Dublin Bus Network Review

KC61

From the RTE News website:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0422/dublinbus.html

Dublin Bus to change and combine routes
Thursday, 22 April 2010 07:59

Dublin Bus has announced it is to change the majority of its routes over the coming months.

The company said the redesign of its network comes after more than a year of consultation.

Dublin Bus said the changes will increase the frequency and efficiency of its service.

The overall number of routes is to be increased, but some existing routes will be straightened out with fewer diversions off quality bus corridors, while others will be combined.

Dublin Bus said this will make it easier to travel across the city without changing buses.

It says the average waiting time between services will be five minutes.

A real-time passenger information service will also be rolled-out later this year.

On RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Dublin Bus spokeswoman Clíodhna Ní Fhátharta said under the new plan there would be a reduction of up to 150 staff. She said it hopes to achieve this on a voluntary basis.

The company said the changes will be implemented on a phased basis.

alentejo

I see that DB are to introduce some big changes
5 min frequency
Possible job losses
major route changes

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0422/dublinbus.html

I feel a strike coming on!

Cookie_Monster

It says the average waiting time between services will be five minutes.

Never going to happen.

The most frequent bus at the moment is the 46A and at rush hour the frequency is 4 mins. How they will average 5 when the best is 4 is beyond me. Unless this refers to the useless point that every 5 mins a bus will go past you at your stop (even though you may be waiting for 1 of 10 routes that go by, it'll still be 5 min frequency)

Also greater frequency with less staff and less buses?

The overall number of routes is to be increased, but some existing routes will be straightened out with fewer diversions off quality bus corridors, while others will be combined

Will this increase be real routes or rush hour Xpressos though for the most part I wonder.

The highlighted bit is one of the most important I think. It means eliminating the like of Stillorgan village turn-off that add 5-15 mins to a route depending on traffic, can't happen soon enough to improve service greatly. And thos wanting to go to these locations only have a 2-3 mins walk to main corridor in general anyway.

Dublin Bus said this will make it easier to travel across the city without changing buses.

Again interesting as long as these route do not all run through the CC, but offer alternatives between suburbs.

A real-time passenger information service will also be rolled-out later this year.

I'll only believe this when I finally se it, been coming for the best part of a decade.

Sulmac

This also appeared on their site this morning:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Network-Direct/

edit: Here's the take of BreakingNews.ie and the Irish Independent on it.

And the first changes will take effect from the summer when new services serving Blanchardstown, Stillorgan and Lucan will be unveiled.

Some of the most-heavily trafficked routes, including the 10, 46a and 39, will be merged to form new services, while new orbital routes serving the outskirts will also be introduced. Buses every 10 minutes are promised on most services for the company's 450,000 daily passengers.

...

"Some routes picked up just half-a-dozen passengers and these people may have to walk further to a stop," a spokesman said yesterday. "The average distance from a bus stop will be 300 metres, but no one will have to walk more than 500 metres.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Never going to happen.

The most frequent bus at the moment is the 46A and at rush hour the frequency is 4 mins. How they will average 5 when the best is 4 is beyond me. Unless this refers to the useless point that every 5 mins a bus will go past you at your stop (even though you may be waiting for 1 of 10 routes that go by, it'll still be 5 min frequency)

Also greater frequency with less staff and less buses?

Of course that can happen. With integrated timetables along each corridor. For example on the Lucan QBC instead of a 25, 66 and 67A all leaving together as they do at certain times, followed by a 15 minute wait till the next bus, they are scheduled as a corridor so that they leave 5 minutes after each other.

Many routes have spare capacity in terms of runnning time after the introduction of the College Green bus gate. This means that buses can do more. If you merge two routes you may be able to operate it using less resources.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Will this increase be real routes or rush hour Xpressos though for the most part I wonder.

The highlighted bit is one of the most important I think. It means eliminating the like of Stillorgan village turn-off that add 5-15 mins to a route depending on traffic, can't happen soon enough to improve service greatly. And thos wanting to go to these locations only have a 2-3 mins walk to main corridor in general anyway.

This (going back to the Deloitte Report) is all about the standard routes - maybe routing some of the daytime buses on the Lucan QBC via the Chapelizod bypass for example. Not forcing everyone to take detours.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Again interesting as long as these route do not all run through the CC, but offer alternatives between suburbs.

More orbital routes should be part of the plan.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'll only believe this when I finally se it, been coming for the best part of a decade.

