Dublin Bus Network Review

murphaph

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I would take average to mean exactly that, average across the whole network, not just along select high density corridors. otherwise its meaningless, which frankly it is anyway IMO, I don't see the point in advertising that 12 buses an hour will go by me if there is still only one I can get to my destination.

...because you're not the only customer maybe? Can you not see that by organising the timetable of (say for example) the 67/66/25 buses so that the shared "trunk section" is exactly the same and so that you don't have 2 buses "piggybacking" each other all the way but rather spread out so that the frequency along this trunk section is higher, is a good thing?

It is really basic stuff that has been employed outside Ireland (not just with buses, with trains and trams too) for YEARS! If you live at the end of a branch, yes, you will still have to use a timetable in all probability BUT if you live along a trunk route, you'll have a turn up and go service. This is the best that can be provided and is standard practice in cities across europe, cities with FAR better levels of service than Dublin.

Do you not see the overall advantage, just because you personally will likely see none? In fact you should actually see a more comfortable journey as passengers along the trunk sections are better spread out and not all piling onto the first bus to arrive after a 20 minute wait. Seriously I am dissappointed with the me fein attitude on display here. DB andf CIE in general have been in the dark ages for so long and when a real and meaningful reform of the system is mooted, people are negative about it.

KC61

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Nobody asked for high frequency. Just a bus service where there isnt 5 hours between buses, so OAPs dont have to walk and thumb lifts on a main road, would be nice. With the 41, 41A, 41C all terminating 5 mins down the road it wouldnt be hard to terminate at least 1 an hour in Rolestown.

So now we're only talking about QBCs. And the rest of the population can get stuffed.
Well done Dublin Bus.

That may well be the case - I don't think 5 hour gaps in service are acceptable either, but it would really depend on the level of demand.

FlameoftheWest

KC61 wrote: »

From the RTE News website:


The company said the changes will be implemented on a phased basis.

A new logo...then a slightly digerent version of the logo...then another version of the logo with the Transport21 logo incorportated into it...then another logo again with a colour they haven't used yet...

murphaph

angel01 wrote: »

Sorry but why do you keep bring Germany up? This isn't Germany. Why can't we focus on routes here and what affects area's in Dublin instead.

Because I have practical day to day experience of both, and Ireland sucks in comparison, mainly because we have been unable or unwilling to simply copy things that work from "Europe". The Dublin Bus network has slowly expanded, while at all times treating Dublin like an overgrown provincial town. The network has tried to be all things to all men for too long and it doesn't work.

FlameoftheWest

angel01 wrote: »

Sorry but why do you keep bring Germany up? This isn't Germany. Why can't we focus on routes here and what affects area's in Dublin instead.

I suspect because in Germany they provide public transport while here in Ireland CIE can't be bothered.

angel01

murphaph wrote: »

Because I have practical day to day experience of both, and Ireland sucks in comparison, mainly because we have been unable or unwilling to simply copy things that work from "Europe". The Dublin Bus network has slowly expanded, while at all times treating Dublin like an overgrown provincial town. The network has tried to be all things to all men for too long and it doesn't work.

That is fair enough but just because it works in one city, doesn't necessarily mean it will work here.

I am concerned for the people who live say at the starting point in the route, with all these changes, all I can foresee is that they will be the ones affected and the routes will take an age now

HydeRoad

From a prospective passenger point of view, I am really looking forward to all this.

According to the Dublin Bus website, the Deloitte Report tells them that the 'customer' wants:
* Regular frequent services on all main routes
* Faster, more direct services with fewer route variations
* A network that is easier to understand
* More cross city services and more direct routes into the city and other key customer demand areas
* Customer focused timetables with consistent intervals between departures
* Real time passenger information and improved reliability

I always find it bemusing that a BUS operator needs an independent agency to come in and tell them what customers want, and how to run a bus service. It begs the question what kind of insight the people running the company have into running buses under their own initiative. I mean, all of the above is Page One of how to run a bus service, so what book have they been reading up to now?

Anyway, at least there now sees to be a bit of sense offered at the table, despite whoever offered it. My observations would be as follows:

a) The archaic fare collection. This report cost a lot of money, and the ensuing changes will cost even more, until such time as the new services bed in with the public. Surely if there was ever a time in history to sort out this gaping maw, it was now? I firmly believe that sorting out the abnormal dwell time at bus stops would save one whole bus, and maybe two, off each and every route. With these new long cross city services, two or three more buses could be saved. There are still further efficiencies to be gained, and the resultant time savings will only encourage better reliability and more customer take up.

