National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

_Puma_ wrote: »

Couldnt care less if the govenrment are worried or not, I think its pretty obvious the whole thing has been fudged from the get go it has deviated so much from the guidelines.

However if the FTAI believe that Eircode amounts to state aid for an Post do you really think that all the Courier companies under them are going to leverage Eircode in their delivery process, bearing in mind it will cost a lot of money for these companies to adapt to include Eircode. If they believe Eircode amounts to state aid I'm pretty sure they are not going to lose sleep if Eircode dies a death and will go on using the system in use now. All Eircode will be good for is filling out a form for revenue and we end up with another white elephant.

I think Nightlines position is very curious. If Eircode is not adopted by all the courier companies then there supposed support of it will become irrelevant. Eircode either gets adopted by the general public to such an extent that it is commercially viable or it does not. You wont see people all deciding to switch to Nightline because they use Eircode.

What would have made sense is if Eircode was trialled for period before the rollout. Still haven't read a reason why it wasn't.

If the general public start to use ericode (and nothing suggests they won't) then the FTAI members are not going to sit on their hands and not use it, eventually once they realise they can actually leverage ericode to their advantage they will start to use it. Because they are not stupid enough to ignore a code on all their packages that gives them the geo code of each parcel.


All this "we won't use it" stuff is to try and stop the launch, once they come to the realisation that they've failed on that task, then they'll have to take stock and swallow their pride, because the likes of Nightline will already have a competitive advantage over them, thus reducing their cost, thus allowing them to bid for delivery contracts at a cheaper rate. So yes everyone might end up switching to Nightline, the general public don't have a choice of courier when they order online, they get their delivery from the courier who won the contract from Amazon or apple etc that can provide the fasted service at the lowest cost.

FTAI have already started to shift their position and have called on their members to help map the polygons of the routing keys so ericode can be "of some use" to them.

_Puma_

Perhaps it will see a take up to make it commercially viable, perhaps it wont. No one knows and is what a Pilot scheme would have demonstrated and again we still haven't been told why there wasn't one. What we do know for sure is that Government departments will use Eircode and I think this is its primary purpose, the usefulness of it as a Geo ref code or for Couriers to route mail will be irrelevant.

Personally I stick to the philosophy if you are going to do something, do it right. The whole thing is coming across as another Irish water or Voting machines. A good idea but badly implemented by the government.

ukoda

_Puma_ wrote: »

Perhaps it will see a take up to make it commercially viable, perhaps it wont. No one knows and is what a Pilot scheme would have demonstrated and again we still haven't been told why there wasn't one. What we do know for sure is that Government departments will use Eircode and I think this is its primary purpose, the usefulness of it as a Geo ref code or for Couriers to route mail will be irrelevant.

Personally I stick to the philosophy if you are going to do something, do it right. The whole thing is coming across as another Irish water or Voting machines. A good idea but badly implemented by the government.

Auto address have a blog that says why a pilot wasn't done, it's basically along the lines of "how would you pilot it, ot would involve giving a postcode to a selection of the population, but how would they use it if no companies had interfaced ericode into their systems"

Something to that effect anyway

SpaceTime

ukoda wrote: »

Auto address have a blog that says why a pilot wasn't done, it's basically along the lines of "how would you pilot it, ot would involve giving a postcode to a selection of the population, but how would they use it if no companies had interfaced ericode into their systems"

Something to that effect anyway

You could easily pilot it in one area - Take I donno, 'greater Dingle' or something.
Or that place Enda comes from.

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

You could easily pilot it in one area - Take I donno, 'greater Dingle' or something.
Or that place Enda comes from.

What would the people of that area do to pilot the code? No mapping company had it, it's not in any database, it won't validate any addresses?

plodder

I'm not sure about piloting either. The country is too small really. Though if the launch flops with codes not getting delivered properly, then maybe there would be a point.

But, related to that is consulting with the public. They should have done that to find out what kind of code people would like. Radical idea, to be sure though..

What would the people of that area do to pilot the code? No mapping company had it, it's not in any database, it won't validate any addresses?

