National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

MYOB wrote: »

Capita's reputation is bad across absolutely everything to do; not a situation of one or two projects out of thousands causing issues.

The whole outsourcing industry has a bad reputation, I don't think capita is any worse than any other company in the industry from what I can see. They have something like 30% market share for this business so they are bound to bare the brunt of most of these outsourcing mess ups

The main controversies have been around UK public service contracts. And yes capita have made some major screw ups here, but the UK government doesn't exactly have a good reputation of managing these contracts either.

Leonard Shelby

I had a look at the Oireachtas website and found this

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/pac/correspondence/2014-meeting1310307/[PAC-R-1444]-Correspondence-3B.1---Mr.-Eamon-Molloy-Irish-National-Postcode-System.pdf
It demolishes a number of myths perpetuated on this thread.

Cost vs Loc8
About 90% of the costs associated with postcode implementation relate to acquisition of source data for the postcode, encoding of databases and dissemination of the code, which apply regardless of the type of postcode chosen.
Myth: Busted.

No oversight/contract not awarded
The subsequent tender to support the Department in the overseeing of this and subsequent stages of project implementation has also been concluded.
Myth: Busted. The only company mentioned in the document is PA Consulting, so it must be them.

Individuals involved in the design are part of the winning consortium
Finally, the Capita consortium members do not include some of the companies named in the correspondence.
Myth: Busted.

National Address Agency/Changing addresses would be better
At the outset of the procurement exercise the issue of whether the postcode should in fact form the basis for a National Address Agency was examined and ruled out due to a number of factors including:

Authority/Remit of the Department

Addressing in Ireland is a complex matter that has a variety of actos, and it was outside the scope of the Department's powers to implement a National Address Agency. The Department has legislative power to implement a National Postcode System but not a National Address Register;

Avoidance of Address Changes

There is little evidence to support the view that the general public either want or need a national re-addressing exercise, whether that is part and parce of a national postcode project or not. Onr of the major benegits of the unique system now proposed is that householders will not be obliged or forced to change their addresses. Keeping existing addresses intact should support take up of Eircodes; and

Cost and Timeliness

Due to complexity of the issues, comprehensively resolving these would incur signigicant costs and time in addition to those associated with the establishment of a National Postcode System.
Myth: Busted.

SpaceTime

I still see a situation arising with these where they'll just be left totally unused like the 13 reports on Seanad Reform!

Tow

SpaceTime wrote: »

I still see a situation arising with these where they'll just be left totally unused like the 13 reports on Seanad Reform!

I am waiting for the general public to learn about the system and uproar it will cause on the Moan to Joe Show...
BTW, I believe they still have to award the IT side of the contract, here I was thinking it was all included in the 25M.

I am not sure what this Loc8 vs Cost myth is about?
The main advantage of a Loc8 type system is that access to the Subscription Database is not required for the Joe Public user. Just key the code into an 'Eircode Enabled' GPS and off you go. Cost to the GPS manufacture is minimal and cost to update new postcodes is zero. Cost to Joe Public to find an address by Eircode is zero, the functionality is just included in the next new model GPS they buy.
Profit for 'Eircode' provider is also zero... Then again, was it too much to hope that our 25+M of tax euros would provide a 'free' service to the nation.

ukoda

Tow wrote: »

I am waiting for the general public to learn about the system and uproar it will cause on the Moan to Joe Show...
BTW, I believe they still have to award the IT side of the contract, here I was thinking it was all included in the 25M.

I am not sure what this Loc8 vs Cost myth is about?
The main advantage of a Loc8 type system is that access to the Subscription Database is not required for the Joe Public user. Just key the code into an 'Eircode Enabled' GPS and off you go. Cost to the GPS manufacture is minimal and cost to update new postcodes is zero. Cost to Joe Public to find an address by Eircode is zero, the functionality is just included in the next new model GPS they buy.
Profit for 'Eircode' provider is also zero... Then again, was it too much to hope that our 25+M of tax euros would provide a 'free' service to the nation.

