National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

I've done a fair bit of travelling and never in my time have I seen a tourist map with postcodes on them, nor have I ever needed to work out my next destination using the countries postcode system

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

I've done a fair bit of travelling and never in my time have I seen a tourist map with postcodes on them, nor have I ever needed to work out my next destination using the countries postcode system

I'd be really surprised if you couldn't get a map of 90210

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

I'd be really surprised if you couldn't get a map of 90210

A physical one? Maybe but unlikely for the purposes of tourism, what you would get in Cali is a map of stars homes and where to get the tour bus from, I doubt it would have postcodes on it for you to work out your route based on them.

Bayberry

Maybe some people would find a map of smilies useful.

Trouwe Ier

It would appear that an interested party has been granted an audience somewhat late in the proceedings. One wonders if any of the committee members is aware of the recent tweeting, and indeed if there will be a lull in such tweeting after lunch on Tuesday.

There is no mention of the bill going back to the Dáil after the Seanad and no mention of it in the provisional listing for the following week. Again, with the repeated health warning that I am not at all an expert in parliamentary procedure, the only way I can see this becoming law on Monday, 6th July is if it clears the "hurdle" unscathed on Tuesday and is deemed to have been passed by both houses on Wednesday afternoon (five days before Monday).

However, things could go pear-shaped on Tuesday and events of an Hellenic nature could disrupt the parliamentary schedule over the next fortnight or so.

There may be trouble ahead. Indeed as I type this, "The Towering Inferno" is on television and there is a really foreboding dramatic orchestral score in the background.

From http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/thisweek/business-2015/document26.htm

Tuesday, 30th June, 2015

Committee Meetings

Transport and Communications (Joint) CR4, LH 2000 1 p.m. (T)
AGENDA: Certain aspects of the National Postcode System, Eircode (resumed) [Mr. Gary Delaney, Loc8]

Wednesday, 1st July, 2015

Seanad Éireann

3.00 p.m. (to 5.00 p.m.)

Communications Regulation (Postal Services)(Amendment) Bill 2015 – Committee, Report and Final Stages
(Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources)

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

I've done a fair bit of travelling and never in my time have I seen a tourist map with postcodes on them, nor have I ever needed to work out my next destination using the countries postcode system

Well I think you need to take into account the context of the "paper map" comment. They also said

we feel that a coherent self-explanatory geocode system that provided sequential functionality for route planning and location identification would have been far more desirable

So I'm sure everyone has seen those vertical and horizontal lines on OSI maps of Ireland which represent the National Grid. A system which has its uses and its afficionados, particularly among hillwalkers, but is not universally used or understood.

It surely does not require a huge stretch of the imagination to see that if the State had opted for a National Geocode system, it would be compatible with both paper maps and whatever satnavs/phones or other electronic devices people preferred to use.

For example the first 3 digits of a loc8 code could easily be represented as a 3.5Km x 3.5Km square on a paper map.
On a more detailed scale of local map, the first 6 digits relate to 100m x 100m grid, which should put this hypothetical tourist close enough to be able to see their hotel.

MillField

The sooner the better this is introduced. You have not experienced real pain until you're trying to explain to a UPS guy how to get to your house which shares an address with 50 other houses in the back arse of nowhere.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

On a more detailed scale of local map, the first 6 digits relate to 100m x 100m grid, which should put this hypothetical tourist close enough to be able to see their hotel.

Well if they had the hotels eircode it would bring them to the front door of the hotel, or do you think the tourists will have their paper maps out and start doing grid calculations to find the 100m x 100m box on the map their hotel might be in? What bizarre world are you living in. Tourists operate off of addresses, they give them to taxi drivers or they use them on google maps. If for any reason they use a paper map, it will be one of those lovely illustrated ones that have nice drawings of Dublin castle on them and a lovely monkey illustration on the zoo's location. It will not have grid references, it will have streets and landmarks.

If they get lost they will ask for directions to the bundling they want, if we lived in a world were a geo coding system was in operation it would be of no use in this situation, so let's say everyone was using loc8code, a lost tourist rocks up to a local and says I want to get to XYLOC8, oh well this is area is AU so where you want to go is North somewhere (because that's what a loc8code would tell us) so the local and the tourist knows it's North. That's useful isn't it? Well no, what the tourist actually wants is... tourist: can you tell me how to get to Dublin castle, local: yes go to the end of this street and take a left, then at the traffic lights turn right and it's straight ahead.

The ONLY way you get more out of a loc8 code is with a sat nav, but guess what, you need a sat nav to get directions out of any postcode.

SpaceTime

It looks like Loc8 are just going to be the ad hoc code provider as this thing has gone way, way past the point of no return now. Eircode is here to stay, flaws and all.

At this stage just roll the damn thing out and get on with it.

I think we need to implement rules for addressing though for all new build and probably where possible retrofit it to old build.

Like for example, all new housing developments should use block numbering type systems.

No more chaos!

