Dublin Bus Network Review

paulm17781

Dev null, when you say putting the customer first. Do you mean long slow routes that stop everywhere and go down every single back street so everyone has a stop within arms length. Or a decent service that gets people from A to B quickly?

I couldn't care if my bus stop was 10 minutes walk away as long as the service was frequent and the journey quick.

KD345

It was great to read about the forthcoming changes this morning. It's been a long time coming and should really make a difference to bus travel in Dublin. It's amazing to see so much negativity towards something that is being designed to make things better.

I'm sure I'm not alone in getting frustrated at seeing 15 buses parked along the walls of the quays, or watching 6 tri-axel buses trying to park safely on Hawkins Street. Or the frustration to be traveling to Lucan and having to wait 20 minutes only to see a convoy of 25a/66 buses arrive together.

What this change will do is give Dubliners better access to all parts of the city. I'm sure anybody coming in from Blanchardstown will be delighted at being able to travel to Stephen's Green or Baggot Street on the 39. Equally, it will be of great benefit for passengers coming from Stillorgan Road to travel across to Dorset Street/Phoenix Park. The city centre bus gate makes it easier than ever to operate cross city services.

The current bus network in Dublin is old, hasn't moved with the changes in the city and was not attractive to use. This network redesign along with real time passenger information will make the bus an attractive option.

Also, on the issue of reducing staff, it is great to see this will be happening on a "voluntary redundancy and natural turnover" basis.

cson

That's a very fair point; I'd prefer to be walking for 10 minutes than standing waiting for 15 at a stop outside my door.

schemingbohemia

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Where did you here that the 8 is being cut? Does this mean that the 59 and 7D are also going to be removed?

ah i only put that in to see if you were watching???? i've no idea about the 8 being cancelled but given the amount of people on it, my personal opinion is that it should be cancelled/merged.

with regard to the 128 and other buses using rathmines/rathgar i've felt for a long time that rathmines road should be changed to a contra-flow system, probably not the right term but in the morning should have 2 lanes going into town (as is) but in the evening have 2 lanes heading out of town 1 bus lane and 1 car lane so that the middle lane would change direction as it were. i've seen it done on bridges in other countries and i'm sure on normal roads too. has anyone seen it done in the UK?

why is angel01 so secretive about what bus she/he's talking about? i get the 7 myself (though the 4a sometimes with a bit of a walk, or even the 46a with a longer walk) or the DART, so I'm lucky in that regard that I have options.

KD345

paulm17781 wrote: »

Dev null, when you say putting the customer first. Do you mean long slow routes that stop everywhere and go down every single back street so everyone has a stop within arms length. Or a decent service that gets people from A to B quickly?

I couldn't care if my bus stop was 10 minutes walk away as long as the service was frequent and the journey quick.

I think Dublin Bus have made it clear that they will be making routes as simple as possible.

From RTE:

The overall number of routes is to be increased, but some existing routes will be straightened out with fewer diversions off quality bus corridors, while others will be combined.

paulm17781

KD345 wrote: »

I think Dublin Bus have made it clear that they will be making routes as simple as possible.

From RTE:

I know, I was aiming my question at someone who seems to think the new routes won't be "for the people".

munchkin_utd

KD345 wrote: »

I think Dublin Bus have made it clear that they will be making routes as simple as possible.

From RTE: From RTE:
Quote:

The overall number of routes is to be increased, but some existing routes will be straightened out with fewer diversions off quality bus corridors, while others will be combined.

Only in Ireland can you simplify things by making them more complicated!!

More bus routes = simpler system ????

Actually, this might be possible despite my sarchastic tone!!

If longer distance routes were rationalised by merging routes somewhat, you would have less numbers in use
BUT then say you had alternating normal and express services along that corridor. Every other bus leaving the suburbs is either an express or a regular bus that stops 100s of times.
(Theres already X busses in the morning peak that are so popular that they often stop taking on passengers before turning express)

So, if there were less route corridors but every longer route a combination of normal and Xpress services, then you would have more routes but a simpler network!!

patrickbrophy18

With the installation of a QBC on Glenageary Road Upper and the completion of the Monkstown Ring Road, I would assume that some part of the bus network review will be keeping these infrastructural improvements in mind. However, I don't know if the network review will be beneficial if at all for areas such as Dalkey or Sandycove (and yes, I know these areas have the DART). I just think that some sort of connectivity to the Green Luas line would be needed so that Dundrum is easier to get to.

