Dublin Bus Network Review

murphaph

cleveland browne wrote: »

The unfortunate thing is it is going to annoy the **** out of some people when traffic volumes are low like when kids are off school because what will happen in the future is likely your bus will stop for a couple of minutes at various locations on the way into town to ensure it arrives in around the time for a hand over.

That happens here regularly, but each stop has a departure time and the bus must stick to that, so waiting at a bus stop is part of the service. Once people realise that it is there to deliver a reliable service, they'll be ok with it. If anything, it just proves the need for MORE QBC and bus priority measures, and not half hearted ones.

cleveland browne

dowlingm wrote: »

I wouldn't count on it. AVLS rollout here in Toronto has been hiccuping. Hopefully the gadgets in use in Dublin will be more reliable.

They are fitted now and working but i would say it will be a while before the full benefit of them will be realised. Up to now timetables are basically done by guess work, how long it will take to get from point A to point B. When the system is running for a while the company will see exactly how long it is taking at different times of the day and cater timetables to those times. They will see exactly where the pinch points are etc etc.
But that won't happen straight away.
I think they won't really be able to do the 5 min average on services till the AVLS has been running for a little longer and you see where the routes join the main trunk with any kind of accuracy.

cleveland browne

murphaph wrote: »

That happens here regularly, but each stop has a departure time and the bus must stick to that, so waiting at a bus stop is part of the service. Once people realise that it is there to deliver a reliable service, they'll be ok with it. If anything, it just proves the need for MORE QBC and bus priority measures, and not half hearted ones.

Yeah I agree but people here have been used to the bus flying in at certain times in the future the journey is going to be pretty much the same no matter whether it is peak or off peak school holidays or not. People in a hurry are not going to be best pleased when the bus sits and waits at various stops for no apparent reason.
But as you say people will have to get used to it.

dynamick

Seán Barrett was on drivetime RTE yesterday praising buses and damning rail as he has been doing since the 70s. Link is here if you missed it:
http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-r1-drivetime.smil
starts 1:09:00 ends 1:18:05

His main points include:

• Why build a metro for 6bn to get you to the airport in 17mins when you can do it through the port tunnel by bus in 15mins? (this has been answered in other threads)
• Private buses carry a large proportion of public transport journeys in Ireland yet are not even counted by the dept. (fair point)
• Dublin bus increased its fleet by 25% since 2000 but managed to reduce the number of passengers it carries (also true)
• More people are using buses than taxis in the city centre and waiting time and reliability has increased for taxis since dereg (interesting)
• Why is the govt promoting the WRC train and not promoting the buses on the same route that are more frequent and faster? (agree)
• 33 qbcs are faster than the tallaght luas. 5 qbcs are faster than the dart. (I find this hard to believe, must have a look at DTO figures later)
• new bus routes will join destinations that people want to travel between.

He is very enthusiastic about new bus improvements but I think he has a blind spot for rail.

Sulmac

I'm pretty sure I posted this in this forum already, but this debate has reminded me of Fine Gael's "Bus Competition" policy document (PDF!) released a few months ago.

It's a very good proposal, and concerns national as well as Dublin bus services.

The only two things missing from it are ensuring that an integrated smartcard would cover the entire country (not just the GDA) and that a flat fare system would be introduced in Dublin (say €1 for any journey).

dynamick

I can't see fine gael bringing in bus competition when they will be in coalition with labour.

Cookie_Monster

cleveland browne wrote: »

Now that is likely to all change in the future most buses are now fitted with the GPS based AVL so timetables are going to be more accurate and controllers will be able to slow buses down and stop them before they get to the changeover.

wow, great. slower buses :mad:

KC61

cleveland browne wrote: »

Yeah I agree but people here have been used to the bus flying in at certain times in the future the journey is going to be pretty much the same no matter whether it is peak or off peak school holidays or not. People in a hurry are not going to be best pleased when the bus sits and waits at various stops for no apparent reason.
But as you say people will have to get used to it.

You would hope that the schedulers will get more accurate timings.

