Motorway Redesignation sparks huge complaints

darkman2

Motorway classifications spark objections


REDESIGNATION to motorway status of more than 230km of high-quality dual carriageways on 10 key routes across the State – first announced three years ago – has run into opposition from developers, farmers and local politicians, it has emerged.

The proposed changes, which were announced at the opening of the Ashbourne bypass in May 2006, involve upgrading the mainly new dual carriageways to motorway status, with a consequent increase in speed limits from 100km/h to 120km/h.

Other changes, aside from the speed limit, are that learner drivers, vehicles with a speed of less than 50km/h – which includes many agricultural vehicles – and motorcycles of less than 50cc are barred from using motorways.

The designation also helps prevent inappropriate developments alongside the motorways.

Once classified as a motorway, access to the route is restricted to separated junctions and this also contributes to motorways being the safest routes in the State.

But while Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey redesignated a first tranche of 10 sections of dual carriageway in 2008, The Irish Times understands that the second tranche has been beset by objections.

In the case of the N6 near Athlone, for example, local Fine Gael councillor John Naughten said he “would have concerns about the implications for development on the west side of Athlone – particularly on the SO1 site in Bogganfin – as access would be prohibited if the road is reclassified as motorway”.

The councillor also raised the issues of access by learner drivers and farmers. Similar submissions have been made by others, including property developers, landowners and local authorities across the roads network.

This week the Department confirmed that “a considerable number of submissions were received with regard to the various local authorities and these are currently being examined by officials in the Department”.

A spokeswoman maintained that “the original timeframe for the redesignation of the second tranche of motorways to come into effect was summer 2009”.

She stated: “This timetable will be kept”.

Certification of the safety and suitability of the second tranche was submitted to Mr Dempsey in April last year, and a one-month period of public consultation was subsequently carried out.

The roads in question are: one section of the N2; two sections of the N3; one section of the N4; three sections of the N6 which together amount to almost 80km; two sections of the N7/N20; two sections of the N8; three sections of the N11; some 70km of the N18 and a section of the N20/21.

Irish Times

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Typical bullsh*t gombeenism from culchies - expected nothing else tbh - that is the way they are down there.

mysterious

darkman2 wrote: »

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Typical bullsh*t gombeenism from culchies - expected nothing else tbh - that is the way they are down there.

Well that comment is not entirely fair darkman.
None of these routes were given motorway orders and none of them were planned as motorways, so farmers were allowed to use these HQDC.

I do agree though the MIUs should be motorwayed.
I do NOT agree that existing DCs such as the Atlone bypass and the majority of the N11 be changed to motorway at all. The sake of changing them into blue signed roads is majorly unjusitifed. These sections have been DC for the last 15 years with local traffic using them. You can't expect all local traffic, farmers and learner drivers to feck off them.

Also in case of the N7 near me, The farmers objected to the M7 way back 7 years ago, when it was going to be the first motorway outside leinster at the time. They objected to it since the NRA would not build many underbridges for farmer access onto their lands. So the Nra opted for high quality DC instead. This route became a HQDC instead. Now the reclassifcations are going through again.

So it's not a matter of local gobeenism, it's partially the NRA's fault on this too.

I think it's madness that every DC in the country is asking for blue signs.

Zoney

It's quite unsafe to have these routes as anything other than motorway, and the existing older DC sections need brushed up to scratch too and reclassified due to the safety problems in having motorway traffic pour onto them without them being motorway themselves.

Perhaps it would have been better to just have these roads as motorway from the beginning, but one can hardly blame the authorities for taking the approach they had to, to avoid objections holding up the road building entirely (rather than merely affect reclassification).

It's all very well the lack of access underbridges for farmers - but is the suggestion really that it is at all sane or feasible for farmers to access fields off the side of even HQDCs using a farm gate?

mysterious - I think it's madness that anyone other than the directly affected parties is objecting to the reclassifications. I don't agree with darkman2's comments - typical inability to see where the affected parties are coming from. I may be outright opposed to the objectors, but I know full well I would probably be among them if I was an affected party.

loyatemu

its nothing to do with blue signs, or even speed limits. Its to do with safety and preventing inappopriate development.

Most of the recently built dual-carriageways are virtually motorway standard - its madness to have high-speed traffic mingling with tractors, cyclists, pedestrians etc. It also crazy to spend 10s of millions on a road thats designed to be fast and safe and then have some local landowner build a housing-estate or hotel with access directly onto the new road.

