Dublin Bus Network Review

cleveland browne

KC61 wrote: »

Why would you make the 40D redundant? It serves all the major business parks and is the fastest route to the city.

The Finglas Corridor has, to an extent, already had its review. I genuinely cannot see any reason for removing a route like the 40D. It ticks the boxes too as it operates along the Finglas QBC.

Yeah I would not think there would be much change on the finglas area other than the 140 and the 40 being joined to the 78a and the 54a to make them cross city routes and the joining of the 17a and the 220.

Chuchoter

Do you think they'll make more bus routes between the suburbs? Like Lucan to Castleknock or Lucan to Blanchardstown or Cabra. Where I live you can basically get into town 55 different ways and nowhere else.

KC61

crayolastereo wrote: »

Do you think they'll make more bus routes between the suburbs? Like Lucan to Castleknock or Lucan to Blanchardstown or Cabra. Where I live you can basically get into town 55 different ways and nowhere else.

Quite possibly. The Deloitte report advocated more orbital services.

kthnxbai

I'm a little bit apprehensive about all this...

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not whinging or taking gossip as gospel.. I'm just speculating!!

Especially after hearing that the 40s and 140s with be amalgamated with other bus routes...

I do very much believe in having cross city bus routes. I live in Finglas and go to Trinity... All of my friends live on the southside. And transferring during rush hour is generally ok, but it is quite awkward for me to get home and stuff at odd hours, particularly Sunday evenings...

I just hope that they've put a lot of thought and consideration into their plans... Sure, it'd probably make more sense to scrap the 40a and just have all 40s going every 5 minutes. But then i'm a half hour from the 40 stop. And the 40a in particular doesn't extend the route by anymore than 5/10 minutes at peak times. So sure, the busses are running every 5 minutes, but I've to walk for 30 minutes to get there... increasing my journey time overall.


I do think there are some routes that can be improved, but I just hope that DB don't go too gung ho about it. We were told last time there were changes to our route that it'd make it better and it didn't.

One thing I remember them saying about the new routes/timetables last year was that they wanted to stop 2/3 busses being grouped together. And anyone who gets the bus from Finglas will know that most mornings all the busses wind up catching up by the time they get to the Royal Oak...


So I'm not complaining about DB plans. I think there are a lot of changes needed. I'm just wary of what they could **** up


Oh another thing... ClevelandBrown said the 40 will be joined with the 54... that'd make one looooooooong ass route...

Seriously!

I do wonder what having extended routes would do for reliability....
I currently just get my bus from a terminus in town... I know when it leaves... If my bus is coming from the bog arse of nowhere out past tallaght surely that'd make it less reliable because it'd be subject to traffic etc...

paulm17781

The thing about grouping buses, is they all tend to be busy. If they could distribute buses more frequently, it could sort that out.

AlekSmart

The issue is the slowing down, stopping and accelerating of buses unnecessarily due to the number of stops, not necessarily if the are busy or not.

Cookie Monster has a very valid point here.

I would suggest that anybody in O Connell Street tomorrow take a good look at the condition of the road surface.

There are deep,lenghty and rapidly worsening depressions all along the street,particularly bad on the Northbound side from BAC Head Office to the Ambassador and mirrored Southside from Burger King to O Connell Bridge.

It`s one thing for a Bus Operator to stuff such a huge percentage of it`s vehicle movements along a single (Narrowed) street but in this case it now appears the actual (and very recently applied) road surface is being seriously damaged by the constant decellerative and accellerative forces of literally hundreds of heavy vehicles per hour.

The actual damage is perhaps easiest to spot on a bicycle or motorcycle and can be quite surprising if you`re not expecting it.

However we shall probably see Dublin City Council arrive in the dead of night to attempt a patch up job some night soon.

I remain hopeful that at least some of the "new" cross city routes will venture through the wild unchartered areas of An Lár such as Parnell Street/Bolton St/King st/Gardiner St districts where substantial numbers of people actually LIVE these days.....

Mind you I`m also cogniscant of the fact that a 95 vehicle reduction of the fleet now means Dublin Bus has lost some 200 vehicles in a year.

Its projected size going forward will be approx 925 vehicles.

I recall the final report of the ill fated Commission on Public Transport,set up under the then Minister for Transport Mary O Rourke recommended an optimum Dublin Bus fleet size of c.1,400 vehicles in order to provide a comprehensive Bus Service to a Capital Citys expectations.

