National Postcodes to be introduced

L1011

ukoda wrote: »

My point is still valid, Ireland's eircode will be tiny in comparison to the rest of Europe's info

That's your guess only, and considering the figures you've also guessed at so far, there's little reason to trust the logic behind it.

SpaceTime

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Agreed - presume that's the same in other countries where information updates are provided on postcode changes, building developments, etc?

With the Eircode, that will mean a new code every time a new address is built/created. However, other addresses/codes won't be changed as a result.

In other countries, both the code for the new addresses, and potentially other ones around them are also changed - a much more elaborate exercise, and presumably more costly between updating, and informing relevant addresses of their new postcodes.

Not really, most European codes just reference an area of a map or a townland. They mostly never change and are just used in combination with the first line of the address.

The only place I'm aware of that assigns new codes is the UK because they're based on postal routes so new estates would potentially have to be assigned new codes.

In France you might only get a new code if a new suburb or very large campus got built.
Like a business park might occasionally have its own post code due to likely volumes of mail.

In Ireland every new building will have a new code and there's no way of predicting what that code is from the location which means that you'll need at least monthly updates to maps.

If you took the building boom levels of construction we'd have been adding 100,000 new codes every year.

You could easily be looking at 10,000 code additions every 12 months in normal times.

That's not going to be very attractive to mapping companies, especially if the data is expensive.

MBSnr

MYOB wrote: »

That's your guess only, and considering the figures you've also guessed at so far, there's little reason to trust the logic behind it.

This is pure speculation (as I don't own a device) but from my reading most basic sat nav devices manage to include a map of the UK and Ireland. If the device has limited storage ability then perhaps they'd release an Ireland only map (inc NI) which would require removal of the UK map to fit on the device (with Eircode). For newer devices that come with a European map and more storage it probably won't be an issue.

As for the constant updates required - well I'd be hesitant to say constant... It's a good bet that a large % of those who have the ability to, don't update their sat nav maps anyhow, meaning that the detail they have for the certain road layouts is incorrect. So if Eircode comes to TomTom/Garmin etc then the biggest issue is getting them to update their device to have that data in the first place.

ukoda

MYOB wrote: »

That's your guess only, and considering the figures you've also guessed at so far, there's little reason to trust the logic behind it.

Well use your own logic on these figures:

UK
Postcodes: 1.7 million
Addresses: 29 million
Its linked to the Royal Mail PAF database
Does it fit easily on a sat nav?: Yes

Ireland
Postcodes: 2.2 million
Addresses: 2.2 million
its linked to the Eircode ECAD database
Does it fit on a sat nav?: ??????

SpaceTime

2.2m pieces of data linked to GPS coordinates isn't that much raw data really.

My concern is the price and how well any API will be built for connecting to the database.

If it's too expensive or too cumbersome, it won't get integrated into maps.

I can also see companies charging extra for Irish postcode look up on your device

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

2.2m pieces of data linked to GPS coordinates isn't that much raw data really.

My concern is the price and how well any API will be built for connecting to the database.

If it's too expensive or too cumbersome, it won't get integrated into maps.

I can also see companies charging extra for Irish postcode look up on your device

Have a look at the eircode website. They actually already provide details on how you will get the database and how it's updated

In summary
You buy the database and get a copy for your own use, they send you 3 updates a year via a customer portal that you can log into and download

But the pricing isn't out yet.

heres the part taken directly from www.eircode.ie

Eircode offers two products for purchase;

Eircode Address File (ECAF) contains the Eircode and USP Postal Address
Eircode Address Database (ECAD) contains the Eircode, USP Postal Address, aliases address information and geo-coordinates
Each product contains all 2.2 million address points in the Republic of Ireland, 1.8 million residential and 400,000 business addresses, each with its own unique Eircode.

Please note: the ECAD and ECAF is a database of delivery points and does not contain the names of private individuals.

When you purchase an annual licence to use the ECAF or ECAD from Eircode you will receive a complete edition of your chosen file at the point of purchase, followed by three quarterly update files. The files will be distributed electronically via our secure customer portal.

TheBustedFlush

SpaceTime wrote: »

2.2m pieces of data linked to GPS coordinates isn't that much raw data really.

My concern is the price and how well any API will be built for connecting to the database.

If it's too expensive or too cumbersome, it won't get integrated into maps.

I can also see companies charging extra for Irish postcode look up on your device

So capacity isn't an issue in your view.

Price is I would agree. How do you determine what is good value though? Does it not depend on the size/type of your business and what value having access to the data brings - pretty much like any data product? If you're a small business and just need a single copy of the database for your own use, how much should it be? If you're a big business that plans to have multiple people using it as part of your day-to-day business and it's going to save you money in time or other costs, then you'd be willing to pay more. If you're going to use it to sell more products or services i.e. make money from using it, then presumably you're willing to pay for that kind of access too.