If the Department of Transport are responsible for maintaining this anachronism, then why aren't Dublin Bus going in there and making an issue of it, publicly, in defence of their own reputation? It is plainly obvious that the DoT under Dempsey, and Cullen before him, are woefully inept, and a bit of publicity should help to drag them into the 21st century.

b) Crew changes. One issue that will arise with these extraordinarily long routes is the issue of crew changes on the side of the road. On the cross city routes where this happens, it causes no end of disruption to reliability.

The ideal lap time for a city bus route is two hours, that's an hour in and an hour back. This allows for two round laps from depot back to depot, and makes for excellent reliability and ease of scheduling. Too many Dublin Bus routes overspilled this, with routes taking maybe an hour twenty each way, making scheduling far more difficult.

With routes like Clondalkin to Ballymun, or Coolock to Ballyfermot, the running time is going to be over three hours per lap. This means drivers working one three hour lap, or a lap and a 'bit,' requiring a roadside crew change. I really, really hope Dublin Bus move AWAY from roadside crew changes, instead of adding more. It is a fundamental requirement of reliability.

c) With the loss of so many city centre terminii, there will be an increase in 'dead' mileage, that is the running of empty buses, to and from the more city orientated depots. A long term view should be the location of new, smaller, purpose built depots at the outer end of main bus corridors, with routes starting and finishing at their depots, and all crew changes happening there. This would eliminate up to 80% of all buses sitting on the roadside, and reduce the inefficiency of non-revenue earning 'dead' mileage.

d) Buses with multiple exits. The last dual door buses may well leave the fleet this year. These older buses, with their shorter length and twin doors, were ideal vehicles for busy cross city services, with large numbers of passengers alighting AND boarding at the same stops. The bulk of the present fleet are longer, higher capacity single entrance vehicles. These single door buses are suitable enough for many of the present outbound corridors, where everyone boards at one end, and alight along the course of the route.

However, most of these routes are now going to become unwieldy cross city routes, with passengers boarding AND alighting together at critical city centre bus stops. Single door buses are going to grossly compound the dwell time at bus stops in a city where kerbspace availability is minimal.

It is vitally important, if cross city routes are the way of the future, that new bus orders are for dual door vehicles again.

Just some thoughts, I'll add more later.

KC61

angel01 wrote: »

That is fair enough but just because it works in one city, doesn't necessarily mean it will work here.

I am concerned for the people who live say at the starting point in the route, with all these changes, all I can foresee is that they will be the ones affected and the routes will take an age now

I am still mystified how you are concluding that "the routes will take an age now".

How are you arriving at this? I am genuinely not trying to catch anyone out with this question. Could you give me an example and I will try and give you my own take on it?

The whole point of this process is to make the service faster and more attractive to people.

murphaph

HydeRoad wrote: »

b) Crew changes. One issue that will arise with these extraordinarily long routes is the issue of crew changes on the side of the road. On the cross city routes where this happens, it causes no end of disruption to reliability.

Why do crew changes take so long? One of my buses is the 171 to Schönefeld Airport and I know where they change crew on it as I've seen it a few times. It takes about 60 seconds for one driver to get out of his seat, take his money (drivers aren't assaulted by scum in Berlin very often, so there are no security screens and cash is still handled, though it is exceptionally rare to see someone paying a cash fare as most everyone has a monthly ticket etc.), take his "module" thing out of the ticket machine and let the other guy get in and replace said items with his ones. Reall, all done in under a minute.

There is no chit chat etc, the timetable is sacred here!

Cookie_Monster

murphaph wrote: »

...because you're not the only customer maybe? Can you not see that by organising the timetable of (say for example) the 67/66/25 buses so that the shared "trunk section" is exactly the same and so that you don't have 2 buses "piggybacking" each other all the way but rather spread out so that the frequency along this trunk section is higher, is a good thing?

I'm objecting to the blatantly wrong spin that they are trying to put on it by claiming an average 5 min frequency, not about the fact that my local bus will not run every 5 mins.

Its just a stupid point to make and totally meaningless. Kildare st has a 10-15 second frequency, as do may CC streets at rush hour which just averages out the large waits elsewhere making it a totally meaningless figure.