The Commission even reached broad agreement on a framework by which Dublin Bus AND the private sector would work together to develop new services and expand existing ones.

Sadly the work of this commission was rather swiftly binned by Seamus Brennan when he assumed office and he set about achieving a different set of priorities...such as the Credit Card Driving Licence....ah yes...those were the days !

murpha123

i belive any arragements that were made with staff about all these changes i.e new routes loss of buses ect ect were made because dublin bus staff gave up a load of rights regarding new time tables change of shift loss of over time, loss of paid late break and so on,,, this deal was made to save the jobs of 160 new drivers who were to be fired march 2009...... seems to me dublin bus are going to get rid of these drivers now, 12 months on and they think they can still make these changes. i dont think so. staff at dublin bus lost up to 30% of their wages to save the 160 drivers who were all less then 18 months into there service, now if they are fired then all deals are off, strikes will be on the cards. oh and its funny how the green party seem to be cutting the bus service ( almost 200 buses in 12 months) i thought they were all for public transport, last bus cuts i lost my route and had to buy a car. :pac:. . . .. . . . .. . .

lucernarian

murpha123 wrote: »

i belive any arragements that were made with staff about all these changes i.e new routes loss of buses ect ect were made because dublin bus staff gave up a load of rights regarding new time tables change of shift loss of over time, loss of paid late break and so on,,, this deal was made to save the jobs of 160 new drivers who were to be fired march 2009...... seems to me dublin bus are going to get rid of these drivers now, 12 months on and they think they can still make these changes. i dont think so. staff at dublin bus lost up to 30% of their wages to save the 160 drivers who were all less then 18 months into there service, now if they are fired then all deals are off, strikes will be on the cards. oh and its funny how the green party seem to be cutting the bus service ( almost 200 buses in 12 months) i thought they were all for public transport, last bus cuts i lost my route and had to buy a car. :pac:. . . .. . . . .. . .

Rabble rabble rabble.

dfx-

My route will die, but it 'competes' with the Luas and had sustained a 20 minute service off main roads before the Luas. It's now one bus every four hours so it's dead. It's the closest to me though. It's also quicker than the Luas, but not since 2003 has there been any promotion of the route at all, hence it has died...no other route goes within 25 minutes walk of its catchment as it stands..so what route will merge into it...

We have people here arguing about fares stages and doors and that main roads are all that matters..what's the point of getting people from A to B when there's loads of people and fares waiting at C and D? Hope that they walk to A or B or forget that cash?

Soon enough we'll have the mother of all merges - the 70/39/10/46A. A bus route that goes from Dunboyne via Blanchardstown and Phoenix Park to Dun Laoghaire. Followed by the 32A and 123 merging from Malahide to Drimnagh. And the 50 & 27. From Citywest to Clare Hall. All with less stops and with triple doors, but less buses as the main positive thing, of course. You never have to get off a bus, but you'll want to kill yourself by the time the bus gets to either terminus

sdanseo

Fantastic to see that major changes for the better are on the way. The city centre is a mess of buses at the minute, all of them following the same route for a mile or so and branching off, or terminaing at overcrowded stops along the likes of College Green, Abbey St, Marlborough St, Stephen's Green, O'Connell Street etc. Ideally there should be no buses terminating in town. Yes there'll be more driver changes that way but that can be done quickly if organised properly (some chance, granted :rolleyes: )

It's progress. And no compulsory redundancy, which is good - 200 jobs at 40k a year is €8 million. What we need now is a bus that does the canal ring, constantly...call it the M50!

dats_right

sdonn wrote: »

Fantastic to see that major changes for the better are on the way.

What wonderful panglossian optimism..

I must say that the whole Network Direct plans sound suspiciously Orwellian like, á la Ministry of Truth type stuff, in that reducing drivers and buses will lead to an improved service for customers?!! I would have thought that a probable contradiction. In any event, I will reserve judgment until the proposals have been published as I think should those who are already:rolleyes: giving such unqualified support to the as yet unknown proposals.

KC61

From the Irish Times this morning:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0423/1224268953973.html

Cuts in Dublin Bus to have 'no impact on customers'
OLIVIA KELLY

THE REMOVAL of 90 buses from the Dublin Bus fleet and cuts of about 150 staff will have “no impact on customers”, the company has said.

Dublin Bus is undertaking its largest reorganisation of services which it hopes will save more than €12 million a year and encourage more people to take the bus.