How would companies charge extra for look-up on a device if it's going to be available free on the web? Or do you mean for companies doing this?

Sam Russell

So let me see if I understand this.

Capita have a contract for €25m to supply a design and supply a database (and keep it updated) of postcodes for all addresses in Ireland. This database will be owned by the Irish state.

Irish companies will be charged to access this database. (by whom?)

Satnav companies will have to pay a royalty for access to the database design and update fees. (again by whom?)

The postcode will be of no use to anyone who does not pay for access to the database, and will require access to the internet.

The basic design is such that constant updates are required, and it is useless without computer/network access.

Who makes the money? [I know the state pays out for its creation].

tvc15

>The basic design is such that constant updates are required, and it is useless without computer/network access.

Can we stop repeating this as a unique problem to this postcode? If a house is newly built it won't be in an old database! It shouldn't be that much of a shock that you have to update your satnav if you want new houses or new road layouts that have changed since the last time you updated!

And capita make the money, they won the tender for better or worse, they are a private company not doing it for the craic, the government could have done it themselves but decided against it

my3cents

tvc15 wrote: »

>The basic design is such that constant updates are required, and it is useless without computer/network access.

Can we stop repeating this as a unique problem to this postcode? If a house is newly built it won't be in an old database! It shouldn't be that much of a shock that you have to update your satnav if you want new houses or new road layouts that have changed since the last time you updated!

And capita make the money, they won the tender for better or worse, they are a private company not doing it for the craic, the government could have done it themselves but decided against it

Thank god imagine the mess!

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

So let me see if I understand this.

Capita have a contract for €25m to supply a design and supply a database (and keep it updated) of postcodes for all addresses in Ireland. This database will be owned by the Irish state.

Irish companies will be charged to access this database. (by whom?)

Satnav companies will have to pay a royalty for access to the database design and update fees. (again by whom?)

The postcode will be of no use to anyone who does not pay for access to the database, and will require access to the internet.

The basic design is such that constant updates are required, and it is useless without computer/network access.

Who makes the money? [I know the state pays out for its creation].

and why such an issue with paying? Its national infrastructure and a government service, we pay for all those, roads have tolls/motor tax etc....

From what i can deduce, the revenue generated is for the State, and yes presumably some will be used to fund the on going maintenance of the code....so what?

Capita will be paid 24 million over 10 years, the licensing fee will surely be used to cover that cost and pay capita, again, so what?

Sam Russell

Is there a regulator for thses charges?

As for upgrades, if the house next to me adds a granny flat and that becomes 89a, under most postcodes it keeps the code of its neighbour but this system requires a new postcode that is completely different to either side. This is making revenue work.

It would appear to be a new cashcow for someone.

As for your idea that this is related to tolls, you may be correct. The PPP partners get paid whether the toll road is used or not. There is a minimum paid by the state in not enough users pay the toll. [This applies to the tunnel in Limerick and some motorway sections. The contracts have been written to favour the private entity at the expense of the state.

Under the evoting contract, the supplier owned the software and the state owned the out-dated hardware. Who go the better deal?

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is there a regulator for thses charges?

As for upgrades, if the house next to me adds a granny flat and that becomes 89a, under most postcodes it keeps the code of its neighbour but this system requires a new postcode that is completely different to either side. This is making revenue work.

and there will probably be thousands of these scenarios and similar ones every year, the new addresses will be assigned a postcode and pushed out to users in the quarterly updates you get - its not like your paying per postcode to be created.

you pay a flat fee and you get a well maintained address database and timely updates of new codes every fews months.

Im not going to go off topic to discuss evoting

MBSnr

Sam Russell wrote: »

As for upgrades, if the house next to me adds a granny flat and that becomes 89a, under most postcodes it keeps the code of its neighbour but this system requires a new postcode that is completely different to either side. This is making revenue work.

Surely you are getting caught up on things here? Aren't they are paid to administer the db already by the contract in place? If so, how is this making additional revenue for them? Also I can't imagine there's more than a few hundred additional entries per week, if that. They'd probably roll them up into a new db release on a periodic timetable. I mean it's not like the average joe is going to notice and besides as already pointed out it's primarily a nice little way of the state knowing exactly what is where...

Sam Russell

My objection to the proposed system is based on the fact that:

1. It is badly designed. It is not numeric and tries to go down to individual addresses. This has privacy issues and adjacent properties have completely different codes.

2. It is not easy to memorise because it is too long and is alphanumeric, as well as being random.

3. It appears to be designed to generate revenue for the contractor.

4. It fails nearly every criteria laid down in the Oreachtas report for the reqirements for an Irish postcode.

I have no problem with the idea of a postcode, but I think the first priority should have been fixing the non-unique address issue first.

