National Postcodes to be introduced

EunanMac

Impetus wrote: »

Perhaps you might explain what is useful about assigning a random number to your house or apartment, and a completely different random number to your neighbour?

It means rather than anyone being able to figure out the postcode for anywhere by just looking up a postcode map, you and your connected cronie company can make a fortune off the back of the Irish taxpayer and the transport industry, the cost of which will be passed onto the good old Irish consumer again. It'll be a done deal before the Irish public cop on. They are only starting to cop on to Irish Water now, and it was a done deal 5 years ago or more. (I've nothing against fair and proper water charging btw)

Impetus

Deleted User wrote: »

All roads lead to Rome Dublin, and that's how the planners have prioritised the motorway network. Way OT but the government would be better off pushing harder at getting work out into the rest of the country. I DO believe that they ARE trying, but it isn't working as well as it should.

Having a severe rush hour traffic problem in a country as sparsely populated as Ireland, is more of a spacial issue rather than a transportation one.

I beg to disagree. On the E20 (N7) there is adequate land for 8 to 10 lanes. And while I accept that there are difficulties distributing the traffic from a 10 lane motorway arriving in the Dublin direction, the traffic does land on the M50 with 6 lanes in each direction. Not a big dispersion problem. The big issue is outside of Dublin. Where large sums have been spent (wasted) building motorways that carry very few vehicles. Resulting in a drive from one city to another being a big pain in the neck unless one of the cities in the pair is Dublin.

And while one might glibly refer to Rome, if you have a look at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/45.0483/9.1269 you will notice that the autostrada network is very well spread over this largely mountainous country.

Impetus

Impetus wrote: »

I beg to disagree. On the E20 (N7) there is adequate land for 8 to 10 lanes. And while I accept that there are difficulties distributing the traffic from a 10 lane motorway arriving in the Dublin direction, the traffic does land on the M50 with 6 lanes in each direction. Not a big dispersion problem. The big issue is outside of Dublin. Where large sums have been spent (wasted) building motorways that carry very few vehicles. Resulting in a drive from one city to another being a big pain in the neck unless one of the cities in the pair is Dublin.

I think that you have missed the point of my comment, the point I was making is that Dublin is treated as the centre of the (Irish) universe and that all roads leading there are strained. The solution is not more roads but more work in the regions.

my3cents

I think a lot of the arguments here are moot because those that do the actual deliveries will probably take no notice of the postcode whatever form is used.

The postman knows where everyone on his run lives and the courier drivers know who gets stuff on a regular bases so its only in a minority of cases that a postcode will be of any use at all.

The courier driver who has to come out to me is still going to phone me before coming out postcode or no postcode and my telephone number is more use than any postcode system.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

what does the public expect in this day and age? they are expecting a postcode, they'll be given a postcode. they'll use it anytime they hear and anywhere they see "postcode"
this idea of it not being used isn't valid in my opinion

Ok, give them a crappy solution and tell them its mandatory to use it for any and all state business. The plebs will have no choice but to suck it up. Like an old fashioned state monopoly, except this piece of crap went out to private tender. And to make it worse, certain people who were in on the design of the tender (on behalf of us taxpayers) were also in the private consortium that won the tender. Coincidence or what.

ukoda wrote: »

Those are just a list of attributes of the code. i can't see anything of extra benefit in having the things you've listed.

1. Any code needs to be linked to a database to be any good
2. what reason have you to generalise it locally to your area?
3. Sat navs have POI's for these things, its not an issue, and google maps will find them easily too

This whole thing of "i want to be able to pin point a field in ballysomewhere and eircode can't do that" its a complete nonsense argument. its ridiculous. its such a non issue that its totally irrelevant..

1. Nonsense. A genuine code contains info. That's why it called a code.
2. Data protection etc.. Maybe I don't want every randomer on the internet being able to pinpoint my exact home address.
3. Pre programmed POI's are very limited. If I want to arrange to meet other people at a particular place, the sat nav normally doesn't show the spot I'm thinking of.

Why are you so against the notion that we should adopt some other system that gives all these extra benefits, yet costs less? Why are you so keen on pushing eircode, warts and all?

Impetus

my3cents wrote: »

I think a lot of the arguments here are moot because those that do the actual deliveries will probably take no notice of the postcode whatever form is used.

The postman knows where everyone on his run lives and the courier drivers know who gets stuff on a regular bases so its only in a minority of cases that a postcode will be of any use at all.

