Motorway Redesignation sparks huge complaints

Bards

Deleted User wrote: »

YAWN!

The Athlone bypass/relief road is OK as it is, it prevents the town from completely jamming up! But, it just needs protection from developers trying to add additional junctions to it for their pet developments.

...and the best way to do this is to slap a Motorway order on it, albeit with a lower limit of 100 KM/h just like the M50

otherwise we will have to trust the Council to block every single planning application that comes its way for access onto the bypass, and hope ABP upholds the same decision.

Same holds true for other HQDC's around the country.

D'Peoples Voice

mysterious wrote: »

Because it's the shannon crossing point. The council can also object to development onto the relief road.

Can travellers still park up on the side of the Athlone bypass as it is?

Amtmann

I'm getting VERY sick of waiting for the minister to make his decision.

I think the following redesignations will go ahead without too much difficulty:

N20/N21
N18
N8
N7/N20
Two-thirds of the N6 proposals
N4
N3

I don't know anything at all about the N2. I see the N11 and the N6 Athlone Bypass as being problems because of local opposition. Absolutely no reason why the N20/21, N7, N8, N18 and most of the N6 can't be approved.

D.L.R.

Furet wrote: »

I'm getting VERY sick of waiting for the minister to make his decision.

I think the following redesignations will go ahead without too much difficulty:

N20/N21
N18
N8
N7/N20
Two-thirds of the N6 proposals
N4
N3

I don't know anything at all about the N2. I see the N11 and the N6 Athlone Bypass as being problems because of local opposition. Absolutely no reason why the N20/21, N7, N8, N18 and most of the N6 can't be approved.

Ashbourne BP is a true HQDC, but to be honest I can't understand why redesignation stops short of the M50 junction. There are alt routes so whats the problem?

The lack of M-M junctions on the M50 is a bit disappointing. Its a natural starting point for the country's motorways, you would think. NRA are not great at tying things up it has to be said.

People are complaining a lot here about this possible "Athlone gap". What about the major gaps around Dublin?

BluntGuy

D.L.R. wrote: »

Ashbourne BP is a true HQDC, but to be honest I can't understand why redesignation stops short of the M50 junction. There are alt routes so whats the problem?

The lack of M-M junctions on the M50 is a bit disappointing. Its a natural starting point for the country's motorways, you would think. NRA are not great at tying things up it has to be said.

People are complaining a lot here about this possible "Athlone gap". What about the major gaps around Dublin?

The major gaps around Dublin on the N7 and N4 would be fixed were it not for the direct accesses and alternative route issues in places. I have no doubt that in the future, the NRA will look to solve these issues.

The N6 Athlone Bypass however, has no such issues. It meets the minimum design specification for a motorway and there is an alternative route available. So why leave an unnecessary gap in the network, when it makes sense from a safety and consistency perspective to redesignate it?

G_R

Bards wrote: »

...and the best way to do this is to slap a Motorway order on it, albeit with a lower limit of 100 KM/h just like the M50

otherwise we will have to trust the Council to block every single planning application that comes its way for access onto the bypass, and hope ABP upholds the same decision.

Same holds true for other HQDC's around the country.

thank you. that is my point exactly, you just said it a lot less words ha

BluntGuy wrote: »

The N6 Athlone Bypass however, has no such issues. It meets the minimum design specification for a motorway and there is an alternative route available. So why leave an unnecessary gap in the network, when it makes sense from a safety and consistency perspective to redesignate it?

again, that was my point - not to have a nice fancy map with loads of blue lines like mysterious seems to think.

L1011

D.L.R. wrote: »

Ashbourne BP is a true HQDC, but to be honest I can't understand why redesignation stops short of the M50 junction. There are alt routes so whats the problem?

There is no direct alternate route for the first few hundred metres northbound.

icdg

D.L.R. wrote: »

Ashbourne BP is a true HQDC, but to be honest I can't understand why redesignation stops short of the M50 junction. There are alt routes so whats the problem?

The problem is the fact that access to the old N2 was severed at the M50 junction when the HQDC was built. To allow access, a rather dodgey off-slip was placed between J1 & J2. Unfortunately, this is enough to stop the road being declared a motorway for the J1-J2 section. This is an alternative route via the R104, R122, and then doubling back the old N2, but its a bit of a round trip.