Joe Public can look up any Eircode on the Eircode website for free.
they can put it into Google Maps for free
they can put it into a sat nav for free

And please don't start this "google and sat nav won't use it" nonsense again

theres a lot of ignorant claims on this forum and it would be in peoples interests to actually read eircodes website and because it actually rubbishes a lot of the claims people are making on here

seriously, spend 10 mins on it www.eircode.ie

recedite

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

I had a look at the Oireachtas website and found this...
Individuals involved in the design are part of the winning consortium
Finally, the Capita consortium members do not include some of the companies named in the correspondence.
Myth: Busted.

Isn't that just a slightly backwards way of saying "not all the members of the Capita consortium were involved in the design phase of the postcode tender" ....how comforting.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Isn't that just a slightly backwards way of saying "not all the members of the Capita consortium were involved in the design phase of the postcode tender" ....how comforting.

No.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

Joe Public can look up any Eircode on the Eircode website for free.
...seriously, spend 10 mins on it www.eircode.ie

I don't see that facility on the website, at least not on it yet.
I suppose when the facility appears, someone will be able give you their eircode and you will be able to type in the eircode and a basic address associated with that eircode will come up.

Whereas now the person just gives you their basic address to start with.

Either way, you don't necessarily know where it is, or how to find it.

Possibly you will be able to take the eircode or the address and input it into google or a sat nav, which may pinpoint same on a map. But you can do that already.

Leonard Shelby

recedite wrote: »

I don't see that facility on the website, at least not on it yet.

In case you haven't noticed, Eircodes haven't been launched yet.

recedite wrote: »

I suppose when the facility appears, someone will be able give you their eircode and you will be able to type in the eircode and a basic address associated with that eircode will come up.

Whereas now the person just gives you their basic address to start with.

Either way, you don't necessarily know where it is, or how to find it.

Possibly you will be able to take the eircode or the address and input it into google or a sat nav, which may pinpoint same on a map. But you can do that already.

Wrong. If someone gives you a rural address at present the google map will only show you the townland. Giving an eircode will get you to the exact house.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Possibly you will be able to take the eircode or the address and input it into google or a sat nav, which may pinpoint same on a map. But you can do that already.

sweet lord almighty have you ever tried finding a rural address on any of the current sat navs??!! its pretty much impossible.

Eircode will bring up the exact address.

And as mentioned - they haven't launched yet. but if you had actually read the website you'd see the part where it says that the functionality will be available after launch.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

Joe Public can look up any Eircode on the Eircode website for free.
they can put it into Google Maps for free
they can put it into a sat nav for free



theres a lot of ignorant claims on this forum

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

If someone gives you a rural address at present the google map will only show you the townland. Giving an eircode will get you to the exact house.

Every single one of the above claims is untrue. The hypocrisy of the eircode fanboys is staggering.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Every single one of the above claims is untrue. The hypocrisy of the eircode fanboys is staggering.

and the absolute ignorance and arrogance of the some posters is mind boggling

I've already proven at least one of them is true, its only a matter of time until they are all proven true.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

Eircode will bring up the exact address.

The basic vague address, which you would already have anyway. But not the location co-ordinates.
Unless you are willing to pay for access to the database, which rumour has it is going to cost around €5000.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

I've already proven at least one of them is true, its only a matter of time until they are all proven true.

You have proven none of them to be true. So lets just stick to the facts, and not talk about pie in the sky.

Leonard Shelby

recedite wrote: »

The basic vague address, which you would already have anyway. But not the location co-ordinates.
Unless you are willing to pay for access to the database, which rumour has it is going to cost around €5000.

Try paying attention. The EXACT address location, on the google map, for FREE. The public are not going to be charged for looking up eircodes, stop repeating falsehoods.

recedite

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

If someone gives you a rural address at present the google map will only show you the townland. Giving an eircode will get you to the exact house.

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

The EXACT address location, on the google map, for FREE.

On the one hand you are saying google maps is not as good as eircode, but on the other hand you are saying the free eircode will just link onto a google map.