The courier driver who has to come out to me is still going to phone me before coming out postcode or no postcode and my telephone number is more use than any postcode system.

Sure the postman who does the job every day knows - but the competing carrier might only visit some house once in the blue moon. You don't want your Amazon package delayed, especially that there are so few opportunities to buy the precise stuff you require online from Irish retailers.

Impetus

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that you have missed the point of my comment, the point I was making is that Dublin is treated as the centre of the (Irish) universe and that all roads leading there are strained. The solution is not more roads but more work in the regions.

Which is why I am suggesting that every building in the country should have a road name, street number, postcode and town name. Only a few cities and towns have this - and none has a proper postcode to enable businesses to manage the entire country and the logistics required using a simple four or five digit number. Complexity of townland names and local knowledge is the enemy of prosperity.

my3cents

Impetus wrote: »

Sure the postman who does the job every day knows - but the competing carrier might only visit some house once in the blue moon. You don't want your Amazon package delayed, especially that there are so few opportunities to buy the precise stuff you require online from Irish retailers.

The competing carrier wants to know that I'll be in so he doesn't waste his time calling if I'm out hence my phone number is more use than a Loc8 code.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Why are you so against the notion that we should adopt some other system that gives all these extra benefits, yet costs less? Why are you so keen on pushing eircode, warts and all?

I'm just sick of the hysteria on here from people who are over dramatising things.

I think the code will be of benefit, and I'm sick of it getting bashed to death on here and wild claims of "no one will use it!"

You want a code that's suits you. Eircode will suit me just fine so in not against it.

The country will start using it and companies / country will see the benefits

There's a whole lot of wild and ludacris statements on this forum from a small number of people with a vested interest.

The rest of the country will get their postcode and start using it.

my3cents

ukoda wrote: »

I'm just sick of the hysteria on here from people who are over dramatising things.

I think the code will be of benefit, and I'm sick of it getting bashed to death on here and wild claims of "no one will use it!"

You want a code that's suits you. Eircode will suit me just fine so in not against it.

The country will start using it and companies / country will see the benefits

There's a whole lot of wild and ludacris statements on this forum from a small number of people with a vested interest.

The rest of the country will get their postcode and start using it.

AND ridiculous PM's sent by users with an axe to grind.

I'll start using my Eircode as soon as I know what it is, I really doubt it will make much difference but at least if my house can be uniquely identified there is no excuse for correctly addressed mail and parcels not to arrive even if the couriers don't have much of a clue what any postcode is.

I do love saying what a dodo Loc8 is because of the rampant unsolicited PM I got from a user with zero posts on boards.ie telling me that ukoda has no right to decide what is right for the country.

my3cents

my3cents wrote: »

AND ridiculous PM's sent by users with an axe to grind.

If you have any issues with a PM, report it.

ukoda

my3cents wrote: »

AND ridiculous PM's sent by users with an axe to grind.

You get them too?! Aha I think it's flattering they go to the trouble of creating a new account to PM people and call me foolish and try to tell me to stop posting what I'm posting

Red Nissan

my3cents wrote: »

AND ridiculous PM's sent by users with an axe to grind.

I'll start using my Eircode as soon as I know what it is, I really doubt it will make much difference but at least if my house can be uniquely identified there is no excuse for correctly addressed mail and parcels not to arrive even if the couriers don't have much of a clue what any postcode is.

I do love saying what a dodo Loc8 is because of the rampant unsolicited PM I got from a user with zero posts on boards.ie telling me that ukoda has no right to decide what is right for the country.

This post suggests to me that the poster does not understand Loc8Code, because Loc8Code does exactly that and MORE, one can assign a Loc8Code to the business office in a large complex, the maintenance department at the other end of the site and so forth, farmers already us it to identify their milking parlous rather than their actual letterbox for milk collection and servicing companies. And so on.

tvc15

Right this thread has jumped the shark in a big way with fanatic anti government posts declaring chaos and corruption! Here's the facts:

A new postcode has already been created for every building in the country. This will not be reversed so now we have a postcode. Done!

The problem this postcode has is that the geographic element (first 3 characters) is like an old style European postcode except the areas covered are quite big and will be of little use for finding addresses

They had the opportunity to use the following 4 characters for use as a geographic element as well but they did not. This will not change.

