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Motorway Redesignation sparks huge complaints
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mysterious wrote: »It is fairly curved, with 4/5 interchnages all within a few km. and much weaving movments. It has a bridge with no HS.
A bridge with no hard shoulder? There are tonnes are motorways in the UK that have bridges where the H/S dissappears, and if that's so important to you, then it's even more reason for cyclists/tractors to be restricted from using the road since it makes it even more dangerous for them.
The Athlone Bypass doesn't need the full 120 km/h speed limit, just restrictions to make it safer. The actual road itself (with re-surfacing) is of a reasonable build-quality. The close interchanges we can do nothing about at this stage, but it still doesn't mean the road shouldn't be M.
The Athlone Bypass is below normal specifications for a motorway, but certainly it isn't below spec to be redesginated. It is a reasonable grade-seperated dual carriageway with no accesses, and that's all it needs to be. Restrictions are for safety purposes, consistency purposes and to protect the road from development. Not to make a map look nice.What spec are you basing on? why is there need to turn every DC into a motorway. Blunt you are one of the guys here that are over the top with this wanting blue roads all over the map. If it's not up to the spec. It is not up to the spec. This route is far to dangerous to be motorway and the route must stay at 100kmh.
Again, putting words in my mouth. Must I quote myself:BluntGuy wrote:I never suggested that all DCs should be changed to motorways, you put those words in my mouth. There is no bandwagon to be jumped on. The routes suitable for redesignation were picked, and the intention of all routes in question is to cater for long-distance traffic (with the exception of the N3) - the PURPOSE OF A MOTORWAY.
Btw, I never suggested that the speed limit on the Athlone Bypass be increased.
Your contiunal assertion that the Athlone Bypass is below spec is an invalid reason not to redesignate it in light of the benefits it would have.The Athlone bypass isn't motorway and I just don't see the point in spending millions putting up blue signs here either.
Read my post...BluntGuy wrote:I would like to dispell the myth that not redesignating will save us money. It will NOT. New signage is being put up regardless of redesignation. The color of the signage will depend on whether the stretches are accepted or not. You may refer to the motorway redesignation thread if you require evidence of my source.
So that "money-wasting" argument (which I'm sure the councillors will use at some stage) is blown out the window I'm afraid.0 -
So why do you want learners of this road. The road is going to be 100kmh. same as the existing N6. Why should learners have to get off here and go through the town instead? Since the Athlone is a crossing point of the Shannon and caters for the demand of all purpose traffic, I can't see how this is justified. Your ok with this road not getting blue signs.
Cus bull**** aside, I do know this is what you want. A blue Athlone bypass. The restrictions are not justified. The speed limit is lower for a valid reason. Learners can therefore drive on it. It does not make it unsafer.
The Athlone bypass hasn't been issue or safety hazard since it opens, so why is there a sudden panick to want this be given restrictions
Motorway is it?:rolleyes::D
Bluntguy I'm sorry but this doesn't fool me.0 -
Mysterious - I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue.0
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The Athlone Bypass doesn't need the full 120 km/h speed limit, just restrictions to make it safer. The actual road itself (with re-surfacing) is of a reasonable build-quality. The close interchanges we can do nothing about at this stage, but it still doesn't mean the road shouldn't be M.
There you said it yourself. You want it to be motorway, despite it been under spec.
Why I don't see the reason why it should be made motorway. I know why some people do though, cus it looks prettier on a map. :rolleyes:The Athlone Bypass is below normal specifications for a motorway, but certainly it isn't below spec to be redesginated. It is a reasonable grade-seperated dual carriageway with no accesses, and that's all it needs to be. Restrictions are for safety purposes, consistency purposes and to protect the road from development. Not to make a map look nice.
Yes learner drivers and the odd few tractors. Give me a break.......
I'm sorry but your argument is "screaming I want a blue road"
Then it doesn't need to redesignated.Btw, I never suggested that the speed limit on the Athlone Bypass be increased.Your contiunal assertion that the Athlone Bypass is below spec is an invalid reason not to redesignate it in light of the benefits it would have.
Tell that to a learner driver. See what he says, have to go through the town or do a 20mile round trip to cross the Shannon. I don't think there is any safety concern allowing them to still use the Athlone bypass, It's not a motorway and you can't really go fast on it
So what is the problem?
