National Postcodes to be introduced

G_R

From the RTÉ Website

RT&#201 wrote: »

The Government has approved the introduction of a national postal code. The Minister for Communications said tenders for the design and implementation of the system will be issued shortly.


Minister Ryan said he expects new postal codes with digits and letters to be introduced in 2011.


A Government commissioned report said codes would provide long term savings and demographic details for planning as well as benefitting emergency services.


An Post said it will be playing a key role in the move to postal codes which will involve coding 1.7 million addresses.


In 2005, the then Minister for Communications, Noel Dempsey, promised a new system by 2008. At the time An post questioned the need for postal codes and industry experts put the cost at €50 million


However, Mr Ryan today said the move would cost a fraction of the €50 million it was estimated to cost four years.

About time but 2011 seems like a long way off

could they not jus use an existing one like PONC or similar

dloob

Hopefully it will be like the PON codes.
Worst case would be like the UK system with An Post keeping the DB under lock and key.

L1011

Any system needs to actually bear resemblance to physical layout to be of any use, PON codes aren't. Shoving a PON code in to a GPS could leave you the other side of a railway line, river, motorway etc from the actual target.

Carawaystick

just heard this on rte tv news too.
some auld guff about demographics too.

garydubh

MYOB wrote: »

Any system needs to actually bear resemblance to physical layout to be of any use, PON codes aren't. Shoving a PON code in to a GPS could leave you the other side of a railway line, river, motorway etc from the actual target.

That's NOT at all correct..................

PON Codes have an average accuracy of +/-5 metres across the country - so physically impossible that they would take you the wrong side of a physical feature - they will take you along the approach road and go as far as to tell you which side of the road the destination is on and have been tested now successfully for 2 years on Garmin SatNav's!

You are most likely thinking of area based postcodes which the Government has been proposing up to now - 1 postcode containing around 80 houses (100's of square kilometers in rural areas!)- not suitable for finding anything, they will have to keep changing as new properties are added and if it is not a property it won't have a code at all - not suitable for SatNav's at all!

PON Codes can solve all these issues by offering codes for individual properties and non properties - any of which can be found by a SatNav!

L1011

garydubh wrote: »

That's NOT at all correct..................

PON Codes have an average accuracy of +/-5 metres across the country - so physically impossible that they would take you the wrong side of a physical feature - they will take you along the approach road and go as far as to tell you which side of the road the destination is on and have been tested now successfully for 2 years on Garmin SatNav's!

You are most likely thinking of area based postcodes which the Government has been proposing up to now - 1 postcode containing around 80 houses (100's of square kilometers in rural areas!)- not suitable for finding anything, they will have to keep changing as new properties are added and if it is not a property it won't have a code at all - not suitable for SatNav's at all!

PON Codes can solve all these issues by offering codes for individual properties and non properties - any of which can be found by a SatNav!

An accuracy of +/- 5 metres used with Navteq's often atrocious rural mapping can still leave you the wrong side of a physical divide. PON codes are basically GPS coords concatenated down.

Whereas proper geographic postcodes are far, far more usable for actual navigation - and the main purpose of POSTcodes - deliveries. A delivery driver can tell which deliveries are in the same rough area by postcodes; and if the system is designed properly (see the UK) isn't going to be left with two adjacent codes that happen to have a 20 mile drive between them.