The lack of M-M junctions on the M50 is a bit disappointing. Its a natural starting point for the country's motorways, you would think. NRA are not great at tying things up it has to be said.

Most of the sections between the M50 and the start of the interurban motorways were built before the NRA existed. In the case of the N3, N4, and N7, parts of the old road were susumed in places. There are private acccesses on all three roads and possible the worst example is on the N4, where there is an entire housing estate (Kew Park) that can only be accessed from the dual carriageway.

The N4 & N7 upgrade schemes have eliminated most of the problems and are I think the best we'll get. Bringing them up to full motorway standard would be not worth it from a cost-benefit point of view (would mean reinstating the old road - how do you do that, for instance, with some of the N4 gaps, eg. the King's Hospital-Palmerston village gap at the M50?).

People are complaining a lot here about this possible "Athlone gap". What about the major gaps around Dublin?

I'm staying out of the Athlone argument, its become too heated. But for those who really want the design specifications for Irish roads, the Design Manual for Roads and Bridges is here:

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/RoadDesignConstruction/DesignManualforRoadsBridgesJan2009/

D.L.R.

MYOB wrote: »

There is no direct alternate route for the first few hundred metres northbound.

Will the N2 junction upgrade eliminate this problem?

L1011

D.L.R. wrote: »

Will the N2 junction upgrade eliminate this problem?

Almost sure it won't. Theres an ESB substation in the way.

Tech3

Furet wrote: »

I'm getting VERY sick of waiting for the minister to make his decision.

.

Agreed its taking way too long now, the complaints should have been reviewed in January.

I think the following redesignations will go ahead without too much difficulty:

N20/N21
N18
N8
N7/N20
Two-thirds of the N6 proposals
N4
N3

I don't know anything at all about the N2. I see the N11 and the N6 Athlone Bypass as being problems because of local opposition. Absolutely no reason why the N20/21, N7, N8, N18 and most of the N6 can't be approved.

They are the only routes that I would be aware of that would make redesignation. The N11 might not make it also due to having a gap of single carriageway at the end of a motorway might be dangerous to redesignate it.

The Athlone bypass should redesignated for deffo to prevent a bottleneck in the middle of one of our interurbans. If we saw developments here it would be a disaster.

D.L.R.

MYOB wrote: »

Almost sure it won't. Theres an ESB substation in the way.

Then wouldn't you agree that the M50 upgrade is a missed opportunity to sort these loose ends out? If its not economical as part of a larger upgrade, then when is it?

The Word Is Bor

On a slightly related noted;

Irish Times Motors

Call for tractor restrictions

TIM O'BRIEN

THE ROAD Safety Authority (RSA) has submitted proposals to the Department of Transport to ban agricultural vehicles from motorways and restrict their use in the haulage industry.

The proposals were drafted in response to what it called an increasing number of serious collisions involving agricultural vehicles, and follow lobbying by the road haulage industry concerning the number and quality of tractors and trailers used on construction sites and quarries.

The Irish Times understands the document contains recommendations for hard-hitting regulation of tractor and especially trailer use on public roads.

Much of what the RSA recommends was detailed by chief executive Noel Brett in a recent submission to the Oireachtas Committee on Transport. Mr Brett said there were “several incidents involving very old tractors in poor condition in the last quarter of [last] year.”

In relation to competition with licensed hauliers he said: “We cannot have tractors involved in illegal haulage. . . We must protect the legitimate haulage industry.”

But he added: “ Ireland is a rural country and people have the right to earn a living. . . Whatever we come up with must allow [farmers] to make a living outside the harvest season. . . I am aware of the complexity of the situation.”

Farmer Liam Mounsey of Co Kilkenny who is campaigning against the changes described the proposals as “idiotic”.

Dáil Deputy Phil Hogan said he would be raising the issue in coming days “to ask the minister to bring clarity and common sense” to the issue.

mysterious

I don't think any local traffic around Athlone should be forced to use the town centre bridge to get to their route, when for the last 19 years the bypass provided thier needs of transporting.

It is not acceptable for people behaving like road nerds and say oh because we want a blue road from Dublin to Galway and we want restrictions the whole way, meaning to hell with the existing bypasses that have been in place for nearly 20 years for all local modes of traffic.