The company said it will provide a more frequent service, a greater number of direct and “orbital” routes – eliminating unnecessary journey through the city centre – an amalgamation of some routes and a reduction in the need to change buses on many journeys.

The reduction in city centre traffic, the increase in the number of quality bus corridors (QBCs), and the introduction of bus priority at junctions enabled Dublin Bus to remove 90 buses without impairing the service, a spokeswoman said. “No bus routes are being removed. Ninety buses are going, but this is mainly because traffic volumes in the city have dropped. Previously, because of congestion, we had to have extra buses on to try to meet the time table, but because of the QBCs, bus priority, and critically the bus gate, things are moving much faster.”

While no routes are being axed, several will be amalgamated. No areas will be left without services, but some passengers may find themselves with an increased walk to reach bus stops. On average no customer would be more than 300m from a stop, she said.

Most parts of Dublin will be affected by route changes, but some passengers will face greater change than others.

“There have been major changes in travel patterns . . . and while we have been making smaller changes, a major review of the network was needed,” the spokeswoman said.

Growing suburbs such as Ongar near Blanchardstown would be getting an enhanced service. Other changes would reflect the introduction of new rail or Luas services by serving stations, but not running parallel with a rail route which had seen a considerable modal shift away from buses.

Details of the first new routes will be announced on Monday for services in Blanchardstown, Stillorgan and Lucan, but the changes will not be implemented until July.

The revised network would include more orbital services, which avoid the city centre and more cross-town services which would eliminate buses terminating in the centre and driving back from whence they came.

“There will be 30 per cent less bus flow on O’Connell Street and 25 per cent less on Westmoreland Street. Passengers whose destination isn’t the centre will be able to get from one side of the city to the other without changing buses.”

Redundancies will be voluntary, the company said. A spokesman for Siptu said he had been assured terms and conditions would not be affected.

Opposition transport spokesmen were critical of the plan to cut bus numbers.

“It is very hard to believe that commuters can look forward to a better service with the loss of up to 90 buses from the fleet,” Labour’s Tommy Broughan said.

Fine Gael’s Fergus O’Dowd said the numbers didn’t “stack up” for passengers. “The company is axing routes . . . How can that be of benefit to anyone?”

angel01

Sorry, am a bit confused, I have looked through that sticky at the top but didnt see your name but KC, are you a driver for Dublin Bus or involved with them somehow?

Cookie_Monster

link by KC61 wrote:

Other changes would reflect the introduction of new rail or Luas services by serving stations, but not running parallel with a rail route which had seen a considerable modal shift away from buses.

hmmm... I wonder what that means? obviously there are routes talked about here already impacted by the Luas, but what about the likes of the 4,7,8 which all run directly parallel to the DART for much of their route, will we see an impact here maybe?

No bus routes are being removed

frankly I don't believe this either, but we'll have to wait for full implementation to see. I reckon this first phase won't have cuts but later ones will.
Clearly the amalgamation of 39/10/46a will see parts of their original route removed somewhere along the line

KC61

Not involved with them whatsoever, nor do I work in the industry.

I am a daily public transport user (usually minimum 4 buses per day) and long time observer of public transport in Ireland. I would wholeheartedly support the recommendations of the Deloitte Report, which if you have not read - then look at the executive summary.

Long time advocate of complete network redesign with customer focussed timetables and better utilisation of the fleet.

Corruptedmorals

I hope they don't get rid of the 66B. It serves a different part of Leixlip to the 66, then merges....and leaves 2 minutes after the 66 so it will often get into town having had no more than 10 passengers. It's really handy flying past busstops. The 66 and the B leave together, and the second 66 and the 66A leave together...not to mention the 67's and the 25's..when they all join up together in Lucan it's like a big race with 4 busses to get into town first.. I'd welcome them being spaced out a bit more, but not losing bus frequency. While there are 3 busses an hour I can get, if I miss the 66's leaving at 25 to, which arrives about 10 to, the next bus is not until 20 past.

angel01

KC61 wrote: »

Not involved with them whatsoever, nor do I work in the industry.

I am a daily public transport user (usually minimum 4 buses per day) and long time observer of public transport in Ireland. I would wholeheartedly support the recommendations of the Deloitte Report, which if you have not read - then look at the executive summary.

Long time advocate of complete network redesign with customer focussed timetables and better utilisation of the fleet.

Ok thanks for clarifying.

KC61

This is something that I am genuinely passionate about, as I do believe there is a huge opportunity to change the bus service in Dublin if the Deloitte report is implemented properly. It's something that I have given much thought to over the years, based on my interest and observations elsewhere of best practice.

