National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Adding the eircode would be of no use, because the eircode does not contain the location co-ordinates or any useful info (beyond the basic D4 or whatever postal district itis) The actual (constantly changing) database which the eircode "looks up" will not fit on a sat nav.

Adding the eircode is exactly all they need to do and keep it updated from the quarterly files eircode are providing.

The code is assigned to the address already contained on the sat nav.

User enters eircode, sat nav now knows the address, sat nav takes them to address associated with the code.

Easy. It doesn't need any coordinates or to look up anything.

recedite

That is a lot more complicated, but maybe it could work. It would require the satnav companies to re-write their own databases, so that every single address had both a street house number and a postcode, linked to each other. Most, but not all, city addresses would currently have a street house number already in their database, so if you enter that house number into the sat nav now with the rest of the address, the actual location (or near enough) comes up. Rural addresses do not have that already, so a significant expansion of the database would be needed there.

How much would this cost the sat-nav companies, and how long would it take?
Its a ridiculous amount of work really, just to achieve what Garmin can already achieve by inserting a simple algorithm into their satnav which translates any loc8 code into geo co-ordinates.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

That is a lot more complicated, but maybe it could work. It would require the satnav companies to re-write their own databases, so that every single address had both a street house number and a postcode, linked to each other. Most, but not all, city addresses would currently have a street house number already in their database, so if you enter that house number into the sat nav now with the rest of the address, the actual location (or near enough) comes up. Rural addresses do not have that already, so a significant expansion of the database would be needed there.

How much would this cost the sat-nav companies, and how long would it take?
Its a ridiculous amount of work really, just to achieve what Garmin can already achieve by inserting a simple algorithm into their satnav which translates any loc8 code into geo co-ordinates.

Well look, the geo coordinates are in the eircode database too, so they don't even need to do address matching

Just load the codes with the geo coordinates and when customer types in code X it will be = geo location xyz and off you go

We are talking about 2.2 million lines of text here, the size of that is tiny and they could compress it

It's totally workable at low cost if they actually think about it and be smart.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

Well look, the geo coordinates are in the eircode database too, so they don't even need to do address matching

Just load the codes with the geo coordinates and when customer types in code X it will be = geo location xyz and off you go

We are talking about 2.2 million lines of text here, the size of that is tiny and they could compress it

It's totally workable at low cost if they actually think about it and be smart.

TomTom will have no problem in adding the relevant contents of the Eircode database - address, code and coordinates. They get regular updates from other postcode address files - the one for Ireland will be no different. All address databases get updated on a regular basis. Here, the Nokia company that supplies mapping and data to Garmin, Amazon and others can also adopt it easily. Capacity is not an issue.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

I beleive the charges are based on 'pings' per data access. That is an open licence to print money for some one - and I doubt it will be the

I don't believe this to be true, have a look at eircode's website, you buy the database in one of two available formats (either with geo coordinates or without) and you pay the fee

There's no cost per look up from what I can tell, you're given the database to use as you want as many times as you want

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

I don't believe this to be true, have a look at eircode's website, you buy the database in one of two available formats (either with geo coordinates or without) and you pay the fee

There's no cost per look up from what I can tell, you're given the database to use as you want as many times as you want

This may not be true. Services sold like this with access to an information database are often sold in different ways - by single copy, by seat, or by transaction/click - you pick whatever whatever best suits your business.

You can be a small business and just get a single copy for your internal use - cost probably less than 1k. If you want to get 2 or 3 copies then these are likely discounted, the more copies you buy.

If you want to use the info externally for other people to use or provide commercial services using codes, then you'll pay more since you're making money as well. Google have a model similar to this in use on some of their products.

However, it isn't likely to be a licence to print money, since there are generally caps on the levels of licence. It's a limited market within Ireland - no point in strangling it at the outset.

Big businesses will likely look to get long-term deals on licensing with regular updates - it will fit their business models - banks, insurance companies, mapping companies, state bodies, etc. The returns on any investment required will emerge in the medium-term (3-5 years) rather than any immediate quick buck, hence the need for a long contract licence period for the licence holder. It took 20 years or more for postcode systems to embed themselves in other jurisdictions - Ireland's may take shorter, but it won't be within a year or two.

The proposed strategy for roll-out is probably the smart play. Get all the state services on board using it from day one, and without making it compulsory on people (with the inevitable political in-fighting that might result), gradually roll it out so that it just becomes a day-to-day necessary piece of infrastructure like PPS numbers, bank accounts, PINs, insurance quotes, driving licence applications, social protection benefits, agricultural subsidies, school applications, loyalty club card applications, e-tailing purchases, etc.

Frankly, no one gives a %&*$$£ about whether a few trucking companies feel hard done by about loading their vans, or whatever. The FTA probably wants to look good in front of its members for "fighting the good fight' but it won't get anything changed, except perhaps a better negotiation on cost possibly.