They would be able to do whatever all of us will be able to do with it next week..

_Puma_

Any postcode that ive read up on has been piloted, be it at a city or district level first. It seems to be best practice internationally and was included in the guidelines. I'm sure An post would have been accommodating since it seems to have been designed to meet their needs. Id be more curious to find out if An post were ever asked to Pilot it or did they refuse to do so. I generally take anything written by a blog that has "Debunking 13 anti - Eircode arguments" with a pinch of salt, similiar to the Eircode get Lost twitter. Whatever about being pro or anti eircode I'm more worried about the actual real world usefulness of it.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

I'm not sure about piloting either. The country is too small really. Though if the launch flops with codes not getting delivered properly, then maybe there would be a point.

But, related to that is consulting with the public. They should have done that to find out what kind of code people would like. Radical idea, to be sure though..


They would be able to do whatever all of us will be able to do with it next week..

So to pilot it, they should fully integrate it with the governments databases, basically they would have to do as much work to pilot it as to actually launch it. It wouldn't be cost effective. We've already seen PayPal have integrated eircode so it's likely many other companies already have, this would all have had to be done to pilot....

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

So to pilot it, they should fully integrate it with the governments databases, basically they would have to do as much work to pilot it as to actually launch it. It wouldn't be cost effective. We've already seen PayPal have integrated eircode so it's likely many other companies already have, this would all have had to be done to pilot....

Piloting might make sense so long as the actual design is decided on, and not going to change. What you would be testing out is how best to deploy and disseminate it. Public consultation should have been done during the design process.

recedite

plodder wrote: »

Announced by who though? I doubt the state would be endorsing any code that would compete with Eircode..

That will presumably be Go-code, owned by the same people that were involved in organising the original govt. tender, and subsequently got together the Capita consortium which produced eircode and won the tender.

_Puma_ wrote: »

No one knows and is what a Pilot scheme would have demonstrated and again we still haven't been told why there wasn't one.

Another reason is that the pay-per-access database look-up system on which it relies does not become legal until next week.
Maybe you could consider the trial as starting next week, as a 26 county trial.

_Puma_

I don't think you appreciate what I mean about a Pilot scheme, a trial fair enough where it is rolled out and limited access is provided to say An Post but what is happening now gives no option to refine , it is a pure take it or leave it situation,

The Leap card seems to have been a good example of a Pilot scheme. It is being rolled gradually and seems to have sustainable Organic growth to warrant a Nationwide roll-out.

Trouwe Ier

I wish they’d put something new on their website, especially on the measly and outdated “News” page.

Correct me if I am wrong but so far as I know, no-one exercised their right to seek an injunction or a judicial review in the Irish courts.

The process was certainly lengthy and there may well have been some sharp practice at procurement, consultation and design stages. Moreover, the objectors may well have reasonable and informed cause for complaint but their M.O. is irrational.

Joe Leogue from the Irish Examiner is taking a keen interest in this but thus far, no other journalist seems that bothered.

Confined journalistic interest and no legal proceedings: just “trial by tweet” ad-infinitum

As I’ve said previously, would we really want entities who tweet like this to be awarded such an important contract?



The latest below, courtesy of "hootsuite"

headlineauto_ED 1:50pm via TweetDeck
FTA Ireland takes Eircode battle to the EU bit.ly/1LWKprv @newsfromfta
loc8code 1:45pm via Twitter Web Client
Nightline talked about #Eircode in the context of a "protectionist stance" by @Postvox & @GeoDirectory_ie helped too
FTA Ireland @newsfromftai
#Eircode is not a postcode, merely a protection measure for a loss-making @Postvox.
We ask @EU_Commission to review.
ftai.ie/news-item/New_…
newsfromfta retweeted
newsfromftai 1:34pm via Twitter Web Client
#Eircode is not a postcode, merely a protection measure for a loss-making @Postvox.
We ask @EU_Commission to review.
ftai.ie/news-item/New_…
1 retweet
newsfromftai 1:34pm via Twitter Web Client
#Eircode is not a postcode, merely a protection measure for a loss-making @Postvox.
We ask @EU_Commission to review.
ftai.ie/news-item/New_…
1 retweet
AhJaysusHowaya 1:28pm via Mobile Web
It does seem #Eircode is imploding.