Personally I think there should be summer holiday timetables to take account of the change in running times.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

wow, great. slower buses :mad:

Not necessarily - the running times may well be wrong as it is!

murphaph

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

wow, great. slower buses :mad:

If you arrive at your stop (which will have its own individual timetable) a minute before the scheduled departure time and realise the bus already passed your stop 5 minutes beforehand because of light traffic, wouldn't you be a bit peeved?

To be honest, this issue will be reduced if they are committing themselves to use more of the QBC routes to funnel buses along. The likes of the R136 outer Ring Road is ridiculously under used for such a high quality road linking Tallaght to Clondalkin. These roads will hopefully see more bus traffic and less bus traffic on unsuitable, narrow streets with no bus lanes.

Once the network is fully reviewed and AVLC system is in place, we will know with certainty (and with imperical evidence that can be presented to DCC etc.) where the remaining pinch points are, in order to provide bus priority at those locations. Bus drivers know already, but I reckon nobody listens to them tbh so this "evidence" is what's needed.

murphaph

KC61 wrote: »

You would hope that the schedulers will get more accurate timings.

Personally I think there should be summer holiday timetables to take account of the change in running times.

In the short to medium term, not a bad idea but longer term the additional traffic from the school run should be made a non-issue through the continuous improvement of bus priority measures and eventually a congestion charge.

cleveland browne

murphaph wrote: »

In the short to medium term, not a bad idea but longer term the additional traffic from the school run should be made a non-issue through the continuous improvement of bus priority measures and eventually a congestion charge.

Its not just the traffic it is also that you are carrying less people so less dwell time at stops, less stops having to be made etc.

cleveland browne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

wow, great. slower buses :mad:

The bus will basically take the same time to get to town irrespective of traffic the down side is you don't benefit by a quicker journey when traffic is lighter like school holidays etc the upside is that buses are more regular you really can't have it both ways.

cleveland browne

KC61 wrote: »

You would hope that the schedulers will get more accurate timings.

Personally I think there should be summer holiday timetables to take account of the change in running times.

The company has an agreement for the best part of 10 years to run summer schedules but never took advantage of it.
Always struck me as slightly crazy that we operate full service at times like this and Christmas week when people are looking for time off and the demand is not the same and force people to take "summer" holidays in April and September when you could actually do with them in work.

Philistine

cleveland browne wrote: »

The company has an agreement for the best part of 10 years to run summer schedules but never took advantage of it.
Always struck me as slightly crazy that we operate full service at times like this and Christmas week when people are looking for time off and the demand is not the same and force people to take "summer" holidays in April and September when you could actually do with them in work.

Just because people are not going to work Christmas week doesn't mean they aren't using the bus to go shopping in town.
Same amount of people use the bus to go to work when the kids are off school during the summer schedule.
Buses are just as full.

Carawaystick

Philistine wrote: »

Just because people are not going to work Christmas week doesn't mean they aren't using the bus to go shopping in town.
Same amount of people use the bus to go to work when the kids are off school during the summer schedule.
Buses are just as full.

The times people go shopping are a wee bit different to the times people go to work the rest of the year....

As I posted in the thread about the yellabellies, the main laws dealing with public transport were written over 78 years ago. what's changed since then I wonder <sarcasm>

Cash fares do slow the bus down but DB removed the travel ten tickets and then removed the prepaid two journey tickets so people going on trips that cost 1.80 or less have little incentive to use a transfer90.

I wonder how the quote allegedly from DB upthread about no-one being further than 500m from a stop is going to work on the 33 route....

An idea I've seen implemented in Luxemburg city and expanded there in the last few years is contraflow bus lanes. They're self policing, reducing traffic holding up busses.

KC61

Philistine wrote: »

Just because people are not going to work Christmas week doesn't mean they aren't using the bus to go shopping in town.
Same amount of people use the bus to go to work when the kids are off school during the summer schedule.
Buses are just as full.

There is no justification for running a full Monday/Friday schedule between Christmas and New Year. An enhanced Saturday schedule would be far more appropriate, by which I mean the basic Saturday service with some early morning extras so that everywhere has an early service.