I'm up for safer restrictions, but the fact that Athlone is a multi purpose bypass and not purely for the N6, it doesn't mean that the road should carry only N6 traffic all of a sudden. I'm not all pro farmer or that either. But I don't think it's fair for all the local farmers in the area wanting to from Roscommon to Westhmeath be told now they can't use the bypass to get accross the Shannon.

The existing bridge in Athlone can't cope at present, and there is a need for another bridge. The Athlone bypass should not be made motorway for this idiotic I want my motorway nonsense.

It is absaloutely absurd to think that there is a good reason to change this to a motorway.

You have 90% of the route Motorway leave it be. The importance does swing to the idea that the Athlone bypass be allowed to provide all traffic as it currently does.

I'm up for cyclists and pedestrians been banned. But then again this was never a problem, and there is no reason for pedestrians to walk on this road. Don't anyone say this is a problem cus it isn't, and don't anyone say this is an excuse to say a reason for it becoming a motorway now. It's balony.

The second restriction I'm up for, is not having developments been built off it. I again don't think this is an issue. This is another excuse for the I want my motorway argument again. In 19 years it was never a problem. I can find a gazillion of other bypasses that never had a problem either. Like Roscrea, Cashel, Newmarket on Fergus, Rathekeale, Nenagh, Bray, Timone moone bypass are just off the top of my head, none of these have motorway restrictions, and yet none of them had sprawling developments off any of them.

I can name more:p
But again I'm ok with two restrictions been put on the Athlone bypass, to make it "safer" which will not make any difference regardless. Is removing

• Cyclist's,
• pedestrians
• offside developments.

Still called the Athlone relief/bypass. Not I love my M6 no matter what they call it.:D

invincibleirish

I'm ignorant of the local geography, where is the closest crossing across the Shannon outside of Athlone town & the N6?

invincibleirish

invincibleirish wrote: »

I'm ignorant of the local geography, where is the closest crossing across the Shannon outside of Athlone town & the N6?

The two crossing points are circled!

mysterious

With the likes of two other secondary roads multi plexing at this bypass, it is not appropriate to put the restrictions on here whatsoever. That bridge should be allowed for all types of traffic, except people and cyclists. But then again I have to point out cyclists and pedestrians wouldn't use this bypass.

SeanW

mysterious wrote: »

With the likes of two other secondary roads multi plexing at this bypass, it is not appropriate to put the restrictions on here whatsoever. That bridge should be allowed for all types of traffic, except people and cyclists. But then again I have to point out cyclists and pedestrians wouldn't use this bypass.

Let's go through this one more time.

There is no way to protect a dual carriageway from inappropriate development other than to redesignate it motorway. If you reread the first post you will know that a developer and his buddy on the local council have active plans to build alongside the DC.

And we know (from U.K. standards at least) that even a single carriageway can be redesignated "motorway" and we have at least one M regulated single carriageway under "no escape" rules, so all this talk about 100kph speed limits or whatever the hell you're on about, is B.S.

The dual carriageway is NOT a local road - it is the National Primary road, N6 Athlone Bypass. The fact that it has local use is a secondary happenstance. Most of this local use BTW will not be impaired as no fully licensed motorists other than mopeds and tractors (who are only a hazard to regular traffic at the best of times) will be removed and no Grade Separated Junction is slated for closure.

Finally, no important roads "Multiplex" with the N6 Bypass. The roads in question, N55, N61, N62 all start/end there. It is common for important roads to start and end at junctions with motorways. There is however the N52 which really does multiplex with the M6 motorway betwenn Kilbeggan and Tyrellspass.

If you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones, and at this point you're just screaming "I WANT MY GREEN ROAD and damn the consequences."

BluntGuy

mysterious wrote: »

It is absaloutely absurd to think that there is a good reason to change this to a motorway.

Y'know, I would've thought with 14 pages of posts outlining exactly why it's a good idea it wasn't that absurd...

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

But again I'm ok with two restrictions been put on the Athlone bypass, to make it "safer" which will not make any difference regardless. Is removing

• Cyclist's,
• pedestrians
• offside developments.

Still called the Athlone relief/bypass. Not I love my M6 no matter what they call it.:D

None of these restrictions as possible without making it a motorway

At this stage its become quite clear you're either a troll or have a vested interest in keeping it D2AP.

mysterious

SeanW wrote: »

Let's go through this one more time.