Amtmann

Every street in the country is to get its own distinct postcode. From early 2011, the new six-digit postcodes mean old exclusive addresses such as Dublin 4 will disappear.
But it will still be possible to detect what's exclusive and what's not as the new Dublin 4 will become 'D04 123' -- with the last three digits specific to the house or business.
Outside of Dublin, counties will follow the car licence plate system with Galway becoming 'GAL 123'. Athlone town would become 'ATH 123'. The three digits pinpoint a road or a cluster of rural houses.
However, the changes will provoke debate in Gaeltacht areas where the likes of Dingle/Daingean obviously have different front three initials.
Communications Minister Eamon Ryan brought the proposals to Cabinet last week where they were signed off on by the Taoiseach and fellow ministers.
The job of setting up the new system will now go out to tender and is expected to cost between €10m and €15m. However, it is expected to save public bodies €22m, according to consultants' reports provided to the Government.
Ireland is the only European country without a postcode system in operation.
Last night, Mr Ryan told the Irish Independent: "A central part of our national infrastructure, this system will improve the delivery of post in Ireland."
The information is also likely to help the Government plan where new schools, hospitals and other social services are established. The emergency services will also be able to deploy more swiftly.
"The cost of the implementation will be more than met by the benefits identified. We need this system to develop the knowledge economy and link up policy planning across government,'' said Mr Ryan.
Society
"The benefits will be across society and are greater than can be quantified. This is a good move for Ireland," he added.
The Irish Exporters' Association previously claimed the absence of such a postcode system in Ireland added as much as 30pc to the An Post's sorting and routing costs.
Germany has had postcodes since the 1940s, the UK since the 1950s and the US since the 1960s.
The commitment to introduce a new postcode system featured in the Programme for Government negotiated by Fianna Fail and the Green Party in 2007. Since then, Mr Ryan commissioned two reports at a cost of some €500,000 to advise on how to set up the system.
With An Post preparing for the opening up of the Irish market to competition in 2010 under the EU's third postal directive, there is now an urgency to implement an efficient countrywide structure.
According to a report by PA Consulting, the introduction of the new system will save public bodies, including the emergency services, upwards of €22m because it enables cross-departmental sharing of public data and information.
Ireland's changing population also increases the need for an efficient database based on postcodes. The Government says the system will improve planning, health research, education, housing, social care and employment integration.
- ine Kerr Political Correspondent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/streets-filled-with-letters-as-postcodes-go-national-1891967.html

bk

MYOB wrote: »

An accuracy of +/- 5 metres used with Navteq's often atrocious rural mapping can still leave you the wrong side of a physical divide. PON codes are basically GPS coords concatenated down.

Whereas proper geographic postcodes are far, far more usable for actual navigation - and the main purpose of POSTcodes - deliveries. A delivery driver can tell which deliveries are in the same rough area by postcodes; and if the system is designed properly (see the UK) isn't going to be left with two adjacent codes that happen to have a 20 mile drive between them.

I strongly disagree, GPS coords maybe more accurate, but how many people actually know the GPS coords of their own home?

A PONC type system has the advantage of being close to the GPS coords, yet easy to remember. If people manage to learn their PONC then quickly people have a very good system to help them accurately locate places.

bk

FFS, so they have decided to go with one of the worst systems possible. :mad:

Amtmann

The Minister for Communications, Eamon Ryan, has announced that the Government is to introduce of a national postal code system from 2011.
Speaking this morning, Mr Ryan said such a system was necessary for the State's economic development and would save money for the State as a major postal customer.
"We can't afford not to do it, we need to move to a new digital economy. Postcodes are part of that, they actually make for a more efficient postal system . . . they also give you a location for a whole range of services which makes it easier to find where you want to go to in Ireland, and to get things done effectively and quickly.
"There are small upfront costs, but the returns across the economy are, in my mind, massive."
Noting Ireland was the only country in Europe that did not have a postal code, the Minister conceded there was a "slight nostalgia thing" over this, but he added: "The reality is it's not efficient, it doesn't work well. It's far more effective for us to have a specific address for each house, for each area, which is a mix of numbers of letters, and that allows post get there much more quickly, much more effectively.
Pointing out a new system could operate as a locational code system," Mr Ryan said: "For example, if you're going to fix a lamppost, you can actually put a location code based on the same postal code system, so you know exactly where it is."
The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources said a report from PA Consulting put the monetary benefits of postcodes to the State at €22 million in the medium term but that most of the benefits of such a type of system "cannot be accurately gauged in monetary terms".
The Department said data gathered would allow the Government to match demographic trends to its policymaking and would assist emergency services in reaching locations.
Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland , Mr Ryan said there was an estimated initial set-up cost of €10 million to €15 million required to allocate a code to every house and area and to feed this data into a computer system. This would take a year, but the system would bring an "immediate return" in terms of more efficient and effective service, Mr Ryan said.
"I think, actually, for a lot of rural Ireland, this is a real opportunity that you can start buying things through the Internet, get them to your house in a much more efficient way, and I think it is part of our modern infrastructure and we need it now."
The Minister said the Revenue Commissioners estimated it could save €2 million or €3 million a year over four or five years.
The Irish Exporters' Association (IEA) today welcomed the Minister's announcement.
The organisation's chief executive, John Whelan, called for the latest technology to be utilised in the new system. "There is opportunity for Ireland in coming late to the modern post code system to jump ahead of other countries who have for many years being using the post code system."
“The current postal system is inefficient and is believed to be adding 20 per cent to 30 per cent to the sorting/routing costs in An Post. Hence, it should be possible to introduce the system in a cost neutral way, offsetting capital cost with current operating savings.”
Mr Whelan added that the new system would give An Post a new range of marketing tools to consumers and industry. "There are a lot of corporations internationally who would be very anxious to piggyback on the back of the new system once it's in," he said.
The Department said it was envisaged that an alphanumeric postal system (ABC 123) would be used to identify clusters of houses. This would read, for example, as Ms. A Murphy Mr. B Collins Apt 7 Blue Building Main Street Pearse Street Athlone D02 123 ATH 123
However, the precise design of the new codes will not be finalised until the tender process is complete.
In 2005, former Minister for Communications Noel Dempsey announced Ireland was to introduce postcodes by January 1st 2008.
However, at the time, An Post has said the plan could be "controversial". It told a working group set up to examine the future of the company that a postcode system was not needed because it already had its own technical postcode, which combines the GeoDirectory national database with automated optical character-recognition sorting equipment.
An Post also said postcodes could be resisted by people who were attached to existing addresses, or who were concerned the new system would influence prestige, house prices and insurance costs.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0921/breaking20.htm