KC61

murphaph wrote: »

Why do crew changes take so long? One of my buses is the 171 to Schönefeld Airport and I know where they change crew on it as I've seen it a few times. It takes about 60 seconds for one driver to get out of his seat, take his money (drivers aren't assaulted by scum in Berlin very often, so there are no security screens and cash is still handled, though it is exceptionally rare to see someone paying a cash fare as most everyone has a monthly ticket etc.), take his "module" thing out of the ticket machine and let the other guy get in and replace said items with his ones. Reall, all done in under a minute.

There is no chit chat etc, the timetable is sacred here!

The problem heretofore is that Dublin Bus prepared schedules based on looking only at the termini and estimating how long the bus would take to get to the changeover point. If that was overly generous then the bus ends up waiting at that point, which as we all know drives everyone mad!

That will change with the advent of AVLC whereby schedulers will have accurate information about running times, and (if Deloitte is implemented correctly) a full timetable for al lthe stops along the entire route.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

I am still mystified how you are concluding that "the routes will take an age now".
.

for the first few weeks they will anyway, with every 2nd passenger asking do you now go here, still go there, how much now (even though prices won't change)
getting on and back off when realise its the wrong bus and so forth

HydeRoad

murphaph wrote: »

Why do crew changes take so long?

Because when the bus arrives to change crew, the next driver is not there! Hence a bus full of passengers (customers?) waits at the side of the road, while two more empty buses pass by, leaving the passengers in the first bus fuming.

Do not underestimate the capacity of a small coterie of militant minded union members to upset what on the surface could be a very efficient and customer friendly exercise. In the private sector, such belligerents would be sacked.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

for the first few weeks they will anyway, with every 2nd passenger asking do you now go here, still go there, how much now (even though prices won't change)
getting on and back off when realise its the wrong bus and so forth

I think there is obviously going to be a period during which everyone gets used to the changes but I'm not sure that is what angel01 is getting at.

murphaph

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm objecting to the blatantly wrong spin that they are trying to put on it by claiming an average 5 min frequency, not about the fact that my local bus will not run every 5 mins.

Its just a stupid point to make and totally meaningless. Kildare st has a 10-15 second frequency, as do may CC streets at rush hour which just averages out the large waits elsewhere making it a totally meaningless figure.

Maybe it's 5 mins average wait for the average customer. As you say, Kildare st. could be 10-15 seconds and some customers who are just travelling a few stops could have this as their average wait, some, like yourself could have 20 minutes, so an average customer could have an average 5 min wait.

KC61

HydeRoad wrote: »

Do not underestimate the capacity of a small coterie of militant minded union members to upset what on the surface could be a very efficient and customer friendly exercise. In the private sector, such belligerents would be sacked.

Let's hope that they're offering good voluntary severance packages so!

Cool Mo D

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm objecting to the blatantly wrong spin that they are trying to put on it by claiming an average 5 min frequency, not about the fact that my local bus will not run every 5 mins.
.

They have never claimed this! That might be what is written in the papers, by journalists taking it up wrong - but here is the exact wording from Dublin Buses website:

Dublin Bus wrote:

Regular frequent services: An increase in the number of routes with an average waiting time of just 5 minutes between services (i.e. a bus every 10 minutes or less during peak demand times).

the groutch

one major change they could make imo is to introduce ticket machines for dublin bus, similar to those of the luas, at least as certain high volume areas
they could have it that people can buy what is effectively a single journey version of the smartcards, and at the busier stops (nassau st for example), you can have 50 people just swiping cards as they get on the bus, rather than half with cards, and the other half fiddling about in their pockets/purses/wallets for money, holding the buses up

murphaph

KC61 wrote: »

Let's hope that they're offering good voluntary severance packages so!

I don't think it would be approriate for redundant staff to be paid over the odds to leave, seeing as DB is reliant on a subsidy from the taxpayer to run it. If it were a private company they could offer what they wanted, but a state company should not be wasting taxpayers' money on redundancy packages.

KC61

I may have been slightly facetious in making that comment.....

Cookie_Monster

Regular frequent services: An increase in the number of routes with an average waiting time of just 5 minutes between services (i.e. a bus every 10 minutes or less during peak demand times).

In this quote what is a route defined as and what is a service?

Route: 46a
Service: 10.15 from Mountjoy Sq

Would be my taking of it, meaning they are claiming there will be multiple routes with 5 min frequency, impressive if it can be done.

KD345

Cookie Monster, the 5 minute frequency is based on corridors, for example - The Lucan Road, Crumlin Road, Malahide Road, Swords Road, Navan Road, Rathmines etc.

it means there will now be a proper 5 minute frequency along these routes where at present, you can have a 15A and 15B leaving together, then nothing for 20 minutes. Similar with the Lucan road, which can have gaps of 20 minutes before a bus arrives.