Trouwe Ier

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think we need to implement rules for addressing though for all new build and probably where possible retrofit it to old build.


No more chaos!

Well, in LImerick.....

There are two 1970s cul-de-sacs of the Cratloe Road in the north-western extremity called "Willow Grove"; there is a 1990s housing estate of the same name, diagonally across the city off the Kilmallock Road.

There are two 1940s cul-de-sacs called "Elm Park" off the Ennis Road; there is a large housing estate of the same name, across the city in Castletroy.

1970s "College Avenue" is in council-built Moyross, 1970s "College Park" is in Corbally.

"Clareview" is a large (by any standard) 1960s private housing estate between the Ennis Road and Cratloe Road in the north-western suburbs, "Clareview Avenue" is at its nearest, about 900m away in Farranshone, Ditto for "Clareview Terrace" in Thomondgate, but it's also well across the river on the South Circular Road.

There's a "James Street" up near Colbert Station, there's a "James Street" down by John's Square.

There's 1990's "Springfield Avenue" in east Dooradoyle near the M20 and there's 1960's "Springfield Drive" in west Dooradoyle, c. 1.5 miles away.

.....and they're the ones I know about!

Certainly in recent decades, the Post Office and/or local authorities should have exercised some sort of regulation over naming as confusion reigns over the above examples.

I would imagine that the new post code system will help to eliminate at least some of the confusion so yes, roll it out!

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

Well if they had the hotels eircode it would bring them to the front door of the hotel, or do you think the tourists will have their paper maps out and start doing grid calculations to find the 100m x 100m box on the map their hotel might be in? What bizarre world are you living in.

Not quite, the eircode will only do that on an electronic device which is connected to internet.
The location code will work on that, but also on a standard type satnav, and also on a paper map.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Not quite, the eircode will only do that on an electronic device which is connected to internet.
The location code will work on that, but also on a standard type satnav, and also on a paper map.

Read the second half of my post.

ukoda

http://www.wcdp.ie/eircode-the-new-postcode-system-for-ireland


Little video of the letter coming through the door, if you look closely it says "occupant"

SPDUB

ukoda wrote: »

http://www.wcdp.ie/eircode-the-new-postcode-system-for-ireland


Little video of the letter coming through the door, if you look closely it says "occupant"

Couldn't get any of those to work but found they had put the signed version on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN3dtOJ1Z7M

Incidentally one of the related videos suggested is the recent primetime report

Trouwe Ier

Both links worked fine for me.

No mention of a date at all. Not the most expensive television ad ever produced: no faces other than the sign linguist, one camera, bland backing music and if there's a delay, they can change "summer" to "autumn.....winter....."

Any thoughts on July 6th?

There's many a slip between Seanad and Áras but perhaps we'll know more when the Seanad report is published on Wednesday evening.

dr.fuzzenstein

recedite wrote: »

Not quite, the eircode will only do that on an electronic device which is connected to internet.
The location code will work on that, but also on a standard type satnav, and also on a paper map.

Oh no! Well, that's Eircode fcuked then, wherever shall we get such a magical device? Such things are the stuff of fevered dreams of science fiction writers and will only come about once we mastered warp drive and even then, surely such a fantastical device shall forever be out of reach of anyone but the three richest kings in Europe.

BarryM

I saw a post on The Register that Capita are dumping staff from UK to South Africa & India because they are in financial trouble. Isn't Capita the owner of SWS who are managing the postcode data?

recedite

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Oh no! Well, that's Eircode fcuked then, wherever shall we get such a magical device? Such things are the stuff of fevered dreams of science fiction writers and will only come about once we mastered warp drive and even then, surely such a fantastical device shall forever be out of reach of anyone but the three richest kings in Europe.

You keep making the same joke and its getting a bit stale. Can't you see the point that a location code works with a smartphone and with traditional maps and sat-navs?

What % of the population are permanently "internet connected" as they walk around today? 50%? More? Less?

Would you care to give an estimate as to what year that % will reach 99%?

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

You keep making the same joke and its getting a bit stale. Can't you see the point that a location code works with a smartphone and with traditional maps and sat-navs?

What % of the population are permanently "internet connected" as they walk around today? 50%? More? Less?

Would you care to give an estimate as to what year that % will reach 99%?

89%. I previously posted that figure to debunk the "computer in pocket" argument, I backed it up with a source at the time, the figure refers to the % of the population who have a device capable of accessing the Internet "on the go" I.e. While out and about. And I'd say give it 5 years to get to 99% as it was 70% 4 years ago.

dr.fuzzenstein

recedite wrote: »

You keep making the same joke and its getting a bit stale. Can't you see the point that a location code works with a smartphone and with traditional maps and sat-navs?

What % of the population are permanently "internet connected" as they walk around today? 50%? More? Less?

Would you care to give an estimate as to what year that % will reach 99%?