Instead we have a pseudo random collection of characters which identifies an exact house instead of an area. You may not like it but that will not change. The good part of this is that you will now be able to look up the actual address of any postcode in yhe country using (likely) your gps or google maps.

So what are we left with? The code will be used in every government communication as of next year and (likely) all communications from big utilities. People will also enter postcodes online for deliveries, you would be mad not to as it will be so much easier to find your house when its used

Who doesn't like it? People who hate the government and complain about all big schemes because of corruption and cronieism, fanboys and employees of loc8, the logistics industry who complained about the lack of a postcode causing the high price of delivery

Are they're concerns valid? Probably but ultimately it doesn't matter, like it or not we now have an official postcod. You want emergency services to get to you quickly, now they can for every address in the country, you want a parcel delivered without having to include instructions or getting a phone call from the driver, now you can for every address in the country

The code is not perfect but it is finalised and official, if you don't like it don't use it but it will be required when dealing with the government

Red Nissan

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is a big ask. I might be able to remember my own - might now -

As example, I'm using my Loc8Code for four years already, do I remember it? No. It comes up automatically anywhere I've ordered goods previously, it comes up on my personal smart devices if I've used it previously after the first two letters are inputted.

Anything new though and I have to look up where I've stored it. The beauty with the Loc8Code is the is all one need to send to say a courier for them to find your delivery address [front door, not suitable in apartment blocks].

Red Nissan

tvc15 wrote: »

The good part of this is that you will now be able to look up the actual address of any postcode in yhe country using (likely) your gps or google maps. People will also enter postcodes online for deliveries, you would be mad not to as it will be so much easier to find your house when its used

Seemingly this is in fact the biggest problem, if we are to believe people in the transport business, it does not.

Sam Russell

tvc15 wrote: »

Right this thread has jumped the shark in a big way with fanatic anti government posts declaring chaos and corruption! Here's the facts:

A new postcode has already been created for every building in the country. This will not be reversed so now we have a postcode. Done!

The problem this postcode has is that the geographic element (first 3 characters) is like an old style European postcode except the areas covered are quite big and will be of little use for finding addresses

They had the opportunity to use the following 4 characters for use as a geographic element as well but they did not. This will not change.

Instead we have a pseudo random collection of characters which identifies an exact house instead of an area. You may not like it but that will not change. The good part of this is that you will now be able to look up the actual address of any postcode in yhe country using (likely) your gps or google maps.

So what are we left with? The code will be used in every government communication as of next year and (likely) all communications from big utilities. People will also enter postcodes online for deliveries, you would be mad not to as it will be so much easier to find your house when its used

Who doesn't like it? People who hate the government and complain about all big schemes because of corruption and cronieism, fanboys and employees of loc8, the logistics industry who complained about the lack of a postcode causing the high price of delivery

Are they're concerns valid? Probably but ultimately it doesn't matter, like it or not we now have an official postcod. You want emergency services to get to you quickly, now they can for every address in the country, you want a parcel delivered without having to include instructions or getting a phone call from the driver, now you can for every address in the country

The code is not perfect but it is finalised and official, if you don't like it don't use it but it will be required when dealing with the government

The late Seamus Brennan when minister responsible cancelled the new signage for Dublin because he thaught it was awful and sent it back for redesign. There is a new minister now and he may be open to take a look at this before it is a laughing joke.

ukoda

Red Nissan wrote: »

As example, I'm using my Loc8Code for four years already, do I remember it? No. It comes up automatically anywhere I've ordered goods previously, it comes up on my personal smart devices if I've used it previously after the first two letters are inputted.

Anything new though and I have to look up where I've stored it. The beauty with the Loc8Code is the is all one need to send to say a courier for them to find your delivery address [front door, not suitable in apartment blocks].

you don't remember your loc8 code because its obscure and its up to you to decide to use it.

Eircode will be everywhere:
Every Letter/parcel that arrives in your home
every time you call a company
every time you order online
every interaction you have with the government
When your electricity goes, it will the what the utility asks for when you call
the list goes on
there will be a substantial marketing campaign behind it too

It will be remembered because people will have no choice.

This 'beauty of loc8code' you mention - seems to me eircode will do exactly that too.

Im sure there were people back in the day insisting that no one will be able to remember their landline number, their car reg etc etc:rolleyes:

SpaceTime

The pseudo random thing is probably due to lobbying from paranoid privacy fanatics.