Eircode is useless, says transport and courier trade body | Irish Examiner irishexaminer.com/ireland/eircod…
loc8code retweeted
NewspressIE 12:59pm via IFTTT
Freight Transport Association Ireland : FTA IRELAND TAKES EIRCODE BATTLE TO THE EU ift.tt/1RTzHDC
1 retweet 1 favorite
NewspressIE 12:59pm via IFTTT
Freight Transport Association Ireland : FTA IRELAND TAKES EIRCODE BATTLE TO THE EU ift.tt/1RTzHDC
1 retweet 1 favorite
GlenCDC 12:53pm via Facebook
Kept busy at our offices in Clondoyle this week with - Care and Repair Workshops, An Eircode Information event,... fb.me/2lwkWfSyU
GetLostEircodes 12:48pm via Twitter Web Client
@Mark_Coughlan And Eircode won't help one iota because An Post won't be using them.
Show Conversation
loc8code 12:39pm via Twitter Web Client
@GeoDirectory_ie how do you feel about fact that #Eircode does not ID locality like a postcode's supposed to?
geodirectory.ie/Home/Postcodes…
Show Conversation
GeoDirectory_ie 12:33pm via TweetDeck
Get #Postcode ready and don’t let your #competitors steal a march on you! Find out more… #Eircode bit.ly/1GZAEr8
eastsmer retweeted
irishexaminer 8:00am via TweetDeck
Eircode is useless, says transport and courier trade body, reports @JoeLeogue | exa.mn/wvn (RMC)

8 retweets
loc8code 12:24pm via Twitter Web Client
that's this #Eircode piece:
youtube.com/watch?v=o4fEow… twitter.com/colmomongain/s…

1 favorite
loc8code retweeted
irishexaminer 8:00am via TweetDeck
Eircode is useless, says transport and courier trade body, reports @JoeLeogue | exa.mn/wvn (RMC)

8 retweets
Gamma_irl 12:16pm via Silver Bird Plus
@loc8code Our clients activities aren't important. All of these sectors are ready and waiting for eircode and eager to implement and use.
Show Conversation
colmomongain 11:53am via Twitter Web Client
@Mark_Coughlan Karmic postal payback for that eircode piece...
3 favorites
Show Conversation
loc8code 11:40am via Twitter Web Client
@Gamma_irl @bazohaz yes was at meeting where #Eircode was promoted for financial profiling - Im sure they are main orgs in favour :-)
Show Conversation
loc8code 11:34am via Twitter Web Client
2nd EC complaint re #Eircode plus PAC & JCTC, C&AG investigation, Industry complaints, DPC concerns + "untruths"
Joe Leogue @JoeLeogue
The European Commission has received a formal complaint alleging that Eircode amounts to unfair state aid to An Post exa.mn/wvn
loc8code retweeted
monaghanpenguin 10:04am via Twitter for Android
“specious, inaccurate, unsubstantiated, invented, illogical, and non-evidence based reasoning" irishexaminer.com/ireland/eircod…
2 retweets 1 favorite
Gamma_irl 11:09am via Twitter Web Client
@bazohaz Hi Barry, Interesting report regarding upcoming postcode. Lots of orgs in favour of eircode. Happy to talk to you about pos view.
loc8code 10:45am via Twitter Web Client
@AlexWhiteTD This should happen before #Eircode could proceed - full report here:
myloc8ion.com/res/images/sli…

Gamma_irl retweeted
autoaddress 9:14am via Twitter Web Client
#Eircode FAQ No. 15
Q: Does Eircode support navigation, route planning, or route optimisation?
A: Yes. Can be done with just a smartphone
1 retweet
loc8code 10:27am via Twitter Web Client
What can you conclude about #Eircode:
read the full report - myloc8ion.com/res/images/sli…