Don't even get me started on Blanchardstown. I am only all too aware of how farcical Blanchardstown's bus arrangement is at present. I worked out in Mulhuddart for a year and often found the 38/a service a nightmare with the amount of detours it often took. At times, it went through every neighborhood in the area which I found intensely frustrating to the extent where I would get off the bus at Phoenix Park Station to catch a Commuter train. Damastown, Tyrellstown, Ballycoolin, ITB and the whole f**king lot.:mad:. Good old Short-Hop Bus and Rail Ticket, where would I be without one?:D

devnull

cson wrote: »

One door for almost 100 people if full really puts the stupidity into perspective.

Agreed, the way the bendy buses and the tri-axles are used is ridiculous, used properly they would be far more of an asset than at present.,

paulm17781 wrote: »

I would hugely disagree, there is never a stop that far away. There are far too many bus stops on each route, look at RTE, it has 3 stops along it!

I hate to break it to you, but not every area is as well served as Donnybrook is, the closer areas to the city centre are like this, but ones further out in my experience may only have one or two stops very far spread out, you need to get out and see more of the network if you feel it is like this everywhere, for large parts of it, yes it is, but not all so it is wrong to generalize.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

This initiative is all about putting the customer first. The main problem with Dublin Bus is frequency, punctuality and journey times, and they are trying to address this. Improving and regularising bus services along the busiest corridors is clearly going to provide a better bus service for most bus users. Every time Dublin Bus tries to change a route for the better, some people are going to be worse off, but that doesn't mean they should have a veto. No built-up part of Dublin is out of walking distance of a bus stop now - why do you think that will change, when Dublin Bus have said it won't?

Yes, the big corridors are important for the people who use them, but some routes carry thousands of passengers a day and do not use QBC's as there are none and are nowhere near any routes that are, are you suggesting these routes who carry a large amount of passengers should be canceled as they are not linked to a QBC, or a QBC route should be extended to them even if it means the person living on a non QBC now has to go a more indirect route to work that takes them twice as long?

paulm17781 wrote: »

Dev null, when you say putting the customer first. Do you mean long slow routes that stop everywhere and go down every single back street so everyone has a stop within arms length. Or a decent service that gets people from A to B quickly?

I couldn't care if my bus stop was 10 minutes walk away as long as the service was frequent and the journey quick.

The thing is A to B is not the same for everyone and not everyone lives on a QBC corridor, indeed some routes go nowhere near one and if they did go through one which is far away it would significantly effect their journey times. What do we do about these people? Cancel their services or divert them onto a QBC to take them twice as long to get them to work to serve the people on the QBC rather than getting the people from these areas to work using the most direct route despite the fact their services are fully packed out. If you cancel some of these services, which are the only services serving some areas and if they were gone they would be a long walk away from any other services, what do the people do then?

angel01

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

With the installation of a QBC on Glenageary Road Upper and the completion of the Monkstown Ring Road, I would assume that some part of the bus network review will be keeping these infrastructural improvements in mind. However, I don't know if the network review will be beneficial if at all for areas such as Dalkey or Sandycove (and yes, I know these areas have the DART). I just think that some sort of connectivity to the Green Luas line would be needed so that Dundrum is easier to get to.

Don't even get me started on Blanchardstown. I am only all too aware of how farcical Blanchardstown's bus arrangement is at present. I worked out in Mulhuddart for a year and often found the 38/a service a nightmare with the amount of detours it often took. At times, it went through every neighborhood in the area which I found intensely frustrating to the extent where I would get off the bus at Phoenix Park Station to catch a Commuter train. Damastown, Tyrellstown, Ballycoolin, ITB and the whole f**king lot.:mad:. Good old Short-Hop Bus and Rail Ticket, where would I be without one?:D

But these areas have many options of transport? A lot of areas are nowhere near a train line and have no option of getting anything other than a bus so why should these area's get more when they already have a lot of existing options?