This is already being rolled out onboard the 123 buses with displays indicating the next stop.

Dublin City Council is responsible for the rollout of the bus stop displays which will follow from the current rollout of the Dublin Bus GPS based control system.

cleveland browne

Route 10 is to go

128 will join with the 15
20b with 14a
27b with 79
27 with 77
46a with 10
39 with 10
17a with 220
122/2

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Of course that can happen. With integrated timetables along each corridor. For example on the Lucan QBC instead of a 25, 66 and 67A all leaving together as they do at certain times, followed by a 15 minute wait till the next bus, they are scheduled as a corridor so that they leave 5 minutes after each other.

most people aren't waiting for 10 different routes though, only one so this statement is useless. people want to know the gap between the 10 and the next 10, not the gaps between the 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 (for example, not based on real routes).

The frequency on Kildare St for example must already be ever 10-20 seconds but in reality you'll still be waiting a minimum of 5-10 mins for your route.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

most people aren't waiting for 10 different routes though, only one so this statement is useless. people want to know the gap between the 10 and the next 10, not the gaps between the 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 (for example, not based on real routes).

The frequency on Kildare St for example must already be ever 10-20 seconds but in reality you'll still be waiting a minimum of 5-10 mins for your route.

The key is that each QBC has that level of frequency. Not every single route will - that would be impossible.

The point is that at the moment many corridors have totally disjointed schedules with routes grouped together. Co-ordinated schedules between routes on QBCs will deliver a far better bus service.

paulm17781

I've already lost hope

DB wrote:

Dublin Bus said this will make it easier to travel across the city without changing buses.

The problem with our networks (bus and rail) is that it is difficult to find integrated stops etc. This sounds like it's going to be more of the same. They should be trying to integrate routes.

cson

Whatever about the frequency and all that ****e; the real time information should be easily enough rolled out and that would ease the pain of a lot of commuters greatly knowing you wouldn't be waiting ages for your bus.

cleveland browne

40/78a
51/13
140/54a

dearg lady

paulm17781 wrote: »

I've already lost hope



The problem with our networks (bus and rail) is that it is difficult to find integrated stops etc. This sounds like it's going to be more of the same. They should be trying to integrate routes.

while i agree there's some integration lacking between the different services ie bus/train/luas, I think it's reasonably easy to change buses. I'd say be making more buses cross city DB would hope to minimise changes people need to make, but the option to change bus is still there, as easy as ever.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

I've already lost hope



The problem with our networks (bus and rail) is that it is difficult to find integrated stops etc. This sounds like it's going to be more of the same. They should be trying to integrate routes.

Surely it's better to wait for the actual plan (i.e. the detail) is published before making that judgement?

I don't any more than you do in terms of the level of detail, except that I have read the Deloitte report in detail and DB have committed to implementing that. I think we need to wait until that detail is published.

For reference the report is at:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/final%20report%20bus%20review%20220109.pdf

More cross-city routes will mean less people having to change.

The report also recommends integrated corridors.

dearg lady

hey cleveland, where you gettin this info from?

KC61

cson wrote: »

Whatever about the frequency and all that ****e; the real time information should be easily enough rolled out and that would ease the pain of a lot of commuters greatly knowing you wouldn't be waiting ages for your bus.

It needed the buses to be kitted out with the equipment first!

This is happening as we speak.

cleveland browne

90 buses removed from fleet
150 to 200 jobs

Route realignments

Example new 27 terminus in edenmore old 28terminus

KC61

I think that until we all see the detailed plan it is very difficult to judge what is involved.

Last year all sorts of rumours of particular route cuts were made which turned out to be rather off-mark.

I'm quite sure that there can be a better service even with fewer buses.

etchyed

Dublin Bus website wrote:

Over the coming months Dublin Bus will be holding local meetings to inform customers of planned changes. These changes will happen on a phased basis, beginning in mid 2010.

I can understand the necessity of keeping people informed and doing this gradually in order to prevent uproar and end up with nothing being done.

