National Postcodes to be introduced

Tow

ukoda wrote: »

you've deliberately used a quote from an entirely different scenario that i wasn't talking about

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92072291&postcount=2946
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92072719&postcount=2951

ukoda

Tow wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92072291&postcount=2946
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92072719&postcount=2951

So I've said....

Joe Public will be able to look up an eircode for free
And it will work with sat nav for free (for the end user i.e. Joe Public)

i've already outlined exactly why i think this to be true in previous posts, and you've done nothing to prove me wrong

Sam Russell

My objections to the Eircode proposal are as follows:

1. It is a closed, pay for, computer based system. By this, I mean that all access is a cost based, coded format that has a primary design goal of generating funds.

2. I do not trust a system that has a private company using a national asset (if you can call it that) for private profit. It is a licence to print money.

3. It is badly designed if it leaves 80,000 addresses at the first level and then jumps to a random code to give individual addresses.

4. It will have postcodes that are completely forgettable, even by their owners. How it is expected anyone can remember their own code with 4 random alpha-numeric characters beggars belief.

It is not too late to redesign the code itself. This is another eVoting fiasco.

Peppa Cig

ukoda wrote: »

So I've said....

Joe Public will be able to look up an eircode for free
And it will work with sat nav for free (for the end user i.e. Joe Public)

i've already outlined exactly why i think this to be true in previous posts, and you've done nothing to prove me wrong

So in layman terms without trawling this massive thread, will i be able to enter an eircode into google maps on my phone to navigate to an eircode destination?

ukoda

Peppa Cig wrote: »

So in layman terms without trawling this massive thread, will i be able to enter an eircode into google maps on my phone to navigate to an eircode destination?

There'll prob be 20 people waiting to tell you that this won't be the case. But its highly likely, in fact, i would go so far as to say its inevitable.

But people with other interests will protest this to death

so I'm saying yes

Impetus

Tow wrote: »

Please point me to the section where is it free or where it will be available on my GPS for free.

.

You are wasting your time in IE.land. Move to Switzerland. Not only can you download the postcodes for free - you can also download the building numbers, street IDs street numbering ranges, from the Swisspost website.

Swisspost wants companies and everyone else to use the postal service to the max and makes it as easy as possible for anyone to integrate the entire country's database of addresses into their business system and use it as they wish. And there are a zillion postcode derived value added companies in Switzerland as a result, taking advantage of the opportunities that an infrastructurally efficient country offers to all comers.

And the job isn't outsourced either, because this is a key national infrastructural asset.

Sorry Mr Capita, I know you don't like the references to Switzerland, but the country continually ranks number one in the World Economic Forum Competitive rankings, year after year. They must be doing most things right....

http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015/rankings/

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

2. I do not trust a system that has a private company using a national asset (if you can call it that) for private profit. It is a licence to print money.

Capita are on a fixed cost contract for 10 years. they aren't able to generate private revenue from this.

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

There'll prob be 20 people waiting to tell you that this won't be the case. But its highly likely, in fact, i would go so far as to say its inevitable.

But people with other interests will protest this to death

so I'm saying yes

Aside from the issue of entering an "Eircode" - (TM applied for by Capita) and finding the location on Google maps, what if you don't know the Eircode? ie you have "the address" - which can be as mushy as a bog in some cases, you won't be able to find the point on the map for this address (assuming rural type address) and you won't be able to determine the Eircode. ie Google can probably zoom in on a townland but not on an individual property. So one is still dependent on calling the other party to get specific directions. Assuming you have their number and they are near a phone to answer etc. And in a rural area, assuming their mobile phone is within coverage area - with is a not insignificant issue.

Tow

So Tow gets the 2.2m Eircode to Geo-Coordinates database for free included in his shiny new GPS, but Tow PLC has to pay licence free for their 'special' business GPS?

Have you checked the costs for Geo Directory access? I would expect Eircode to be in the same region, if not more.

Or you can look up 5 addresses a day free here: http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

Capita are on a fixed cost contract for 10 years. they aren't able to generate private revenue from this.

Define private revenue please? Do you mean, for example that Capita can't blackmail you for privacy (ie threatening to publish your Eircode and name to the world over the net and otherwise, unless you play a fee for privacy?) Or that they can't sell your name and address to junkmailers ? or what?

ukoda

Tow wrote: »

So Tow gets the 2.2m Eircode to Geo-Coordinates database for free included in his shiny new GPS, but Tow PLC has to pay licence free for their 'special' business GPS?