I worked that week this year and the early morning buses were half-empty, and there were literally lines and lines of buses at each terminus. It was way over the top and completely unnecessary.

Similarly Good Friday should have a Saturday service.

In the summer, when the schools are off the buses get to the city faster and therefore are sitting at termini for far longer. The schedules should be redesigned for July and August to reflect that - resources are wasted.

AlekSmart

Because I have practical day to day experience of both, and Ireland sucks in comparison, mainly because we have been unable or unwilling to simply copy things that work from "Europe". The Dublin Bus network has slowly expanded, while at all times treating Dublin like an overgrown provincial town. The network has tried to be all things to all men for too long and it doesn't work.

Murphaph is to be commended for giving us a balanced comparison between the BVG (Berlin) Bus operation and the Dublin Bus scenario.

One of the most striking elements of the long running debate about Dublin Bus is that even today in 2010 we are reading of the implimentation of an efficiency review carried out by a top-notch firm of Accountants (albeit with the actual legwork farmed out to the TAS/Colin Buchanan partnership).

The report and its conclusions relate solely to the operations of Dublin Bus itself with the fundemantal issues of Fares and Fare Collection deemed to be outside of the original brief.

In my 30+ years working in the CIE group I have encountered several such reports beginning with McKinsey in the mid 1970`s.

One of the main reasons for the plethora of such reports is the peculiarly Irish way in which our Public Transport operations are regarded.

Murphaph`s experiences of Berlin`s Bus services are largely replicated throught Europe,with even the poorest Eastern European countries capable of operating their Public Transport services at levels of service provision and integration far beyond what even the most committed Irish head can understand.

Possibly the single greatest reason for these successful operations is the ability of the European mind to understand that the concept of the efficient provision of Urban Public Transport services is dependent upon the service itself being an integral part of the Urban conurbation it serves.

At no point has Dublins Bus services ever been seen as an integral part of Dublin Teo.
Instead it has operated in a strange space-time continuum which sees it ebb and flow with whatever political whim is currently on the ascendant.
As a result,Dublin Bus and before it,CIEs Dublin City Services, has never really had the available level of Overall committment to push it`s own efficiency plans ahead with any level of success.

And so it continues in 2010 as we see the company still engaged in a battle for hearts and minds of commuters but still with one arm tied behind it`s back.

I return to the issue of Fare`s and Fare Collection,which is (or Should be) of far greater importance to Dublin Bus than for many of its European comparator undertakings,who recieve subsidies well beyond Dublin Bus levels.

We don`t like to hear it,but the essential reason the Europeans have better Public Services is that they PAY for them.
The level of local taxation payable in most European Cities is well ahead of what we in Dublin will pay centrally,and that goes for Water,Waste and other services provided communally.

Dublin Bus depends on Cash Fare income for a far greater percentage of its total income,yet the company appears totally incapable of ensuring that the collection of this cash is as efficient as possible.

By this I mean the ability of a "turn-up and go" customer to calculate the fare for their journey from their stop with minimum of effort.

The company has consistently failed to identify it`s Fare Stages to cuctomers even though the Fare/Stage system remains on paper our standard operational system.

The very last question any Dublin Bus driver should have to deal with is "How much is the Fare to...."
A boarding passenger should have this information immediately to hand if they require it.
As it currently stands each Dublin Bus driver will rarely service a City Centre stop without at least one "exchange" re a fare or journey, something which has been greatly exascerbated by the City Centre Fare and it`s ambiguities.

HydeRoad rightly asks...

I always find it bemusing that a BUS operator needs an independent agency to come in and tell them what customers want, and how to run a bus service. It begs the question what kind of insight the people running the company have into running buses under their own initiative. I mean, all of the above is Page One of how to run a bus service, so what book have they been reading up to now?

and follows on with....

d) Buses with multiple exits. The last dual door buses may well leave the fleet this year. These older buses, with their shorter length and twin doors, were ideal vehicles for busy cross city services, with large numbers of passengers alighting AND boarding at the same stops. The bulk of the present fleet are longer, higher capacity single entrance vehicles. These single door buses are suitable enough for many of the present outbound corridors, where everyone boards at one end, and alight along the course of the route.

