National Postcodes to be introduced

Trouwe Ier

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The postmen/women will deliver this stuff on Saturdays, so there will be good overtime to be had and I would think that this will drive up the cost well beyond the original estimate for the 'dissemination', but there is no way to be sure until the bill comes in.

But would that not have been factored in to the overall project cost?

My understanding was that while the information would be available immediately after launch and that statutory bodies would be including the codes in their correspondence, the "green envelopes" would be sent out over a period of time.

The general postal system could absorb the extra loading over a week or so without any delays.

The general postal system could absorb the extra loading over a week or so without any delays

one letter per house, I should hope so.

Trouwe Ier

Deleted User wrote: »

one letter per house, I should hope so.

From my own very unscientific observations when working on my front garden in my suburban street, about 40-50% of the neighbouring houses receive post on any one 'pass' so if An Post can manage Christmas cards then they'll manage this.

I would accept though that there may need to be some sort of barcode scanning and that the process may be slower for les non-uniques.

plodder

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely, the two systems would have to be compatible.
Will the last four characters match between them?

They could be compatible in the sense that the codes themselves don't overlap, but every place that has an Eircode will also have a geocode. So, they will be competing then. ie. you have a choice of which one to use. You'll have delivery people saying things like "sorry we don't do Eircode, give me your geocode please"

ukoda

There's not going to be any other code announced!

Ericode is the national postcode that was announced, them launching anything else besides just eircode would be a huge conflict of interest.

Not going to happen at all guys.

plodder

plodder wrote: »

They could be compatible in the sense that the codes themselves don't overlap, but every place that has an Eircode will also have a geocode. So, they will be competing then. ie. you have a choice of which one to use. You'll have delivery people saying things like "sorry we don't do Eircode, give me your geocode please"

I've just looked up my gocode and if my eircode has LW or T4 as the fourth & fifth characters, then I'll know that they're compatible and use the same database.

The first three characters are probably the only ones that are different. The "human friendly" bit for an eircode but sequentially generated for the gocode.

Edit: interestingly, one of the neighbours houses is actually registered as having an address and a gocode linked to the house.
The address is of a format that few of the locals actually use, we have several different variations of addresses here, I assume that this will be the only official one that will be used in the future.

antoinolachtnai

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

But would that not have been factored in to the overall project cost?

My understanding was that while the information would be available immediately after launch and that statutory bodies would be including the codes in their correspondence, the "green envelopes" would be sent out over a period of time.

The general postal system could absorb the extra loading over a week or so without any delays.

The problem is not volume. The problem is accuracy.

Statutory bodies will not use eircodes in relation to non-unique addresses at the outset, because they have no way of coding them onto their existing addresses.

This is bespoke delivery. The cost is going to be a lot higher than for regular mail, which seems to have been what was anticipated in the original costing.

plodder

Deleted User wrote: »

I've just looked up my gocode and if my eircode has LW or T4 as the fourth & fifth characters, then I'll know that they're compatible and use the same database.

The first three characters are probably the only ones that are different. The "human friendly" bit for an eircode but sequentially generated for the gocode.

Edit: interestingly, one of the neighbours houses is actually registered as having an address and a gocode linked to the house.
The address is of a format that few of the locals actually use, we have several different variations of addresses here, I assume that this will be the only official one that will be used in the future.

What exactly do you mean by "compatible"? Do you mean that the codes (for the same place) would be the same? I don't think that would be possible.

Also, if gocode is based on a database then it's not a geocode.

plodder

plodder wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by "compatible"? Do you mean that the codes would be the same? I don't think that would be possible.

Also, if gocode is based on a database then it's not a geocode.

Only the "random" second part of the code, the bit that is location based in the eircode.

I will soon find out as I have found the go code of my house and I suspect that the last four characters will match the last four characters of the eircode.

plodder

Deleted User wrote: »

Only the "random" second part of the code, the bit that is location based in the eircode.

I will soon find out as I have found the go code of my house and I suspect that the last four characters will match the last four characters of the eircode.

But, the random part of the code is not location based. It requires a database to link each code to its location.

Whereas a geocode uses a mathematical formula to convert a location (its lat/long co-ordinates) to a string of letters and numbers, which is how a geocode is able to identify any possible location, but database based codes like Eircode are not.

recedite

Sam Russell wrote: »

The way you pilot it is you give 1,000 or so addresses (volunteers, civil servants, post office workers) their codes and send them letters. An Post turns on their software and they see how it works - how long it takes and how many errors.
Simples.

The letters would obviously be delivered in the normal way. The presence of the eircode would make no difference.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've just looked up my gocode and if my eircode has LW or T4 as the fourth & fifth characters, then I'll know that they're compatible and use the same database.