BrianD

It makes no differebce if the route is N or M, it is extremely difficult to get any new access onto a dual carriage, especially one that has been recently built. I would have thought that most of these new carriageways would have virtually no agricultural access at all. Obviously this is not the case of the N7, for example, which was an upgrade of an old route.

In the case of Athlone, if there is an area designated for development then a proper junction can be built to accomodate it. He hardly expects a set of traffic lights or a round about on a m-way to accomodate an industrial estate?

There is always an alternative route for the farmers and L drivers to use.

veryangryman

BrianD wrote: »

There is always an alternative route for the farmers and L drivers to use.

In Athlone, the only alternative is going through town via the Shannon Bridge. Tractors are not popular in town centre

If money were plentiful, a southern bypass with new bridge over shannon would be perfect, so the existing road could be used by local traffic.

But this is not goinna happen anytime soon, so i guess that those zooming past Athlone just need to slow doen 20KMPH or so for the 5 minute spell. *

* Once you ignore the fact that some idiot put the bridge down to one lane and also the one lane road to Tuam Exit leading into a stop-go system:mad:. Roll on the finished road!

Thoie

The learner driver excuse is ridiculous, as all learners should be accompanied by an experienced driver anyway. Years ago, myself and a law-abiding learner friend used travel between Dublin and Cork from time to time. In the places where avoiding the motorway would be inconvenient, we simply switched drivers at the nearest off road area (petrol station, carpark, whatever) before and afterwards so that I was the one driving on the motorway.

I think farmers are about the only ones with a valid point. If access to their land requires travelling along a current dual carriageway, then the NRA should make alternative arrangements for them before making the switch.

Cookie_Monster

darkman2 wrote: »

Typical bullsh*t gombeenism from culchies - expected nothing else tbh - that is the way they are down there.

+1:D

mysterious wrote: »

I do NOT agree that existing DCs such as the Atlone bypass and the majority of the N11 be changed to motorway at all. The sake of changing them into blue signed roads is majorly unjusitifed. These sections have been DC for the last 15 years with local traffic using them. You can't expect all local traffic, farmers and learner drivers to feck off them.

The entire N11 south of Loughlinstwon should have been motorway a long long time ago and there is no excuse not to upgrade it. It's supposed to be a designnated European route FFS. and of course you can expect local traffic, farmer and learners to feck off them, there are plenty of "normal" roads there including the old n11 for the most part. They've known this has been coming for years, if not decades.

loyatemu wrote: »

Its to do with safety and preventing inappopriate development.

Most of the recently built dual-carriageways are virtually motorway standard - its madness to have high-speed traffic mingling with tractors, cyclists, pedestrians etc. It also crazy to spend 10s of millions on a road thats designed to be fast and safe and then have some local landowner build a housing-estate or hotel with access directly onto the new road.

I was going to continue on from this but having read it again it covers exactly what I was going to say:)

murphaph

mysterious wrote: »

I do NOT agree that existing DCs such as the Atlone bypass and the majority of the N11 be changed to motorway at all.

It makes it clear to visitors (and potential investors) unfamiliar with the area that this road is of motorway/freeway/Autobahn standard. It's a good idea to get traffic to use a route to have it clear on maps that it is of sufficient standard. The UK has issues of under-use of HQDC A roads because foreigners don't see a blue line on a map.

mysterious wrote: »

These sections have been DC for the last 15 years with local traffic using them. You can't expect all local traffic, farmers and learner drivers to feck off them.

Local traffic can keep using the road, farmers driving certain classes of vehicle can use the road and the classes prohbited aren't really suitable for long distance driving on HQDCs any more than on motorways, learner drivers don't come into this at all-you can learn to drive anywhere, unless you are suggesting learner drivers should be 'commuting' which clearly they shouldn't. Once they pass their test they can then use the motorway.

munchkin_utd

murphaph wrote: »

..... The UK has issues of under-use of HQDC A roads because foreigners don't see a blue line on a map.

And sat navs also are set to give preference to motorway over (possibly riddled with traffic lights) dual carraige ways.

And with regards to tractors.
They can barely do 30kmh. Towns are a 30/ 40kmh zone. Dual Carraigeways can be 120kmh.
A town seems more of a suitable place safety wise for a tractor (i.e. all other traffic also at the same plodding speed) than a stretch of road with car drivers booting along doing 4 fold the speed.

The Word Is Bor

It’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that a local farmer would have to travel from his farm to the nearest junction via the existing local roads then travel along the motorway/dual carriageway to the next junction, get off and travel along the existing local roads to access another part of his holding which might have been severed by the motorway/dual carriageway as part of the CPO process.

