Motorway Redesignation sparks huge complaints

mysterious

Chris_533976 wrote: »

The one thing I'd worry about not having the Athlone bypass redesignated is if its a bit of DC sandwiched between two motorways. That would result in a Cumberland Gap style situation, which would be bad and possibly quite dangerous.

It would have been better if they had built a new motorway to the south of Athlone instead of re-using the old bypass, but that would have required a hacking great bridge over the Shannon and what would the point of that have been when there was a perfectly good DC there already

Why would it be dangerous, cus some people are colour blind and might not notice the difference between a blue signed road and a green sign road.

Can you tell me how it would be dangerous. Can you elaborate on that. thanks.

invincibleirish

Thoie wrote: »

No. Commission and pay for your own.

If you'd like one for free that's publicly available from the opposite side of the coin (from 2007), take a look at http://www.feasta.org/documents/epa_transport/douthwaite_economic_content.pdf

What? you talk about having reports that show that having M-way status which:

leaves the country in a better position to decentralise large businesses out of Dublin/Cork and provides employment in marginal areas come the end of the recession.

Where can i publicly access these reports that you say you have to hand? its the first i've heard of the notion of decentralising industry and jobs from Dublin & Cork to 'marginal areas' as a result of Mway development.

The document you linked to is concerned with the limitations of EIS with regards to new road schemes. Thats not what i asked for.

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

Why would it be dangerous, cus some people are colour blind and might not notice the difference between a blue signed road and a green sign road.

Can you tell me how it would be dangerous. Can you elaborate on that. thanks.

Tractor pootling half in the h/s, half in lane 1 at 20km/h while most traffic just ploughs on at 120km/h between the two motorways.

Cumberland was so bad as it was D2AP between two D3Ms; this would be D2AP between two D2Ms so not as serious a problem, but still bad.

mysterious

I'm still waiting for my facts??:)

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

There is alot of accesses and windy curves on this section. I just don't see the justification for making blue restrictions here.

The windy sections with accesses are the sections which are not being upgraded...

serfboard

To me, it's entirely logical that this is happening.

From what I've understood, in order to convince them not to object to the original proposals, to speed up construction, and in order to get them to part with their land, the roads were DC and farmers were given to understand that it would be alright for them to use the roads to access their lands.

Now the Department is about to change the rules, and the farmers are, understandably, getting upset. I'm just surprised that the first round of designations went through so successfully. If, in a limited number of cases, a quick overbridge would solve the problem, then go ahead and build it.

As for the developers, as others have said, they can feck off.

Regarding Athlone, I've read a lot of arguments on boards for and against. Having used the road quite a bit, having seen first hand the amount of local traffic using it (getting on and one junction and off at the next) and having heard the safety arguments, I think it should be left as is.

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

Tractor pootling half in the h/s, half in lane 1 at 20km/h while most traffic just ploughs on at 120km/h between the two motorways.

Cumberland was so bad as it was D2AP between two D3Ms; this would be D2AP between two D2Ms so not as serious a problem, but still bad.

Athlone bypass will not be 120kmh anyway. Are you going to persuade tractors to go through the town and why should Athlone have to endure all the restrictions of the motorway on it's second crossing and only to put more pressure on the town bridge.

Athlone bypass has many interchanges, a steep curve on both sides of the bypass, and alot of local traffic using this route with a speed limit of 100kmh. it's not built for motorway speed anyway.

If it was, it would of been a motorway from the beginning.

The only argument I see is, people wanting to have a blue road on the map. In France you have the Bordeaux to Lyon motorway with some parts only DC. Get over it seriously. This is just stupid.

I will not agree with any road become a motorway for the craic of it. If it's not up to standard, then it's not up to motorway standard.

Anyway what is the big deal about a few tractors. I'd hardly see tractors on this road anyhow.

mysterious

serfboard wrote: »

To me, it's entirely logical that this is happening.

From what I've understood, in order to convince them not to object to the original proposals, to speed up construction, and in order to get them to part with their land, the roads were DC and farmers were given to understand that it would be alright for them to use the roads to access their lands.

Now the Department is about to change the rules, and the farmers are, understandably, getting upset. I'm just surprised that the first round of designations went through so successfully. If, in a limited number of cases, a quick overbridge would solve the problem, then go ahead and build it.

As for the developers, as others have said, they can feck off.

