Analogue Switchoff - Public Awareness & Help Scheme

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

It is a little too definitive to say not ever.

That's what she said. It was very busy, and she did appear to know little other than her script. I was hoping for better. [Oooops, that sounds like Sky!]

Elmo

The Cush wrote: »

Either she didn't know (as watty said) or didn't care or maybe just didn't want to be there

What we do know is
- When Saorview:Brian was here he said series-link would be ready from Q2.
- The Saorview people said the other night in Carlow that it was tested and ready and will be made available when there is a Saorview approved PVR on the market.
- Reported as testing in a number of posts here

I don't really understand why series-link and interactive weren't role out with digital TV. Its not like either of these services weren't known about. Why not leave Digital Aertel off the spec in its initial stages?

Did no one ever turn around and say its 2008 we have missed the boat complete so what we role out must be the complete product.

Sam Russell

Series link should be there now anyway.

Why have they nothing using AC3 sound - say on one of the radio channels? They should have all features somewhere on the system at this stage.

watty

Certainly at current bit rate MP2 audio is rubbish on some "Radio" channels. Why not have same bit rate of AC3 and quality would markedly improve.

Sam Russell

Using AC3 would showcase the difference. Some of the radio channels are just duplicates. Radio One and Radio One Extra are the same most of the time.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Using AC3 would showcase the difference. Some of the radio channels are just duplicates. Radio One and Radio One Extra are the same most of the time.

The Sound on Radio One Extra is different.

watty

Radio one extra appears to be the LW feed which "splits" sometimes? Lower bit rate anyway, or was last time I looked.

Sam Russell

I dont care which one they use as long as some channel gets to use AC3. It would be a way of telling if these products actually do as it says on the box.

For some reason, every advance is dragged out for as long as possible and I dont understand why.

byte

I agree it'd be good to have at least 1 radio station using AC3.

lawhec

Might be the case that there's little point in using AC3 unless 5.1 surround sound is there to be broadcast, AAC would be an easier option to implement.

Also, now just under six months until analogue switch off.

Antenna

watty wrote: »

Radio one extra appears to be the LW feed which "splits" sometimes? Lower bit rate anyway, or was last time I looked.

Yes.
The religious broadcasts on Sunday mornings.
With so few radios with Long Wave coverage in average homes nowadays, people may have a use for RTE R1 Extra on Saorview if they want to hear these religious broadcasts.

Why not put RnaG in ACC on Saorview? - its then easy to test what receivers cannot receive ACC sound without disrupting for anybody something not available on FM.

Sponge Bob

RnaG has more listeners than LW feeds do. Many up north in mp2 country.

watty

It's not hard to get a LW radio.
Better coverage than Saorview
If you have an ultra slim LED backlight LCD a decent LW set even with poor 4" speaker will even sound better than Saorview!

Anyone that wants RTE1 extra already has it.

So certainly it's not going to disrupt to use R1 Extra for ACC.
They should do it with Lyric too:
1) Current FM Lyric sounds better
2) Anyone that wants Lyric already has it
3) who wants to listen to Lyric on the tinny little speakers on a modern LED backlit LCD TV?
4) Some BluRay HomeTheater player/amps have FM and sound better on FM than Saorview via optical out from TV!
5) All Saorview (and many non-Saorview stuff working on RTE2 HD) will do AAC anyway

But DON'T use AAC as an excuse to lower bit rate! Use it to improve the quality.

Elmo

Antenna wrote: »

Yes.
The religious broadcasts on Sunday mornings.
With so few radios with Long Wave coverage in average homes nowadays, people may have a use for RTE R1 Extra on Saorview if they want to hear these religious broadcasts.

Why not put RnaG in ACC on Saorview? - its then easy to test what receivers cannot receive ACC sound without disrupting for anybody something not available on FM.

Why not use any of the "extra" channels?

Sam Russell

They could even try it out on all the radio channels on Mux2 that is currently 'testing' on ch58 in Dublin.

The Cush

Dáil question last week on a possible assistance scheme for people affected by the switchover to digital and not covered by Saorview

Other Questions - Broadcasting Services
Thursday, 26 April 2012

139. Deputy Michael McCarthy asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if his attention has been drawn to concerns among many people in west Cork who will not be able to receive the new Saorview service once analogue television is discontinued on 24 October 2012; if he will consider that the option being made available to them in purchasing an individual receiver is not viable in view of the cost involved and the limited channels offered; his plans to make provisions for persons adversely affected by the switchover; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21064/12]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): [...]