There is no way to protect a dual carriageway from inappropriate development other than to redesignate it motorway. If you reread the first post you will know that a developer and his buddy on the local council have active plans to build alongside the DC.

Show me exactly what he want's to build please. I want to see exactly, cus I'm sensing exaggeration on your part.

, so all this talk about 100kph speed limits or whatever the hell you're on about, is B.S.

Maybe your not reading properly. not my issue you choose what you want to read.

The dual carriageway is NOT a local road - it is the National Primary road, N6 Athlone Bypass. The fact that it has local use is a secondary happenstance.

I'm sorry to burst the ballon but the Athlone bypass has always been a multi purpose road.

• One for a second crossing over the Shannon
• Relief road through Athlone town
• Removing local, National and secondary traffic from the town

Get off it's only for the N6, your very wrong on this statement.

Most of this local use BTW will not be impaired as no fully licensed motorists other than mopeds and tractors (who are only a hazard to regular traffic at the best of times) will be removed and no Grade Separated Junction is slated for closure.

It is not acceptable for agricultural traffic to detour through Athlone just for the sake of crossing the Shannon.

That is a point made and taken.
Scream and dance all you like after it, there is no warrany for your argument. Don't give me becuase it's safer or what not, That is a load of balony.

Finally, no important roads "Multiplex" with the N6 Bypass. The roads in question, N55, N61, N62 all start/end there. It is common for important roads to start and end at junctions with motorways. There is however the N52 which really does multiplex with the M6 motorway betwenn Kilbeggan and Tyrellspass.

Again your wrong.
N55, N61 and N80 all use it to cross the Shannon. Athlone again I have to point out is not a destination just between Dublin and Galway, it is focal point of many roads to cross over the Shannon.

Please don't babble.

If you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones, and at this point you're just screaming "I WANT MY GREEN ROAD and damn the consequences."

No, i'm saying it should not be a motorway for the sake of N6 users, this is a bypass of Athlone and not just for one needs of Galway to Dublin traffic.

I'm the only one pointing out the consquences you haven't given any but stopping development on it. I'm all up for development. And yes they can put restrictions on it. Ever hear of special roads, expressways?

:rolleyes:

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

Again your wrong.
N55, N61 and N80 all use it to cross the Shannon. Athlone again I have to point out is not a destination just between Dublin and Galway, it is focal point of many roads to cross over the Shannon.

Please don't babble.

the N80 ends East of the Shannon. Doesn't cross it. The N55 starts off the N6 East of the Shannon. The N61 starts off the N6 West of the Shannon.

Not one of these roads crosses the Shannon.

Please don't lie.

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

the N80 ends East of the Shannon. Doesn't cross it. The N55 starts off the N6 East of the Shannon. The N61 starts off the N6 West of the Shannon.

Not one of these roads crosses the Shannon.

Please don't lie.

I'm not lieing.
I just understand how roads work, do you?

So if I was lieing and be as short sighted as you in this stance.

Then the all traffic from the N55, N61 and N80 die once they hit Athlone, Like practically just dissapear off the face of the earth.

Nooooooooooooo MYOB, this doesn't happen and I'm not lieing.
This is the reason why Athlone was bypassed years ago. So many roads converge here because it's a crossing point of the Shannon with many roads converging at this point. This is why many bridging cities have lots of roads joining. Another example of my case, People from Tullamore going to Cavan would use the bypass, People from the south would accesss the AThlone bypass to go North and cross over the Shannon. This is why the road was built north of the town and not to the south of it and only server the N6

You can all sit here and dance around this fact, the bypass was not built purely for the N6 relief.:P It was not built as a motorway either. it was not built to cater only for long distance traffic either.

it was a second crossing point of the Shannon that gave relief to the existing town bridge and network of radial roads.

So YES you do have to take this into consideration, but your all so focused on this motorway only agenda:rolleyes:

L1011

The roads terminate on the N6; hence it is patently wrong to claim they cross the river - only the N6 crosses the river. No roads multiplex on it at that location.

Anyway, the existance of these roads is only be thrown in here by you to muddy the waters - they will contribute tens of vehicles a day or less that cannot use the bypass but currently do.