Regarding Athlone, I've read a lot of arguments on boards for and against. Having used the road quite a bit, having seen first hand the amount of local traffic using it (getting on and one junction and off at the next) and having heard the safety arguments, I think it should be left as is.

But the NRA puposly did not go through with a motorway order on some of it's routes, as it would have to provide much underpasses for local and agricultural traffic. Now they are pressing for motorways. The Nenagh to Limerick was meant to be motorway way back in 1998. They pulled the plug on it cus the farmers were not happy they had no access to the road or access to their lands.

If the NRA did this right, then there would be no issues whatsoever. The other thing I don't understand that almost every DC should be a motorway. I fail to see why? If some roads are not up to motorway, then there should be no fuss over it.

invincibleirish

How about all Agri. Vehicles banned on all Motorways & Dual Carriageways? it'll avoid any confusion in future.

While we're at it introduce measures to curb agri. vehicles on busy roads during peak hours.

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

Athlone bypass will not be 120kmh anyway. Are you going to persuade tractors to go through the town and why should Athlone have to endure all the restrictions of the motorway on it's second crossing and only to put more pressure on the town bridge.

And people are going to do 120km/h on it anyway; unless it gets GATSOs. c.f. the people attempting to do 100km/h between the two bits of the N11 DC as is.

Thoie

invincibleirish wrote: »

Where can i publicly access these reports that you say you have to hand?

I also have my recent bank statement to hand, it doesn't mean you can access it.

If it makes everyone feel better, how about this:

"I was totally lying, nobody, anywhere has anything that says anything like what was said, ever. The only information in the world is that which is available to people with internet access, and to suggest otherwise was very very wrong of me, so wrong that I'm now going to flagellate myself."

That better? You can even quote me on it.

invincibleirish

Thoie wrote: »

I was...lying

Yes, this is what i assumed alright.

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

And people are going to do 120km/h on it anyway; unless it gets GATSOs. c.f. the people attempting to do 100km/h between the two bits of the N11 DC as is.

Right well thats another story.

But you still haven't given any reason as to why the Athlone bypass should have motorway restrictions. This road was built as the Athlone relief road back in 1992. It was built as a second crossing to alievate the bottleneck that Athlone was. It's an all purpose road for this reason. Traffic has to cross at this point otherwise local traffic has to travel into Athlone or travel a 30mile roundtrip to Shannonbridge.

If they can upgrade the Athlone bypass to allow an expressway service and separate the local traffic from the existing road, then I'll up for it. I'm not here to support the farmers purely. But it is not anyway acceptable to force them off this road. I'm fine with motorway restrictions throughout the remainder of the Galway Dublin route and other traffic have alternative old N6 which is perfect.

L1011

Is it not even older than 1992?

Anyway, it wasn't built as a relief road - it was built as a bypass. Local traffic should be using the towns road network, not causing congestion on a bypassed national route.

Its not safe to have an AP road between two sections of motorway. Best option would be to put an S2 actual relief road in to the south of the town and close some of the junctions on the existing bypass.

mysterious

invincibleirish wrote: »

How about all Agri. Vehicles banned on all Motorways & Dual Carriageways? it'll avoid any confusion in future.

While we're at it introduce measures to curb agri. vehicles on busy roads during peak hours.

I don't think its the farmers fault here. If the NRA built proper underbridges so farmers wouldn't have to travel many miles around to the nearest interchange or bridge to navigate back to their destination, then it wouldn't of been a problem. The NRA have made it pretty difficult for them.

The NRA, closed many of the old local roads that cross the path of the HQDC, and gave farmers the alternative of using the HQDC instead to get to their locality. Now the farmers are been told that they local accesses have been removed and they now can't use the HQDC as it's been reclassified.

This is the point I don't agree with, and everyone here is quick to ignore this point. This is not right.

The other issue here, is that some people want blue road restrictions, cus it looks pretty on a map. That is nonsense. This is the real problem I have with this.

icdg

mysterious wrote: »

I don't agree with the N11 been upgraded to motorway south of Bray. That road is not really an inter urban. This route is fine as DC to cater for the commuters of the east coast. There is alot of accesses and windy curves on this section. I just don't see the justification for making blue restrictions here.

The N11 just south of Bray won't be reclassified - it has private accesses and a rather low speed limit - and indeed it is not up for reclassification. What they are proposing to reclassify on the N11 is much further south, the Ashford-Rathnew and the Arklow and Gorey bypasses. These are not quite but nearly up to motorway standard (effectively the only difference is the presence of one LILO and compact GSJs as well as a lower design speed) but they are probably suitable for reclassification.

