Dole claimants may have to work in community

Chaotic_Forces

stiffler123 wrote: »

Yes to looking for jobs, no to courses. I have a tv and film degree already, this is my preferred field but I will take any job I can get as tv work is hard to get and rare. Just saying I think the scheme is a good idea and I will take part if possble, didn't need twenty questions thanks.

There you go. You got some things to do with your time and you don't want any more. Good luck in your "preferred field". I can only inmagine how the dole will use your fine skills and what great things you'll bring to picking up rubbish.:rolleyes:

You should get a course instead of waiting on this thing so you can pick rubbish up, at least you#ll get something good from it.

stiffler123

I'm only interested in filmmaking, taking a chlidcare course or carpentry course just doesn't interest me. I am actively seeking work every day but if nothing comes up, I would absolutely "pick up rubbish" or work with old people. It beats being bored and helping out the community is never a bad thing.

Chaotic_Forces

stiffler123 wrote: »

I'm only interested in filmmaking, taking a chlidcare course or carpentry course just doesn't interest me. I am actively seeking work every day but if nothing comes up, I would absolutely "pick up rubbish" or work with old people. It beats being bored and helping out the community is never a bad thing.

Who mentioned anything about old people?

So rather than improve your skills, you'd rather do community service?

mickydoomsux

How are people even suggesting that this is a bad idea?

No one should get anything for free. And the argument that it's 'your money' doesn't work. If that was the case you should only get back the amount of tax you paid every week while you were working. What about people who never worked or people who didn't pay much tax?

I can see how people are saying that scummers will simply get out of it with a sick note or just by being a nuisance on the job but then they should be put on the lowest rate of welfare. If you're fit to find work, you're fit to do this scheme.

If i was unemployed in the morning i'd have no problem particpating. It's only about 4 hours a day FFS.

Chaotic_Forces

mickydoomsux wrote: »

How are people even suggesting that this is a bad idea?

No one should get anything for free. And the argument that it's 'your money' doesn't work. If that was the case you should only get back the amount of tax you paid every week while you were working. What about people who never worked or people who didn't pay much tax?

I can see how people are saying that scummers will simply get out of it with a sick note or just by being a nuisance on the job but then they should be put on the lowest rate of welfare. If you're fit to find work, you're fit to do this scheme.

If i was unemployed in the morning i'd have no problem particpating. It's only about 4 hours a day FFS.

But 4 hours of working as though you're in a chaingang is still 4 hours of working as though you're in a chaingang.

Actually the argument does work. JSB is what people are entitled to that paid tax credits. JSA is the dodgy area.

Oh I'd like to add that it's not about being fit to work, it's about being fit to work fulltime which is going against what the dole makes you agree to when you sign up (unless you've a good reason why you can't take fulltime work).

It's already been stated that people in this scheme won't be classed as unemployed so the unployment figures go down, givernmenmt wins the contest for making everyone everywhere but Ireland happy.

30H!3

mickydoomsux wrote: »

How are people even suggesting that this is a bad idea?

No one should get anything for free. And the argument that it's 'your money' doesn't work. If that was the case you should only get back the amount of tax you paid every week while you were working.

Er, you might want to have a read up on the concept of social insurance. Nothing to do with tax.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/irish-social-welfare-system/social-insurance-prsi/social_insurance_in_ireland

In particular the "work and social insurance" section.

monkeypants

stiffler123 wrote: »

carpentry course just doesn't interest me

I'd love to do a course in carpentry or plumbing, it would be very interesting. I thought FAS would have loads of these, but they don't. The ones they do offer are aimed at people who have already made their way through an apprenticeship, a refresher course. Fair enough. People who've put time into learning a skill already should be helped finish.

I've recently been offered a couple of courses, but they're next week when I'm doing my charity walk and I can't accept the places. I'm free 51 weeks of the year and they schedule two courses that I've been waiting for on the one week of the year that I can't make it. Gutted. But now I've been offered a place on a course the following week.

I have no objection to doing work, with a few conditions. It can't interfere with FAS courses that I've asked for, whenever they arrive. It can't interfere with my job hunting or my OU course when that starts. It's got to be something interesting. I don't mind if it's manual, but as long as it's something that I haven't done before, something that I can learn from. No made-up, busy-work. I have no problem keeping myself busy.

guineapig1975

mickydoomsux wrote: »

How are people even suggesting that this is a bad idea?