If you lived there, you can get a bus/train to town and get a bus/luas to Dundrum, it is not that difficult, you cannot expect a bus just to serve every place that you want to get to. Currently to get to my workplace, I have to take 2 buses and a luas, it is just part and parcel of my day.

You really are lucky that you have a choice.

devnull

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Don't even get me started on Blanchardstown. I am only all too aware of how farcical Blanchardstown's bus arrangement is at present. I worked out in Mulhuddart for a year and often found the 38/a service a nightmare with the amount of detours it often took. At times, it went through every neighborhood in the area which I found intensely frustrating to the extent where I would get off the bus at Phoenix Park Station to catch a Commuter train. Damastown, Tyrellstown, Ballycoolin, ITB and the whole f**king lot.:mad:. Good old Short-Hop Bus and Rail Ticket, where would I be without one?:D

There are large numbers of people who work in the areas you outline, tens of thousands infact which is why the tri axle services are on the 37/38/39 for instance, the vast majority of which people have no choice to use the bus as there is no train stations in Damastown, Tyrrelstown. Ballycoolin and barely a bus service to the Institute of Technology apart from the one a day 38B. Are you suggesting as it inconvinces someone who, you admit has other options then the people who have no choice should lose out?

If we are merging routes and making cutbacks to certain areas being served, the ones that duplicate large paths of rail, dart and luas lines should be the first to go, people who can use alternative means from one place to another should in no way be a bigger priority than those who may be completely cut off.

Yes it would be nice if all areas are linked together such as you describe, but no bus company is going to be able to serve every particular journey without a change somewhere along the line, and certainly in these times many of us would love to have the dart as an option to the bus even if the bus was less often because of it, it's far better than bus only!

murphaph

angel01 wrote: »

But these areas have many options of transport? A lot of areas are nowhere near a train line and have no option of getting anything other than a bus so why should these area's get more when they already have a lot of existing options?

If you lived there, you can get a bus/train to town and get a bus/luas to Dundrum, it is not that difficult, you cannot expect a bus just to serve every place that you want to get to. Currently to get to my workplace, I have to take 2 buses and a luas, it is just part and parcel of my day.

You really are lucky that you have a choice.

Will you complain if the network review adds those two buses together, or even if it combines the whole lot and leaves you with one mode of transport on your journey to work?

devnull

In my experience sometimes the bus can be quicker than the red line, but if Angel01 is using the green line to Sandyford or something like this, I would suggest that the bus to Sandyford from Stephens Green etc would take much longer than the tram, so it would probably make things worse by going bus as the green line cannot complete with the bus for speed, although the red line thanks to it's intersections with roads tends to be held up much more by traffic.

I go to Sandyford quite often in my old job until March, and when the luas was out a few days or I got the bus for various reasons, it took around an hour or so from Stephens Green as opposed to 20 minutes or so on the tram, not because of the indirect route but more the traffic around there.

angel01

devnull wrote: »

In my experience sometimes the bus can be quicker than the red line, but if Angel01 is using the green line to Sandyford or something like this, I would suggest that the bus to Sandyford from Stephens Green etc would take much longer than the tram, so it would probably make things worse by going bus as the green line cannot complete with the bus for speed, although the red line thanks to it's intersections with roads tends to be held up much more by traffic.

Yes, I have got the bus from city centre to Sandyford and it takes about twice or even three times as long to get there using the bus due to the traffic congestion and anyway, the bus services for there are not very regular. How can that compare to using the luas which will take roughly 22 minutes or so?

KC61

Devnull - again I'd say that I don't honestly believe that routes such as the 38 or 40D which are not the main corridor routes will necessarily be cut back. Why would the bus company cut routes that already carry large volumes?

I am at a loss to try and figure out why buses would be re-routed via a QBC to take longer? Both yourself and Angel01 have mentioned this and I am still trying to figure this out? Where are you thinking of?