Ireland has gone to the stage that hardly anyone is in the telephone directory too due to this mentality.

There were TDs a few years ago from FG mentioning they're were going to oppose postcodes to avoid junk mail !

recedite

tvc15 wrote: »

Instead we have a pseudo random collection of characters which identifies an exact house instead of an area. You may not like it but that will not change. The good part of this is that you will now be able to look up the actual address of any postcode in the country using (likely) your gps or google maps.

Not with an in-car sat nav, you won't; it won't have the memory to support the database. But an app could probably be developed to allow a GPS enabled smartphone (also equipped with mobile broadband) to look up the address on the database and then navigate to it. The only problem there is that they have recently made it illegal to consult/input/hold the phone while driving.

tvc15 wrote: »

.. you want a parcel delivered without having to include instructions or getting a phone call from the driver, now you can for every address in the country..

I doubt it. That's what this discussion is all about. The proposed eircode is not fit for (that) purpose. Its just PPS numbers for houses. If the purpose is to create a database with a unique identifier for every house in Ireland, in order to see who has paid their property tax, water charges, and/or registered their septic tank, then it will be fine for that purpose.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Not with an in-car sat nav, you won't; it won't have the memory to support the database. But an app could probably be developed to allow a GPS enabled smartphone (also equipped with mobile broadband) to look up the address on the database and then navigate to it. The only problem there is that they have recently made it illegal to consult/input/hold the phone while driving.

Thats not true. The memory of a standard sat nav is around 8gb for Ireland and UK, if they were to add the eircode to their existing database it would be a very small update, prob less than half a gb, plenty of room, If Garmin are willing to release updates to their devices for the obscure Loc8code that a tiny percentage of people use, id say its a safe bet they'll have no problem releasing updates for a national official postcode.

The minister has also clarified that taxi's and others using a dash mount for their phone to navigate are exempt - i.e. Hailo cabs etc, this article explains it in lay man terms http://gometro.ie/2014/04/those-confusing-new-mobile-driving-rules-explained/

I doubt it. That's what this discussion is all about. The proposed eircode is not fit for (that) purpose. Its just PPS numbers for houses. If the purpose is to create a database with a unique identifier for every house in Ireland, in order to see who has paid their property tax, water charges, and/or registered their septic tank, then it will be fine for that purpo

We have a property ID for this so its couldn't have been a consideration in eircodes design

The code is fit for purpose. Every package that arrives in a delivery office can be scanned and their software can ping the eircode database for the geo coordinates and instantly optimise a delivery schedule and route. if they can't figure this out. they shouldn't be running a delivery company.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

The code is fit for purpose. Every package that arrives in a delivery office can be scanned and their software can ping the eircode database for the geo coordinates and instantly optimise a delivery schedule and route. if they can't figure this out. they shouldn't be running a delivery company.

There is a data usage charge that in not trivial, and in the order of €5k plus for the likes of a delivery company. I think that might make it irrelevant for most such companies.

I beleive the charges are based on 'pings' per data access. That is an open licence to print money for some one - and I doubt it will be the state.

But that is only one of my objections to this idiotic scheme. The only aspect that is OK is the fixed length code.

The code is an entry on a database to index it. If the code was divide into two parts, one that located down to about 100 addresses, the other (private) bit that went to each address, I would have no problem, It is the fact that the first part (D04) is for about 10,000 addresses that has me opposed to it.

If it is a disaster, it will not take much to redesign it.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a data usage charge that in not trivial, and in the order of €5k plus for the likes of a delivery company. I think that might make it irrelevant for most such companies.

I beleive the charges are based on 'pings' per data access. That is an open licence to print money for some one - and I doubt it will be the state.

But that is only one of my objections to this idiotic scheme. The only aspect that is OK is the fixed length code.

The code is an entry on a database to index it. If the code was divide into two parts, one that located down to about 100 addresses, the other (private) bit that went to each address, I would have no problem, It is the fact that the first part (D04) is for about 10,000 addresses that has me opposed to it.

If it is a disaster, it will not take much to redesign it.

Again. If they can't work the numbers and realise that expenditure of 5k = optimisation and efficiency cost of Xk (highly likely to be more than 5k) then they shouldn't be running a delivery company.

And again to point out. No one knows the actual fees yet.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Again. If they can't work the numbers and realise that expenditure of 5k = optimisation and efficiency cost of Xk (highly likely to be more than 5k) then they shouldn't be running a delivery company.