Still want a blue road eh?:D0 -
Mysterious - I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue.
Well I'm sorry you feel that way.:)
I like to be realistic. There are people here screaming I want blue roads all over the map. I'm saying yes, we can have all HQDC redesignated.
Not all existing DC, and not roads like existing N11. Not the Athlone bypass etc. They are not up to the spec. They were built as all purpose DC. These routes I mentioned carry a large volume of local traffic. These routes have never had safety issues. These routes were fine with learners and what not using them. They have a lower speed limit.
This thread is screaming I want blue motorways and thats it, without taking consideration for all sides here. You don't just go hey I want N54 motorway now, and expect local traffic, farmers and learners to just suddenly find other ways to get around locally if this is the road they haven been travelling for years.
I'm not here to plead like a road nerd. I'm here to see a bit of balance on this front.0 -
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Mysterious why do you hate motorways so much? What is wrong with having a national network of motorways instead of patchy bits of alternating blue and green?
The main reason I now prefer motorway over any form of N-regulated grade separated dual carriageway is to protect the long distance road from inapporpriate development (Mahon Point in Cork, Kew Gardens on the N4 etc. etc etc. History has shown that declaring a DC motorway is the only way to protect it from this kind of abuse. The road is and always has been the Athlone Bypass. No Grade Separated Junctions are due to be closed AFAIK and there are fewer L drivers on the roads and those that remain probably do not have L plates on anyway.
The ONLY effects of redesignating the bypass to Motorway will be:- Continuous M6 from the junction at Kinnegad to the outer limits of Galway City, instead of our own Cumberland Gap.
- Traffic not suited to a major dual carriageway (law abiding L drivers, tractors, cyclists, animals etc) will be forbidden.
- No inapproprate developments can be given planning permission along the route, so no repeat of the Kew Gardens/Mahon Point fiasco.
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mysterious wrote:The Athlone bypass hasn't been issue or safety hazard since it opens, so why is there a sudden panick to want this be given restrictions
Because, unless you haven't noticed, the Athlone Bypass is going to be sandwhiched between two pieces of 120 km/h M6 MOTORWAY. What is so difficult to understand about that? The Athlone Bypass isn't a piece of winding single carriageway, it is a relatively apt piece of grade-seperated DC. There is little justification for a cumberland gap when there is an alternative route available. It may not be an alternative certain people fancy using, but it's there none-the-less.There you said it yourself. You want it to be motorway, despite it been under spec.
You want it to be D2AP, despite the fact that logic dicates that as part of (mostly) motorway national route it should also be motorway.
Your reply to:BluntGuy wrote:Btw, I never suggested that the speed limit on the Athlone Bypass be increased.mysterious wrote:Then it doesn't need to redesignated.
Do you want me to go into how little sense that makes?
Your point about learner drivers is invalid as well. They can simply get the accompanying driver to drive should they want to use the M6 Athlone Bypass. It's not difficult.
And how many learner drivers use the bypass btw? Do you actually know? Because I'm reckoning it isn't all that many.0 -
Mysterious why do you hate motorways so much? What is wrong with having a national network of motorways instead of patchy bits of alternating blue and green?
I don't think he hates motorways - it's just that he wants them to exacting standards which is correct to a point, but...The main reason I now prefer motorway over any form of N-regulated grade separated dual carriageway is to protect the long distance road from inapporpriate development (Mahon Point in Cork, Kew Gardens on the N4 etc. etc etc. History has shown that declaring a DC motorway is the only way to protect it from this kind of abuse. The road is and always has been the Athlone Bypass. No Grade Separated Junctions are due to be closed AFAIK and there are fewer L drivers on the roads and those that remain probably do not have L plates on anyway.
...yes, developers behaving like children is an urgent matter, especially when safety and efficiency on our major national routes is being compromised. Yes, we would all like perfect motorways with hard shoulders, proper slips and 120kph signs all the way - but imperfect motorways are better than major dual carriageways being turned into glorified distributer roads with morons doing 50-60kph, an access for every estate in the vicinity and so on...
Of course, the speed limit should be reduced to 100kph where there are any imperfections such as LILOs (ie. N18) and H/S omissions until same are rectified - within five years that is!
Regards!0 -
Mysterious why do you hate motorways so much? What is wrong with having a national network of motorways instead of patchy bits of alternating blue and green?