No one should get anything for free. And the argument that it's 'your money' doesn't work. If that was the case you should only get back the amount of tax you paid every week while you were working. What about people who never worked or people who didn't pay much tax?

I can see how people are saying that scummers will simply get out of it with a sick note or just by being a nuisance on the job but then they should be put on the lowest rate of welfare. If you're fit to find work, you're fit to do this scheme.

If i was unemployed in the morning i'd have no problem particpating. It's only about 4 hours a day FFS.

I can see why people think it's a good idea but have you actually thought about why it's a good idea?

Have you thought about what it means for freedom in this country?

Have you thought about how at least half of the people on the dole are relatively new additions to the welfare system and not scroungers?

Have you thought about the fact that any say you have in your life is now taken away when you become unemployed?

Have you thought about the fact that most people on the dole are on the dole because there are NO JOBS available? It's not that they don't want to work, they simply cannot. And anyone who says that there are always jobs if you are willing to work, is obviously feeling quite safe and secure in theirs.

If you want to know more about this scheme (and isn't it odd that there are so few details?) email O'Cuiv's office here:
info@eamonocuiv.ie

Register your opinion. Whether it's pro or anti this proposed scheme. Let him know what you think. And ask for details!

Think people! Use your brains! It's the only thing they can't take away from us.

Chaotic_Forces

monkeypants wrote: »

I'd love to do a course in carpentry or plumbing, it would be very interesting. I thought FAS would have loads of these, but they don't. The ones they do offer are aimed at people who have already made their way through an apprenticeship, a refresher course. Fair enough. People who've put time into learning a skill already should be helped finish.

I've recently been offered a couple of courses, but they're next week when I'm doing my charity walk and I can't accept the places. I'm free 51 weeks of the year and they schedule two courses that I've been waiting for on the one week of the year that I can't make it. Gutted. But now I've been offered a place on a course the following week.

I have no objection to doing work, with a few conditions. It can't interfere with FAS courses that I've asked for, whenever they arrive. It can't interfere with my job hunting or my OU course when that starts. It's got to be something interesting. I don't mind if it's manual, but as long as it's something that I haven't done before, something that I can learn from. No made-up, busy-work. I have no problem keeping myself busy.

You'll be hard pressed to find a course like that. You'd need to find someone else to take you on as an aprentice. Yet FÁS doesn't have a list. Though the master has to be registered with FÁS.:P

Wompa1

Cleaning up litter would be a good one.
The after school services would need a qualified person there as a mediary.
Helping at animal shelters
Teaching computer skills to elderly people

That kind of thing. It would be great if they could do a skills matrix of large samples and maybe get those people to lead small projects or teach others. Although like with any which way they do this it could see people losing their jobs from this taking them...

Chaotic_Forces

Wompa1 wrote: »

Cleaning up litter would be a good one.
The after school services would need a qualified person there as a mediary.
Helping at animal shelters
Teaching computer skills to elderly people

That kind of thing. It would be great if they could do a skills matrix of large samples and maybe get those people to lead small projects or teach others. Although like with any which way they do this it could see people losing their jobs from this taking them...

Teaching computer skills = learning how to teach, great!
Healping at animal shelters = learning how to work with animals, great!
After school things = learning how to work with kids, great!

Picking up rubbish = learning... good work ethic?

The idea is to help people, not make it more likely they'll stay on the dole.

stiffler123

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Teaching computer skills = learning how to teach, great!
Healping at animal shelters = learning how to work with animals, great!
After school things = learning how to work with kids, great!

Picking up rubbish = learning... good work ethic?

The idea is to help people, not make it more likely they'll stay on the dole.

Ok I think I finally see your point. But we don't know for sure what the scheme will entail yet. It may be picking up rubbish, but it may be something more productive. And anyway, even if it is picking up rubbish, if some long time dolers who have no intention of getting a job or have never worked have to do it, then they may realize that working isn't as hard as it seems and may be more inclined to get a job.

ultain

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

You need to available to take up full time work unless you have a reason. And no, "helping the poor homeless people get a home" is not a reason.:rolleyes:

Well smart arse..it was working for charity that led me to becoming a counsellor.

Chaotic_Forces

stiffler123 wrote: »

Ok I think I finally see your point. But we don't know for sure what the scheme will entail yet. It may be picking up rubbish, but it may be something more productive. And anyway, even if it is picking up rubbish, if some long time dolers who have no intention of getting a job or have never worked have to do it, then they may realize that working isn't as hard as it seems and may be more inclined to get a job.