Also agricultural accesses would not ‘normally’ be permitted off dual carriageways.

Motorways are strategic pieces of infrastructure not local road networks. In nearly all cases where dual carriageways/motorways are constructed in greenfield the old road would revert to a regional/local road.

Learner drivers have no place on these dual carriageways/motorways.

Farmers complain about everything on the off chance that something might drop into their paw.

Developers/landowners etc. can go fudge themselves. The days of building a slip road/junction onto a dual carriageway just to serve a particular housing development are long gone.

Local authorities would have an interest in some locations where existing roads might be required to carry a higher volume of traffic (~10%) due to these restrictions. More often than not these roads were carrying the 100% of the traffic anyway.

SeanW

Agree with all the pro-Motorway posts here - given the increased rules governing fast long distance travel and the potential for inapporpriate development on HQDCs, it's only right and proper that unbroken dual carriageways be festooned with blue signs. It also makes Ireland look better on a map the more blue lines we have on it. And as for the property developers, well given what they got away with in the recent past they have little to complain about.

Redesignate away :cool:

Thoie

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

It’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that a local farmer would have to travel from his farm to the nearest junction via the existing local roads then travel along the motorway/dual carriageway to the next junction, get off and travel along the existing local roads to access another part of his holding which might have been severed by the motorway/dual carriageway as part of the CPO process.

Genuine question - why is it disingenuous to suggest that? I'm not a farmer, and don't have any land that I need to travel to and from, but if half my farm is on one side of the motorway, and the other is on the other side, what's my reasonable alternative?

Amtmann

Thoie wrote: »

Genuine question - why is it disingenuous to suggest that? I'm not a farmer, and don't have any land that I need to travel to and from, but if half my farm is on one side of the motorway, and the other is on the other side, what's my reasonable alternative?

Overbridges.

Thoie

What, I go out and build my own overbridge? Or the NRA magically builds one for me before they change the designation?

And then I use this overbridge to walk cattle from field A to field B, and no-one will complain that there's cowsh** and piddle dropping on their cars from above?

As I've said, I agree that the learner drivers, the developers and the rest of them can feck off, but some farmers (probably not all of them) have genuine concerns.

Amtmann

*Sigh*

Overbridges are quite numerous and link regional or local roads over all motorways. Sure, they might add a few minutes to the chore of accessing one's land, but there's no possibility that a farmer would be completely cut off from some of his fields. You'd need to be hard pressed to drive more than 5km on an Irish motorway without coming across an overbridge or an underpass from which farmers can easily access their lands.

As for livestock being herded across L-roads and R-roads throughout Ireland, this is a fact of life in the countryside. I know of one overbridge on the M8 between Cashel and Cahir that is used almost exclusively for cows (at Rockwell College), while further down the M8 an underpass was constructed to accomodate another farmer in the parish of Knockgraffon. It's the very same situation on the C-C scheme and on the Mitchelstown to Fermoy scheme (where multiple underpasses have been constructed explicitly for farmers). In addition, practically all schemes involve the construction of rudimentary lanes and roads which aren't noticable from the motorway, but these do an excellent job in ensuring access to "bisected" land to all and sundry (many of these are being used as halting sites for Travellers along the M8; the point is, many kilometres of these lanes have been built).

So this excuse about 'access' is a red herring; furthermore, it's bullsh*t. But what it is actually about, as Bor said, is the prospect of money dropping into some farmer's paw - as though they haven't been adequately enough compensated as is.

And as has been pointed out, there is no reason for a farmer to use a HQDC to access his fields - it's not like he can build a gate on a dual carriageway, is it? No. What farmers should be doing instead is 1) using the old N road rather than the dual carriageway, and 2) crossing the Dual Carriageway on the N road via an overbridge, of which you can be sure there are many. Yes, it adds a few minutes to their work, but this is what they have been paid hundreds of thousands (and, in some cases, millions) of euro for.

Thoie

Furet wrote: »

*Sigh*

Overbridges are quite numerous and link regional or local roads over all motorways. Sure, they might add a few minutes to the chore of accessing one's land, but there's no possibility that a farmer would be completely cut off from some of his fields. You'd need to be hard pressed to drive more than 5km on an Irish motorway without coming across an overbridge or an underpass from which farmers can easily access their lands.

I wasn't trying to induce sighs

The areas of dual carriageway that they want to redesignate - do these already have bridges/underpasses?