Here's a random house for sale in a rural area.
Type the address into the google map toolbar " Drum house, muff, donegal "

The exact house shows up on google maps. There is also a little cottage named beside it, but lets use the main house as an example because its for sale, and its advertised publicly.
I can read off the geo-cordinates from the toolbar; 55.0640651,-7.3380079
I can type the gps co-ordinates into a sat-nav and then drive there. The process is of course more awkward than just inputting a loc8 code directly.

And eircode hasn't even been launched yet. What advantage will I have knowing the eircode?

BTW I can also take the BER number from that estate agent's add and type it in here to get the MPRN address, which is a unique identifier for that property. So I get a slightly more detailed address; "DRUM HOUSE DRUMHAGGART MUFF CO. DONEGAL"

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

What advantage will I have knowing the eircode?

you'll have the advantage you just said yourself in that post - its far far far less awkward than googling it, getting geo codes, entering geo codes on sat nav

you just enter the eircode into sat nav.

are you even listening to yourself? every argument you make for how great Loc8 is - is exactly the same as how great eircode will be.

every "advantage" of Loc8code you list - is the exact same thing eircode will do.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

you'll have the advantage you just said yourself in that post - its far far far less awkward than googling it, getting geo codes, entering geo codes on sat nav

you just enter the eircode into sat nav.

are you even listening to yourself? every argument you make for how great Loc8 is - is exactly the same as how great eircode will be.

every "advantage" of Loc8code you list - is the exact same thing eircode will do.

Except that Loc8 codes are already here, and are not costing €25m to develop.

[I have no interest in Loc8 in anyway - I do not even have one myself, but I do recognise that they do provide a solution at much lower cost]

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

you just enter the eircode into sat nav.

Again you are talking in the present about something you hope will be possible in the future.

If Nokia, who own Navteq mapping, decide to (pay for?) and overlay their maps with every eircode location co-ordinate, and then Garmin make the update available for free on all their units. Then, and only then, would it work for people.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Except that Loc8 codes are already here, and are not costing €25m to develop.

[I have no interest in Loc8 in anyway - I do not even have one myself, but I do recognise that they do provide a solution at much lower cost]

Except Loc8code doesn't meet the requirements as set out by the department

Except the cost of designing the eircode is a tiny amount of the 25 million contract - the bulk of the cost (over 90%) is in the implementation

So just using loc8code would save very little money and we'd end up with a code that doesn't meet the requirement.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Again you are talking in the present about something you hope will be possible in the future.

If Nokia, who own Navteq mapping, decide to (pay for?) and overlay their maps with every eircode location co-ordinate, and then Garmin make the update available for free on all their units. Then, and only then, would it work for people.

and you're doing the exact same thing, talking in certainties about something you hope won't happen in the future.

At least I've a reasoned and logical approach to why i think it will happen and can back it up with reasonable arguments.

you are determined to see eircode fail and the country/public be at a disadvantage out of pure spite i reckon, and you're refusing to listen to anyone saying anything reasonable. your posts are full of wild speculation and sensationalist claims designed to over dramatise and scaremonger.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Except Loc8code doesn't meet the requirements as set out by the department

Except the cost of designing the eircode is a tiny amount of the 25 million contract - the bulk of the cost (over 90%) is in the implementation

So just using loc8code would save very little money and we'd end up with a code that doesn't meet the requirement.

The Eircode system misses on nearly every count of the design reqirement laid out for a postcode system. It is not too late for a redesign since we are only talking about the code itself.

If the implementation is paid for by the Government, then how come there will be charges for a look at the database?

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Eircode system misses on nearly every count of the design reqirement laid out for a postcode system. It is not too late for a redesign since we are only talking about the code itself.

If the implementation is paid for by the Government, then how come there will be charges for a look at the database?

No it doesn't, it won the tender because it met all the requirements, who's requirement are you talking about? some loc8code fanboys idea of a requirement? because the official requirement as outlined by the government is fulfilled by eircode


pay for it? because its a government service, we pay for government services, what makes you think we wouldn't?

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I've no connection to capita or any company to do with eircode.