Both very good points and directly connected as the total vehicle design concept SHOULD allow for a Bus design to complement the method of Fare Collection.

Our current policy appears to combine the absolute worst of every world as it is beyond arguement that a manual cash-fare collection policy dictates a requirement for multiple door operation...it is simply not operationally efficient to attempt to stream incoming and outgoing passengers through a single door...in fact it`s impossible without being acceptance of a high degree of inbuilt dwell time at EVERY stop.

IF,however the company and its Civil Service overlords were to finally abandon the 19th Century fascination with manual cash-collection it should be possible to combine fully automated validation with single-door bus design.

Unfortunately I see no mention of such minutae in the Deloitte report as I suspect that level of "operational" stuff would require a different brief from the client.

I feel that I`m straying here so I`ll just try to re-emphasize my belief that rather than Deloitte studying Dublin Bus on a stand-alone basis,far greater benefit might have been gained from it taking an investigative overview of the manner in which Dublin itself organises it`s Public Transport policy.

Sadly that type of report was never going to be commissioned by a customer who just also happened to be a Minister for Transport

cson

Great post.

dynamick

AlekSmart makes some very fair points and obviously has the wisdom and experience behind him but I just want to defend the idea of outside consultant reports.

Every organisation needs to revisit its strategy once in a while. To do that well they need an outside perspective. Somebody from a completely different company or country who can assess the organisation with a fresh pair of eyes.

A report can cost a few quid but bear in mind that Dublin Bus spends more than 300 million per year and it is widely suspected that much of what it does is inefficient. So the likelihood is that a report that improved efficiency would pay for itself in a short time.

In the past it was very difficult to effect any change in Dublin Bus for political and industrial relation reasons but there is a different mood afoot now and the possibility of introducing radical change has arisen.

People see empty buses clogging up the city centre. They see buses bunching, leaving the terminus early, showing up at stops at unpredictable intervals. They see drivers taking ages to change then having a chat while the passengers look on. They see a stupid fare collection and zonal system when compared with the luas. They see buses following winding routes to honour old traditions.

85 million of Dublin Bus's income came direct form the taxpayer but the rest was mostly collected on monopoly routes from passengers with no choice so really all of Dublin Bus's revenue is public money.

I certainly hope that this report is not just for the shelf and that we will see a better route network, RTPI, AVLS, & bus priority in the city centre soon.

dowlingm

AlekSmart wrote:

At no point has Dublins Bus services ever been seen as an integral part of Dublin Teo. Instead it has operated in a strange space-time continuum which sees it ebb and flow with whatever political whim is currently on the ascendant. As a result,Dublin Bus and before it,CIEs Dublin City Services, has never really had the available level of Overall committment to push it`s own efficiency plans ahead with any level of success.

Bingo. Local control and local contribution are vital, subject to national safety standards. Here in Toronto transit planning and urban planning aren't in lockstep, but they are trying. With the current DB/DART/RPA setup, the DofT can actively sabotage the planning intent of local authorities by directing resources elsewhere. By creating an NTA rather than pressing ahead with a DTA, the centralising reflex remains a problem.

AlekSmart

With the current DB/DART/RPA setup, the DofT can actively sabotage the planning intent of local authorities by directing resources elsewhere. By creating an NTA rather than pressing ahead with a DTA, the centralising reflex remains a problem.

Spot-On Dowlingm.

If this thread does no more,it has already turned a dim light on the most basic of requirements for efficient Public Transport operation in Dublin.

That requirement is quite simple and consists only of a requirement to recognise that Public Transport cannot be an add-on or layered atop of an Urban Environment and then expected to work.

The very fact that Dublin City Council was,at the 11th hour,given responsibility for the Real Time Passenger Information streetside infrastructure speaks volumes of the actual understanding of Public Transport operations amongst our Administrators.

We now also see a slow faltering step towards the eventual Integrated Ticket with the appointment of Hewlett Packard to actually DO some production.