Judgement Day

Glad to see the Greens getting their priorities right - no money for cervical cancer inoculations but €10 million plus to quander on this nonsense. :mad:

ForiegnNational

Furet wrote: »

Since then, Mr Ryan commissioned two reports at a cost of some €500,000 to advise on how to set up the system.

Damn, I dibbed out. It only took me a couple of days and an hour or so's coding to create http://www.epostcode.ie/.

I know it is a PON system and accurate to only 30'/9m, but I should have got myself on one of those government commissions!

a_ominous

bk wrote: »

I strongly disagree, GPS coords maybe more accurate, but how many people actually know the GPS coords of their own home?

A PONC type system has the advantage of being close to the GPS coords, yet easy to remember. If people manage to learn their PONC then quickly people have a very good system to help them accurately locate places.

Every house already has a national grid coordinate on GEoDirectory and they could also provide longitude/latitude of these addresses.

fricatus

This GAL and ATH business in the Independent article. Has that actually been decided or is the format of the thing still a blank canvas?

Surely something like a postcode has to be very economical, i.e. give as much detail as possible in as few characters as possible? If that were the case, wouldn't it be more logical to use the car registration letters?

And going further again, why tie the postcodes to identifiable counties anyway? We have that ridiculous situation whereby people across the road from one another in some areas give a different county seemingly dependent on what hurling team they support (e.g. Killamery, Callan, Co Kilkenny or Killamery, Carrick-on-Suir, Co Tipperary). Or they put something like "Mooncoin via Waterford".

Surely the county system (while fine for GAA sports) is a bad basis for a postcode system. Would a Kilkenny person balk at a postcode like W09 123 or TS3 321? Would they adopt a neighbouring KK postcode, thereby leading to delivery delays?

Wouldn't it be better just to use the Q's and Z's of the PON codes, or else a string of numbers like they use in every other country?

Amtmann

fricatus wrote: »

Surely the county system (while fine for GAA sports) is a bad basis for a postcode system. Would a Kilkenny person balk at a postcode like W09 123 or TS3 321? Would they adopt a neighbouring KK postcode, thereby leading to delivery delays?

The county system in general has been - and is - disastrous for administration and governance in this country. And you're right; it should not be used for the new postcodes.

L1011

bk wrote: »

I strongly disagree, GPS coords maybe more accurate, but how many people actually know the GPS coords of their own home?

A PONC type system has the advantage of being close to the GPS coords, yet easy to remember. If people manage to learn their PONC then quickly people have a very good system to help them accurately locate places.

Yet it provides no way to batch off deliveries or tell where is near where - the main advantages to delivery / service provider / sales / whatever firms of postcodes.

Sponge Bob

a_ominous wrote: »

Every house already has a national grid coordinate on GEoDirectory and they could also provide longitude/latitude of these addresses.

They have a postcode system already on Geodirectory. Each county has a number . Galway is 27 and then each electoral district has a number

That would mean that 16144 is Kilkishen in Clare , another digit would suffice in rural areas .

The counties only go to 34 ( Monaghan ) so they could easily break Dublin and Cork up further with 40xxx 50xxx and 60xxx and 70xxx numbers .

BTW Some kind soul in the UK dumped their entire Postcode Database onto wikileaks complete with Long and Lat over the weekend

murphaph

MYOB wrote: »

Yet it provides no way to batch off deliveries or tell where is near where - the main advantages to delivery / service provider / sales / whatever firms of postcodes.