Most routes going into/out of the city uses a QBC for part of the journey already, with a very small number of exceptions.

paulm17781

Wow, reverse NIMBYism. I have no sympathy if you can't walk to a bus stop. I have seen a great deal of the network, Donnybrook sprung to mind as it used to take ages getting through, I have rarely seen a place with as few bus stops as you describe.

Further to that, did it ever occur in your NIMBY head that your bus stop may not be affected, it may only be the ones where there are too many?

murphaph

angel01 wrote: »

Yes, I have got the bus from city centre to Sandyford and it takes about twice or even three times as long to get there using the bus due to the traffic congestion and anyway, the bus services for there are not very regular. How can that compare to using the luas which will take roughly 22 minutes or so?

I think your main problem Angel is that you live and work on opposite sides of the city. You knew that Dublin has no real mass transit system like say, Berlin (in which case it is easily doable) but you choose to live and work in these places. Perhaps you should live somewhere that doesn't require so many changes.

devnull

I was just using the 40's as an example, I could give others. It is not the whole reasoning behind the argument, it is more so my argument that there are other areas that are also like this and they need to be preserved, in cases such as the example I have given, rather than doing something silly such as piggy backing them on to routes which use more of a QBC already but are longer than the current route.

It has been argued befor by DB staff who openly admitted it with a meeting with the parties involved from the area that it would make sense to extend the 38A to the current 40D terminus, seeing as the 38/A and the 38C take the same route apart from one serves Tyrrelstown and one serves Damstown, therefore reducing the need for these two variants. It would then also serve Ballycoolin like 38's in the morning, meaning the 40D would be redundant but an increased frequency on the 38 side would mean a better service for those on the QBC, but those travelling from Tyrrelstown would be subject to a longer journey that is not as direct.

But it would tick all of the boxes about what DB want to do, higher frequency route, more services through QBC's, less route diversions, and less duplications, but the people on the end of the route would get a raw deal. We need to think about the impact it has on everyone, and how each set of passengers from each route are effected so everyone has an appropriate level of service, not just the ones who are right next to or on QBCs. I'm all in favour of reducing duplication, but it's need to be done in a way that it is fair.

devnull

paulm17781 wrote: »

Wow, reverse NIMBYism. I have no sympathy if you can't walk to a bus stop. I have seen a great deal of the network, Donnybrook sprung to mind as it used to take ages getting through, I have rarely seen a place with as few bus stops as you describe.

Further to that, did it ever occur in your NIMBY head that your bus stop may not be affected, it may only be the ones where there are too many?

Donnybrook is exceptionally well served by buses though, and there are too many stops there, that I won't disagree on, but not all areas are like this, it's nothing to do with what you describe, there are in balances in gaps between bus stops for sure, some of them are stupidly close together such as the ones on Ballycoolin Road before it was dug up but not everywhere.

markpb

murphaph wrote: »

I think your main problem Angel is that you live and work on opposite sides of the city. You knew that Dublin has no real mass transit system like say, Berlin (in which case it is easily doable) but you choose to live and work in these places. Perhaps you should live somewhere that doesn't require so many changes.

I don't think that's entirely fair - it's not easy to move if you've bought a house or apartment, have kids or have a job which isn't widely available. At least she lives in the city - if she was living in Kildare or Louth and complaining, then I'd have a problem. People expecting to commute around a city isn't a bad thing. It isn't possible for everyone to live right beside where they work.

FWIW I occasionally get a 46b from Sandyford to the city centre in the evenings and it's only about 5-10 minutes slower than the Luas. In fact, for me, it's faster because I work near the 46b terminus so I have a 7 minute walk to the Luas and a 5+ minute wait. The bus also crosses the city which the Luas doesn't

munchkin_utd

From irish times breaking news

Outlining the changes to Blanchardstown’s existing service, the spokeswoman said research showed there is “very strong demand” on the part of passengers for a service which would take them in to the city centre and on to south east quadrant of the city.