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

Is it not even older than 1992?

Anyway, it wasn't built as a relief road - it was built as a bypass. Local traffic should be using the towns road network, not causing congestion on a bypassed national route.

Its not safe to have an AP road between two sections of motorway. Best option would be to put an S2 actual relief road in to the south of the town and close some of the junctions on the existing bypass.

I'm sorry but your wrong. its a bypass yes. but it was not built purely for a bypass.

In 1992 traffic on the N6 was less than half it is now. The traffic problem was that it was the only crossing point for all types of traffic, long distance, local crossing and for the businesses of the town. The actual N6 had little impact on traffic in Athlone prior to the bypass. It made not much difference. Traffic is nearly as high now than it was when the N6 was trundeling down the town back in the day.

About 3,000 or 4,000 vehicles a day would of been long distance Galway Dublin crossing at Athlone. There is about 3 other main roads that converge at Athlone all coming from the North. This was why they built the road north of Athlone. All interchanges are built to provide a relief road around Athlone as well as providing the N6 traffic around the town. The N62 and N55 and other secondary route used to cross athlone and proceed North as well. This traffic needed to bypass Athlone as well. Traffic coming from the southwest wanting to head to Cavan or northwest would use the Athlone bypass aswell. So the idea that this road was built to cater only the N6 traffic is false.

I'm still waiting for your facts.

It was called the Athlone relief road when it was built.

L1011

Erm, "my facts?" What facts? You've not asked for any.

Anyway, it was called the Athlone Bypass in law from the very first day funding was assigned for it (lots of nice Oireachtas debates here). Whatever the locals on the ground may have decided to call it is another thing.

And this arguing of semantics still doesn't get around the fact that having learners, tractors, cyclists and walkers on a D2 road which is bookended with motorways is exceptionally dangerous. The road may have been save when it had D2 each end but its going to be driven faster and going to be a lot more dangerous when the second motorway joins up.

And no, it wasn't built to cater 'solely for N6 traffic', it was built to cater for national route traffic and to remove it from the town centre. NOT for short local journeys and certainly not for agri vehicles.

Irish and Proud

darkman2 wrote: »

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Typical bullsh*t gombeenism from culchies - expected nothing else tbh - that is the way they are down there.

...to hell with these gobsh***s, especially the developers - redesignate now!!! :mad:

Thoie

mysterious wrote: »

The NRA, closed many of the old local roads that cross the path of the HQDC, and gave farmers the alternative of using the HQDC instead to get to their locality. Now the farmers are been told that they local accesses have been removed and they now can't use the HQDC as it's been reclassified.

This is the point I don't agree with, and everyone here is quick to ignore this point. This is not right.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59551105&postcount=15

Amtmann

Thoie wrote: »

I wasn't trying to induce sighs

I withdraw my churlish sigh in that case.

The areas of dual carriageway that they want to redesignate - do these already have bridges/underpasses?

The two N8 sections have several overbridges and underpasses, yes. The rest I don't know about, but they all almost certainly do. Others can confirm this. As I said, it's inconceivable in this country that overbridges (that would allow access) are absent from all or even one of the redesignation candidates.

If the bridges/underpasses already exist on these bits of roads, fair enough, I have no sympathy. And I'm familiar with places where arrangements have been made, and again I have no sympathy that it takes an extra 2 minutes to get somewhere, when you've been paid well for that land.

I agree - and my suspicion is that this is just an excuse to have a whinge and obtain 'compo'.

What I would have sympathy for are places where I've sold my land to make a dual carriageway, with no alternative arrangements made (because none were needed), and I now suddenly have to drive 20 miles around to get to my other field. In that case, yes, I'd be asking for a bridge/tunnel to be in place before the designation is changed.

Again, where in this country do you have 20 miles of motorway sans overbridges/underpasses? You just don't have that here. Overbridges are too common for that on all our grade separated dual carriageways. Also, I have to say I don't quite see the logic; how could the scenario you posit above arise? No farmer can directly access his land off a dual carriageway as things stand. Agreed? So, even before redesignation, presumably in your scenario he would have driven along the DC to the nearest grade seperated junction and access his land via that. The only thing that would change if redesignation were to go through would be that instead of travelling to the junction on the motorway, he would now have to travel along the original old single-carriageway road to that junction - and, as we all know, these all run parallell to the DCs anyway. What difference would it make to the farmer really?