There is no way every bus route can have a 5 minute frequency. I thought that was clear, especially when they're removing 90 buses from the fleet.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

hmmm... I wonder what that means? obviously there are routes talked about here already impacted by the Luas, but what about the likes of the 4,7,8 which all run directly parallel to the DART for much of their route, will we see an impact here maybe?

I would hope not. The 4 and 7 and very busy bus routes. If these were running empty then I would certainly suggest they be cut back, but I think in this case, the level of service on both routes is justified despite their proximity to the Dart. You must remember that these routes only come close to The Dart between Ballsbridge and Blackrock. The 7 is heavily used in Loughlinstown, Ballybrack and Cheerywood. The 4 is used as a cross city service through Ballymun and Glasnevin. None of these areas are serviced by DART.

HydeRoad wrote: »

b) Crew changes. One issue that will arise with these extraordinarily long routes is the issue of crew changes on the side of the road. On the cross city routes where this happens, it causes no end of disruption to reliability.

The ideal lap time for a city bus route is two hours, that's an hour in and an hour back. This allows for two round laps from depot back to depot, and makes for excellent reliability and ease of scheduling. Too many Dublin Bus routes overspilled this, with routes taking maybe an hour twenty each way, making scheduling far more difficult.

With routes like Clondalkin to Ballymun, or Coolock to Ballyfermot, the running time is going to be over three hours per lap. This means drivers working one three hour lap, or a lap and a 'bit,' requiring a roadside crew change. I really, really hope Dublin Bus move AWAY from roadside crew changes, instead of adding more. It is a fundamental requirement of reliability.

c) With the loss of so many city centre terminii, there will be an increase in 'dead' mileage, that is the running of empty buses, to and from the more city orientated depots. A long term view should be the location of new, smaller, purpose built depots at the outer end of main bus corridors, with routes starting and finishing at their depots, and all crew changes happening there. This would eliminate up to 80% of all buses sitting on the roadside, and reduce the inefficiency of non-revenue earning 'dead' mileage.

I disagree. It has been proved through the report that having crew changes eliminates dead mileage and buses traveling "As Seirbhis". The loss of city centre termini will mean a 78A driver changing on Aston Quay keeping the bus in service rather than leaving it sit there for an hour.

The new crew changeover on the 4 and 128 last year highlighted how a this can benefit the company. I agree it can be frustrating to wait for driver takeover but most times it can be done within 2 minutes.

Aard

sdonn wrote: »

What we need now is a bus that does the canal ring, constantly ...

Yes, a proper Circle Line!

murphaph

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

In this quote what is a route defined as and what is a service?

Route: 46a
Service: 10.15 from Mountjoy Sq

Would be my taking of it, meaning they are claiming there will be multiple routes with 5 min frequency, impressive if it can be done.

Eh? It says "10 minute frequency", which means an average wait of 5 mins for a bus, some days it will be 1 minute, some days it will be 9, somedays 3, somedays 7 and so on, average wait of 5 mins.

Dublin can't justify a 5 minute service on any routes IMO as the density is not there to justify it. We have many 5 min frequency routes in Berlin but people live in much higher densities here. There are no houses with gardens within walking distance of the city centre, like there is in Dublin

dynamick

murphaph wrote: »

Dublin can't justify a 5 minute service on any routes IMO as the density is not there to justify it. We have many 5 min frequency routes in Berlin but people live in much higher densities here.

The N11 has 25 buses per peak hour per direction so that's just over 2 minute frequency.

There are no houses with gardens within walking distance of the city centre, like there is in Dublin

I used to live in a nice house with garden in Pankow which had not just a frequent bus service but also an U-Bahn and an S-Bahn station nearby.

lucernarian

KD345 wrote: »

The new crew changeover on the 4 and 128 last year highlighted how a this can benefit the company. I agree it can be frustrating to wait for driver takeover but most times it can be done within 2 minutes.

Just on that note, as a bus user who often had to use the 128 cross-city, I would agree that the driver swap took a couple of minutes but there were many occasions (e.g >15% of times that I used the 128) that the delay reached 5 minutes or more. The record was almost 15 minutes. The only thing it seemed to highlight was how bus drivers have a **** sense of timekeeping or that the 128 should have had a public intermediate timetable at Burgh/Eden quay so that passengers could predict when a 128 should actually arrive at e.g. Kildare st or Aimens st.