There are no more privacy issues with the proposed post code than already exist via geodirectory/the number on your door / open access to planning information, that is to say, none.

All of the above give information on the building only and not the people inside it so please stop trying to push some privacy issues where none exist

If you have some evidence to provide that shows otherwise please share it

antoinolachtnai

There is a privacy issue in that in order to locate services near your home on a website (say you are looking for a local LIDL, or the nearest B+Q, or a quote for a delivery) you have to give a code which reveals your full address. Effectively this means that you cannot access these services anonymously.

You could use the only the first three digits, but it would give you very vague responses because the districts are very large.

This is a serious privacy disadvantage compared to the UK system where your code will only reveal what street you are on, or the US 5+4 where you have the option of doing one or the other.

These countries also benefit from much more structured addresses. eircode adds a largely unstructured code to an unstructured address. It is hard to see how this makes sense.

Curly Judge

Deleted User wrote: »

There are no more privacy issues with the proposed post code than already exist via geodirectory/the number on your door / open access to planning information, that is to say, none.

All of the above give information on the building only and not the people inside it so please stop trying to push some privacy issues where none exist

If you have some evidence to provide that shows otherwise please share it

Correct!
I cannot understand this nonsense about invasion of privacy.
The only people who need worry about their privacy being invaded are a few Southeast Asians renting remote bungalows to grow cannabis.

My name, phone number and address appear in our local telephone directory!
Should I sue them for invasion of my privacy?

Red Nissan

Curly Judge wrote: »

Should I sue them for invasion of my privacy?

It's come up already in this thread, it's pointed out that a sizeable enough proportion of the population do not want to be in the directory.

L1011

Curly Judge wrote: »

The only people who need worry about their privacy being invaded are a few Southeast Asians renting remote bungalows to grow cannabis.

Not that a postcode will change anything in that situation either.

larchill

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is a privacy issue in that in order to locate services near your home on a website (say you are looking for a local LIDL, or the nearest B+Q, or a quote for a delivery) you have to give a code which reveals your full address. Effectively this means that you cannot access these services anonymously.

You could use the only the first three digits, but it would give you very vague responses because the districts are very large.

This is a serious privacy disadvantage compared to the UK system where your code will only reveal what street you are on, or the US 5+4 where you have the option of doing one or the other.

These countries also benefit from much more structured addresses. eircode adds a largely unstructured code to an unstructured address. It is hard to see how this makes sense.

We don't know yet how small or large the district (1st part of eircode) will be. Also in the US the 1st part of the Zip Code is in effect a district like Dublin 1, 2, etc - so it's not that local. Indeed this is the case with most European post codes also - they just go down to the local area or district after which you will use the street/road name & premises number. In the absence of a street/road name & premises number, the eircode will be fulfilling that role.

Tow

larchill wrote: »

We don't know yet how small or large the district (1st part of eircode) will be.

Yes we do, the are An Post's "Principal Post Towns", D6 is the largest with 80K addresses.

This is just going around in circles. The contact has been awarded and the civil service and government messed it up. Nothing new there, we will just have to live with what we are getting.

SpaceTime

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is a privacy issue in that in order to locate services near your home on a website (say you are looking for a local LIDL, or the nearest B+Q, or a quote for a delivery) you have to give a code which reveals your full address. Effectively this means that you cannot access these services anonymously.

You could use the only the first three digits, but it would give you very vague responses because the districts are very large.

This is a serious privacy disadvantage compared to the UK system where your code will only reveal what street you are on, or the US 5+4 where you have the option of doing one or the other.

These countries also benefit from much more structured addresses. eircode adds a largely unstructured code to an unstructured address. It is hard to see how this makes sense.

It all depends on how small the area the first 3 digits - routing code provides.

If you've A11 style codes that gives you 2600 postal regions / routing codes which is a fair few for a country Ireland's size.
It'll still get you down to areas the size of Dublin postal district in any urban area.

I assume Cork will probably be something like C01, C02, C03, C04 and so on..

If it's 2 alpha and 1 numeric then you've 6760 possibilities.
The lack of structure in the second half isn't really all that helpful though.

The majority of small EU countries just use 4-digit postal codes and waste most of them anyway. They've rarely more than a couple of thousand anyway.

There's going to have to be some kind of logic to the routing codes though if it's going to make any sense.
There's not going to be much point in having Dublin as D01 to D26 and Cork as X38 or something.

I would assume you'll end up with major areas having memorable codes and less major areas having really weird ones?

The most likely one would be:

You've 26 counties, take 26 routing letters.
Reserve all the unique ones for counties that start with them with larger populations taking priority.