Furet wrote: »

<snip bit about existing passes>

So this excuse about 'access' is a red herring; furthermore, it's bullsh*t. But what it is actually about, as Bor said, is the prospect of money dropping into some farmer's paw - as though they haven't been adequately enough compensated as is.

And as has been pointed out, there is no reason for a farmer to use a HQDC to access his fields - it's not like he can build a gate on a dual carriageway, is it? No. What farmers should be doing instead is 1) using the old N road rather than the dual carriageway, and 2) crossing the Dual Carriageway on the N road via an overbridge, of which you can be sure there are many. Yes, it adds a few minutes to their work, but this is what they have been paid hundreds of thousands (and, in some cases, millions) of euro for.

If the bridges/underpasses already exist on these bits of roads, fair enough, I have no sympathy. And I'm familiar with places where arrangements have been made, and again I have no sympathy that it takes an extra 2 minutes to get somewhere, when you've been paid well for that land.

What I would have sympathy for are places where I've sold my land to make a dual carriageway, with no alternative arrangements made (because none were needed), and I now suddenly have to drive 20 miles around to get to my other field. In that case, yes, I'd be asking for a bridge/tunnel to be in place before the designation is changed.

If you tell me that all those farms already have alternative arrangements in place then I'll agree with you and say to hell with the lot of them.

Victor

darkman2 wrote: »

Typical bullsh*t gombeenism from culchies

Easy now.

mysterious

I don't agree with the N11 been upgraded to motorway south of Bray. That road is not really an inter urban. This route is fine as DC to cater for the commuters of the east coast. There is alot of accesses and windy curves on this section. I just don't see the justification for making blue restrictions here.

I really don't. Money could be spent elsewhere upgrading roads.


There is an obsession in this country, to turn every DC into motorways. Enough of it already.

The only reclassifications should be The N6/7/8/9 and that it is it. The athlone bypass should not be reclassified either. All local traffic and learners have to negoiate their way through Athlone town. That is not acceptable. Speed limit will stay 100kmh. So there is no point putting motorway restrictions here. There is a large amount of local traffic use this bypass since its the second crossing over the Shannon.

The glanmire bypass was built as DC, it should not be reclassified. It has steep curves. Therefore stays as DC.

This is getting over the top, wanting blue roads everywhere. It's nonsense.

Thoie

mysterious wrote: »

The only reclassifications should be The N6/7/8/9 and that it is it. The athlone bypass should not be reclassified either. All local traffic and learners have to negoiate their way through Athlone town. That is not acceptable.

Why will local traffic have to go through town? If it's that local, wouldn't it want to go to town anyway?

And isn't it good experience for the learners to do some town driving? I don't know of any test routes that involve only going up and down dual carriageways.

dubhthach

Thoie wrote: »

Why will local traffic have to go through town? If it's that local, wouldn't it want to go to town anyway?

And isn't it good experience for the learners to do some town driving? I don't know of any test routes that involve only going up and down dual carriageways.

I also fail to see why local traffic would suddenly be banned from the Athlone bypass if it was redesignated Motorway. Could it be that the original post means traffic such as Tractors/Motorbikes under 50cc?

Most traffic on the M50 could no doubt be classified as local traffic after all

df1985

in my experience in rural areas it wont stop tractors usinfg them,in small rural areas the farmers know all the local gardai so nothin is done about it.if caught theyre told to just get off the motorway and its not taken further.

as for learners, and im a guilty one, the L plates simply come down.not exactly a danger, easiest roads to drive on and im going the same speed as everyone else.

veryangryman

Thoie wrote: »

Why will local traffic have to go through town?

Try Athlone where the only 2 ways across the river is through town centre or DC

Thoie wrote: »

If it's that local, wouldn't it want to go to town anyway?

No. What if you live in the west suburbs and work in the east suburbs? Like me. No interest in going near the town on a normal weekday. The journey to work would take an extra half hour if went through town

Thoie wrote: »

And isn't it good experience for the learners to do some town driving? I don't know of any test routes that involve only going up and down dual carriageways.

Some do. Mine went from Kilmartins onto the DC as far as Ballymahon exit.

Thoie

veryangryman wrote: »

Try Athlone where the only 2 ways across the river is through town centre or DC

No. What if you live in the west suburbs and work in the east suburbs? Like me. No interest in going near the town on a normal weekday. The journey to work would take an extra half hour if went through town

Some do. Mine went from Kilmartins onto the DC as far as Ballymahon exit.