It's not just about redesigning the network, it's a whole package:

- providing real time information at stops, online, and on your mobile
- redesigning timetables to make them appropriate to each stop
- providing new maps
- implementing a journey planner
- co-ordinating schedules along corridors
- offering more cross-city options
- providing controllers with GPS based information and allowing them to make faster decisions
- providing additional bus priority at junctions along bus corridors

That's why when I see posts that are instantly negative without any substantial thought being given to what is behind this then I do get a little passionate!

This is a turning point for the bus in Dublin and if it does done right then I think we are all going to be better off.

murphaph

I'd say the 66B could be axed tbh. I lived in Elton Court for a year or so at one time and know how handy the B was but walking to the 66 isn't going to kill anyone and I'd imagine it's a similar walk for many estates in Celbridge to reach the 67/A. I'd imagine that the 67A itself could be axed...anyone living in Maynooth, who can't catch a 66 would be within the catchment area of the railway station. Would affect students in Salesians though.

As regards buses turning the asphalt to mush on O'Connell Street (and everywhere else) Alek, the "powers that be" could do worse than simply copying the setup in Berlin....the powers that be in Berlin KNOW that bus braking and accerleration has a detrimental effect on the asphalt, so they don't use asphalt where buses do this (ie, at bus stops!). They use a special concrete which is much stronger than regular asphalt and doesn't break up at all. You can clearly see that it is a different material, a solid slab on concrete.

AARRRRGH

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Never going to happen.

The most frequent bus at the moment is the 46A and at rush hour the frequency is 4 mins. How they will average 5 when the best is 4 is beyond me. Unless this refers to the useless point that every 5 mins a bus will go past you at your stop (even though you may be waiting for 1 of 10 routes that go by, it'll still be 5 min frequency)

4 x 41b buses a day ).
I think you are dead right. They will have a job on their hands getting the average down 5 mins when some places have a wait time between buses of 5 hours.

Look here at Lispopple cross in Dublin. Only the 41b serves it an there are 5 buses a day, several hours apart.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/41b/

They could easily send the 41C and 41A (which is still running but not on any timetables) out to Rolestown too. Move the terminus for these to Rolestown. Then on the way in and out Swing up to Swords Manor and back down. Then that whole road would get a decent service.

Even a shuttle between Ashbourne, Swords, Malahide and back all day would provide the people that live in that area with a regular bus service. My sister lives near Lispopple and everytime I go out to see her I pick up OAPs thumbing to get into Swords, because the next bus is in 5 hours.

Im sure its similar in other areas too.

KC61

AARRRRGH wrote: »

3 x 41b buses a day.
I think you are dead right. They will have a job on their hands getting the average down 5 mins when some places have a wait time between buses of 5 hours.

Look here at Lispopple cross in Dublin. Only the 41b serves it an there are 5 buses a day, several hours apart.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/41b/

They could easily send the 41C and 41A (which is still running but not on any timetables) out to Rolestown too. Then that whole road would get a decent service.

Even a shuttle between Ashbourne, Swords, Malahide and back all day would provide the people that live in that area with a regular bus service. My sister lives near Lispopple and everytime I go out to see her I pick up OAPs thumbing to get into Swords, because the next bus is in 5 hours.

Im sure its similar in other areas too.

The average wait of 5 minutes I would take as referring to along each QBC.

Quite obviously every single individual bus route will not be like that.

I cannot imagine that the Lispopple area would have a huge demand for a high frequency bus service - the population density is not there.

AlekSmart

As regards buses turning the asphalt to mush on O'Connell Street (and everywhere else) Alek, the "powers that be" could do worse than simply copying the setup in Berlin....the powers that be in Berlin KNOW that bus braking and accerleration has a detrimental effect on the asphalt, so they don't use asphalt where buses do this (ie, at bus stops!). They use a special concrete which is much stronger than regular asphalt and doesn't break up at all. You can clearly see that it is a different material, a solid slab on concrete.

Very good point Murphaph,however the track record of Powers that Be Irish style is VASTLY different to our fellow EU German bretheren.

It`s worth pointing out that Busdrivers have been noting this "subsidence" on QBC routes for quite some time (The Stillorgan Road is similarly afflicted,although some tar patching has been carried out).

However,for a Busdriver to make an observation to a "Power that Be" immediately reduces the stature of that "Power" and it is exceedingly rare,therefore,for Busdrivers opinions or suggestions to be sought much less acted upon.