The main reason I now prefer motorway over any form of N-regulated grade separated dual carriageway is to protect the long distance road from inapporpriate development (Mahon Point in Cork, Kew Gardens on the N4 etc. etc etc. History has shown that declaring a DC motorway is the only way to protect it from this kind of abuse. The road is and always has been the Athlone Bypass. No Grade Separated Junctions are due to be closed AFAIK and there are fewer L drivers on the roads and those that remain probably do not have L plates on anyway.
The ONLY effects of redesignating the bypass to Motorway will be:- Continuous M6 from the junction at Kinnegad to the outer limits of Galway City, instead of our own Cumberland Gap.
- Traffic not suited to a major dual carriageway (law abiding L drivers, tractors, cyclists, animals etc) will be forbidden.
- No inapproprate developments can be given planning permission along the route, so no repeat of the Kew Gardens/Mahon Point fiasco.
Never used the word hate on this thread Alot of the A1 in England is motorway, mixed with DC, because certain parts are not up to motorway.
May I add certain DC parts have double the traffic than any DC on this Island.
Your again screaming the argument of a perfect blue road, regardless of some stretches been under spec.0 -
Cumerbland gap is a rural grassland road where there is little urban sprawl the standard of the Cumberland gap would be alittle more superfior than the Athlone bypass, and anway its not Athlone and the N6 meeting at the shannon with one bridge. If you really want to compare, I can tell you for a fact, they wouldn't even bother upgrading this DC section at all. There are DC with over 100,000 vehicles a day in use in England. Cus of the nature of the bypass, it wouldn't even be a neccessaity to change it into a motorway.Because, unless you haven't noticed, the Athlone Bypass is going to be sandwhiched between two pieces of 120 km/h M6 MOTORWAY. What is so difficult to understand about that? The Athlone Bypass isn't a piece of winding single carriageway, it is a relatively apt piece of grade-seperated DC. There is little justification for a cumberland gap when there is an alternative route available. It may not be an alternative certain people fancy using, but it's there none-the-less.
The alternative route is not acceptable The bridge in Shannon can barely cope with the existing traffic. The alternative road goes through the medievel windy streets. There is no real benifet of reclassifieing this road, only than looking pretty on a map.
Your just arguing for the sake of a blue road regardless of any other point of view :rolleyes:You want it to be D2AP, despite the fact that logic dicates that as part of (mostly) motorway national route it should also be motorway.
There are many discontinuous and starting motorways where it goes from DC to Motorway back and forth. Why is it such a big deal now all of a sudden.
Blue road on a map eh?:D
The speed limit is 100kmh, I don't see what the issue is allowing learners onto this road, when they have been so for 19 years.Your point about learner drivers is invalid as well. They can simply get the accompanying driver to drive should they want to use the M6 Athlone Bypass. It's not difficult.And how many learner drivers use the bypass btw? Do you actually know? Because I'm reckoning it isn't all that many.
Then leave it be.0 -
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I've read all through this post particularly about some sausage type gap and Athlone being between two motorway sections.
I regularly drive between Brittany and Catalunya. In France the main cities have ring roads of vastly inferior quality and most have speed limits of 90kmh. Only sections of the Bordeaux and Toulouse have 110kmh limits on parts of their ring roads. Does this affect the journey greatly? No.
Is it worth upgrading the route to ensure there is motorway the whole way on the ring road to avoid upsetting the tourists? No (and France has the most tourists in the world)
What do they do in France? They reduce the speed limit and install a speed camera at points where the limit reduces or is dangerous because of more mixed traffic.
They also use a thick red line on their maps to show dual carriageway, with a black dividing line for Dual Carriageway, and with a White or yellow dividing line for motorway, yellow for toll road, white for free motorway. This idea of a motorway being so different it needs a different colour being alien to them. It's just a type of main road - main roads are red.
The tolled motorways also have sos phones, markings on the hard shoulder to the nearest phone, rest areas every 15 km or so, service stations every 60 km or so, prices of the fuel for the next 4 service stations, VMS on all the motorways, and consistent signage. There's also information signs to show places of interest as you pass along and every junction has a name as well as a number.
They are dear but a wee bit less than 3 euros for 4km like the westlink on the m50.0 -
They are considering building another ring road of Bordeaux to relieve congestion so a motorway upgrade is unnecessary.0
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Tell that to a learner driver. See what he says, have to go through the town or do a 20mile round trip to cross the Shannon.