Couldn't a simple app be developed to process PON codes and batch them together for such purposes? I agree that unless postcodes are actually usable for such mail handling that they are largely useless.

I really like the idea of a code (like a PON code) that can locate fields and other non-building addresses.

bg07

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They have a postcode system already on Geodirectory. Each county has a number . Galway is 27 and then each electoral district has a number

That would mean that 16144 is Kilkishen in Clare , another digit would suffice in rural areas .

The counties only go to 34 ( Monaghan ) so they could easily break Dublin and Cork up further with 40xxx 50xxx and 60xxx and 70xxx numbers .

BTW Some kind soul in the UK dumped their entire Postcode Database onto wikileaks complete with Long and Lat over the weekend

That code that you refer to is just an id code that An Post give to each district election division in the country. DEDs date back to well before An Post was founded. DEDs are just a administrative break-up of each county that Victorians first did. The number of buildings in an ED can vary from 10 to 1000s. Therefore DEDs would be unsuitable for a postcode system.

However the GEOcode does assign an unique 8-digit code to each building in the country. But 8 digits would probably be too hard for people to use/remember. Also the numbers are assigned pretty much arbitrarily across the country (which may be a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it).

dloob

MYOB wrote: »

Yet it provides no way to batch off deliveries or tell where is near where - the main advantages to delivery / service provider / sales / whatever firms of postcodes.

Well it looks like it's not going to be a PON code system or one that helps batching delivers instead we have some half arsed solution so they can keep D4.

Sponge Bob

bg07 wrote: »

The number of buildings in an ED can vary from 10 to 1000s. Therefore DEDs would be unsuitable for a postcode system.

There are 3000+ EDs and less than 400 have 1000 households or more and 100 have 200 households or more. Less than 800 have 500 households or more .

Only 1 ED has more households than Leitrim @ 10578 vs 10541 and that is Blanchardstown ( census 2006 )

A Uk postcode is for 50 homes or so , eg AA1 1AA is a pack of 50 houses , AA1 1AB is another group etc .

Most EDs can be broken into 50s by adding a single digit at the end . It only gets a complicated where they have over 1000 houses . These are generally on city edges like Lucan Blanchadstown Knocknacarra which were rural when the ED system was invented so deploy a new county code for them I would think.

Here is a list of the bigger ones.

Fingal 009 Blanchardstown-Blakestown
South Dublin 015 Lucan-Esker
Meath County 055 Navan Rural
Kildare County 003 Naas Urban
Cork County 086 Douglas
Kerry County 165 Tralee Rural
Limerick County 051 Ballycummin
Fingal 016 Castleknock-Knockmaroon
Clare County 032 Ennis Rural
Louth County 027 Dundalk Rural
Cork County 075 Ballincollig
Kilkenny County 050 Kilkenny Rural
Kildare County 034 Celbridge
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown 057 Glencullen
Kildare County 039 Leixlip
Galway City 003 Bearna
South Dublin 032 Tallaght-Jobstown
Wicklow County 035 Kilmacanoge
Carlow County 019 Carlow Rural
Fingal 036 Swords-Forrest
Wexford County 123 Wexford Rural
Offaly County 002 Tullamore Urban
Donegal County 105 Letterkenny Rural
Louth County 001 Fair Gate
Kildare County 040 Maynooth
Cork County 082 Carrigaline
Kildare County 078 Morristownbiller
Limerick County 052 Ballysimon
Fingal 002 Balbriggan Rural
South Dublin 014 Firhouse Village
Laoighis County 071 Portlaoighise (Maryborough) Rural
Clare County 027 Clenagh
South Dublin 007 Clondalkin-Monastery
South Dublin 006 Clondalkin-Dunawley
Galway City 001 Ballybaan
Wicklow County 001 Arklow No. 1 Urban
Fingal 010 Blanchardstown-Coolmine
Waterford County 083 Tramore
Fingal 038 Swords-Lissenhall
Westmeath County 089 Mullingar Rural
Meath County 047 St. Mary's (part)
Cork County 096 Lehenagh
Kildare County 071 Kildare
South Dublin 010 Clondalkin Village
Wexford County 021 Enniscorthy Rural
Kerry County 001 Killarney Urban
Fingal 024 Howth
Fingal 034 Skerries
Meath County 016 Ratoath
Meath County 045 Julianstown
Sligo County 003 Sligo West
Meath County 008 Donaghmore
Dublin City 006 Ashtown A
Kildare County 066 Droichead Nua (Newbridge) Urban
Fingal 033 Rush
North Tipperary 004 Thurles Urban
Meath County 009 Dunboyne
Limerick County 065 Limerick North Rural
Wicklow County 056 Kilcoole
Dublin City 038 Clontarf East B
Louth County 041 St. Peter's
Dublin City 138 Rathmines West A
Louth County 007 Dundalk Urban No. 4
Fingal 019 Donabate
Fingal 028 Lusk
Mayo County 074 Castlebar Rural
Cork County 002 Cobh Urban
Fingal 003 Balbriggan Urban
Wicklow County 007 Wicklow Urban
Fingal 037 Swords-Glasmore
Mayo County 003 Castlebar Urban
Dublin City 030 Cabra East A
Wicklow County 034 Greystones
Cork County 010 Youghal Urban
Wicklow County 005 Bray No. 3
Westmeath County 003 Athlone East Rural
South Tipperary 086 Clonmel West Urban
South Dublin 039 Tallaght-Springfield
Cork County 101 Rathcooney (part)
Kerry County 003 Tralee Urban
Wicklow County 004 Bray No. 2
Fingal 029 Malahide East
Dublin City 147 South Dock
Cork County 260 Midleton Rural
Cork County 085 Cobh Rural
Louth County 003 West Gate
South Dublin 035 Tallaght-Kiltipper
Dublin City 059 Grange A
Fingal 035 Sutton
South Dublin 017 Lucan-St. Helen's
Dublin City 058 Grace Park
Dublin City 135 Rathmines East B
Meath County 092 Trim Rural (part)
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown 039 Dundrum-Sandyford
Kildare County 062 Clane
South Dublin 020 Palmerston West
Cork County 081 Caherlag
Louth County 030 Haggardstown
Fingal 026 Kinsaley
Kilkenny County 001 Kilkenny No. 1 Urban
Galway County 001 Ballinasloe Urban
Fingal 030 Malahide West
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown 059 Killiney South
North Tipperary 059 Roscrea