The Integrated Ticketing fiasco,of itself,remains good cause for serious introspective review as to how we manage Public Transport related issues.
The spending of some €40 Million on any given project for virtually zero return is surely a resigning matter.
We (The Public) have as yet not been adequately informed as to the actual reasons the Tendering Process collapsed so spectacularly at the last moment.
Many might say it`s water under the bridge now and let`s move on,but I contend that attitude simply ensures that further and alarmingly similar errors of judgement will continue to be an acceptable part of Public Transport planning in Ireland.

The current reality is the old order has not changeth one iota.
The essential difference is we have a "new" player in the NTA,which is essentially just another individual with a differing hymn-sheet from the rest.
Viz. Dublin Bus.
Dublin City Council
Bus Eireann
Iarnrod Eireann
DART
Veloia
Private Sector Operators
RPA
Integrated Ticketing Agency
Dept of Transport
Fingal,South Dublin,DunLaoighre Rathdown.....

and other bodies too,each withindividual and parochial requirements and intent on establishing their primacy in the pack.....It will not work...It cannot work.

We (Dublin) need a simple functioning single reference point for Public Transport planning and provision.
Why is this concept such a threat to our Central Government ?

cleveland browne

Philistine wrote: »

Just because people are not going to work Christmas week doesn't mean they aren't using the bus to go shopping in town.
Same amount of people use the bus to go to work when the kids are off school during the summer schedule.
Buses are just as full.

Eh no they don't trust me.

People take holidays people work in schools its not just the school kids that are missing.
On people going into town to shop far more people go into town to shop on a Saturday than monday to Friday and there is a reduced service on saturday.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Similarly Good Friday should have a Saturday service.

why? its a normal workday for most of the country

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why? its a normal workday for most of the country

Then why are the numbers using the buses so low?

richardjjd

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why? its a normal workday for most of the country

I don't have access to statistics, but I don't think its a normal workday. All public service (other than critical services) have it as a day off and I (working in a normal private sector office) have never worked it - and neither has anyone that I know. A Saturday (or even Sunday) service would be sufficient.

kthnxbai

richardjjd wrote: »

I don't have access to statistics, but I don't think its a normal workday. All public service (other than critical services) have it as a day off and I (working in a normal private sector office) have never worked it - and neither has anyone that I know. A Saturday (or even Sunday) service would be sufficient.

I would say offices would have it off alright, but you'd still have plenty of people working in service industries and retail that'd still have to get to work.

So long as there were enough busses to get people in/out of work it'd be fine. I agree that it probably doesn't warrant a full service, but keep in mind there will still be people working, and probably people shopping/having fun on their day off...

Cool Mo D

richardjjd wrote: »

I don't have access to statistics, but I don't think its a normal workday. All public service (other than critical services) have it as a day off and I (working in a normal private sector office) have never worked it - and neither has anyone that I know. A Saturday (or even Sunday) service would be sufficient.

It is normal workday in so far as companies are under no obligation to let people take it as a holiday. It's just tradition that many do. I know plenty of private sector companies that have people work it, and I would say it's about 50-50 if you get it off or not. Although a Saturday service would probably be fine.

angel01

richardjjd wrote: »

I don't have access to statistics, but I don't think its a normal workday. All public service (other than critical services) have it as a day off and I (working in a normal private sector office) have never worked it - and neither has anyone that I know. A Saturday (or even Sunday) service would be sufficient.

I have always worked it, just because public service have it off, doesn't mean private companies have it off. If it was a Saturday service or Sunday, I couldn't get to work on time :rolleyes:

Oh yes just because you have it off, means we all do... *sigh*

I also work Christmas Eve and again on the 27th all the way to New Years Eve, just because it doesn't affect you, it will affect others.

richardjjd

angel01 wrote: »

Oh yes just because you have it off, means we all do... *sigh*

I'm sorry I wasn't clear - That's not what I meant.

As a bank holiday (though not a public holiday) the vast majority of working people don't work on Good Friday - though this proportion is changing I suspect as more places now do open. At the moment, however, I'd imagine most people have Good Friday off. But this is hardly the point - what I'd look for is a public transport system which provides the public's transport needs - regardless of whether its a public holiday, bank holiday or just a normal working day.