out, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. Until relatively recently it was legal to cane a child, didn't make it right though did it? Thankfully that particular wrong is now illegal.

Discodog

OP I would stress the benefits of full tails to any prospective owner in that they will get a puppy that has not suffered unnecessary trauma. Explain to them that it will be much easier to gauge it's emotions & it will be able to "talk" more easily to other dogs so there will be less chance of fights.

You can also tell them that docking is on the way out & future animal legislation will ban it. Also they will have the pleasure of people complimenting them for having a dog the way that nature intended.

Graces7

Inflicting needless pain on a wee pup?

Our "russet" ( JRT/Basset cross; had the owners of the JRT who dumped her when she was in pup bothered to spay her?) talks with her tail; three speeds and directions and a delight to see.

It isn;t at base re personal preference is it? Mutilate your own body if you wish but leave the wee ones alone, please.

wetdogsmell

andreac wrote: »

Sorry, but its not to make their own life easier, its for the health and welfare of the dogs, do you not understand that?

Getting a dog neutered/spayed is far healthier in the long run and reduces cancers and conditions like pyometra which can be fatal in bitches so no, its not for the owners covenience, its for the health of the dog.

i understand what you are saying about the cancer risk but i would say most people do it to prevent unwanted litters, which in MY OPINION is for the owners convienience, as they could get the same result from simpley seperating their dogs while in heat

i am not anti neutering, if you wish to do this with your dog thats your buisness,

my point was i thought it was a little bit hypocritical alot of people being so anti docking when they think nothing of a dog having organs removed to stop dogs getting pregnant when they could easily prevent the pregnancy with a little effort of separating them

not forgeting about the cancer, but i have had large amounts of dogs all my life and only lost one bitch from womb problems, so i don't think its as common and as big a risk

pitbull_fanatic

bad question bud. i didnt read any posts on this topic because of what another thread turned out like but if some one dont want to buy the pups off ya with long tails then tell them...fine. as for selling being more difficult, i wont lie to ya it will. but not too much. my buddy sold a litter of 10 rottweillers in the last 2 weeks with long tails. he got huge interest in them. dont let anyone push ya into doing wat ya dont want to do. they just full of empty threats to put preassure on ya. they will sell with long tails.

pitbull_fanatic

Discodog wrote: »

Is your personally liking for docked tails on JRT's worth, what the Vets refer to as mutilation ?. Is it OK for humans to chop bits off a dog to suit our personal taste ?.

i cant believe you are on this thread as well saying the exact same things?!! give it a rest and lighten up. Makikomi was just giving her opinion. your acting like some kind of a cyberbully to people on this forum. u and your "posse"

DBCyc

I can't see any good reason to dock a dogs tail. Just my opinion, I hate docked tails. I think that it is unnecessary and looks terrible.

Is it cruel not to get a dog neutered when they you have no intention of breeding?. Seeing that the dog will never have a chance to satisfy any built up sexual urges?! (apart from on your leg maybe )

For that reason, in addition to the health benefits outlined by vets, would neutering your dog not be the for the best?

arybvtcw0eolkf

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

Makikomi was just giving her opinion. your acting like some kind of a cyberbully to people on this forum. u and your "posse"

I'm a bloke. And don't worry, I wouldn't be bullied by anyone.

Thanks all the same.

pitbull_fanatic

haha! sorry bud. i ment to say their but her took over. it wasnt jus u i was on about though. its alot of people.haha! i'm in stitches here! haha! sorry!