Perhaps this element is being forced upon Dublin Bus by the physical forces of their own fleet...?

“There will be :eek: 30 per cent less bus flow on O’Connell Street :eek: and 25 per cent less on Westmoreland Street. Passengers whose destination isn’t the centre will be able to get from one side of the city to the other without changing buses.”

Hmmmmm..... :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

The average wait of 5 minutes I would take as referring to along each QBC.

Quite obviously every single individual bus route will not be like that.

I would take average to mean exactly that, average across the whole network, not just along select high density corridors. otherwise its meaningless, which frankly it is anyway IMO, I don't see the point in advertising that 12 buses an hour will go by me if there is still only one I can get to my destination.

AARRRRGH

KC61 wrote: »

The average wait of 5 minutes I would take as referring to along each QBC.

Quite obviously every single individual bus route will not be like that.

I cannot imagine that the Lispopple area would have a huge demand for a high frequency bus service - the population density is not there.

Nobody asked for high frequency. Just a bus service where there isnt 5 hours between buses, so OAPs dont have to walk and thumb lifts on a main road, would be nice. With the 41, 41A, 41C all terminating 5 mins down the road it wouldnt be hard to terminate at least 1 an hour in Rolestown.

So now we're only talking about QBCs. And the rest of the population can get stuffed.
Well done Dublin Bus.

AARRRRGH

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I would take average to mean exactly that, average across the whole network, not just along select high density corridors. otherwise its meaningless, which frankly it is anyway IMO, I don't see the point in advertising that 12 buses an hour will go by me if there is still only one I can get to my destination.

Yes, there was nothing saying "Average wait time along QBCs ONLYis 5 mins"

murphaph

AARRRRGH wrote: »

4 x 41b buses a day ).
I think you are dead right. They will have a job on their hands getting the average down 5 mins when some places have a wait time between buses of 5 hours.

Look here at Lispopple cross in Dublin. Only the 41b serves it an there are 5 buses a day, several hours apart.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/41b/

They could easily send the 41C and 41A (which is still running but not on any timetables) out to Rolestown too. Move the terminus for these to Rolestown. Then on the way in and out Swing up to Swords Manor and back down. Then that whole road would get a decent service.

Even a shuttle between Ashbourne, Swords, Malahide and back all day would provide the people that live in that area with a regular bus service. My sister lives near Lispopple and everytime I go out to see her I pick up OAPs thumbing to get into Swords, because the next bus is in 5 hours.

Im sure its similar in other areas too.

Outlying areas like this have an equally ****ty service in German cities. It's simply not possible to provide a high frequency service to people in such areas.

AlekSmart

So now we're only talking about QBCs. And the rest of the population can get stuffed.

As details become clearer it`s looking as if this could be correct.

For example routes such as the 3 to Larkhill and the 11 to Wadelai Park appear to be set for the chop.

It remains to be seen whether the age old "all politics is local" mantra will work this time

KC61

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Nobody asked for high frequency. Just a bus service where there isnt 5 hours between buses, so OAPs dont have to walk and thumb lifts on a main road, would be nice. With the 41, 41A, 41C all terminating 5 mins down the road it wouldnt be hard to terminate at least 1 an hour in Rolestown.

So now we're only talking about QBCs. And the rest of the population can get stuffed.
Well done Dublin Bus.

I cannot really see a route like the 41b expanding unless the government is prepared to pay for it.

angel01

murphaph wrote: »

Outlying areas like this have an equally ****ty service in German cities. It's simply not possible to provide a high frequency service to people in such areas.

Sorry but why do you keep bring Germany up? This isn't Germany. Why can't we focus on routes here and what affects area's in Dublin instead.

KC61

AlekSmart wrote: »

As details become clearer it`s looking as if this could be correct.

For example routes such as the 3 to Larkhill and the 11 to Wadelai Park appear to be set for the chop.

It remains to be seen whether the age old "all politics is local" mantra will work this time

I don't think that it is a case of "get stuffed" but I think there has to be a balance here. What are the loadings like between Larkhill and the Swords Road or Wadelai Park and DCU to take your examples?

Do they warrant the same level of service as is currently provided?

Would a better service on the main road with a lower level of frequency into the estates be acceptable?

These are the sort of questions that arise - I wouldn't advocate removing the bus service completely, but I'm quite sure that the majority of people could cope with a short walk to the main road if they knew that they would have a better more frequent service there than they have within their estate.