And again to point out. No one knows the actual fees yet.

Remember, these are the same companies that refuse to pay tolls on the motorways and divert to avoid them. If it too much dosh, they will not use them.

I agree, the code charges are likely to be a lot more than €5k, particularly for large operations. It is a scam in my book.

antoinolachtnai

Then you will need to affix a routing code on the package to provide the route information to the sorter and the driver to ensure it is brought to the correct delivery van and to ensure it is dropped off at the correct point on this optimised route.

What you are describing is a very complex way of going about the very simple business of sorting boxes.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Then you will need to affix a routing code on the package to provide the route information to the sorter and the driver to ensure it is brought to the correct delivery van and to ensure it is dropped off at the correct point on this optimised route.

What you are describing is a very complex way of going about the very simple business of sorting boxes.

They can make it as simple or as complicated as they want. That choice is theirs.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Remember, these are the same companies that refuse to pay tolls on the motorways and divert to avoid them. If it too much dosh, they will not use them.

I agree, the code charges are likely to be a lot more than €5k, particularly for large operations. It is a scam in my book.

I actually meant the savings are likely to be more than the 5k database cost. So they'd stand to save money using it

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

I actually meant the savings are likely to be more than the 5k database cost. So they'd stand to save money using it

I doubt that they will see it that way.

They are likely to ignore it, I would think.

Impetus

SpaceTime wrote: »

The pseudo random thing is probably due to lobbying from paranoid privacy fanatics.

Ireland has gone to the stage that hardly anyone is in the telephone directory too due to this mentality.

There were TDs a few years ago from FG mentioning they're were going to oppose postcodes to avoid junk mail !

Pseudo random does nothing in reality to protect privacy. Those who pay for the database (who are potentially the largest / maybe even only) risk to privacy will not be impacted by randomization. It is only your typical small businessman or equivalent who provides a delivery service or fixes your washing machine will have his life made difficult / no better due to the focus on random junk postcodes - rather than a simple road name and house number being a universal part of the national infrastructure. If you put a complex coding structure into Google maps etc, you create a new platform for the NSA & co to log and track whoever visits your home or you might meet in a restaurant.

Switzerland publishes car registrations. The license plate is in the name of the driver (aside from car rentals), which one can look up for any Canton. If you change your car, you have to put your license plate on the new car etc. The big issue is a matter of trust. Switzerland has direct democracy, and every law can be overturned by popular vote, which is typically done after church on Sunday - and the results of the referendum are usually published before dinner time. In other words the people know they are in control - not some proxy of officialdom or politics or permanent government. (This requires the population to be educated, so we don't end up in a California situation where the state is bankrupt because of the non-stop demands for government expenditure via referenda).

I'd put the phonebook shrinkage largely down to the growth of mobile phone dependence. And the internet. Mobile phone calls cost a fortune compared with landline calls, the sound quality is poorer, and mobile conveys unknown health risks. The more traffic that goes over mobile, the more cellsite mast pollution. And few if any mobile terminals have phonebook entries.

And Eircom's closure of its retail premises for several years. And the poor regulation of mobile phone networks which allowed them to subsidize the price of a phone, which is de-facto usury. One would contrast the Irish position with Switzerland where directories.ch has up to the minute information for everybody (with many mobile phone numbers and google map links to their home location, and there is a Swisscom shop in virtually every shopping mall, town centre where you can get a landline, business phone system, home or business internet, buy cloud capacity, a new mobile phone, television, whatever you need in the coms area. And it is controlled and mainly owned by the Swiss federal government - not some hedge fund, a la Eircom who charge more than any other network on the planet for a phone line. And the Swiss gov. takes action to stop spying on people - eg they are currently engaged in legal action in Geneva against US spys, following up on data from Snowden revelations. (Snowden lived in GVA with a US diplomatic passport....) No other country has taken legal action as a result of the Snowden revelations, aside from CH.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

Thats not true. The memory of a standard sat nav is around 8gb for Ireland and UK, if they were to add the eircode to their existing database it would be a very small update, prob less than half a gb, plenty of room..

Adding the eircode would be of no use, because the eircode does not contain the location co-ordinates or any useful info (beyond the basic D4 or whatever postal district itis) The actual (constantly changing) database which the eircode "looks up" will not fit on a sat nav.