1 favorite
loc8code retweeted
GetLostEircodes 10:20am via Twitter Web Client
Some truths about #Eircode our soon to be launched DONKEY of a postcode system

1 retweet 1 favorite
loc8code 10:21am via Twitter Web Client
Nightline said @Postvox approached #Eircode with "protectionist stance" So now their agenda means useless postcode

GetLostEircodes 10:20am via Twitter Web Client
Some truths about #Eircode our soon to be launched DONKEY of a postcode system

1 retweet 1 favorite
loc8code 10:07am via Twitter Web Client
none of @autoaddress @Postvox @AlexWhiteTD said how you can manually sort 139 #eircode RKeys to 200+ Delivery Units without ref to posttown
mrk_krwn retweeted
monaghanpenguin 10:04am via Twitter for Android
“specious, inaccurate, unsubstantiated, invented, illogical, and non-evidence based reasoning" irishexaminer.com/ireland/eircod…
2 retweets 1 favorite
monaghanpenguin 10:04am via Twitter for Android
“specious, inaccurate, unsubstantiated, invented, illogical, and non-evidence based reasoning" irishexaminer.com/ireland/eircod…
2 retweets 1 favorite

larchill

If you go to autoaddress.ie, there's more recent activity there. There is a dummy search example here using eircode.This may well be where all the action is going to be?

ukoda

http://postandparcel.info/65982/news/the-sooner-eircode-is-introduced-the-better-says-nightline-ceo/

So Nightline released a statement saying "the sooner eircode is introduced the better"

Say it's will make them more efficient

Also they say that eircode has scope to be tweaked after launch. Not sure what they mean here


And this:

"Sources have told Post&Parcel that the Communications Regulation (Postal Services) Amendment Bill 2015 – the law which ushers in Eircode – is due to be signed into effect next Wednesday by the country’s president. The launch will then take place on Monday the 13th of this month."

I wonder if that's true and then why push for a motion to get it signed in less than 5 days?

Trouwe Ier

Another hold-up!

He doesn't have to accede to the request, only sign between the fifth and seventh day after passage is confirmed so he is leaving it late.

What's another week after about 300 on this thread?

It doesn't look like the presidential diary is very over-booked at present.

Reproduced from: http://www.president.ie/en/diary

Week beginning 06th July, 2015
There are no entries for this period.

SUN
05
JUL
President attends a memorial concert in honour of the late Tom Feeney and unveils a plaque
19:00 St. Patrick's Band Hall, Foster Street, Galway

FRI
03
JUL
President hosts a Garden Party
14:30 Áras an Uachtaráin

THU
02
JUL
President receives representatives of Bodywhys on the occasion of their 20th anniversary
14:30 Áras an Uachtaráin

President officially opens the Irish Humanitarian Summit
09:30 O'Reilly Hall, UCD

antoinolachtnai

I understand that the plan is to put names on the letters to non-unique addresses.

The names will come from other sources that An Post has. I imagine that this will include the TV licence database. How accurate this database turns out to be will be interesting to see.

The actual point of the amendment was to protect this use of personal data against legal challenges or other types of challenge. It has nothing to do with protecting consumers (and indeed, it doesn't protect consumers).

The postmen/women will deliver this stuff on Saturdays, so there will be good overtime to be had and I would think that this will drive up the cost well beyond the original estimate for the 'dissemination', but there is no way to be sure until the bill comes in. It is impossible to know how many weeks it will take the postal person to do the work. The task is completely unique for each area, so each post person will really have to work at their own pace.

The postal personnel will have the benefit of a map showing the eircodes. I would be very cautious about this plan if I were them. Maps are tricky to read accurately if you aren't used to it (and postmen aren't used to reading maps, because they generally know exactly where they are going).

It is all a bit crazy and ad hoc, a very expensive and haphazard way of solving the unique addressing problem. It is far from foolproof. It is probably the best they can do on the basis of such a crazy code design.