Have you checked the costs for Geo Directory access? I would expect Eircode to be in the same region, if not more.

Or you can look up 5 addresses a day free here: http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

so less than 4k is the maximum charge, if only one of the largest mapping companies in the world (Navteq) could afford 4k to make their product infinitely better, maybe if they put a business plan together they might be able to get a bank loan for the 4k :roll eyes: but i'd say google will never be able to afford it for their maps :rolleyes:

and yes Tow gets it free as a consumer after he's purchased the sat nav, Tow Inc pays for the maps etc to make their product sellable because thats how business works

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Aside from the issue of entering an "Eircode" - (TM applied for by Capita) and finding the location on Google maps, what if you don't know the Eircode? ie you have "the address" - which can be as mushy as a bog in some cases, you won't be able to find the point on the map for this address (assuming rural type address) and you won't be able to determine the Eircode. ie Google can probably zoom in on a townland but not on an individual property. So one is still dependent on calling the other party to get specific directions. Assuming you have their number and they are near a phone to answer etc. And in a rural area, assuming their mobile phone is within coverage area - with is a not insignificant issue.

im not sure the relevance or point of this post in relation to the conversation, no code in the world can fix this problem?

are you just listing things that are bad in general or are you trying to relate this to an eircode failure? (because its not really)

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Define private revenue please? Do you mean, for example that Capita can't blackmail you for privacy (ie threatening to publish your Eircode and name to the world over the net and otherwise, unless you play a fee for privacy?) Or that they can't sell your name and address to junkmailers ? or what?

these are pretty wild claims. I just said Capita are on a fixed contract, I'm not sure how you relate this to blackmail and other dubious business practices

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

The basic vague address, which you would already have anyway. But not the location co-ordinates.
Unless you are willing to pay for access to the database, which rumour has it is going to cost around €5000.

Incorrect - you're mixing up potential commercial charges and the free facility for the public to look up the location of an eircode.

They've already said there will be a public website onto which anyone can go and enter an eircode and it will show a map with its exact location and the address associated with it. Alternatively, you can enter an address or one of its aliases and it will appear on a map showing its location and associated eircode. They say this will be a free public look-up facility.

Rumour about €5k is absolutely correct. It is a rumour. It appears to come from Freight Transport Assoc who have been complaining about the cost of the code and its design.

I suspect that a single copy/single user of the database for internal use will cost a lot less, but I have no facts to base that on, except seeing how these database services are sold elsewhere in the world.

If Eircode's minimum price for getting a copy of the database - without any coordinates - as FTA claim is €5k, they're going to have a hell of a job selling anything.

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

these are pretty wild claims. I just said Capita are on a fixed contract, I'm not sure how you relate this to blackmail and other dubious business practices

Don't be naive. Blackmail can be dressed up, like a Mafia guy from Sicilia selling a cafe owner protection from nasty things happening against his premises. I'm not suggesting that Capita is part of the Mafia or anything like that. However I don't want them to get away with recording my address in their database of dyrfunctional Eircodes. Ireland is a Republic - ie a country owned by its citizens. It should not be allowed to be owned by racketeers, "imperial" or otherwise.

Have a look at Capita's "client list".

Impetus

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Incorrect - you're mixing up potential commercial charges and the free facility for the public to look up the location of an eircode.

They've already said there will be a public website onto which anyone can go and enter an eircode and it will show a map with its exact location and the address associated with it. Alternatively, you can enter an address or one of its aliases and it will appear on a map showing its location and associated eircode. They say this will be a free public look-up facility.

Rumour about €5k is absolutely correct. It is a rumour. It appears to come from Freight Transport Assoc who have been complaining about the cost of the code and its design.

I suspect that a single copy/single user of the database for internal use will cost a lot less, but I have no facts to base that on, except seeing how these database services are sold elsewhere in the world.

If Eircode's minimum price for getting a copy of the database - without any coordinates - as FTA claim is €5k, they're going to have a hell of a job selling anything.

If I am a tourist or business visitor, truck driver in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, USA, Italy, Poland, Spain, Scandinavia and similar I can find an address in a town by looking for the street/road and finding the building number. Just follow the signs.