You've got two types od long term users as I see it. The bums that just don't really need/want a job and are fine on it. Then you've got the ones that are actual making a career out of it so to speak. They'll manage to get out of it.

As for working... you do realize the jobs in this country (good ones, not peddling things door to door or being a chugger) are pretty much impossible to find?

ultain wrote: »

Well smart arse..it was working for charity that led me to becoming a counsellor.

That was more an attack on the dole. They don't count charity work as a legit reason. But since we're being petty... you missed a space after "..."

Wompa1

stiffler123 wrote: »

Ok I think I finally see your point. But we don't know for sure what the scheme will entail yet. It may be picking up rubbish, but it may be something more productive. And anyway, even if it is picking up rubbish, if some long time dolers who have no intention of getting a job or have never worked have to do it, then they may realize that working isn't as hard as it seems and may be more inclined to get a job.

Yeah, imagine the longer you claim the dole the worse the job they assign you is. You could be teaching computer skills one day, shovelling sh!t the next day until one day they make you a moderator on Boards :O Joking!

Chaotic_Forces

Wompa1 wrote: »

Yeah, imagine the longer you claim the dole the worse the job they assign you is. You could be teaching computer skills one day, shovelling sh!t the next day until one day they make you a moderator on Boards :O Joking!

I doubt your entire post was joking. I think the problem isn't that there are "bad" jobs. Just that the jobs people are going to have to do might not lead anywhere. I think you should be forced to take training or do a course or something. Not do some work thing where you might be learning basically nothing.

30H!3

I think they should be made pick up litter with their teeth and clean good honest tax-payers toilets for 12 hours per day/7 days a week. Lazy scroungers.

Chaotic_Forces

30H!3 wrote: »

I think they should be made pick up litter with their teeth and clean good honest tax-payers toilets for 12 hours per day/7 days a week. Lazy scroungers.

I pay my taxes, it's called VAT. Do I get people to clean my toilets?

guineapig1975

30H!3 wrote: »

I think they should be made pick up litter with their teeth and clean good honest tax-payers toilets for 12 hours per day/7 days a week. Lazy scroungers.

Are you merely being facaetious or are you actually serious?

Does it not occur to you that since the recession started, nearly 200,000 people have signed on the dole? Were they not "good honest tax-payers" until that point?

I really hope you're joking because if not your comment is smug to the nth degree.

Pepe LeFrits

mickydoomsux wrote: »

How are people even suggesting that this is a bad idea?

No one should get anything for free. And the argument that it's 'your money' doesn't work. If that was the case you should only get back the amount of tax you paid every week while you were working. What about people who never worked or people who didn't pay much tax?

I can see how people are saying that scummers will simply get out of it with a sick note or just by being a nuisance on the job but then they should be put on the lowest rate of welfare. If you're fit to find work, you're fit to do this scheme.

If i was unemployed in the morning i'd have no problem particpating. It's only about 4 hours a day FFS.

Seems counter-intuitive to me to increase the size of the work-force when there's already a job shortage, it'd just further stifle the creation of real jobs. What company is going to hire a cleaner/data entry clerk/whatever and pay them the going rate if they can get one from the dole-queue for nothing?

drunkmonkey

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

What company is going to hire a cleaner/data entry clerk/whatever and pay them the going rate if they can get one from the dole-queue for nothing?

That won't happen, these can't be real jobs there giving them. They'll be jobs that don't exist in the paid world because it wouldn't make any sense to pay anyone to do them because of our high minimum wage.
It would be fantastic for business if it worked like you said but there would be a lot more people out of Jobs but a lot of happy business owners with free staff.

Chaotic_Forces

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That won't happen, these can't be real jobs there giving them. They'll be jobs that don't exist in the paid world because it wouldn't make any sense to pay anyone to do them because of our high minimum wage.
It would be fantastic for business if it worked like you said but there would be a lot more people out of Jobs but a lot of happy business owners with free staff.

Work placement programmes exist already. Saw some on FÁS for a shoeshop clerk...

CorkMan

simtouch wrote: »

If i was really unemployed this actually could threaten peoples jobs so i am sure you get my point at this stage, leave the unemployed alone as they could offer to do someone's job for €210.00 a week and i would not like it to be mine. Live and let live it could be us sooner than we think.

Hope the position of Taeisoach is up for grabs.

nachoman

mickydoomsux wrote: »

If i was unemployed in the morning i'd have no problem particpating. It's only about 4 hours a day FFS.