The first three characters are probably the only ones that are different. The "human friendly" bit for an eircode but sequentially generated for the gocode.

Edit: interestingly, one of the neighbours houses is actually registered as having an address and a gocode linked to the house.
The address is of a format that few of the locals actually use, we have several different variations of addresses here, I assume that this will be the only official one that will be used in the future.

Two completely different systems. A house with an eircode can also have a location code, whether loc8 or Go-Code or any other. There is no commonality between different systems in terms of prefix digits.

Most likely your neighbour entered that data into the Go-Code website himself, or maybe you are just looking at a house name on the google map on their website, which shows the names of houses as gathered by google.

recedite

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I understand that the plan is to put names on the letters to non-unique addresses.

The names will come from other sources that An Post has. I imagine that this will include the TV licence database. How accurate this database turns out to be will be interesting to see.

The actual point of the amendment was to protect this use of personal data against legal challenges or other types of challenge. It has nothing to do with protecting consumers (and indeed, it doesn't protect consumers).

The postmen/women will deliver this stuff on Saturdays, so there will be good overtime to be had and I would think that this will drive up the cost well beyond the original estimate for the 'dissemination', but there is no way to be sure until the bill comes in. It is impossible to know how many weeks it will take the postal person to do the work. The task is completely unique for each area, so each post person will really have to work at their own pace.

The postal personnel will have the benefit of a map showing the eircodes. I would be very cautious about this plan if I were them. Maps are tricky to read accurately if you aren't used to it (and postmen aren't used to reading maps, because they generally know exactly where they are going).

It is all a bit crazy and ad hoc, a very expensive and haphazard way of solving the unique addressing problem. It is far from foolproof. It is probably the best they can do on the basis of such a crazy code design.

When you receive your postcode notification item, you will be given an opportunity to check your eircode online and if you are concerned about whether it is correct, you will have a little postcard you can send back to eircode to raise a query. This is what is passing for a 'double check' on the postman's work. Again it is pretty haphazard. In practice, the most vulnerable in the society will not benefit from the double-check.

I wonder if this is the same google map that the guy from the Global Addresses Data Association had a sneak preview of?
For a "national" system, eircode seems to have a huge reliance on Google to give it any functionality. Postmen use google map to deliver the code. Householder use it to verify the code. Ambulance and courier use it to find the address. We may as well go ahead and make Google the official legal arbiter of all Irish addresses.
If they hand over that TV (media) license database now to Google, Google will take about 2 seconds to provide a list of the addresses that haven't paid. No need for any more TV adds showing vans with scary looking radars on the roof :pac:

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

I wonder if this is the same google map that the guy from the Global Addresses Data Association had a sneak preview of?
For a "national" system, eircode seems to have a huge reliance on Google to give it any functionality. Postmen use google map to deliver the code. Householder use it to verify the code. Ambulance and courier use it to find the address. We may as well go ahead and make Google the official legal arbiter of all Irish addresses.
If they hand over that TV (media) license database now to Google, Google will take about 2 seconds to provide a list of the addresses that haven't paid. No need for any more TV adds showing vans with scary looking radars on the roof :pac:

It's the people who are the ones that rely on Google, not the postcode, it can be overlaid on any map system, but the most popular is Google Maps, makes sense to make it compatible with what's used.

Or you could take the loc8 approach and make it only compatible with a technology that's dying fairly rapidly...stand alone sat nav devices.

plodder

So, does anyone know what/if any plans there are for navigation support with Eircode, ie satnavs, google, other third party apps? Will there be anything available on the launch day? If not, is anything in the pipeline?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

So, does anyone know what/if any plans there are for navigation support with Eircode, ie satnavs, google, other third party apps? Will there be anything available on the launch day? If not, is anything in the pipeline?

Nothing concrete, but when I enquired via email to eircode i was told in a reply that "we are working with digital mapping companies"

Considering they have PayPal on board already....I would imagine there's plenty more ready and waiting for launch

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Nothing concrete, but when I enquired via email to eircode i was told in a reply that "we are working with digital mapping companies"

Considering they have PayPal on board already....I would imagine there's plenty more ready and waiting for launch

There's a difference between a web site like Paypal using an API for address lookup and integrating it into navigation systems. There's quite a bit more work in the latter. If they don't have pretty firm plans for the latter at the very least, I don't think it will look very good at the launch.

It's the first thing Joe Public (who's interested) is going to ask - When will we actually be able to use it on a device? Or when will the couriers who deliver to me, be able to use it?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

There's a difference between a web site like Paypal using an API for address lookup and integrating it into navigation systems. There's quite a bit more work in the latter. If they don't have pretty firm plans for the latter at the very least, I don't think it will look very good at the launch.