bk

murphaph wrote: »

Couldn't a simple app be developed to process PON codes and batch them together for such purposes? I agree that unless postcodes are actually usable for such mail handling that they are largely useless.

Ye, it would be relatively easy to do, PONC tends to lend itself to that.

murphaph wrote: »

I really like the idea of a code (like a PON code) that can locate fields and other non-building addresses.

Yes, it is great for that. Think monuments, beaches, etc.

It works really well with GPS, which in many ways is more important then the mailing side of it.

turgon

There was a guy who posted on the Politics board circa 6 months ago about a system his company made. It was a 6 or 7 digit alphanumeric code that could be converted into geographic co-ordinates. The advantage is that one would never need a database which means you would never need to update your GPS/Satnav. This system wont work like this with courier companies having to get updates every few months I presume? Which means cost etc.

Delphic

That was probably this one - www.gocode.ie - it uses a database but doesn't need to update existing information - you just add new buildings or places to it and you can use it on your mobile as well as web and satnav. The number of characters vary depending on how precise you need to be - so you have codes
like GOL-H4WTC for a street/house or GO9-696 693 for a lamp-post or pylon in the middle of a field or something. People can keep their existing addresses and put this at the end.

Sin e an Fear

Jeez, they've been saying 'to be or not to be' for the past five years.

An Post have a three-digit Presort system for sorting mail in bulk, which could be used as the basis of a postcode system. 101 is Dublin 1, etc, it goes all the way up to 962 for Carrigaline. You could add letters and/or digits to that - the Dutch system is four digits and two letters.

General Post Office, O'Connell Street, Dublin 1010 AA

An Post is always banging on about how superior their system is to anything else in the world, but why doesn't anyone else use it? The number of places with postcode systems is increasing.

Pity they didn't advise the Jamaicans, who went to all the trouble and cost of developing a postcode system four years ago, and then suspended it two years later.:P At least people got a chance to see what they looked like. (Not very attractive, or logical - Kingston 8 was JMAAW03.)

Empire o de Sun

I do see that advantage of having post codes, especially for internet shopping, but to have it down to your property it a bit too personal.

Allot of countries just a city/town or area codes. Like Germany, Australia, etc.

New Zealand has post codes but noone uses them.

bacon&cabbage

Nationwide did a piece last night on a Cork company using PONC

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1056890

The report starts at 0:08:10

Amtmann

NEXT Christmas will be the last one when greeting cards will be sent to old addresses before the conversion to nationwide post codes.