This kind of nonsense is continually repeated in relation to this issue. The learner driver can simply ask the qualified driver instructing him to drive if in a hurry or he can drive through the town, it is in the town that he will be doing the driving test.0 -
So does this now mean you are open to the Waterford City Bypass (currently being built as a HQDC) being re-designated Motorwaymysterious wrote: »Well I'm sorry you feel that way.:)
I like to be realistic. There are people here screaming I want blue roads all over the map. I'm saying yes, we can have all HQDC redesignated.0 -
The Cumberland Gap is no more ... it's been full motorway since the end of last year.mysterious wrote: »Cumerbland gap is a rural grassland road where there is little urban sprawl the standard of the Cumberland gap would be alittle more superfior than the Athlone bypass, and anway its not Athlone and the N6 meeting at the shannon with one bridge. If you really want to compare, I can tell you for a fact, they wouldn't even bother upgrading this DC section at all. There are DC with over 100,000 vehicles a day in use in England. Cus of the nature of the bypass, it wouldn't even be a neccessaity to change it into a motorway.
http://www.nwemail.co.uk/cumberland_gap_is_finally_plugged_on_m6_motorway_1_280898?referrerPath=2.18870 -
Ah, but remember that this is Ireland where "learner" drivers commute to work every day with their L plates up, and usually with a distinct lack of accompanying qualified driverThis kind of nonsense is continually repeated in relation to this issue. The learner driver can simply ask the qualified driver instructing him to drive if in a hurry or he can drive through the town, it is in the town that he will be doing the driving test.
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This kind of nonsense is continually repeated in relation to this issue. The learner driver can simply ask the qualified driver instructing him to drive if in a hurry or he can drive through the town, it is in the town that he will be doing the driving test.
Exactly. Learner Drivers and developers wouldnt be the major obstacle. If there is enough access for farmers on the route to be redesignated then it shouldnt be a problem.
I think I would leading to more to the Athlone bypass with motorway restrictions of 100km/hr or less if required. If this isint designated motorway we could see more development of shops, etc. on the stretch and this could lead to traffic jams on the middle of a full motorway from Dublin - Galway. Its not blue lines were looking for, its the protection of our new road network. We dont want to be constructing more bypasses or upgrades in the future. End of.0 -
This seems like an odd arguement given that the vast majority of new DC have no agricultural access and no other access is permitted for development. Tractors and L drivers can use them at present but they must be doing some long distance tractor driving if they are!
The only odditiies will probably be the likes of the Athlone bypass. Having looked at google earth ... can't see much demand for agricultural access and it seems sensible that any future development can be faciltated by accessing existing junctions.
Even so, if the designation is to take place surely a number of overpasses can be built to allow agricultural access if lands are divided.0 -
This seems like an odd arguement given that the vast majority of new DC have no agricultural access and no other access is permitted for development. Tractors and L drivers can use them at present but they must be doing some long distance tractor driving if they are!
The only odditiies will probably be the likes of the Athlone bypass. Having looked at google earth ... can't see much demand for agricultural access and it seems sensible that any future development can be faciltated by accessing existing junctions.
Even so, if the designation is to take place surely a number of overpasses can be built to allow agricultural access if lands are divided.
The motorway obsessed crew here, are using this as an excuse to make Athlone bypass look pretty. By putting restrictions, they are praying every night for it to happen.
Learners don't need to be taken off it, the speed is the same as the existing national primary routes. The speed limit is 100kmh. In 19 years of use, there was never an issue with learners using it. There is to many closley spaced interchanges too, so speed and motorway restiction isn't going to have any effect. And as some said here, there won't be a drastic numbers of tractors on it or whatever, why ban them?
My point is this, the road is not up to spec regardless, it is an all purpose bypass and thats the bottom line here. They are just trying to find any excuse to make it a blue road. It's really pathetic.0 -
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The Cumberland Gap is no more ... it's been full motorway since the end of last year.
http://www.nwemail.co.uk/cumberland_gap_is_finally_plugged_on_m6_motorway_1_280898?referrerPath=2.1887
Yes, I know. I do read.0 -
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This kind of nonsense is continually repeated in relation to this issue. The learner driver can simply ask the qualified driver instructing him to drive if in a hurry or he can drive through the town, it is in the town that he will be doing the driving test.