You're confusing me. If you normally commute along the dual carriageway, why are you talking about local traffic having to go through town? Why wouldn't you just take the motorway from junction 73 and get off at junction 75 (or whatever they'll be).

And my point was that I didn't know of any driving test that consisted solely of dual carriageway - presumably your test went other places as well? Or did your tester ask you to do a turn about on the dual carriageway?!

mysterious

Thoie wrote: »

You're confusing me. If you normally commute along the dual carriageway, why are you talking about local traffic having to go through town? Why wouldn't you just take the motorway from junction 73 and get off at junction 75 (or whatever they'll be).

And my point was that I didn't know of any driving test that consisted solely of dual carriageway - presumably your test went other places as well? Or did your tester ask you to do a turn about on the dual carriageway?!

The athlone bypass is an all purpose bypass and it should remain so. it should be allowed to have learner and other vehicles on this route. More than half the traffic that uses this bypass is local. This bypass does not have a 120kmh speed limit. So learners and farmers can use it to get over the shannon. The curves are steep on this interchange. there is far to much weaving and closely spaced interchanges also.

Why does it have to be motorway FFS. what is the obsession. In england, there would be no issue at all left as an all purpose DC. it wouldn't even be mentioned.

Why should this be motorway can anyone tell me, I dont want opinions I want FACTs.

Thoie

mysterious wrote: »

Why should this be motorway can anyone tell me, I dont want opinions I want FACTs.

Because it's a key route right across the country, and by forward planning and improving the infrastructure, thereby improving travelling times, it leaves the country in a better position to decentralise large businesses out of Dublin/Cork and provides employment in marginal areas come the end of the recession.

Alternatively it will suck all the local businesses dry and send everything to Dublin or Galway.

I have reports to hand that say each of these, so it depends on which you want to read.

invincibleirish

mysterious wrote: »

Why does it have to be motorway FFS. what is the obsession. In england, there would be no issue at all left as an all purpose DC. it wouldn't even be mentioned.

Why should this be motorway can anyone tell me, I dont want opinions I want FACTs.

Road nerds just want a map with lots of blue lines, that is all they are interested in. It looks good and they can get lots of praise & discussion on Sabre & Skyscraper city.

Only in Ireland would we have a situ where DCs have to be M-wayed in order to protect from gombeen local councils, can we do anything right?.

invincibleirish

Thoie wrote: »

Because it's a key route right across the country, and by forward planning and improving the infrastructure, thereby improving travelling times, it leaves the country in a better position to decentralise large businesses out of Dublin/Cork and provides employment in marginal areas come the end of the recession.

Alternatively it will suck all the local businesses dry and send everything to Dublin or Galway.

I have reports to hand that say each of these, so it depends on which you want to read.

Show me these reports, specifically the reports that talk about decentralising large businesses out of Dublin/Cork to provide employment in marginal areas.

mysterious

Thoie wrote: »

Because it's a key route right across the country, and by forward planning and improving the infrastructure, thereby improving travelling times, it leaves the country in a better position to decentralise large businesses out of Dublin/Cork and provides employment in marginal areas come the end of the recession.

Alternatively it will suck all the local businesses dry and send everything to Dublin or Galway.

I have reports to hand that say each of these, so it depends on which you want to read.

Improving travelling times. How would the Athlone bypass as under motorway restrictions make a difference. You haven't show any facts or evidence. You just said it's a key route. What the **** does this mean to anything.


Athlone bypass has to stay as 100kmh. It has 4/5 interchanges all within a few km. It has steep curves a bridge with no HS and is the only crossing of the shannon outside the town. Why should this become motorway? It's been a DC for the last 15 years, I don't know how it didn't attract investment into the region, cus whether it's DC or motorway makes no difference.


I'll read facts.

Thoie

invincibleirish wrote: »

Show me these reports, specifically the reports that talk about decentralising large businesses out of Dublin/Cork to provide employment in marginal areas.

No. Commission and pay for your own.

If you'd like one for free that's publicly available from the opposite side of the coin (from 2007), take a look at http://www.feasta.org/documents/epa_transport/douthwaite_economic_content.pdf

Chris_533976

The one thing I'd worry about not having the Athlone bypass redesignated is if its a bit of DC sandwiched between two motorways. That would result in a Cumberland Gap style situation, which would be bad and possibly quite dangerous.

It would have been better if they had built a new motorway to the south of Athlone instead of re-using the old bypass, but that would have required a hacking great bridge over the Shannon and what would the point of that have been when there was a perfectly good DC there already