It's the first thing Joe Public (who's interested) is going to ask - When will we actually be able to use it on a device? Or when will the couriers who deliver to me, be able to use it?

True, I'd be hopeful that Google will be onboard for their mapping at launch, or soon after.

If they approached Google, they wouldn't bat an eyelid shovelling out any amount of money to use it on their maps, Google love data, and they will be all over a code like this.

I wouldn't think it's too difficult to integrate ericode with Google maps, they just have an API to return the geo code and it's business as usual with their route planning etc (all already works on geo codes)

Sam Russell

A small point, but how are apartments going to identify the letterboxes - in Eircode order?

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

A small point, but how are apartments going to identify the letterboxes - in Eircode order?

Most apartment blocks I lived in have all had numbered mailboxes, which means they can just post out the code as a normal letter

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

Google love data, and they will be all over a code like this.

They sure do. They already know your tastes and interests, and when they match that data to your eircode, they can advertise you to local businesses, or vice versa.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

They sure do. They already know your tastes and interests, and when they match that data to your eircode, they can advertise you to local businesses, or vice versa.

They can do that now, I have a google account that has my name and address. I use google maps and allow it to use my location. Nothing new here, and personally, If I'm going to be targeted by ads (which is inevitable if I choose to use the internet) then I'd rather they were relevant to me than ads for tampons

And by the way, I'm all for supporting local business, bring it on!

Trouwe Ier

The anti-Eircode brigade have been tweeting like there's no tomorrow, today. There's even a tweet in Catalan!

As per a previous post, it seems to be looking like the 13th of July for the launch. However, https://www.eircode.ie/faqs still states:

"When will I know/get my Eircode?
In Spring 2015, all 2.2 million addresses in the country will be notified of their Eircode."

Their website management is extremely poor. Even if they were to state something like "current indications are that the launch date will be....." or whatever, that would be a huge improvement.

It's very disappointing to see a website for a technical project go derelict in the electronic sense: let alone one for such an important development.

plodder

recedite wrote: »

They sure do. They already know your tastes and interests, and when they match that data to your eircode, they can advertise you to local businesses, or vice versa.

google love data, but I'm not so sure they like to pay for it.. especially when the services using the data are provided by them for free.

Trouwe Ier

I read this via the politics.ie website.

It's a commentary by Charles Prescott, Executive Director, Global Address Data Association.

http://www.globaladdress.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2015/06/Eircode-Final-Rev-11.pdf

Some curious points about the unions in Dublin, and from my own perspective, he seems to have found out that I will be sharing my routing key with 85,999 other addresses. That's a seriously big cluster!

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

google love data, but I'm not so sure they like to pay for it.. especially when the services using the data are provided by them for free.

They paid for the geo directory a few years ago, eircode gives their service far more usability for the Irish market. Plus they have paid for numberous other data sources.

In terms of providing the service for free, that saying comes to mind: "if you're not paying for the product, you are the product"
Google make their money collecting data anyway they can, they have no issues paying for it

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

They paid for the geo directory a few years ago, eircode gives their service far more usability for the Irish market. Plus they have paid for numberous other data sources.

In terms of providing the service for free, that saying comes to mind: "if you're not paying for the product, you are the product"

There are costs obviously with providing any "free" service, but the fact is the equivalent data in other countries like UK and the US are free. So, I think I'll wait until I see it before I believe it.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

There are costs obviously with providing any "free" service, but the fact is the equivalent data in other countries like UK and the US are free. So, I think I'll wait until I see it before I believe it.

It costs Google a fortune to operate Maps for free, the cost of eircode would be tiny relative to the overall cost of the free product they provide.

They have a program to drive cars around Ireland and a vast collection of other countries every few years with very expensive camera / mapping equipment, they pay for people to walk around our airports with cameras on their backs, all for their free product, trust me, they wouldn't have any issue at all with paying for a code to identify every dwelling

irishgeo

ukoda wrote: »

It costs Google a fortune to operate Maps for free, the cost of eircode would be tiny relative to the overall cost of the free product they provide.

They have a program to drive cars around Ireland and a vast collection of other countries every few years with very expensive camera / mapping equipment, they pay for people to walk around our airports with cameras on their backs, all for their free product, trust me, they wouldn't have any issue at all with paying for a code to identify every dwelling

how much do they make back on advertising knowing what each person searches for in the world.

recedite

“Google’s first quarter revenue was $17.3 billion, up 12% year on year. Excluding the net impact of foreign currency headwinds, revenue grew a healthy 17% year on year,” said Patrick Pichette, CFO of Google. “We continue to see great momentum in our mobile advertising business and opportunities with brand advertisers.”

source

SpaceTime

They will buy in!

Google loves databases