Same as the argument that surely nobody would possibly have a smartphone.
And delivery people and emergency services should be expected to have one, unless it's Hairy Arsed Couriers operated by Mick from a shed with a 1994 Hi-ace van. He could possibly still have a Nokia from that time, because it fits in the hands free that's in the van.

recedite

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Same as the argument that surely nobody would possibly have a smartphone.

Nobody has said that except you. Its called a strawman argument.
So what year do you think 99% of us will be perpetually internet enabled?
Bearing in mind that this system is not supposed to be only for courier companies to use.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

89%. I previously posted that figure to debunk the "computer in pocket" argument, I backed it up with a source at the time, the figure refers to the % of the population who have a device capable of accessing the Internet "on the go" I.e. While out and about. And I'd say give it 5 years to get to 99% as it was 70% 4 years ago.

89% currently, it seems higher than I would have thought. A source would add credibility.

SpaceTime

I've seen a few figures 56% to about 65% depending on the survey are carrying smartphones in Ireland with iOS devices being significantly ahead in market share. That common in most English speaking markets oddly enough.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/gear/2015/03/18/ios-is-the-dominant-smartphone-operating-system-in-ireland

The 89% figure mentioned above probably includes "feature phones" with Internet access.

I'd say it's hard to buy a phone that doesn't have some form of Internet access in this market tbh

It's become next to impossible to buy a non smartphone at this stage too.

But basically most people already have smartphones and the trend would be that almost everyone will have one within a few years anyway. You'll have a small % who don't want them, mostly elderly people or children who are given dumb phones for emergency use because parents don't want them online.

recedite

Currently 56pc of the population carry smartphones and this is predicted to rise to 69pc of the population by 2018, according to the Millennial Media research.

That seems reasonable alright. Still a few years to go before we reach % figures in the 90's.

SpaceTime

recedite wrote: »

That seems reasonable alright. Still a few years to go before we reach % figures in the 90's.

On billpay those figures are already in the 90s due to subsidised upgrades.

The barrier is that decent smartphones are still expensive and very cheap ones tend to poor screens and sluggish hardware.

You'll see the prices drop as more Chinese brands enter and swallow up the lower end of the prepay market.

A high end smartphone will still set you back €600 without subsidy and beyond that for very high end.

moyners

The Joint Committee on Transport and Communications will meet on Tuesday, 30 June at 1.00 p.m., with Mr Gary Delaney of Loc8Code.

Joint Committee on Transport and Communications today

recedite

SpaceTime wrote: »

On billpay those figures are already in the 90s due to subsidised upgrades.

It does say

Currently 56pc of the population carry smartphones

Maybe you mean to include people having basic phones that could in theory connect to a (very expensive) internet, but the owner has no intention of doing so?
I don't think you could say these people will be able to use an eircode to find an address. For one thing, the phone might not have GPS capability. Even if it did, these people won't be interested in trying to get it all working on a phone that is not designed to be a smartphone.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

89% currently, it seems higher than I would have thought. A source would add credibility.

I don't have time to search for it now, but I will later, i posted it before. It's a target mcconnells research that was done in jan 2015, and like I mentioned it covers any device capable of mobile internet access

SpaceTime

recedite wrote: »

It does sayMaybe you mean to include people having basic phones that could in theory connect to a (very expensive) internet, but the owner has no intention of doing so?
I don't think you could say these people will be able to use an eircode to find an address. For one thing, the phone might not have GPS capability. Even if it did, these people won't be interested in trying to get it all working on a phone that is not designed to be a smartphone.

Mobile internet is not very expensive unless you're really, really bad at shopping around.

It was expensive 5+ years ago and it continues to be expensive in some continental countries like Belgium but in Ireland it's really not a massive add on and it's actually bundled with top ups on most of the prepay plans that I've seen.

It's unusual to only have calls and texts at this stage.

I'm not really sure that you can do all that much for tech laggards but we can't keep setting public policy based on the absolutely lowest common denominator for choice of tech.

We've a very very broken addressing system and whether you're using eircode or Loc8 you're going to need some kind of device with an app.

I really think the few kb of data a lookup on eircode will need is hardly a big deal to very many people.

I do think we need a policy on addressing and to gradually correct the non unique addressing and use of house names issues.

TheChizler

SpaceTime wrote: »

I've seen a few figures 56% to about 65% depending on the survey are carrying smartphones in Ireland with iOS devices being significantly ahead in market share. That common in most English speaking markets oddly enough.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/gear/2015/03/18/ios-is-the-dominant-smartphone-operating-system-in-ireland

The 89% figure mentioned above probably includes "feature phones" with Internet access.

I'd say it's hard to buy a phone that doesn't have some form of Internet access in this market tbh

It's become next to impossible to buy a non smartphone at this stage too.

But basically most people already have smartphones and the trend would be that almost everyone will have one within a few years anyway. You'll have a small % who don't want them, mostly elderly people or children who are given dumb phones for emergency use because parents don't want them online.

Then compare that to the percentage of people who carry or even possess up to date street maps.