However local meetings and phased introduction sound dangerously like this is going to end up being heavily diluted.

thomasj

cleveland browne wrote: »

Route 10 is to go

128 will join with the 15
20b with 14a
27b with 79
27 with 77
46a with 10
39 with 10
17a with 220
122/2

interesting information, where can this be found?
I do like the idea of the 17a merging with the 220 it means a connection with the blanchardstown and malahide rd corridors finally if it did happen..
Also how do you merge the 39 with the 46a and 10?

angel01

The 10 bus is to go completely :eek::eek:

Will there be no bus going towards the phoenix park now?

dearg lady

KC61 have you seen the other thread, soem guy seems to have details, I dunno where from though!
I'm actually quite excited to see the full details, in fairness to DB,. they've been doing some serious overhauling of the whole network and setup, possibly the public service coudl take a leaf outta their book!!

cson

KC61 wrote: »

It needed the buses to be kitted out with the equipment first!

This is happening as we speak.

It's relatively simple afaik - fit the GPS to the Bus, I mean it doesn't even have to have the electronic boards at the stop just an internet tracker would suit most people fine as it'd mean they could check where their bus is and not have to head down to the stop 10 minutes early just in case that'd be one of the two days in the year the bus comes on time. Compared to other metropolitan cities I've experienced; the Bus service in Dublin is hugely lacking.

thorbarry

Hopefully this change is good. I'm not holding my breath tho. My usual bus was the 15c, it used to come every 40/50 minutes and take about 45 min max to get to town. Last year they combined it with the 15b. I thought it would be good, but now it takes well over an hour everytime to get to town, but the bus comes every 20/25 minutes now.... I still liked it better when it went directly into town and not all over the place

cson

dearg lady wrote: »

KC61 have you seen the other thread, soem guy seems to have details, I dunno where from though!
I'm actually quite excited to see the full details, in fairness to DB,. they've been doing some serious overhauling of the whole network and setup, possibly the public service coudl take a leaf outta their book!!

Are you serious? Dublin Bus and by extension CIE are some of the most inefficient, inept organisations within this country. The whole project smells like window dressing to me allied to something that should have been rolled out 5 years ago [realtime info].

Cookie_Monster

how can 46a and 10 join, run two totally different route from Donnybrook to Stephan green. Thats a big loss to one of those two streets.

I though the 10 was amongst the most popular routes, how can it be axed. Particularly at rush hour the 46a can barely cope andyway between CC and Belfield, what's it gonna be like with all that extra load?

dearg lady

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how can 46a and 10 join, run two totally different route from Donnybrook to Stephan green. Thats a big loss to one of those two streets.

I though the 10 was amongst the most popular routes, how can it be axed. Particularly at rush hour the 46a can barely cope andyway between CC and Belfield, what's it gonna be like with all that extra load?

It'll be interesting to see the full detail of new routes, I would wait and see before passing much comment. especially since we have no official source for this yet!

paulm17781

dearg lady wrote: »

while i agree there's some integration lacking between the different services ie bus/train/luas, I think it's reasonably easy to change buses. I'd say be making more buses cross city DB would hope to minimise changes people need to make, but the option to change bus is still there, as easy as ever.

It's easy to change buses (also easy to walk two miles) but where it the single journey tickets, the highly secretive travel 90 for example? It shouldn't be about minimising changes, it should be about making changes easy to make.

etchyed

KC61 wrote: »

It needed the buses to be kitted out with the equipment first!

This is happening as we speak.

I agree that people are being overly sceptical about this. It is actually happening now, equipment is being physically installed on buses. I understand if people are fed up of listening to years of lipservice being paid to this but when it's actually happening you can't continue to say "I'll believe it when I see it". You are seeing it! In SMS form at least. Which will be fine if it's a regular number like Bus Éireann's and not a 30c/50c shortcode.

What is annoying is how Dublin City Council have been charged with actually putting up the signs because of some stupid fudge to private operators. In my opinion, Dublin Bus should be in charge of it on the understanding that as they're using public money, they may have to comply with requests from the NTA to include private routes on them at a later date.

It's also a shame that only the 123 is to get onboard location info.

dearg lady

cson wrote: »

Are you serious? Dublin Bus and by extension CIE are some of the most inefficient, inept organisations within this country. The whole project smells like window dressing to me allied to something that should have been rolled out 5 years ago [realtime info].

yes I am quite serious, DB has been horrendously inefficient for years now they are making huge moves to fix this. I'm pleased with this. Or I coudl just keep whingin cos nothing's ever good enough for some people :rolleyes:

dearg lady

paulm17781 wrote: »

It's easy to change buses (also easy to walk two miles) but where it the single journey tickets, the highly secretive travel 90 for example? It shouldn't be about minimising changes, it should be about making changes easy to make.