When you receive your postcode notification item, you will be given an opportunity to check your eircode online and if you are concerned about whether it is correct, you will have a little postcard you can send back to eircode to raise a query. This is what is passing for a 'double check' on the postman's work. Again it is pretty haphazard. In practice, the most vulnerable in the society will not benefit from the double-check.

larchill

So, it's the 13th now - @ least it's not a Friday!

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I understand that the plan is to put names on the letters to non-unique addresses.

The names will come from other sources that An Post has. I imagine that this will include the TV licence database. How accurate this database turns out to be will be interesting to see.

The actual point of the amendment was to protect this use of personal data against legal challenges or other types of challenge. It has nothing to do with protecting consumers (and indeed, it doesn't protect consumers).

The postmen/women will deliver this stuff on Saturdays, so there will be good overtime to be had and I would think that this will drive up the cost well beyond the original estimate for the 'dissemination', but there is no way to be sure until the bill comes in. It is impossible to know how many weeks it will take the postal person to do the work. The task is completely unique for each area, so each post person will really have to work at their own pace.

The postal personnel will have the benefit of a map showing the eircodes. I would be very cautious about this plan if I were them. Maps are tricky to read accurately if you aren't used to it (and postmen aren't used to reading maps, because they generally know exactly where they are going).

It is all a bit crazy and ad hoc, a very expensive and haphazard way of solving the unique addressing problem. It is far from foolproof. It is probably the best they can do on the basis of such a crazy code design.

When you receive your postcode notification item, you will be given an opportunity to check your eircode online and if you are concerned about whether it is correct, you will have a little postcard you can send back to eircode to raise a query. This is what is passing for a 'double check' on the postman's work. Again it is pretty haphazard. In practice, the most vulnerable in the society will not benefit from the double-check.

Sounds like it would have made more sense to have made the map public and provided a url for users to find their own code. This would have a better chance than trusting the postman to get every code to the correct address and would act as a good verification check.

ukoda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sounds like it would have made more sense to have made the map public and provided a url for users to find their own code. This would have a better chance than trusting the postman to get every code to the correct address and would act as a good verification check.

That's what they are doing too, you can go online from launch day and get your own code there and then without waiting for the letter, they've said this in a few interviews.

murpho999

_Puma_ wrote: »

I don't think you appreciate what I mean about a Pilot scheme, a trial fair enough where it is rolled out and limited access is provided to say An Post but what is happening now gives no option to refine , it is a pure take it or leave it situation,

The Leap card seems to have been a good example of a Pilot scheme. It is being rolled gradually and seems to have sustainable Organic growth to warrant a Nationwide roll-out.

How can you do a pilot on a postcode if it's only regional.

They trial it in Wexford for example. Resident rings Dublin and orders a product and says my post code is xxxxxxxx. They would no nothing about it .

Don't see what's to pilot anyhow, it will just work.

Also, I don't thiink that Leap was really piloted but more that different services came online at different times.

Sam Russell

The way you pilot it is you give 1,000 or so addresses (volunteers, civil servants, post office workers) their codes and send them letters. An Post turns on their software and they see how it works - how long it takes and how many errors.

Simples.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

The way you pilot it is you give 1,000 or so addresses (volunteers, civil servants, post office workers) their codes and send them letters. An Post turns on their software and they see how it works - how long it takes and how many errors.

Simples.

Maybe a bit too simples? What about all the other industries that will use it?

TheChizler

That's a functional test that An Post could probably just trial themselves, and probably have.

TheBustedFlush

_Puma_ wrote: »

Couldnt care less if the govenrment are worried or not, I think its pretty obvious the whole thing has been fudged from the get go it has deviated so much from the guidelines.

However if the FTAI believe that Eircode amounts to state aid for an Post do you really think that all the Courier companies under them are going to leverage Eircode in their delivery process, bearing in mind it will cost a lot of money for these companies to adapt to include Eircode. If they believe Eircode amounts to state aid I'm pretty sure they are not going to lose sleep if Eircode dies a death and will go on using the system in use now. All Eircode will be good for is filling out a form for revenue and we end up with another white elephant.