The 37, 38 and 39 routes will be amalgamated to service outlying areas of growth such as Ongar and will deliver passengers through the city centre, Ballsbridge, Leeson St and on to Belfield.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0422/breaking22.html

devnull

The big problem with the 46B, whilst I admit it is quicker than the 11 and 5, is the times it runs to me are silly - they seem to suit people who start at around 10 and finish around four, if you are on 9-5.30 shifts which is the standard hours in a lot of places it's pretty inconvenient.

Times to City Centre in Evening
15:30
16:00
16:15
16:30
16:50
17:45
19:50

Times to Sandyford in Morning:
7:04
8:25
8:38
8:55
9:15
9:40

Ideally there needs to be more earlier buses in the morning to Sandyford between 7.04 and 8.25 and at least one more in the evening after 5.45 as the current ones are not that friendly. Whilst the 11 does take longer, the timetables are much more friendly for your typical working person.

devnull

munchkin_utd wrote: »

From irish times breaking news


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0422/breaking22.html

How will the 37/38/39 be merged when they all serve areas that are not served by each other, with Ongar on the 39, Damastown on the 38 Carpenterstown on the 37. Are we going to have one long route that takes forever from the North side to the City center going around all of these areas, or are we going to drop some areas completely?

Either way it is going to hugely put someone worse off.

munchkin_utd

devnull wrote: »

How will the 37/38/39 be merged when they all serve areas that are not served by each other, with Ongar on the 39, Damastown on the 38 Carpenterstown on the 37. Are we going to have one long route that takes forever from the North side to the City center going around all of these areas, or are we going to drop some areas completely?

Either way it is going to hugely put someone worse off.

God knows what is meant.

My guess is that:
a) the routes will possibly become one number but an a/b/c variation of each other
b) their route between Belfield and Castleknock (or halfway house) will be the exactly the same. Only in the northern suburbs would they split? At the very least, most of the journey will be identical. And hopefully the tedious diversion that the 37 takes via Stoneybatters lovely narrow lanes to be dropped.

NOTE: what I mention above is roughly what happened on the 69/70/71 in Belfast (Malone Road Corridor past Queens University) during their reorganisation and it is working well for them as far as i can gather.
It was an obvious step but it took the bus company to sit down and critically examine what they were doing to come up with it.

Polar101

devnull wrote: »

How will the 37/38/39 be merged when they all serve areas that are not served by each other, with Ongar on the 39, Damastown on the 38 Carpenterstown on the 37. Are we going to have one long route that takes forever from the North side to the City center going around all of these areas, or are we going to drop some areas completely?

Either way it is going to hugely put someone worse off.

Doesn't make a lot of sense on the paper - but it would be possible to extend the 37 from Ongar road to Ongar, and the 38 from Damastown to Ongar. Then they could run a 39a/b/c kind of service from there. Of course without any route adjustments the service wouldn't improve, but it doesn't sound too different from the previous plans that never took place. Anyway, it will be easier to speculate when more info is released.

cleveland browne

Ok
Alot of hysterics here KC61 is right no point getting yourself worked up over guess work and rumours.

The list i gave earlier is all that is really known at this stage. The exact routing of these new routes was not revealed but they did mention straightening and realigning. Basically they were saying that these cross city routes will take mostly direct route on QBC as much as possible with high frequencies.
They also mentioned new termini.

There will also be new routes including a new orbital route and my guess is maybe some kind of feeder routes for the main corridors but that is only a guess.
All will be revealed next week.

patrickbrophy18

devnull wrote: »

There are large numbers of people who work in the areas you outline, tens of thousands infact which is why the tri axle services are on the 37/38/39 for instance, the vast majority of which people have no choice to use the bus as there is no train stations in Damastown, Tyrrelstown. Ballycoolin and barely a bus service to the Institute of Technology apart from the one a day 38B. Are you suggesting as it inconvinces someone who, you admit has other options then the people who have no choice should lose out?

If we are merging routes and making cutbacks to certain areas being served, the ones that duplicate large paths of rail, dart and luas lines should be the first to go, people who can use alternative means from one place to another should in no way be a bigger priority than those who may be completely cut off.