As for alternate location code services - they had their chance and failed. Perhaps they can adapt their offerings to see if they can come up with something else - it's a free market, let them at it.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

.... except this piece of crap went out to private tender. And to make it worse, certain people who were in on the design of the tender (on behalf of us taxpayers) were also in the private consortium that won the tender. Coincidence or what.

This sounds like bull****. What evidence do you have to support it?

Red Nissan

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

This sounds like bull****. What evidence do you have to support it?

It's been widely reported to be perfectly honest.

ukoda

Red Nissan wrote: »

It's been widely reported to be perfectly honest.

I'd say it's more like WILDY reported on this thread.

Anyone have a link or source to something credible?

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

This sounds like bull****

It smells bad too...
http://www.globaladdress.org/2014/02/01/new-postcode-system-to-roll-out-across-ireland-in-2015/

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

It smells bad too...
http://www.globaladdress.org/2014/02/01/new-postcode-system-to-roll-out-across-ireland-in-2015/

So you've linked us to an article with nothing but positive things to say about the project?

An article that says a worldwide postcode expert was involved in the project?

How dare they use an expert.

my3cents

recedite wrote: »

It smells bad too...
http://www.globaladdress.org/2014/02/01/new-postcode-system-to-roll-out-across-ireland-in-2015/

Can't see anything there that tells me anything much, good, bad, smelly or otherwise.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

So you've linked us to an article with nothing but positive things to say about the project?

An article that says a worldwide postcode expert was involved in the project?

How dare they use an expert.

Have to agree with you on that.

L1011

ukoda wrote: »

Thats not true. The memory of a standard sat nav is around 8gb for Ireland and UK,

Full Garmin European maps fit on a 2GB SD card, and using half a gig on a smartphone is quite a lot if you buy Apple's extremely anaemic devices (not that it'll be that big, but it won't be small either).

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

An article that says a worldwide postcode expert was involved in the project?

How dare they use an expert.

There's nothing wrong with an expert designing a suitable postcode and subjecting it to a full cost benefit analysis. And then competing for a govt. tender, on an equal footing with others doing the same thing.

But wait... isn't one of these named "project managers" also sitting on the Postcode Board which is supposed to be independently judging the projects??

The Minister has asked Chairperson of ComReg, Isolde Goggin, to appoint Project Managers with the necessary technical expertise to design a suitable postcode and to subject it to a full cost benefit analysis.

The Project Managers will present their proposals to the Postcode Board, describing in sufficient detail a model that is the most efficient, effective and most publicly usable postcode system. The Board will forward these reports, with their own recommendations, to the Minister by the end of 2005.

Check out the list of names;
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2005/National+Postcode+Project+Boards+Convenes.htm

ukoda

MYOB wrote: »

Full Garmin European maps fit on a 2GB SD card, and using half a gig on a smartphone is quite a lot if you buy Apple's extremely anaemic devices (not that it'll be that big, but it won't be small either).

Well most sat navs I see start at 8gb for just UK and Ireland.

If they really can fit all maps and addresses/postcodes for Europe on 2gb. They'll be able to fit Ireland's too.
Plus memory is dirt cheap these days so expanding it wouldn't be cost prohibitive

On a smartphone you'd be using google maps, that's all via an Internet connection. No need to store the database, google will store it

L1011

ukoda wrote: »

On a smartphone you'd be using google maps, that's all via an Internet connection. No need to store the database, google will store it

Firstly, only if you use Google Maps. Not default on Apple, Nokia or possibly soon Samsung smartphones

Secondly, the times you actually critically need navigation are often the ones where you've no net access which is a massive and serious failing of Google Maps and why there's a market for third party navigation apps on Android phones. Nearly every other navigation app can download maps in their entirety.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with an expert designing a suitable postcode and subjecting it to a full cost benefit analysis. And then competing for a govt. tender, on an equal footing with others doing the same thing.

But wait... isn't one of these named "project managers" also sitting on the Postcode Board which is supposed to be independently judging the projects??
Check out the list of names;
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2005/National+Postcode+Project+Boards+Convenes.htm

He's one of many on the board. It's not like he had final say on anything nor was he the actual project manager for capitas submission. From what I can tell they just consulted him as an industry expert
Which seems prudent

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

He's one of many on the board. It's not like he had final say on anything nor was he the actual project manager for capitas submission. From what I can tell they just consulted him as an industry expert
Which seems prudent

That's actually not the point.

That linked release was from nine years ago and says that project managers will be appointed who will present code design proposals. They are not even named. And the individual expert is not named as a project manager.

The board was finished that same year in 2005 after they prepared their report for the minister.

So what has this got to do with designing a tender which presumably didn't happen until a number of years later?

ukoda

MYOB wrote: »

Firstly, only if you use Google Maps. Not default on Apple, Nokia or possibly soon Samsung smartphones

Secondly, the times you actually critically need navigation are often the ones where you've no net access which is a massive and serious failing of Google Maps and why there's a market for third party navigation apps on Android phones. Nearly every other navigation app can download maps in their entirety.