I think Nightlines position is very curious. If Eircode is not adopted by all the courier companies then there supposed support of it will become irrelevant. Eircode either gets adopted by the general public to such an extent that it is commercially viable or it does not. You wont see people all deciding to switch to Nightline because they use Eircode.

What would have made sense is if Eircode was trialled for period before the rollout. Still haven't read a reason why it wasn't.

The FTAI's position is equally curious because they have now publicly painted themselves into a corner with their action - on behalf of its members. And we don't know who exactly they represent within the delivery sector.

Nightline (not an FTAI member) are probably not the only delivery company who will use eircode. There's still companies such as Fastway, DPD, and other smaller delivery operations (not FTAI members either) who will use it because they see a benefit for their operations. I wonder what % of the domestic delivery market do An Post, Nightline, DPD and Fastway currently have?

Householders don't select delivery companies for online shopping - retailers do.

And if retailers start looking for eircodes from customers for their own reasons, then it's going to start appearing on packages, making it even more difficult for some delivery companies (FTAI members) to ignore. And if etailers suddenly see that only some delivery companies are using the eircode system that benefits their customers, then they may decide to shift their business to those eircode-using delivery companies and away from those who don't. And I suspect that there's a fair amount of state contracts out there that require national delivery operations and it may become a requirement over time that eircode is a required part of the delivery service, and so on and so on.

Domestic delivery business is still on a big growth curve in line with the upsurge in online spending.

I wonder how long FTAI's blackballing of eircode will last if its members start to lose business? Or will some of its members quietly start adopting it away from the public gaze in the coming months?

And what views do other representative haulier/logistics organisations have such as Irish Road Hauliers Assoc?

Taking a case to the EC where only a certain part of the sector feels disadvantaged, and other parts are happy to work with it is a risky strategy. They may succeed, or it may turn out to be the last sting of a dying wasp.

ukoda

Like I've said before, FTAI members aren't stupid and won't want to lose out, it's likely the individual companies will start to adopt it, if questioned, they will claim, oh we weren't one of the FTAI members who opposed it. FTAI might end up looking pretty stupid for mouthing off in such opposition to eircode.

a65b2cd

TheChizler wrote: »

That's a functional test that An Post could probably just trial themselves, and probably have.

Didn't An Post say last November that they had tested tens of thousand of items including items with correct and incorrect Eircodes!

ukoda wrote: »

Like I've said before, FTAI members aren't stupid and won't want to lose out, it's likely the individual companies will start to adopt it, if questioned, they will claim, oh we weren't one of the FTAI members who opposed it. FTAI might end up looking pretty stupid for mouthing off in such opposition to eircode.

I can understand FTAI's position. If they can just dump stuff in the village pub at the moment why would they want to incur the extra cost of having to deliver it! It will really pee them off if customers start saying you have my Eircode, why can't you find me?

ukoda

a65b2cd wrote: »

I can understand FTAI's position. If they can just dump stuff in the village pub at the moment why would they want to incur the extra cost of having to deliver it! It will really pee them off if customers start saying you have my Eircode, why can't you find me?

And that's exactly what will happen, and the complaint will go back to the retailer or be highlighted in reviews on their site and you can be sure the retailers will then put pressure on the courier to use eircode, or simply switch to one that does.

TheBustedFlush

plodder wrote: »

Announced by who though? I doubt the state would be endorsing any code that would compete with Eircode..

Announced by eircode; they are tasked with operating and managing the system and they already have a geocode system available to them so they can manage both - it would make the most sense.

plodder

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Announced by eircode; they are tasked with operating and managing the system and they already have a geocode system available to them so they can manage both - it would make the most sense.

Hmm. A geocode would cover the entire country, not just the locations that don't have Eircodes. So, the two codes would be competing. It's hard to see how that would be good for Eircode.

plodder

plodder wrote: »

Hmm. A geocode would cover the entire country, not just the locations that don't have Eircodes. So, the two codes would be competing. It's hard to see how that would be good for Eircode.

Surely, the two systems would have to be compatible.
Will the last four characters match between them?