Also, I couldn't figure out how the 128s could be bunched up travelling southbound past trinity. as the drivers effectively have their own timetable for when the shift changeover takes place. Buses would want to be seriously delayed if they managed to be bunched up with each other (let alone the 14a which rarely went to Rathmines unaccompanied by a 128) despite having left the quay 700 metres away...

schemingbohemia

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Just on that note, as a bus user who often had to use the 128 cross-city, I would agree that the driver swap took a couple of minutes but there were many occasions (e.g >15% of times that I used the 128) that the delay reached 5 minutes or more. The record was almost 15 minutes. The only thing it seemed to highlight was how bus drivers have a **** sense of timekeeping or that the 128 should have had a public intermediate timetable at Burgh/Eden quay so that passengers could predict when a 128 should actually arrive at e.g. Kildare st or Aimens st.

Also, I couldn't figure out how the 128s could be bunched up travelling southbound past trinity. as the drivers effectively have their own timetable for when the shift changeover takes place. Buses would want to be seriously delayed if they managed to be bunched up with each other (let alone the 14a which rarely went to Rathmines unaccompanied by a 128) despite having left the quay 700 metres away...

as i posted earlier a lot of this will be done away with by the AVLS and the Real Time Passenger Information later in the year, if drivers are late/buses stopped at a bus stop for too long it will be recorded, also bunching should be stopped by this.

cleveland browne

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Just on that note, as a bus user who often had to use the 128 cross-city, I would agree that the driver swap took a couple of minutes but there were many occasions (e.g >15% of times that I used the 128) that the delay reached 5 minutes or more. The record was almost 15 minutes. The only thing it seemed to highlight was how bus drivers have a **** sense of timekeeping or that the 128 should have had a public intermediate timetable at Burgh/Eden quay so that passengers could predict when a 128 should actually arrive at e.g. Kildare st or Aimens st.

Also, I couldn't figure out how the 128s could be bunched up travelling southbound past trinity. as the drivers effectively have their own timetable for when the shift changeover takes place. Buses would want to be seriously delayed if they managed to be bunched up with each other (let alone the 14a which rarely went to Rathmines unaccompanied by a 128) despite having left the quay 700 metres away...

As KC61 has pointed out up to now bus were only really timed at both termini. There is no published city centre time on the 128 but there is a time on the drivers running board for the change of driver.
Drivers generally arrange between them to be at that point around 10 minutes before the official time to let the other driver go and to keep the service moving. However this is not anything official and the driver does not have to be there until the appointed time. So for example lets say the handover is meant to be 11:40 most drivers will be there at 11:30 but they are not paid till 11:40 so it is completely voluntary whether they turn up or not.
Now the driver coming in to do the changeover hopes the other driver will be there lets say he leaves at 10:45 he has no idea where there are any hold ups along the way so he will try and get into the changeover as soon as he can he arrives at 11:25 the other guy doesn't turn up till 11:40 you wait 15 minutes neither of them have done anything wrong.

Now that is likely to all change in the future most buses are now fitted with the GPS based AVL so timetables are going to be more accurate and controllers will be able to slow buses down and stop them before they get to the changeover.
The unfortunate thing is it is going to annoy the **** out of some people when traffic volumes are low like when kids are off school because what will happen in the future is likely your bus will stop for a couple of minutes at various locations on the way into town to ensure it arrives in around the time for a hand over.

Bunching up is because not all buses are handing over so the bus behind catches up on the one waiting for a handover.

dowlingm

I wouldn't count on it. AVLS rollout here in Toronto has been hiccuping. Hopefully the gadgets in use in Dublin will be more reliable.

murphaph

dynamick wrote: »

The N11 has 25 buses per peak hour per direction so that's just over 2 minute frequency.
I used to live in a nice house with garden in Pankow which had not just a frequent bus service but also an U-Bahn and an S-Bahn station nearby.

Those 25 buses aren't all the same route though, they are bunched routes, which is the way to go. When I said that no route could or should support 5 min frequency, I meant route, not bunch of routes. When we bunch routes we should easily hit 25 buses an hour in the peak, which is what the Review seems aimed at replicating across the city (replicating the success of the N11 QBC I mean).

Pankow is outside zone A, what most people would consider the "city centre" of Berlin. Are you suggesting that the density of housing in Berlin is on a par with Dublin? What istypical for Berlin? 5 storey apartments and high rise in infill left after the war, especially in the east. What is typical for Dublin? low rise, 3 bed semi d's: please don't try to make out the two are the same in any way.