Highly secretive?? Don't be bloody ridiculous, anyone who makes the slightest effort to get the best value for money will research what tickets are available and what suits them best.

This thread is turning into a farce, I do believe, I'm out

KC61

cson wrote: »

It's relatively simple afaik - fit the GPS to the Bus, I mean it doesn't even have to have the electronic boards at the stop just an internet tracker would suit most people fine as it'd mean they could check where their bus is and not have to head down to the stop 10 minutes early just in case that'd be one of the two days in the year the bus comes on time. Compared to other metropolitan cities I've experienced; the Bus service in Dublin is hugely lacking.

That is precisely what is currently being implemented with rollout during the year.

Government funding for the project was withheld some years back - hence the delay.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

It's easy to change buses (also easy to walk two miles) but where it the single journey tickets, the highly secretive travel 90 for example? It shouldn't be about minimising changes, it should be about making changes easy to make.

I do genuinely believe that if Deloitte is implemented properly that is what we will see.

The travel 90 is hardly that secret - it has been advertised on the sides of buses and on the website - if people choose to continue to pay a EUR 2.20 csah fare then that really is their own fault!

cleveland browne

KC61 wrote: »

I think that until we all see the detailed plan it is very difficult to judge what is involved.

Last year all sorts of rumours of particular route cuts were made which turned out to be rather off-mark.

I'm quite sure that there can be a better service even with fewer buses.

This isfrom a meeting yezteday not speculation just the headlines from the plan..

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how can 46a and 10 join, run two totally different route from Donnybrook to Stephan green. Thats a big loss to one of those two streets.

I though the 10 was amongst the most popular routes, how can it be axed. Particularly at rush hour the 46a can barely cope andyway between CC and Belfield, what's it gonna be like with all that extra load?

Read the post again. The 39 and the 10 are to be merged too.

Probably as follows:

Extend the 39 via Baggot Street to Belfield.

Extend the 46a to Phoenix Park.

That's how! People need to think outside the box here!

KC61

cleveland browne wrote: »

This isfrom a meeting yezteday not speculation just the headlines from the plan..

I am aware of that - but the devil is always in the detail and headlines never tell the whole story!

angel01

KC61 wrote: »

Read the post again. The 39 and the 10 are to be merged too.

Probably as follows:

Extend the 39 via Baggot Street to Belfield.

Extend the 46a to Phoenix Park.

That's how! People need to think outside the box here!

Is it just the 39 that will be effected in Blanchardstown? will the 38 be affected?

KC61

angel01 wrote: »

Is it just the 39 that will be effected in Blanchardstown? will the 38 be affected?

I don't know - I imagine most routes are going to change somehow....we will have to wait and see!

angel01

KC61 wrote: »

I don't know - I imagine most routes are going to change somehow....we will have to wait and see!

:( I fear a strike ahead..

murphaph

Credit where credit is due. I hope DB mean what they say and will genuinely let the axe fall on all those tedious diversions that result in buses being snarled up in traffic for ages.

The 39 is crying out for serious reform so great that they're starting with that. I was soooo disappointed when the Ongar Distributor Road (complete with dual bus lanes throughout) was left almost unused when it opened in a vain effort to serve Clonsilla Village (eh, hardly anyone lives there!). They should run the 39 straight down this road and out onto the bypass asap. People will HAVE to walk further to a bus stop, like most countries where the bus functions well. I think even a guaranteed bus stop within 500m is far too short. A bus stop with 750 to 1000 metres is fine, so long as that stop is on a high quality, direct corridor, so the added walk is worth it in reliable, fast journey times.

DB can only do so much though and until the various local authorities cooperate with each other and DB in planning and delivering real bus priority measures, and network changes proposed by DB will have limited effect. Priority should pretty much always be given to the bus, unless there is a very strong argument not to.

murphaph

paulm17781 wrote: »

It shouldn't be about minimising changes, it should be about making changes easy to make.

To be honest Paul, it's about both. German cities rejig their networks every few years to take account of changing commuting patterns and to minimise connections where possible. When connections are required, they should be as easy to make as possible of course.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Read the post again. The 39 and the 10 are to be merged too.

Probably as follows:

Extend the 39 via Baggot Street to Belfield.

Extend the 46a to Phoenix Park.

That's how! People need to think outside the box here!

hmmm... maybe.

But (and this is purely aesthetic)
why get rid of the 10, why not the 39.