If you tell me that all those farms already have alternative arrangements in place then I'll agree with you and say to hell with the lot of them.

Naturally I don't have the specifics. My argument is that given the regularity of overbridges and underpasses along all Irish grade separated dual carriageways, the question of access must be bogus in almost every case. (Bear in mind, of course, that there have reportedly been a flood of objections.)

mysterious

mysterious wrote: »

Athlone bypass will not be 120kmh anyway. Are you going to persuade tractors to go through the town and why should Athlone have to endure all the restrictions of the motorway on it's second crossing and only to put more pressure on the town bridge.

Athlone bypass has many interchanges, a steep curve on both sides of the bypass, and alot of local traffic using this route with a speed limit of 100kmh. it's not built for motorway speed anyway.

If it was, it would of been a motorway from the beginning.

The only argument I see is, people wanting to have a blue road on the map. In France you have the Bordeaux to Lyon motorway with some parts only DC. Get over it seriously. This is just stupid.

I will not agree with any road become a motorway for the craic of it. If it's not up to standard, then it's not up to motorway standard.

Anyway what is the big deal about a few tractors. I'd hardly see tractors on this road anyhow.

The only valid reasion for the Athlone relief road to be designated a motorway, is to prevent any more junctions being constructed along it's length! I know of at least one councillor who is against redesignation as it goes against one of his developer friends who wants an additional access constructed.

If the road can be satisfacturally protected against any such development without being a motorway then leave as is.

Perhaps it could have the protection of a motorway (legally, preventing such development) but without restrictions for vehicles travelling on it.

If you travel on this road at certain times of the day, you'll always see at least one tractor.

The Word Is Bor

mysterious wrote: »

I don't think its the farmers fault here. If the NRA built proper underbridges so farmers wouldn't have to travel many miles around to the nearest interchange or bridge to navigate back to their destination, then it wouldn't of been a problem. The NRA have made it pretty difficult for them.

The NRA, closed many of the old local roads that cross the path of the HQDC, and gave farmers the alternative of using the HQDC instead to get to their locality. Now the farmers are been told that they local accesses have been removed and they now can't use the HQDC as it's been reclassified.

This is the point I don't agree with, and everyone here is quick to ignore this point. This is not right.

The other issue here, is that some people want blue road restrictions, cus it looks pretty on a map. That is nonsense. This is the real problem I have with this.

Since we are on a fact hunt, care to provide a few facts to substantiate the above?

mysterious

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

Since we are on a fact hunt, care to provide a few facts to substantiate the above?

What can facts are you looking for, since it's unawareness is the problem here. I don't think I have much paitence for that.

But what would you like to point me out on. Go ahead test me.

mysterious

Deleted User wrote: »

The only valid reasion for the Athlone relief road to be designated a motorway, is to prevent any more junctions being constructed along it's length! I know of at least one councillor who is against redesignation as it goes against one of his developer friends who wants an additional access constructed.

If the road can be satisfacturally protected against any such development without being a motorway then leave as is.

Perhaps it could have the protection of a motorway (legally, preventing such development) but without restrictions for vehicles travelling on it.

If you travel on this road at certain times of the day, you'll always see at least one tractor.

Because it's the shannon crossing point. The council can also object to development onto the relief road.

The Word Is Bor

mysterious wrote: »

I don't think its the farmers fault here. If the NRA built proper underbridges so farmers wouldn't have to travel many miles around to the nearest interchange or bridge to navigate back to their destination, then it wouldn't of been a problem. The NRA have made it pretty difficult for them.

How about some concrete facts here?

mysterious wrote: »

The NRA, closed many of the old local roads that cross the path of the HQDC, and gave farmers the alternative of using the HQDC instead to get to their locality. Now the farmers are been told that they local accesses have been removed and they now can't use the HQDC as it's been reclassified.

Again, some facts here would be nice. There are no local accesses (ie access solely for the farmer's use) off the Athlone Bypass or any other dual carriageway. Local roads might be closed but the detour/diversion would be of the order 1-2km, in some exceptional circumstances this might be longer, but generally not greater than 1-2km.

The facts are; if a farmer's lands are severed by a motorway/dual carriageway then those lands must be made accessible via an underpass (visible on nearly every scheme nowdays), an overbridge (M9/M10 Carlow Bypass for example) or using the local road network. If the lands are not made accessible then the severance is 100% and the lands are acquired as part of the scheme and may be incorporated into the works or sold off at a later date.

mysterious

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

How about some concrete facts here?