Yes but does that include coffee breaks?, and what kind of coffee? decaffe or naturally roasted beans? - It's important I think that when we're approached to do this voluteering that we first of all stipulate clearly and concisely the type of brew that should be prepared for us on the designated coffee break.

bryaner

nachoman wrote: »

Yes but does that include coffee breaks?, and what kind of coffee? decaffe or naturally roasted beans? - It's important I think that when we're approached to do this voluteering that we first of all stipulate clearly and concisely the type of brew that should be prepared for us on the designated coffee break.

Lol

d'NObodyspecial

Lone Stone wrote: »

I think it would be a good thing but it would have to be everyone on the dole it wouldnt work if it only applied a few. It would be goood if the work was community based like setting up youth center's or that kind of thing being on the dole should not mean you have to work a job that is perceived by meny as degrading and demoralising what good is that going to do anyone. People on the dole are having a hard enough time as it is.

...better yet, If they really are serious about this program why not use it to influence some greater good for the future of the country like renewable energy projects or mass transportation projects.

I'm sure there are newly graduated mechanical/civil/industrial engineers, builders, computer networking technicians, and scientists that would jump at the chance to add a government project to their CV... and how many companies afterward/ during would refuse an interview to these people that have been either trained on the job or offered their time and experience to something that has reshaped the future of industry in Ireland.

Yeah, maybe i'm dreaming that the Gov't would ever do anything that would actually be helpful to this economy, but I gotsta keep hope alive!:o

Chaotic_Forces

d'NObodyspecial wrote: »

...better yet, If they really are serious about this program why not use it to influence some greater good for the future of the country like renewable energy projects or mass transportation projects.

I'm sure there are newly graduated mechanical/civil/industrial engineers, builders, computer networking technicians, and scientists that would jump at the chance to add a government project to their CV... and how many companies afterward/ during would refuse an interview to these people that have been either trained on the job or offered their time and experience to something that has reshaped the future of industry in Ireland.

Yeah, maybe i'm dreaming that the Gov't would ever do anything that would actually be helpful to this economy, but I gotsta keep hope alive!:o

Er... you realize boards.IE is for Ireland, right? This isn't some other country, it's Ireland. Where we lack good ideas from the government.:D

starbelgrade

IMPORTANT NOTICE

I have heard from a very reliable source, that this scheme - as it was announced in the media - is not actually going ahead in the form that it was first touted.

Instead, Minister Eamon O'Cuiv is going to announce an amended version of the Rural Social Scheme in it's place.

-Trek-

starbelgrade wrote: »

IMPORTANT NOTICE

I have heard from a very reliable source, that this scheme - as it was announced in the media - is not actually going ahead in the form that it was first touted.

Instead, Minister Eamon O'Cuiv is going to announce an amended version of the Rural Social Scheme in it's place.

Will the details be announced in the Tuam Herald again?

guineapig1975

starbelgrade wrote: »

IMPORTANT NOTICE

I have heard from a very reliable source, that this scheme - as it was announced in the media - is not actually going ahead in the form that it was first touted.

Instead, Minister Eamon O'Cuiv is going to announce an amended version of the Rural Social Scheme in it's place.

I think you're probably right. I emailed O'Cuiv about ten times, demanding details for the scheme that they were proposing. I got one very snotty reply from O'Cuiv himself which said:

"A chara

I accept what you say about yourself and your partner. However 18
years of community work, constant contact with unemployed people and
medical evidence shows you are more the exception than the rule.

Mise le meas

Éamon Ó Cuív TD
Minister for Social Protection"
I emailed again, one more demanding details and finally got a generic reply that said (and I quote from the PDF copy of the letter they posted to my address and then emailed me):

"These programmes transferred to the Dept of Social Protection on 1st September 2010 at which time work commenced on expanding the programmes. You will appreciated that considerable work will be required by the Department before any new arrangements can be finalised, inluding negotiations with the Department of Finance, Trade Unions and those Community Organisations that will be at the forefront of providing additional employment opportunities.

Details of any new arrangements will be made available when they are finalised and the positions and the positions available will be publicly advertised through the media, FAS and Local Development Companies."

In other words, they haven't a clue what they're doing, haven't got any details and have no idea when it will be implemented.

Again, another example of the all mouth and no trousers attitude of the Government.

Anyone who is outraged at the way this scheme has been announced followed by the subsequent lack of detail should email O'Cuiv and get their point of view registered. If nothing else, it'll annoy O'Cuiv. Email address is: info@eamonocuiv.ie