I am in no way suggesting that the areas be cut off. I just think that the buses should be better routed. For example, from the N3 call at Crown Plaza, Mulhuddart and Damastown. If going to Damastown via Castleknock, use the road beside Phoenix Park instead of Auburn Avenue then use Blanchardstown Village, Crown Plaza, Mulhuddart and Damastown. Similar options would be carried out for buses to Tyrrellstown and Ballycoolin taking into account the intermediate neighborhoods with the most direct route through them. There is one section of the 38 route where it goes down a road in Mulhuddart Village over a bridge too narrow for cars let alone buses. As it isn't at all hemmed in by houses, it should be widened. I can remember that quite a few times when I was on the bus on this section of the journey, it took 10-15 minutes to get down. The pathetic thing is that the section of road is a small fraction of a mile in length.

KC61

devnull wrote: »

How will the 37/38/39 be merged when they all serve areas that are not served by each other, with Ongar on the 39, Damastown on the 38 Carpenterstown on the 37. Are we going to have one long route that takes forever from the North side to the City center going around all of these areas, or are we going to drop some areas completely?

Either way it is going to hugely put someone worse off.

How I would read this is that the three routes will operate in a co-ordinated schedule along the Navan Road and then split out as appropriate to Castleknock, Clonsilla/Ongar and Corduff/Damastown.

At the moment they are all scheduled independently of one another meaning a 37, 38 and 39 can all leave Hawkins Street simultaneously - merging them onto one big schedule means a far better and co-ordinated service.

The estates in Blanchardstown are all still going to have to be serviced by the buses but perhaps the 39, for example may be split in two with maybe more 39A services?

Similarly areas like Corduff are still going to need to be serviced.

KC61

devnull wrote: »

The big problem with the 46B, whilst I admit it is quicker than the 11 and 5, is the times it runs to me are silly - they seem to suit people who start at around 10 and finish around four, if you are on 9-5.30 shifts which is the standard hours in a lot of places it's pretty inconvenient.

Times to City Centre in Evening
15:30
16:00
16:15
16:30
16:50
17:45
19:50

Times to Sandyford in Morning:
7:04
8:25
8:38
8:55
9:15
9:40

Ideally there needs to be more earlier buses in the morning to Sandyford between 7.04 and 8.25 and at least one more in the evening after 5.45 as the current ones are not that friendly. Whilst the 11 does take longer, the timetables are much more friendly for your typical working person.

The real problem is that the 46b is geared for passengers going in the other direction - i.e. working in the city. This is something that hopefully the network review will address.

KC61

devnull wrote: »

I was just using the 40's as an example, I could give others. It is not the whole reasoning behind the argument, it is more so my argument that there are other areas that are also like this and they need to be preserved, in cases such as the example I have given, rather than doing something silly such as piggy backing them on to routes which use more of a QBC already but are longer than the current route.

It has been argued befor by DB staff who openly admitted it with a meeting with the parties involved from the area that it would make sense to extend the 38A to the current 40D terminus, seeing as the 38/A and the 38C take the same route apart from one serves Tyrrelstown and one serves Damstown, therefore reducing the need for these two variants. It would then also serve Ballycoolin like 38's in the morning, meaning the 40D would be redundant but an increased frequency on the 38 side would mean a better service for those on the QBC, but those travelling from Tyrrelstown would be subject to a longer journey that is not as direct.

But it would tick all of the boxes about what DB want to do, higher frequency route, more services through QBC's, less route diversions, and less duplications, but the people on the end of the route would get a raw deal. We need to think about the impact it has on everyone, and how each set of passengers from each route are effected so everyone has an appropriate level of service, not just the ones who are right next to or on QBCs. I'm all in favour of reducing duplication, but it's need to be done in a way that it is fair.

Why would you make the 40D redundant? It serves all the major business parks and is the fastest route to the city.

The Finglas Corridor has, to an extent, already had its review. I genuinely cannot see any reason for removing a route like the 40D. It ticks the boxes too as it operates along the Finglas QBC.