I am very much aware of the challenges digital switchover brings, in particular for households that are reliant on the existing “free to air” analogue TV network. We have chosen to use outreach and marketing schemes to provide the assistance and support necessary for people to make the switch. As I have stated in previous questions, we have not and do not propose to introduce grant schemes for this purpose.

Experience from other European countries indicates that the cost of set top boxes and other digital receivers reduces as the date for digital switchover approaches, and there is increased competition in the market. There is clear evidence that this is now happening in Ireland with affordable set top boxes that meet the SAORVIEW standard on the market, as well as a range of suitable digital televisions. In addition, experience from other European countries also shows that the availability of accurate and reliable information and the provision of practical assistance is the most effective approach towards assisting people in making the switch to digital television.

In this regard, therefore, to overcome the challenges that digital switchover brings, I have undertaken to deliver a substantial information campaign providing households with information on the digital switchover and on their options for going digital. This information campaign commenced in quarter four 2011. There are a number of strands to the campaign including a national telephone helpline and a national advertising and public relations campaign. An information booklet will also be delivered to every house in the country. The campaign will run up to the end of 2012.

In conjunction with this, my Department has been working to address the particular information and assistance needs of vulnerable households as they prepare to go digital. On January 10th 2012 I signed an agreement with a national voluntary organisation, the Wheel, to develop and operate a nationwide community outreach digital switchover programme (Outreach Programme).

Community umbrella group - The Wheel, in conjunction with voluntary and community organisations throughout the country, has begun to roll out a countrywide Outreach Programme in April/May 2012, which will provide additional assistance and advice at community level to those who may find the move to digital TV difficult. The aim of the Outreach Programme is to ensure that everybody is made aware of the switchover and that no TV viewers are left without a TV service once the national analogue TV service switches off on October 24th 2012. A press release issued on the Outreach Programme and is available on the dedicated digital switchover website www.goingdidital.ie as is the list of local champions referred to above.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/04/26/00130.asp#N2

The Cush

Dáil question from Clare Daly on a possible equipment replacement scheme for low income families

Written Answers - Broadcasting Services
Wednesday, 2 May 2012

28. Deputy Clare Daly asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources further to Parliamentary Question No. 402 of 14 February 2012 regarding Saorview and noting that up to 469,000 homes have acquired or will require a new digital primary television source by 24 October 2012, if he will provide a replacement scheme similar to the successful 2008 radio replacement scheme for marginalised low income families. [21700/12]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): I am very much aware of the challenges digital switchover brings, in particular for households that are reliant on the existing “free to air” analogue TV network. It is estimated that about 250 thousand households are solely reliant on the Irish analogue TV network. A further 350 thousand households use the network for secondary TV’s or as a back up. The necessary assistance and support for everyone but in particular for those households who need to make the switch to digital is being provided through a substantial national information campaign. In addition there is a community outreach programme aimed at providing local assistance to meet the needs of the most vulnerable in society. As I have stated in reply to previous questions, I do not propose to introduce grant schemes for this purpose.

Experience from other European countries indicates that the cost of set top boxes and other digital receivers reduces as the date for digital switchover approaches, and as competition increases in the market. There is clear evidence that this is now happening in Ireland with affordable set top boxes that meet the SAORVIEW standard on the market, as well as a wide range of suitable digital televisions. A small SAORVIEW TV can cost as little as €120 and set top boxes are now retailing from €70 or less. Experience from other European countries however shows that the availability of accurate and reliable information and the provision of practical assistance is the most effective approach towards assisting people in making the switch to digital television.

In this regard, therefore, to overcome the challenges that digital switchover brings, I have undertaken to deliver a substantial information campaign providing households with information on the digital switchover, the 24 October date for analogue switch off and on their options for going digital. This information campaign commenced in quarter four 2011 and includes a dedicated telephone helpline, 1890 840 980, a website www.goingdigital.ie , information booklets, TV and radio Ads and a PR campaign. An information booklet will also be delivered to every house in the country in the coming months. In conjunction with this, my Department has been working to address the particular information and assistance needs of vulnerable households as they prepare to go digital. On January 10th 2012, I signed an agreement with a national voluntary organisation, the Wheel, to develop and operate a nationwide community outreach digital switchover programme (Outreach Programme).