Would it not make sense to also rationalise numbers back down by using the lower ones rather than discarding them?
Would obviously cause confusion is some areas, if the 9 or 12 suddenly reappeared for example but loner term would it make sense?

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

I do genuinely believe that if Deloitte is implemented properly that is what we will see.

any chance of getting them in to do same thing in IE?

KC61

angel01 wrote: »

:( I fear a strike ahead..

Well there are already agreements in place for change to be implemented....

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

hmmm... maybe.

But (and this is purely aesthetic)
why get rid of the 10, why not the 39.

Would it not make sense to also rationalise numbers back down by using the lower ones rather than discarding them?
Would obviously cause confusion is some areas, if the 9 or 12 suddenly reappeared for example but loner term would it make sense?

Perhaps some renumbering will happen - again we'll have to wait and see!

lucernarian

This plan seems like a disaster. The routes that have the biggest problems with 2 or 3 buses arriving at the same time seem to be those routes that have already travelled across much of the city by the time they reach e.g. the city centre. The number 4/4a being a good example. This is compounded by the 7s having the nasty habit of leaving roughly when a 4/4a arrives anyway!

Especially now that most people have some sort of travel card which is valid for as many changeovers as you want, why do they see fit to add even more impunctual cross-city routes.

Also, I get the feeling that Dublin Bus like annoying or even screwing over both the drivers and users of the 128.

angel01

I swear if they cut the bus route I get every day and make it longer, I will camp inside DB HQ and will not move. They are making the routes longer = cut in service. DB make me sick. Serving the entire community... what a load of tosh.:mad:

Cookie_Monster

angel01 wrote: »

I swear if they cut the bus route I get every day and make it longer, I will camp inside DB HQ and will not move. They are making the routes longer = cut in service. DB make me sick. Serving the entire community... what a load of tosh.:mad:

but there'll be a bus you don't need or want to get going by every 5 mins now :pac:

murphaph

angel01 wrote: »

I swear if they cut the bus route I get every day and make it longer, I will camp inside DB HQ and will not move. They are making the routes longer = cut in service. DB make me sick. Serving the entire community... what a load of tosh.:mad:

They are making routes shorter though

They want to eliminate diversions to serve settlements that have since been bypassed, letting the passengers walk a bit further to the stop. I don't think you really understand the network review I have to say. You should read the Deloitte report.

angel01

murphaph wrote: »

They are making routes shorter though

They want to eliminate diversions to serve settlements that have since been bypassed, letting the passengers walk a bit further to the stop. I don't think you really understand the network review I have to say. You should read the Deloitte report.

I do understand it, but as I don't live in those areas and live on a route that has already been cut, I swear if they do change mine. I will be so blooming angry.

In my opinion, the northside of the city suffers once again :mad:

cson

dearg lady wrote: »

yes I am quite serious, DB has been horrendously inefficient for years now they are making huge moves to fix this. I'm pleased with this. Or I coudl just keep whingin cos nothing's ever good enough for some people :rolleyes:

I'll give Dublin Bus credit when it deserves it. Plainly; it does not. Unfortunately it's a mixture of being CIE run, the city being unlike others in not having an extensive metro/tram system in place [before Luas], the haphazard planning of Dublin itself and the dependancy as a nation on cars. I haven't seen huge moves to fix anything - there are swanky new buses bought with boom money, the odd new bus shelter here and there and what else? Seriously what else?

dearg lady wrote: »

Highly secretive?? Don't be bloody ridiculous, anyone who makes the slightest effort to get the best value for money will research what tickets are available and what suits them best.

This thread is turning into a farce, I do believe, I'm out

The ticketing system is a farce. It's expensive - €100 for a monthly ticket is frankly ridiculous. You'd need to be making two €2.20 trips a day to make it viable. Lack of an integrated ticket until recently - in Chicago one can get use of the extensive Bus and Metro services for $80 Monthly ticket. Around €60 fyi.

The archaic ticketing is a huge encumbrance on efficiency - DB should really be adopting the TfL approach of having a flat fare [€3] thus necessitating everyone goes ticketless and improving efficency as there are little/no cash transactions. Furthermore; a system similar to TfL where embarking passengers board at the front and disembarking board at the rear would be preferable. Of course this is not possible bar the older buses as the new ones were ordered without the middle doors, yet more short sightedness.

cson

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

any chance of getting them in to do same thing in IE?

IE are more interested in covering up the reports they commission.