In my short time actively posting on boards.ie I've been accused of working for: ESB, Meteor, UPC and now Capita.:rolleyes:(seriously check my post history)

Just because I'm not a sheep who jumps on the bashing everything bandwagon does NOT mean I've any vested interest. i don't.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

Tow

ukoda wrote: »

Joe Public can look up any Eircode on the Eircode website for free.
they can put it into Google Maps for free
they can put it into a sat nav for free

Please point me to the section where is it free or where it will be available on my GPS for free.

HOW CAN MY BUSINESS LICENCE EIRCODE DATA?
All postal addresses and their corresponding Eircode will be stored in the Eircode Address Database (ECAD) which will contain the Eircode, Postal Address, Aliases Addresses and Geo-Coordinates.
The ECAD contains all 2.2 million address points in the Republic of Ireland, 1.8 million residential and 400,000 non-residential addresses each with its own unique Eircode. Both English and Irish language versions of addresses are included.
If you purchase an annual licence to use the ECAD from Eircode or an approved Eircode Provider you will receive a complete edition of your chosen file at the point of purchase, followed by three quarterly update files. The files will be distributed electronically via our secure customer portal.
Businesses have two options to obtain the Eircode Data Set:
1. Purchase the Eircode Data Set through an Eircode Provider. From September 2014 our website will be updated with a directory of approved Eircode Providers, giving an indication of their products or services (recommended for small to medium business).
2. Purchase the Eircode Data Set directly and become an Eircode Provider or Direct User. An Eircode Provider is an organisation which is licensed to use Eircode Data in its products and services and can then sell these on to its own customers. A Direct User can only use the Eircode Data Set for internal use; they cannot sell these products or services to other companies.
For a full technical description of the ECAD register your interest on our website www.eircode.ie. Following registration you will be able to download the Technical Guide, which provides a full description of all the elements in each record and the data structure, as well as a sample data set.
A basic version of the Eircode Data Set will also be available called the Eircode Address File (ECAF) which contains just the Eircode and Postal Address.
HOW TO BUY
• To buy a software solution containing Eircode Data you can find a supplier through our online Provider Directory from September 2014.
• To buy data direct from Eircode and become an Eircode Provider complete our online registration form and you will be contacted by a member of our Customer Accounts team

.

ukoda

Tow wrote: »

Please point me to the section where is it free or where it will be available on my GPS for free.

.

what you've quoted is the section for businesses, what i said is that the general public will be able to validate an eircode online, buying the database to use in your business as a commercial investment is a different matter

I didn't claim i could prove the GPS side, if you read my posts you'll see i put forward reasons why i think it will be adopted by these companies and I've stated its only a matter of time before its proven that the GPS companies will use it

you've deliberately used a quote from an entirely different scenario that i wasn't talking about

Impetus

recedite wrote: »

Again you are talking in the present about something you hope will be possible in the future.

If Nokia, who own Navteq mapping, decide to (pay for?) and overlay their maps with every eircode location co-ordinate, and then Garmin make the update available for free on all their units. Then, and only then, would it work for people.

Even if (Navteq/Nokia/Microsoft) does take this Eirubbish on board, it won't matter much in terms of usability. You can walk past someone's door and see number 234 on it, even on a foggy winter night. And assuming there is a sign, you can see the name of the road in question. With a GPS you are depending on somewhat flaky technology controlled by another country. GPSs take time to find their location, and can often be a km or more out - especially when providing directions. If you are using a mobile phone - eg Android - having to use your GPS and the location tracking option must be on which means that your every movement is being tracked.

At least with newspapers you can buy a paper copy and read whatever you like without registering your interest in some story to the NSA, etc - which would happen if one looked at the same story online. People have a right to travel to places without Google & Co knowing their every move. This idiot postcode would force virtually everybody to effectively register their destination on the internet for any place they were unfamiliar with the directions to get to. And even if one knew where the place was and how to get there, but wanted traffic information to avoid delays, your destination would be registered on some network/networks. This is hardly the basis for a liberal progressive society.