The Wheel, in conjunction with other voluntary and community organisations throughout the country, has now begun to roll out the countrywide Outreach Programme through a network of recently appointed county-based local Champions. The aim of the Outreach Programme, which will provide additional assistance and advice at community level to those who may find the move to digital TV difficult, is to ensure that everybody is made aware of the switchover and that no TV viewers are left without a TV service once the national analogue TV service switches off in October. A press release issued on the Outreach Programme and is available on the dedicated digital switchover website www.goingdidital.ie as is the list of local champions referred to above

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/05/02/00040.asp#N7

Sam Russell

Is this the same Clare Daly, TD who is opposed to paying the household charge and the water charges, and was also against bin charges?

Wonder where she thinks the Gov is to get the money from?

Extinction

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is this the same Clare Daly, TD who is opposed to paying the household charge and the water charges, and was also against bin charges?

Wonder where she thinks the Gov is to get the money from?

Maybe the government could get it from the 70 million or so that they receive for the switchover or from the millions in vat they will get from everybody who purchases a saorview television or receiver and other equipment they need to buy to upgrade or from the revenue they will receive in income tax from trade retailers, saorview retailers and installers who pay their income tax (as opposed to band waggon jumpers who are unlikely to pay their share)

I'm sure the government could find the money just as easily as the UK government has http://www.helpscheme.co.uk/

Or even from the 500 million mentioned here http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2010/Minister+Ryan+announces+switch-on+of+Digital+Television.htm

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is this the same Clare Daly, TD who is opposed to paying the household charge and the water charges, and was also against bin charges?

Wonder where she thinks the Gov is to get the money from?

The government should have put money into providing a better FTA service on Soarview/Saorsat or Subsidizing STB/TVs. Rather then the millions they wasted on a Neutral Campaign that has yet to really take off. The broadcasters should have organised the "network neutral" DSO campaign between them, it wouldn't have cost them much to provide promo etc for DSO/ASO.

The Gov would rather waste money on contractors and advisers, rather then looking at the information they already have to hand.

The government can get money together if they really want. The only good aspect of the Government run campaign has been the DSO Champions campaign.

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

Dáil question from Clare Daly on a possible equipment replacement scheme for low income families

As Rabbitte said "As I have stated in previous questions, we have not and do not propose to introduce grant schemes for this purpose."

But Eamonn Ryan did propose such a scheme.

Sam Russell

I have said previously that it would cost the broadcasters nothing to have items on their regular programmes where Saorview was discussed. There would be no need to pay for advertising - it could all be done for free.

A banner on the affected channels/transmitters would be very effective.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have said previously that it would cost the broadcasters nothing to have items on their regular programmes where Saorview was discussed. There would be no need to pay for advertising - it could all be done for free.

A banner on the affected channels/transmitters would be very effective.

Weather you like Clare Daly's politics or not she is in opposition to ask questions. A question that was put forward on many occassions this week by many in opposition.

You may want to go down the line of cheap verbal abuse towards the economic polices of the Left Wing Opposition party by listenting to the usual Government and FF propaganda of "Back of the Envelope Economics" or "Looney Left" etc etc. But outside this bias you have to look at what they are asking, but you also have to look closely at what they are saying, TBH none of those TDs asking knew what to ask.

The government has taken their decision based on advice given to them by the Civil Service. The Civil Service have looked at number of things. and they felt:-

1. That it would be unsuitable to ask the Broadcasters to run the Platform Neutral Campaign due to their differing marketing campaigns, e.g such a campaign would not fit with TV3 type of promotion.
2. That they could not expect the Broadcasters to spend millions on a platform neutral campaign.
3. That subsidization of STBs or IDTVs would be anti-competitive towards pay TV providers like Sky and UPC. And that EU law has made a rule banning such promotion in any case.
4. Consultations on promotion of such services should take place with consultants with little Broadcasting experiance and that they won't pay for online promotion.
5. That voluntary groups will provide DSO champions.

Now IMO

1. Broadcaster and platform providers should come together to promote a cross platform DSO campaign. It would not cost them huge amounts as they have many of those promotional facilities open to them, it would obviously be separate to their own promotion. And it could be cost neutral to them.
2. Since RTÉ, TV3, TG4, Setanta, UPC and Sky all have contact with their customers they would not find it difficult to tell people about DSO. The Netural Platform DSO campaign (AKA going digital has been a failure on most levels).
1. and 2. All of these companies must have some type of so-called Corporate Responsibly.
3. Ireland is a small country, Ireland has a high take up of Pay TV (@80%) unlike other EU contries which are often larger and don't have as high a take up of Pay TV. Soarview in its current form would not cause Pay TV providers any real competition. There is no reason why in Ireland the government could not subsidies Saorsat and Saorview installations and equipment. And if they did see problems coming from Sky and UPC, they should have then put the money into both the IFB channel and OTV.
4. Like with the household charge and water we do actually know how many households their are in the country through a varity of sources, such as the TV Licence Fee, CSO reports and the Land Registry etc. The government choose not to use their resource rather they employ consultants to contact these areas of information within semi-statebodies.
4. If consultants are required then a website should be part of that requirement. They should also understand the broadcasting sector.
5. The only good part of the government run DSO campaign is DSO champions, which will at least provide a little bit of money to voluntary organisations and get many isolated older people visitors.

watty

Setanta, UPC and Sky are uninterested in any neutral objective campaign. The more disorganised and "muddy" the message is the more it suits them.