Why cant he use the Athlone bypass, the speed limit is 100kmh like the existing road.
The road isn't motorway, I ain't repeating nonsnese. the motorway obessed creew keep bringing it up to counter their argument, but when I give them this response they shut up.0 -
mysterious wrote: »My point is this, the road is not up to spec regardless, it is an all purpose bypass and thats the bottom line here. They are just trying to find any excuse to make it a blue road. It's really pathetic.
Your constant whining about how the road shouldn't be motorway just to satisfy a small lobby of people, a lot of whom don't even have genuine reason to be concerned is pathetic.
The road isn't under spec. It is a grade-seperated DC. No local accesses. It is part of a long-distance motorway. You need to stop being so anal about this.
Your rationale boils down to the fact that YOU personally have a problem with it being redesignated. You've given no valid explanation why, you've simply stated that all we want to see is a solid blue line on the map. Well if it's going to boil down to logic so ridiculous, then yes I'd rather see a solid blue line on a map than a green patch in the middle for no reason.
The bottom line is that the Athlone Bypass is now part of a motorway. Motorways don't have tractors, learners and slow vehicles on them.
Besides, one would imagine that you, mysterious, would have no problem with the redesignation since according to you: only a "few" tractors will be affected. If that's the case, why are you so rampantly against it?0 -
No, it's not 100% perfect. Big deal. With the appropriate signage for sharp turns, the Shannon bridge with no hard shoulder. etc. and the 100kph speed limit it shouldn't be a problem.mysterious wrote: »Never used the word hate on this thread Alot of the A1 in England is motorway, mixed with DC, because certain parts are not up to motorway.
May I add certain DC parts have double the traffic than any DC on this Island.
Your again screaming the argument of a perfect blue road, regardless of some stretches been under spec.
The M50 for example has a number of out-of-motorway spec features yet it still carries M-regs from its junction with the M11 to the end of the Port Tunnel - the new 3 lanes with some filter lanes setup has lane widths that are narrower than our Motorway specification allows - so the speed between Junction 1 and Junction (whatever) is capped at 100kph.
There is also what I consider to be a very bizarre setup at the junction between the M50, M1 and M:eek:32. Travelling North on the M50 from the N2 and N3 area, to continue on the M50 into the Port Tunnel you have to go around a roundabout (M regulations) and there's also a single carriageway link road between that junction and the old N1 (Malahide Road) and a bit of that leading up to the M50/M1 junction is also under M-regs despite being a single carriageway, because it leads inescapably to a motorway. On a roundabout.
Now THERE's a setup where there ought not to be a blue sign in sight! As Homer Simpson would say "D'oh" The NRA also plans to build a lot of 3 Level Stack (grade separated motorways but a roundabout controlled interchange) junctions between motorways like the M6 and M17/18. >_<
The Athlone bypass a fully grade separated (unbroken median) dual carriageway, with that for the most part meets HQDC spec as most people would percieve it.
Hell, I can understand that - I can certainly see why a passionate car hater might not like to see lots of blue lines on the national road map - I can also understand greedy developers wanting to make a quick € by festooning our primary roads with Kew Gardens' and Mahon Points - greed is a perfectly natural impulse and sometimes quite healthy, but must be kept in check when public assets are involved, and history has shown that the only way to protect our National roads from abuse to M-regulate them.MYOB wrote:Redesignation doesn't have the speed advantage in the UK; however... but there are definately long stretches of HQDC that would be blue'd up over here but won't be in the UK due to the very strong anti-road lobby. Sections of the A27; most of the A55 come to mind.
And yes I would like to see more blue lines forming a coherent network on the Irish road map - but only on Grade Separated Dual Carriageway and higher quality roads. That's why things like Kew Gardens really grind my gears.
I agree that Motorways should have a certain standard, but I'm more concerned about non-motorway standard roads M'ed under the "inescapably leads to a motorway" rule and idiotic M-regulated roundabouts, of which the M50/"M"32/M1 and future but less stupid M6/M17/M18 junctions are the biggest.0 -
I agree that Motorways should have a certain standard.