What do you want to me prove, the grass is green

what exact concrete evidence do you want

All HQDC, were not under motorway oders and all hqdcs allowed farm vehicles on them. If you dont know this then you really dont know much about this topic.

Since this was the way to go, the NRA didnt bother building many underpasses as tractors could use the existing interchanges and road itself

Now after these HDQC are built the NRA are reclassisfying them as motorways, so the facts are appearing in front of your eyes. Farmers and local politicians are not happy about it.

Foe some facts go out and see the cureent DCs yourself they are been changed to motorway already.

I'm not sure what kind of concrete facts your looking for cus what your asking is what everyone else knows. good god:D

read up the Nenagh to limerick plans and there will be much info of te local opposition to it been a motorway way back in 1999.

Again, some facts here would be nice. There are no local accesses (ie access solely for the farmer's use) off the Athlone Bypass or any other dual carriageway. Local roads might be closed but the detour/diversion would be of the order 1-2km, in some exceptional circumstances this might be longer, but generally not greater than 1-2km.

Right and what?

The facts are; if a farmer's lands are severed by a motorway/dual carriageway then those lands must be made accessible via an underpass (visible on nearly every scheme nowdays), an overbridge (M9/M10 Carlow Bypass for example) or using the local road network. If the lands are not made accessible then the severance is 100% and the lands are acquired as part of the scheme and may be incorporated into the works or sold off at a later date.

right and what?

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

I really don't. Money could be spent elsewhere upgrading roads.


There is an obsession in this country, to turn every DC into motorways. Enough of it already.

The only reclassifications should be The N6/7/8/9 and that it is it. The athlone bypass should not be reclassified either. All local traffic and learners have to negoiate their way through Athlone town. That is not acceptable. Speed limit will stay 100kmh. So there is no point putting motorway restrictions here. There is a large amount of local traffic use this bypass since its the second crossing over the Shannon.

The glanmire bypass was built as DC, it should not be reclassified. It has steep curves. Therefore stays as DC.

This is getting over the top, wanting blue roads everywhere. It's nonsense.

Right now hold on a minute, you are pointing out the N6/N7/N8 only be redesignated but there are also other high quality dual carriageways built outside of the inter urbans. Why should these not get redesignated? There are built to same type of standard so please tell us all why they should not be redesignated?

These are all built to ensure farmers/learners whatever have an alternative route to travel and plenty overbridges provided.

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

Farmers and local politicians are not happy about it.

Foe some facts go out and see the cureent DCs yourself they are been changed to motorway already.

Now your having a laugh. The NRA clearly pointed out years ago that when a high quality dual carriageway will be constructed it will be more than likely be redesignated motorway. If politicians were doing their jobs right they would have seen all this before the road was even constructed.

I find it madness that after all the billions we spent building these motorway standard roads that they might not be be redesignated motorway.

I'm not sure what kind of concrete facts your looking for cus what your asking is what everyone else knows. good god:D

The word is bor was referring to giving us hard facts that the farmers wouldnt be able to access their land. Now back up your rants by showing some prime examples that farmers wouldnt be able to access their land on dual carriageways to be redesignated before you continue waffling on. And dont mention the athlone bypass I dont think it should be motorway myself.

mysterious

tech2 wrote: »

Now your having a laugh. The NRA clearly pointed out years ago that when a high quality dual carriageway will be constructed it will be more than likely be redesignated motorway. If politicians were doing their jobs right they would have seen all this before the road was even constructed.

I find it madness that after all the billions we spent building these motorway standard roads that they might not be be redesignated motorway.



The word is bor was referring to giving us hard facts that the farmers wouldnt be able to access their land. Now back up your rants by showing some prime examples that farmers wouldnt be able to access their land on dual carriageways to be redesignated before you continue waffling on. And dont mention the athlone bypass I dont think it should be motorway myself.

The Nenagh to Limerick route was one I mentioned twice. I said when it was in plannin it was meant to be motorway. But it was stopped because teh farmers and locals didn't agree with the lack of underpasses. It was then changed to HQDC. So they could use the DC. So this is why the Nenagh to Limerick became HQDC. This is a local example. There could be more.

There is not many bridges and underpasses on this route. Now it's been reclassified to motorway. So the farmers and locals have lost both ends of the stick.

Btw what routes other than the N6/7/8/9/17/18/20 do you want reclassified too?