The new post-codes system will be in place right across the country by Christmas 2011, meaning everybody will have to update their address books.

The codes will be a combination of letters and numbers, giving each location a unique way to identify it.

The contract for the design and implementation of the post-code system went out to tender last week.

The Government's plan is to have the system in place by early 2011.

Communications Minister Eamon Ryan told the Irish Independent the post codes will be proceeding as planned with three letters and three numbers.

He said the system would be simple and there would be a link between the location and the code, so Cork will start with a C and so on.

"There will be a certain easy memorability in relation to the city or county," he said.

Cost

The cost of introducing the system was estimated two years ago at about €10m, but an up-to-date price will only be known from the tender documents.

The introduction of post codes is intended to boost the amount of mail being sent and increase national competitiveness. It will also make the postal sector more efficient and deal with the problem of the same address popping up in different locations.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/writings-on-the-wall-for-old-postal-system-1991585.html

garydubh

Furet wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/writings-on-the-wall-for-old-postal-system-1991585.html

Factually incorrect it seems - no invitation to tender for this has been published.

Apparently, this is all on hold as there are serious objections and the country will have to be rezoned into clusters of 40-50 properties. Nobody wants property re-zoning or re-valuation at this time - things are bad enough on the property front as it is....

Mike 1972

a_ominous wrote: »

Every house already has a national grid coordinate on GEoDirectory and they could also provide longitude/latitude of these addresses.

How many people know their Geodirectory code ?

dowlingm

Canada makes do with 6 letters/nos. for a massive land mass. US manages with 5 numeric.

Ireland, which you could drop into Northern Ontario and forget where you put it, needs 6 - linked to the GAA jersey. It's that kind of madness that got us Dublin 6 "West"

garydubh

dowlingm wrote: »

Canada makes do with 6 letters/nos. for a massive land mass. US manages with 5 numeric.

Ireland, which you could drop into Northern Ontario and forget where you put it, needs 6 - linked to the GAA jersey. It's that kind of madness that got us Dublin 6 "West"

Before you start over-reacting on how many characters are used - surely you must first decide what resolution it should have. Once you have decided resolution and therefore what problems it will solve and how easily it can be adopted/implemented, then you can start talking about numbers of characters and what it looks like.

There is more to this than just "how many characters will we have and what will it look like" - pity not too many folk are looking behind the characters. Current proposal is a single code for every 40-50 properties - with 6 characters - how will that help us find places in non urban Ireland where 40% of our population lives - more than anywhere else in Europe. And to make this work a lookup database has to be used meaning that all roads in the country have to be named , all properties numbered - thereby changing the addresses of 40% of the population and rezoning properties into clusters - resulting in properties in one townland being clustered with properties in another.

How come no-one is interested in these implications - just the superficial - "how many characters will it have" - seems to me that even Fianna Fail are going along with this proposal without even understanding that there will be countless delays due to litigation as 40% of the population has their address changed and property revalued as they get re-zoned into a new cluster of houses.

Forget about number of characters - start thinking what it does and how it does it instead!!! (eg how many properties have the same code under the Canadian system and did every road already have a name and every property a number? Also unforfunate that there is a postcode commencing with "KOK" - as for the US 5 character system - you cannot find a propery with this so there is an optional 4 more characters.
- its good to understand before you compare!!!)

Mike 1972

garydubh wrote: »

Current proposal is a single code for every 40-50 properties - with 6 characters - how will that help us find places in non urban Ireland where 40% of our population lives

How will it deal with new buildings (or groups therof) without endless (and messy) code changes ?

garydubh wrote: »

there will be countless delays due to litigation as 40% of the population has their address changed and property revalued as they get re-zoned into a new cluster of houses.

How many instances of litigation have there been over telephone area code changes ?

garydubh

Mike 1972 wrote: »

How will it deal with new buildings (or groups therof) without endless (and messy) code changes ?

Exactly - it will have to be constantly changed and updated - so as time goes on a property's code will change - causing even more upset!

Mike 1972 wrote: »

How many instances of litigation have there been over telephone area code changes ?

Tlephone numbers are not an issue as they are not not part of a property address - think Dublin 6W - mentioned already - there was huge public outcry which lead to the 6W compromise !

dowlingm

I hope it's future proofed for the "pending reintegration of the National Territory" or the SF boys will be most upset!

dowlingm

garydubh wrote: »

how many properties have the same code under the Canadian system and did every road already have a name and every property a number?