I don't have a "motorway only agenda". This is your sole argument left at this stage and to be honest, its pathetic. I take it you've noticed nobody without a vested interest agrees with you?

mysterious

Local traffic rises rapidly on the N6 east of Balinasloe and west of Moate in this instance, giving the meaning that this N6 at this point is purely for all modes of traffic crossing this bridging point of Athlone.

Traffic west of Ballnasloe dies down to 9,000 a day. Yet approaching AThlone it rises to 30,000. This is because the bypass is a bridging point of all major roads.

3/4 of the traffic that use the bypass is not N6 traffic at all:p

L1011

And what % of it is non-motorway grade traffic? Incalculably low?

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

The roads terminate on the N6; hence it is patently wrong to claim they cross the river - only the N6 crosses the river. No roads multiplex on it at that location.

Well then you can bascially say the N8 ends In Porlaoise so Cork don't use the M7. This is exactly how pathetic your argument is. The roads converging the town all have to use the Bridge regardless.

Stop making silly notions that a road ends and their use is also terminated because the road suddenly changes number..
Are you familar with transport at all. Obviously not. Athlone is a crossing point of all major roads. To get around this part of the country.

Anyway, the existance of these roads is only be thrown in here by you to muddy the waters - they will contribute tens of vehicles a day or less that cannot use the bypass but currently do.

What are you talking about, since you don't really know what your even talking about, I doubt this is even a valid point at all.

I don't have a "motorway only agenda". This is your sole argument left at this stage and to be honest, its pathetic. I take it you've noticed nobody without a vested interest agrees with you?

Really? You've dissmissed some very basic facts.

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

And what % of it is non-motorway grade traffic? Incalculably low?

Why does it have to be motorway?

SeanW

mysterious wrote: »

Show me exactly what he want's to build please. I want to see exactly, cus I'm sensing exaggeration on your part.

Re read the first post.

The designation also helps prevent inappropriate developments alongside the motorways.

Once classified as a motorway, access to the route is restricted to separated junctions and this also contributes to motorways being the safest routes in the State.
...
In the case of the N6 near Athlone, for example, local Fine Gael councillor John Naughten said he “would have concerns about the implications for development on the west side of Athlone – particularly on the SO1 site in Bogganfin – as access would be prohibited if the road is reclassified as motorway”.

That alone is reason enough to redesignate

I'm sorry to burst the ballon but the Athlone bypass has always been a multi purpose road ... Get off it's only for the N6, your very wrong on this statement.

Then you obviously don't know what a National Primary Road is. Don't worry you're in good company, many local authority "planners" don't either.

Again your wrong.
N55, N61 and N80 all use it to cross the Shannon. Athlone again I have to point out is not a destination just between Dublin and Galway, it is focal point of many roads to cross over the Shannon.

Wrong, and wrong, and wrong again. Athlone is a large town (only prevented from becoming a City by it's lack of its own hospital) has a large residential, shopping sector as well as an Institute of Technology. I don't doubt that it has a significant hinterland of its own. I used the N55 daily for 4 years - it ends on the dual carriageway and is not co-signed across the Shannon - unlike the N52 is over the M6 in Southeastern Westmeath. The roads are not full of moped riders and tractors travelling from Edgeworthstown to Galway.

No, i'm saying it should not be a motorway for the sake of N6 users, this is a bypass of Athlone and not just for one needs of Galway to Dublin traffic.

Again, look up "National Primary Road"

I'm the only one pointing out the consquences you haven't given any but stopping development on it. I'm all up for development. And yes they can put restrictions on it. Ever hear of special roads, expressways?

Neither term has any relevance in Irish law AFAIK. Expressway in particular I recognise as being an American term.

mysterious wrote: »

Then the all traffic from the N55, N61 and N80 die once they hit Athlone, Like practically just dissapear off the face of the earth.

Athlone is a significant destination in it's own right. These roads end at the dual carriageway.

Please don't babble.

Pot, kettle, black.

Maybe your not reading properly. not my issue you choose what you want to read.

See above.

Why does it have to be motorway?

Why does it have to be dual carriageway only? Other than "I WANT MY GREEN DUAL CARRIAGEWAY"

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

Why does it have to be motorway?

There are 15 pages explaining why in detail, go read them without letting the blue, erm, red mist descend and ranting about blue roads.


Anyway, you claim that three national secondary roads use this bridge to cross the Shannon - does this not just provide even more evidence of why it needs to be restricted to prevent slow/dangerous vehicles?