Yes, and the Athlone bypass meets that standard. A motorway is defined as road with controlled access and restrictions on the types of traffic that can use it. That is it. Features like the higher speed limit are simply auxillary features that we generally associate with motorways but aren't necessarily mandatory.0 -
mysterious wrote: »Why cant he use the Athlone bypass, the speed limit is 100kmh like the existing road.
The road isn't motorway, I ain't repeating nonsnese. the motorway obessed creew keep bringing it up to counter their argument, but when I give them this response they shut up.
I think you'll find you've got nobody to "shut up" with your poor arguments and pleas.0 -
Port Tunnel is a new addition to the ring road network, can't use this as a comparison, and anyway this is going to be fully free flow this time next year.No, it's not 100% perfect. Big deal. With the appropriate signage for sharp turns, the Shannon bridge with no hard shoulder. etc. and the 100kph speed limit it shouldn't be a problem.
The M50 for example has a number of out-of-motorway spec features yet it still carries M-regs from its junction with the M11 to the end of the Port Tunnel - the new 3 lanes with some filter lanes setup has lane widths that are narrower than our Motorway specification allows - so the speed between Junction 1 and Junction (whatever) is capped at 100kph.
There is also what I consider to be a very bizarre setup at the junction between the M50, M1 and M:eek:32. Travelling North on the M50 from the N2 and N3 area, to continue on the M50 into the Port Tunnel you have to go around a roundabout (M regulations)
But it's not a motorway. It's still has green signs and it's has always been a blunder, this example does not make the Athlone bypass now a motorway either.and there's also a single carriageway link road between that junction and the old N1 (Malahide Road) and a bit of that leading up to the M50/M1 junction is also under M-regs despite being a single carriageway, because it leads inescapably to a motorway. On a roundabout.
I don't watch the simpsons thank god, funny how you bringing the simpsons into this...Now THERE's a setup where there ought not to be a blue sign in sight! As Homer Simpson would say "D'oh"
Your point being?The NRA also plans to build a lot of 3 Level Stack (grade separated motorways but a roundabout controlled interchange) junctions between motorways like the M6 and M17/18. >_<
What about the curves? closly spaced interchanges and a design speed of 100kmh.The Athlone bypass a fully grade separated (unbroken median) dual carriageway, with that for the most part meets HQDC spec as most people would percieve it.
Why does it have to be motorway, when it's not.
Athlone bypass has never had this problem in 19 years, mahon points won't be built, as there is not much land adjacent to the Atlone bypass. Not to mention the amount of interchanges closely spaced, there really is no room to put something of a montrosity there, it's never been an issue before, it won't be suddenly one now.Hell, I can understand that - I can certainly see why a passionate car hater might not like to see lots of blue lines on the national road map - I can also understand greedy developers wanting to make a quick € by festooning our primary roads with Kew Gardens' and Mahon Points - greed is a perfectly natural impulse and sometimes quite healthy, but must be kept in check when public assets are involved, and history has shown that the only way to protect our National roads from abuse to M-regulate them.
Yes but not all roads can be motorway.And yes I would like to see more blue lines forming a coherent network on the Irish road map - but only on Grade Separated Dual Carriageway and higher quality roads. That's why things like Kew Gardens really grind my gears.I agree that Motorways should have a certain standard, but I'm more concerned about non-motorway standard roads M'ed under the "inescapably leads to a motorway" rule and idiotic M-regulated roundabouts, of which the M50/"M"32/M1 and future but less stupid M6/M17/M18 junctions are the biggest.
There is nothing wrong with the three level stack under motoway restrictions. This prove your not familar with the standards that need to be met for motorways. The M18, M6 and M17 are completely free flow through that interchange, it's the left movements that have to negoiates off the interchange. This does not affect the mainline motorway at all.
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What gap? Yes the old N1 was subsumed into the new N1 at Dromod but there is a minor road parallel at this point. This road is fine for the little traffic that cannot use motorways and could be improved a little if need be.
This is a political thing, nothing to do with alternative routes.
And the a1 at the terminal roundabout of the scheme was also covered for a short distance. You can see the severed section in use as a cycle track now0 -
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I think you'll find you've got nobody to "shut up" with your poor arguments and pleas.
I'm not making a poor argument. It just proves, that no matter what you want a pretty blue road, and I'll say it again no matter what.
The Athlone bypass is not up to spec, dance around the bush all you like, scream around the tree all you like.0
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