Carlow - A
Cavan - B
Clare - E
Cork - C
Donegal - F
Dublin - D
Galway - G
Kerry H
Kildare - K
Kilkenny - N
Laois - P
Leitrim - Q
Limerick - L
Longford - U
Louth - V
Mayo - W
Meath - M
Monaghan
Offaly - O
Roscommon - R
Sligo - S
Tipperary - T
Waterford - X
Westmeath - Y
Wexford - W
Wicklow - Z

Now just imagine how chaotic that would get politically as Kerry ends up being H or Wicklow Z.

If they're totally random, it's going to be completely nuts as nobody will know where anything is or even what logic they need to look them up in.

Tow

There is no need to speculate, just ask for a copy of their info pack:

Routing Key: aligned to mail sortation
• The Routing Key will be based on the principal post towns as
determined by the USP
• There are 139 principal post towns
• Dublin numbered postal districts will be designated “D”, i.e. D01 –
D24
• Outside Dublin, avoid geographic associations & be language
neutral
• Routing Keys will be based on manual mail sortation, i.e. follows a
certain sequence.

And as posted before the character set is 0 to 9 and A,C,D,E,F,H,K,N,P,R,T,V,W,X,Y

SpaceTime

So, immediately they've just re-enforced the Dublin vs Down the Country nonsense.

One addressing system for the capital and another for the peasants.
That's going to go down like a lead balloon in Cork and you'll find people just won't use the codes. I'm not kidding.

Also what happens to County Dublin addresses without any codes already?

Just watch now as this degenerates into county lines, chips on shoulders about locations and house price banding issues.
D6W's controversy years ago will be nothing in comparison!!

Also, how the hell do you look up a code that isn't related to anything geographical ?!

This whole thing is looking about as useful as the British telephone area codes where 01878 could be Northern Scotland and 01898 could be the SW of England.

Tow

SpaceTime wrote: »

D6W's controversy years ago will be nothing in comparison!!

D6W is an exception to the Routing Key validation, 'W' is the only letter allowed in position 3, if 1 and 2 are 'D6'.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Also, how the hell do you look up a code that isn't related to anything geographical ?!

You subscribe to the database, of course!

SpaceTime

Tow wrote: »

D6W is an exception to the Routing Key validation, 'W' is the only letter allowed in position 3, if 1 and 2 are 'D6'.



You subscribe to the database, of course!

Just change D6W to D29 or D66 to annoy them

TheBustedFlush

SpaceTime wrote: »

It all depends on how small the area the first 3 digits - routing code provides.

If you've A11 style codes that gives you 2600 postal regions / routing codes which is a fair few for a country Ireland's size.
It'll still get you down to areas the size of Dublin postal district in any urban area.

I assume Cork will probably be something like C01, C02, C03, C04 and so on..

If it's 2 alpha and 1 numeric then you've 6760 possibilities.
The lack of structure in the second half isn't really all that helpful though.

The majority of small EU countries just use 4-digit postal codes and waste most of them anyway. They've rarely more than a couple of thousand anyway.

There's going to have to be some kind of logic to the routing codes though if it's going to make any sense.
There's not going to be much point in having Dublin as D01 to D26 and Cork as X38 or something.

I would assume you'll end up with major areas having memorable codes and less major areas having really weird ones?

The most likely one would be:

You've 26 counties, take 26 routing letters.
Reserve all the unique ones for counties that start with them with larger populations taking priority.

Now just imagine how chaotic that would get politically as Kerry ends up being H or Wicklow Z.

If they're totally random, it's going to be completely nuts as nobody will know where anything is or even what logic they need to look them up in.

The format for the first three characters was set out some months ago on eircode site:
"The first character will always be a letter, followed by two numbers, except for D6W. The letters will not be linked to a county or city name in English or Irish. Addresses already in existing postal districts in Dublin will use the Routing Key format e.g., D03, D12, D15, D22."

ozmo

SpaceTime wrote: »

So, immediately they've just re-enforced the Dublin vs Down the Country nonsense.


Also what happens to County Dublin addresses without any codes already?

Dalkey etc. will get "down the country" postcodes. Thats going go down well...

fricatus

SpaceTime wrote: »

So, immediately they've just re-enforced the Dublin vs Down the Country nonsense.

One addressing system for the capital and another for the peasants.
That's going to go down like a lead balloon in Cork and you'll find people just won't use the codes. I'm not kidding.

Why not start with A at the top for Donegal, working all the way down to Z for Cork or Kerry? They do something similar in Canada I believe.

Tow wrote: »

D6W is an exception to the Routing Key validation, 'W' is the only letter allowed in position 3, if 1 and 2 are 'D6'.

It was ridiculous that they allowed this unique departure from the standard whenever they allowed it (in the '80s?), but to allow it to be perpetuated in a new system of national postcodes?

Why make a single exception? If people in the likes of Cork, Termonfeckin, Dalkey or wherever don't like their postcode, now they'll be able to refer to D6W and point out a reason why their particular pet inconsistency can be accommodated. "No exceptions" would have been a much more sensible approach!