What I can say is you can drive into very remote parts of southern Ontario and see every house has a street number with a little sign on the road entrance - I've seen 5 digit "street" numbers e.g. "17111 Rural Road #2, Blahville, Ontario." But some places like First Nations Reservations don't have them in Northern Ontario.

Having gotten interested in this I checked out the Wiki article on Post codes in Canada and found this cautionary tale:

when the automated sorting system was initially conceived, the Canadian Union of Postal Workers and other relevant unions objected to it, mainly because the wages of those who ran the new automated machines were much lower than those who had hand-sorted mail. The unions ended up staging job action and public information campaigns, with the message that they did not want people and business to use postal codes on their mail. 20 March 1974 was declared "boycott the postal code day" and the union promised that letters without postal codes would be given preferential service. Eventually the unions started being compensated once the automated system was put into use

Mike 1972

garydubh wrote: »

Tlephone numbers are not an issue as they are not not part of a property address

In larger cities the first two or three digits of a telephone number indicate the area.

garydubh wrote: »

think Dublin 6W - mentioned already - there was huge public outcry which lead to the 6W compromise !

Why are gobdaws like this indulged ?

Actually I lived in 6W for a spell onetime. The confusion beteen 6 and 6W caused all sorts of problems with mail etc. The habit of people on the same street giving different area names in their address (Rathmines, Harolds Cross, Teranure, Kimmage) depending on what they wanted to prove made it worse :rolleyes: Even worse were places like Blackrock etc not wanting postal area codes at all

basabe

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In larger cities the first two or three digits of a telephone number indicate the area.

But does not have the impact of codes to be used as part of a property address.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Why are gobdaws like this indulged ?

Actually I lived in 6W for a spell onetime. The confusion beteen 6 and 6W caused all sorts of problems with mail etc. The habit of people on the same street giving different area names in their address (Rathmines, Harolds Cross, Teranure, Kimmage) depending on what they wanted to prove made it worse :rolleyes: Even worse were places like Blackrock etc not wanting postal area codes at all

Can you imagine what it is going to be like when a code must be introduced for every 50 properties in the whole country?

Mike 1972

Mike 1972 wrote: »

How many people know their Geodirectory code ?

Well, I just used the search facility and pinpointed my house - no address found! I also tried several other houses in the neighbourhood same result!

I even tried a local landmark hotel. wtf is the system broken or am I doing something wrong

garydubh

basabe wrote: »

Can you imagine what it is going to be like when a code must be introduced for every 50 properties in the whole country?

What about the residents of Dublin 4 who all have equal address status now - will it not be the case that under the current Government Proposal, those who get "D04 001" will definitely live in a more prestigious part than those in "D04 999" - the alarming part it might seem!!!! There will definitely be some serious petitions for boundaries to be redrawn!!!

goudystout

garydubh wrote: »

What about the residents of Dublin 4 who all have equal address status now - will it not be the case that under the current Government Proposal, those who get "D04 001" will definitely live in a more prestigious part than those in "D04 999" - the alarming part it might seem!!!! There will definitely be some serious petitions for boundaries to be redrawn!!!

Will there then be a "D04 001W" or even a "D04 999.5" ? - guess there will be some petitioners acommodated to keep things moving forward.

garydubh

garydubh wrote: »

What about the residents of Dublin 4 who all have equal address status now - will it not be the case that under the current Government Proposal, those who get "D04 001" will definitely live in a more prestigious part than those in "D04 999" - the alarming part it might seem!!!! There will definitely be some serious petitions for boundaries to be redrawn!!!

The best way to stop such shenanigans would be to use numbers by street type codes that have a sequence that is easy for An Post (and other services) to locate but your average snob would be unable to relate to!

redalicat

dowlingm wrote: »

US manages with 5 numeric.

Actually, it's 9. The first 5 are mandatory, and they add the +4 in processing.

From Wiki: "A ZIP + 4 code uses the basic five-digit code plus four additional digits to identify a geographic segment within the five-digit delivery area, such as a city block, a group of apartments, an individual high-volume receiver of mail or any other unit that could use an extra identifier to aid in efficient mail sorting and delivery. Initial attempts to promote universal use of the new format met with public resistance, and today the plus-four code is not required. In general, mail is read by a multiline optical character reader (MLOCR) that almost instantly determines the correct ZIP + 4 code from the address and—along with the even more specific delivery point—sprays a Postnet barcode on the face of the mailpiece that corresponds to 11 digits."