Please tell me why I should have to pay extortionate roaming data charges, and tell Google & Co where my destination is, to find a house, farm, business premises etc in Ireland? It is just a pig inefficient, bureaucratic, ripoff.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Don't be naive. Blackmail can be dressed up, like a Mafia guy from Sicilia selling a cafe owner protection from nasty things happening against his premises. I'm not suggesting that Capita is part of the Mafia or anything like that. However I don't want them to get away with recording my address in their database of dyrfunctional Eircodes. Ireland is a Republic - ie a country owned by its citizens. It should not be allowed to be owned by racketeers, "imperial" or otherwise.

Have a look at Capita's "client list".

errr its a bit dodgy accusing them of this without evidence, and they won't be "getting away with" storing your eircode - they'll be doing what the government employed them to do - so its their job to manage/store your eircode

also, the government have made it clear that given the importance of the contract, that they would be managing capita very closely

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

If I am a tourist or business visitor, truck driver in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, USA, Italy, Poland, Spain, Scandinavia and similar I can find an address in a town by looking for the street/road and finding the building number. Just follow the signs.

Please tell me why I should have to pay extortionate roaming data charges, and tell Google & Co where my destination is, to find a house, farm, business premises etc in Ireland? It is just a pig inefficient, bureaucratic, ripoff.

ah come on, you can navigate Ireland offline too. And i'd say these days you'd be hard pressed to find a tourist who doesn't use their smart phone when navigating abroad.

I use mine in the US and Spain all the time, i'd have no idea how to navigate without it

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

I use mine in the US and Spain all the time, i'd have no idea how to navigate without it

Probably because you have a street address to find - eg
Av. Diagonal 661 - 08028 - Barcelona

Which allows you if in a car to drive down Av Diagonal, which is a very long boulevard that is as wide as Barcelona - and get off while approaching 861.

And of course being a tourist in another country/state is a lot different from a know where to go / privacy perspective. If you have to rely on GPS devices on a daily basis, all your movements are tracked, especially on Google and similar. And you will pay extortionate broadband charges on your mobile phone.

But of course every intelligent person knows that. So you must be connected with Capita.....

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

also, the government have made it clear that given the importance of the contract, that they would be managing capita very closely

Which gov, when? Pardon me while I attempt to disguise/hide/prevent my outburst of laughter. It is so humiliating for us Japanese.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

But of course every intelligent person knows that. So you must be connected with Capita.....

theres no need to resort to personal insults, and I've already explained i don't work for capita or have any connection to them

heres what i said about that in case you missed it

I've no connection to capita or any company to do with eircode.

In my short time actively posting on boards.ie I've been accused of working for: ESB, Meteor, UPC and now Capita.(seriously check my post history)

Just because I'm not a sheep who jumps on the bashing everything bandwagon does NOT mean I've any vested interest. i don't.

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

theres no need to resort to personal insults, and I've already explained i don't work for capita or have any connection to them

Well if you take it that working with Capita is insulting to you, so be it. While one as no evidence of your employment by that company, your postings present a certain whiff.... if you will forgive the expression.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Well if you take it that working with Capita is insulting to you, so be it. While one as no evidence of your employment by that company, your postings present a certain whiff.... if you will forgive the expression.

you know exactly what i meant. and no one has any evidence of anyones connections to anything here. we are all just giving opinions and debating our views.

I just happen to have a different view to you on this one, I'm sure we'd agree on other things tho

tvc15

Impetus wrote: »

Well if you take it that working with Capita is insulting to you, so be it. While one as no evidence of your employment by that company, your postings present a certain whiff.... if you will forgive the expression.

This is getting a bit ridiculous and far too personal, either the user Impetus is a troll trying to take the piss or has some serious problems. This thread has gone completely off the rails with conspiracy theorys and personal accusations, it's begging to be locked!

How did a thread about postcodes get so heated?

Bray Head

The privacy concerns are overblown.

For example my house has the number on the gate and the roadsign on the wall. Instant input into Bing, Apple or Google maps will take you to it instantly. The index of the Collins Dublin street map will do nearly as good a job, as my house number is within a fifty-metre range. Basically, anyone who has my address (this is in the dozens, from my employer to utility providers to the taxman) can find my house. I am happy about this as I live in a society with institutions healthy enough not to abuse this. Simply overlaying a coding system onto this is not going to keep me awake at night.

By the way it is impossible to keep the physical location of a dwelling a secret in Ireland, unless of course you don't want electricity or postal deliveries or planning permission in the first place. Revenue might also have a problem with it. Eircode will not change this.