Nothing to stop anyone building a downloadable app using eircode as the database. A fully offline sat nav app is something like 27mb. They are obviously using compression here for the databases and maps. So they can do the same with eircode's. These "it's too big" claims are not valid in my opinion

But let's be real here. The market is heavily dominated by google and they will have no hesitation implementing eircode.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

Nothing to stop anyone building a downloadable app using eircode as the database. A fully offline sat nav app is something like 27mb. They are obviously using compression here for the databases and maps. So they can do the same with eircode's. These "it's too big" claims are not valid in my opinion

But let's be real here. The market is heavily dominated by google and they will have no hesitation implementing eircode.

I was going to ask how much extra information is actually being added in this scenario of one code for every address compared to other postcode systems around the world?

The satnav would carry every address regardless. Added to that will be a 7 character code for each one - 2.2m x 7 characters. Plus each one will have separate coordinates to replace presumably existing inaccurate ones.

So what's the net increase in actual stored info?

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

That's actually not the point.

That linked release was from nine years ago and says that project managers will be appointed who will present code design proposals. They are not even named. And the individual expert is not named as a project manager.

The board was finished that same year in 2005 after they prepared their report for the minister.

So what has this got to do with designing a tender which presumably didn't happen until a number of years later?

Ah I see thanks for clarifying that.

Talk about clutching at straws!!!

SpaceTime

It'll get implemented by Satnavs no doubt, it's just a matter of needing constant upgrades anytime there's a spate of new houses.

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

So what's the net increase in actual stored info?

I would Imagine very little, if they can fit every country in Europe's postcode/address and a map of every country into 27mb. We are talking tiny tiny numbers.

TheBustedFlush

SpaceTime wrote: »

It'll get implemented by Satnavs no doubt, it's just a matter of needing constant upgrades anytime there's a spate of new houses.

Agreed - presume that's the same in other countries where information updates are provided on postcode changes, building developments, etc?

With the Eircode, that will mean a new code every time a new address is built/created. However, other addresses/codes won't be changed as a result.

In other countries, both the code for the new addresses, and potentially other ones around them are also changed - a much more elaborate exercise, and presumably more costly between updating, and informing relevant addresses of their new postcodes.

L1011

ukoda wrote: »

Nothing to stop anyone building a downloadable app using eircode as the database. A fully offline sat nav app is something like 27mb. They are obviously using compression here for the databases and maps. So they can do the same with eircode's. These "it's too big" claims are not valid in my opinion

27MB is the app with zero maps.

ukoda

MYOB wrote: »

27MB is the app with zero maps.

My point is still valid, Ireland's eircode will be tiny in comparison to the rest of Europe's info

TheBustedFlush

On reflection, it's probably just as well that we didn't have a postcode system during the crazy boom years - the updaters would have been driven mad - never mind the public.

Can you imagine if a code that identified groups of houses had been used?

"Hi - here's your new postcode - it's the same one for you and most of your neighbours.
- err, ok, thanks."

Two months later -
"eh sorry, here's your new new postcode.
- But I have it.
- Yeah, but yer man down the road sold his back garden and there's a block of flats there now, so we've had to create a new postcode for them, and a new one for you as well. Sorry about that."

Three months later -
"eh, real sorry about this, here's your eh new, new "new" postcode.
- But I've had two already?!!
- Yeah, I know but you know that phone box down the end of the road that was knocked down.....?
- Don't tell me - they built a three story townhouse and a couple of apartments there.
- Yeah, and that's more than 20 houses now in your postcode area, so we've had to split your postcode and give them another one. Sorry about that......

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

That linked release was from nine years ago and says that project managers will be appointed who will present code design proposals. They are not even named. And the individual expert is not named as a project manager.

The board was finished that same year in 2005 after they prepared their report for the minister.

Yes, a long time, and many govt. ministers have come and gone over that period.
But one name is always there, from his early days on the steering committees to his final emergence as part of the winning consortium.

It is in that context that we read of Capita's exhuberant praise for this vital cog in their "competitive" bid;

In a conclusion to perhaps the longest running drama in the address field, Ireland will finally acquire a postcode system. Here at GADA we can also proudly announce that our member GoCode, headed by Alex Pigot, played a critical role in the project. Capita has acknowledged that Alex’s “vast knowledge of postal, addressing and postcode systems worldwide and how such systems are implemented was highly valuable to us in preparing what was acknowledged by the Irish government as an outstanding proposal document.”

After all, when it comes to getting contracts which are subject to the approval of politicians, its not what you know, but who you know.
Nothing beats a well placed lobbyist.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

Yes, a long time, and many govt. ministers have come and gone over that period.
But one name is always there, from his early days on the steering committees to his final emergence as part of the winning consortium.

It is in that context that we read of Capita's exhuberant praise for this vital cog in their "competitive" bid;After all, when it comes to getting contracts which are subject to the approval of politicians, its not what you know, but who you know.
Nothing beats a well placed lobbyist.

Your original statement is untrue, recedite. You have provided no evidence to support it. In fact, anything that you have cited only serves to prove the opposite.