Setanta are irrelevant and it's almost borders on criminality that they get any Sound & Vision fund money.

It's not illegal for infrastructure or boxes to be subsidised. It depends how it's done. It would be illegal for the Government to subsidise Pay TV or Commercial TV3.

The Government didn't put a cent into the DTT roll out yet hope to make hundreds of Millions selling TV spectrum.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

It's not illegal for infrastructure or boxes to be subsidised. It depends how it's done.

UPC lodged a state aid complaint with the European Commission regarding certain aspects of the DTT rollout. Haven't heard anything about it for over a year now, the wheels in Brussels grind pretty slow.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71890137

Sam Russell

@elmo

You are quite right in your opinion. I am always surprised at how opaque the civil service can be in their view and their interpretation of EU legislation, even when such interpretation is in direct opposition to our national inerest, even though that particular interpretation is wrong-headed, and open to dispute.

RTE have decided (IMHO) since the new DG to ignore the Saorview service since the SI signed by the part-time minister Carey who decided (on his last day in office) on RTE 1+1 and no advertising on RTE NN and RTE jr. Having starved RTE of any new revenue, it is no wonder RTE decided to shelve any activity directed towards promoting Saorview. Even free things like in-programme promotion were dropped.

TV3 have been allowed, through various publications like the Sunday Business Post and the Irish Daily Heil, to attack RTE and its unfair reliance on (TV3's) advertising revenue while also getting the licence fee. TV3 have been allowed to play hard to get with Saorview while never actually paying their way. (Currently allowed to mothball a large loan owed to Anglo with interest rate cut to 0% which amounts to a Government subsidy). They never paid the full cost of analogue transmission, refusing to pay for carriage on the non-main transmitters. They have taken every possible opportunity to rail against RTE, whether there was just cause or not.

It is disgraceful that (as a nation) we are left in this position where the national broadcaster is hog-tied by a non-national satellite broadcaster that pays little or no tax in Ireland (not even VAT) and a small inferior commercial station that provides most of its output from a foreign network with the active consent of both the Department of Government with responsibility (DCNER) and the BAI who have direct responsibility. All done under the cloak of EU competition rules/laws.

No wonder we are under the Troika of foreigners rifling through our family silver looking for anything worth selling.

Elmo

On the non-national satellite broadcaster, new EU rule saw them begin to pay Irish VAT in 2010 or 2011.

watty

The Cush wrote: »

UPC lodged a state aid complaint with the European Commission regarding certain aspects of the DTT rollout. Haven't heard anything about it for over a year now, the wheels in Brussels grind pretty slow.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71890137

Well, so far there has been zero State aid. The way the rollout is "happening" is boosting UPC & Sky.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

The list of digital outreach champions by county is now available on the Going Digital and Wheel websites

Article on the Co. Mayo Digital Outreach Champion Caroline Wilson - Knockmore woman to lead Mayo Digital TV Switchover campaign

The Cush

An information booklet will be delivered by the Department to every household in the country in June according to press release on http://www.goingdigital.ie/Media+Centre/Oldest+Working+TV+in+Ireland+Goes+Digital.htm

Oldest Working TV in Ireland Goes Digital

MINISTER PAT RABBITTE MAKES IRELAND’S OLDEST WORKING TELEVISION – A 1948 ECKO – GO DIGITAL

Friday 27th April, 2012: Having just last week discovered the oldest working TV in Ireland - a 1948 Ekco TSC91 – Minister Pat Rabbitte TD marked just six months to go the Digital TV Switchover by making the TV go digital in his office at Department Of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources, Adelaide Road.

Anyone who currently relies on an aerial to watch TV - approximately 250,000 households across Ireland - will need to take action before 24th October 2012 to retain access to TV services. Guidance on the Digital Switchover is available at www.goingdigital.ie, through LoCall 1890 940 980 (English language) and 1890 940 970 (Irish language). An information booklet will be delivered by the Department to every household in the country in June.