When I lived in the States, I found that when I wrote the +4 on the ZIP (postal) code, it did tend to get there faster by at least a day.

spacetweek

dowlingm wrote: »

Canada makes do with 6 letters/nos. for a massive land mass. US manages with 5 numeric.

Ireland, which you could drop into Northern Ontario and forget where you put it, needs 6 - linked to the GAA jersey. It's that kind of madness that got us Dublin 6 "West"

Rubbish. Canada's system is 6 alphanumeric chars - giving a theoretical total of 2.1 billion codes.
The USA's can only distinguish down to the building when the 4-digit extension is added (called the ZIP + 4 Code) - giving a 9-digit numeric code - which is a billion codes.
Ireland's will vary but most codes look like they'll be a character followed by 5 numbers - giving only 2.6 million possiblities.
So, Canada's system is 800 times higher res than ours, and the USA's is 400 times higher.
So I would hardly call ours overspecced.

As for jokers who write makey-up things like "Mooncoin via Waterford" as their address, they could - and should - have the envelope returned to them with "Address unknown" written on it. They'll soon learn.

And finally, as for public outcries over things like Dublin 6W - we shouldn't have given in to jokers more worried about keeping up with the Murphys and should have kept the integrity of the system intact. The great thing about the postcodes is that they'll establish a fixed set of rules for generating numbers for new areas - so "6W" nonsense won't be possible. Websites and printed-out forms will force 6 characters exactly to be entered and there'll be no messing about.

Amtmann

MINISTER FOR Communications Eamon Ryan has rejected Fine Gael claims that a proposed new postal code system will “merely slightly improve what is in place at present”.

Fine Gael communications spokesman Simon Coveney claimed during Dáil questions yesterday that the new postal system would cost €15 million to implement and “the system the Minister proposes to introduce will not bring the person with a letter or service directly to a person’s door or address without having local knowledge of the area”.

The Cork South Central TD said Mr Ryan had previously stated the postal system would only pinpoint areas on the basis of a code down to the nearest 20 or 50 properties.

“If such a system were introduced to rural Ireland with the ability to narrow down to between 20 and 50 properties, such a service would be no better than that which currently exists with the use of local districts or townlands.”

Mr Ryan said however: “The case is not as set out by Deputy Coveney”.

He told the House he would “within a week” start a “competitive process which should deliver quickly in terms of the exact system we introduce”.

The Minister stressed: “I am not rejecting any accurate system. It will be up to the competitive tendering process to decide on which system.”

Mr Ryan added: “Post codes are right for this country and, as well as providing an effective postal code system, they should have capability to provide location code facilities for a range of applications that will develop as the smart economy evolves.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0127/1224263210470.html

marmurr1916

MODERN technology such as internet mapping, Google maps and iPhones should be part and parcel of the proposed postcode system, an Oireachtas Committee believes.

Ireland is the only country in the EU that does not have postcodes, but if it is done correctly our system could be streets ahead of any other, Deputy Liz McManus, the report’s author, said.

The committee has recommended "a unique identifier system" for individual properties incorporating technologies such as internet mapping and iPhones.

The roll-out of the new system can only happen if certain obstacles are overcome, the committee’s report warned yesterday.

The report, published yesterday following submissions from various groups to the joint committee, stressed that the changing economic circumstances in Ireland meant the postcodes project needed to offer measurable benefits and be delivered at a reasonable cost.

Among the recommendations, the report states that the system of postcodes must be made appropriate to meet the current and future needs of the smart economy, and that a roadmap of implementation should be published by September 2010 and a facility for consultation provided to take into account concerns as they arise.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hi-tech-postcode-system-considered-116078.html#ixzz0jtA622f7

Sounds promising.

redalicat

From the Indo: Postcode rollout delayed again after technical glitch

GerardKeating

redalicat wrote: »

From the Indo: Postcode rollout delayed again after technical glitch

Do anyone know what the "serious technical error" was ???

Stinicker

redalicat wrote: »

From the Indo: Postcode rollout delayed again after technical glitch

Roll up Roll up, see the amazing fantastic E-Voting machines the sequel, coming soon to a postcode near you.

L1011

Can I take a guess at they realised very late on that there wasn't enough code-space for the entire country? Like, when they ran out with some counties left...

dbyrne

take one of the roads off TempleVille road, templeogue in dublin. The road has been name L8412 by the council recently. if the councils all over ireland are doing this would it not be easy to make up the address, 25 L8412, where the house number is 25 and the street code is L8412. to me that makes sense.