The fact that there is going to be a charge for the use of this service is also completely banal. There are multiple monopoly goods owned or administrated by the government that you have to pay for the use of and cannot live your life without. These are things like a passport, the entire road network, registration of births, a driving test, etc.

The fact that this has been awarded to a private company on a fixed-term basis after tender is also unremarkable. Many state-owned monopolies (CIE, An Post) deliver services on a permanent basis with no tender! Maybe people would prefer if a National Postcode Authority had been set up staffed by civil servants. Others would then complain about the high cost of consultants even though it should come as no surprise that design and implementation of a postcode is something you should really employ people with expertise in.

TheBustedFlush

Bray Head wrote: »

The privacy concerns are overblown.

For example my house has the number on the gate and the roadsign on the wall. Instant input into Bing, Apple or Google maps will take you to it instantly. The index of the Collins Dublin street map will do nearly as good a job, as my house number is within a fifty-metre range. Basically, anyone who has my address (this is in the dozens, from my employer to utility providers to the taxman) can find my house. I am happy about this as I live in a society with institutions healthy enough not to abuse this. Simply overlaying a coding system onto this is not going to keep me awake at night.

By the way it is impossible to keep the physical location of a dwelling a secret in Ireland, unless of course you don't want electricity or postal deliveries or planning permission in the first place. Revenue might also have a problem with it. Eircode will not change this.


The fact that there is going to be a charge for the use of this service is also completely banal. There are multiple monopoly goods owned or administrated by the government that you have to pay for the use of and cannot live your life without. These are things like a passport, the entire road network, registration of births, a driving test, etc.

The fact that this has been awarded to a private company on a fixed-term basis after tender is also unremarkable. Many state-owned monopolies (CIE, An Post) deliver services on a permanent basis with no tender! Maybe people would prefer if a National Postcode Authority had been set up staffed by civil servants. Others would then complain about the high cost of consultants even though it should come as no surprise that design and implementation of a postcode is something you should really employ people with expertise in.

Far too much common sense in that post. You won't last long on here ....

recedite

Peppa Cig wrote: »

So in layman terms without trawling this massive thread, will i be able to enter an eircode into google maps on my phone to navigate to an eircode destination?

The honest answer is we don't know. That depends on whether Google want it to happen or not.
It seems odd that a piece of "national infastructure" which is costing the taxpayer €25M to set up, plus ongoing maintenance costs, will depend on the whim or goodwill of foreign multinationals such as Google and Nokia to have any usefulness to the general public.
If Google think they can profit from knowing where you are going, they will probably facilitate this.

Impetus

tvc15 wrote: »

This is getting a bit ridiculous and far too personal, either the user Impetus is a troll trying to take the piss or has some serious problems. This thread has gone completely off the rails with conspiracy theorys and personal accusations, it's begging to be locked!

How did a thread about postcodes get so heated?

I can assure you that Impetus is no "troll". He has lived in countries that use intelligently designed postcodes and street addresses for several decades and has observed the benefits they provide to everybody.

One suspects that those responsible for designing the Eircode have been living on an island with rather poor infrastructure levels for most or all of their lives.

The evidence on Capita is in the newspapers and on the web and links have been provided. Judge for yourself.

Impetus

recedite wrote: »

The honest answer is we don't know. That depends on whether Google want it to happen or not.
It seems odd that a piece of "national infastructure" which is costing the taxpayer €25M to set up, plus ongoing maintenance costs, will depend on the whim or goodwill of foreign multinationals such as Google and Nokia to have any usefulness to the general public.
If Google think they can profit from knowing where you are going, they will probably facilitate this.

Google will almost certainly incorporate the Eircode to enhance advertising opportunities and stickiness of the Google services. And while I have no doubt that Google will make a best efforts attempt to keep the data as private as possible, there is no shortage of reports of government organised theft of traffic data as it travels to or from Google and other search engine servers. Like many people steal electricity from the public street network in many third world countries. Even if Google encrypted all this traffic - which would be a big job - money can change hands quietly between employees or contractors who have access to private keys to allow the snoopers to continue snooping post encryption.

Leonard Shelby

Peppa Cig wrote: »

So in layman terms without trawling this massive thread, will i be able to enter an eircode into google maps on my phone to navigate to an eircode destination?

Yes.