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Motorway Redesignation sparks huge complaints

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    #62
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    mysterious wrote: »
    The Nenagh to Limerick route was one I mentioned twice. I said when it was in plannin it was meant to be motorway. But it was stopped because teh farmers and locals didn't agree with the lack of underpasses. It was then changed to HQDC. So they could use the DC. So this is why the Nenagh to Limerick became HQDC. This is a local example. There could be more.

    A lack of underpasses but not necessarily no underpasses. They are probably complaining about 2 or 3km of extra distance to access their land.
    Btw what routes other than the N6/7/8/9/17/18/20 do you want reclassified too?

    No you mentioned that only N6/N7 and N8 be redesignated. Anyway these are other candidates in the future: N7 tunnel and the N4 sligo inner relief road for redesignation also.


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    #63
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    tech2 wrote: »
    A lack of underpasses but not necessarily no underpasses. They are probably complaining about 2 or 3km of extra distance to access their land.



    No you mentioned that only N6/N7 and N8 be redesignated. Anyway these are other candidates in the future: N7 tunnel and the N4 sligo inner relief road for redesignation also.


    Why would the Sligo inner relief road get it too, it has a roundabout on one end and crosses a bridge with traffic lights.

    This country is laughable, and clearly becoming a sexual obsession for every road to become a motorway:rolleyes:


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    #64
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,546 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    I think Athlone is a bit unique as bypasses go. We have 6 (count em) accesses to the town.

    Compare to Naas, Drogheda, Dundalk etc. Only 2 or 3 accesses, so Motorway traffic can continue at speed without batting an eyelid

    To make Athlone Motorway, you would need to upgrade Roscommon Exit, close Coosan and Tuam and perhaps even the 2 Ballymahon Exits.

    This would leave us with eastern access at Kilmartins and western access at Roscommon Road.

    Which would p1ss off numerous existing businesses/locals

    So i dont think it will ever happen TBH. You only lose 2 minutes max on this road being 100KMPH as it is. And most people doing the full Dub-Gal stint tend to stop in Kilmartins/Apple Green anyway


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    #65
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    mysterious wrote: »
    Why would the Sligo inner relief road get it too, it has a roundabout on one end and crosses a bridge with traffic lights.

    This country is laughable, and clearly becoming a sexual obsession for every road to become a motorway:rolleyes:

    The 10km of dual carriageway from the colllooney roundabout to the roundabout coming into sligo I am referring to. Of course any futher would be laughable with traffic lights. Why not? There is an alternative route into the town from collooney. The junctions are safe for motorway.


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    #66
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,546 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    mysterious wrote: »
    Why would the Sligo inner relief road get it too, it has a roundabout on one end and crosses a bridge with traffic lights.

    This country is laughable, and clearly becoming a sexual obsession for every road to become a motorway:rolleyes:

    Oh yeh..bypass that town baby! :D


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    #67
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    mysterious wrote: »
    This country is laughable, and clearly becoming a sexual obsession for every road to become a motorway:rolleyes:

    What about supporting a multi-billion euro Dublin Eastern Bypass then...?

    I would argue that opposition to the motorway reclassification plans are more symptomatic of regressive tendencies in this country - certainly as regards those agreeing with the objectors (as I said before, one can hardly blame the objectors themselves).


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    #68
    roosterman71
    Registered Users Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Here are my 2 europennies worth:

    Firstly, if these roads were built as DC, then local access for farmers via over/under passes probably weren't built. So their concerns are very valid in this case. Property developers and the like can go whistle. They'd be better off trying to sell what they have at some reasonable price instead of speculating about future building sites.

    The Athlone situation is going to be a problem because once the Athlone/Galway road is built, it will be an M road. So from Galway to Leixlip will be motorway, with a small section of DC in the middle around Athlone. Not a good idea, but not easy to change. The fact that the main/only route through Athlone town is no wider than a country lane would cause all sorts of problems in the town.


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    #69
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    tech2 wrote: »
    A lack of underpasses but not necessarily no underpasses. They are probably complaining about 2 or 3km of extra distance to access their land.



    No you mentioned that only N6/N7 and N8 be redesignated. Anyway these are other candidates in the future: N7 tunnel and the N4 sligo inner relief road for redesignation also.

    In fact, there are very few overbridges on this (the Nenagh to Limerick) scheme, precisely because there are so many underpasses. I drove the length of this recently and was quite annoyed that it was so hard to find an overbridge from which I could photograph the mainline. Bottom line, there is no problem with access on the M7 N-L . Farmers have adequate access.


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    #70
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Well, on the subject of the Glamire Bypass this morning I was heading northbound around one of those tightish bends and, lo and behold, a jeep with a camper van was overturned on the carriageway, completely blocking the hard shoulder, inside lane, and half the overtaking lane. Was not expecting that. Thankfully I was doing 100 km/h (i.e. the limit), and thankfully the car in front of me had good brakes. There were no Gardai on the scene. I'm sorry I didn't have to stop (a picture would have been cool), and thankfully no-one seemed hurt. I called it in to 96FM after I passed by. But this particular section should definitely be motorway, albeit with a 100 km/h limit. An L-driver might not have been able to respond quickly enough. This could have been potentially very serious.


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    #71
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Furet wrote: »
    In fact, there are very few overbridges on this (the Nenagh to Limerick) scheme, precisely because there are so many underpasses. I drove the length of this recently and was quite annoyed that it was so hard to find an overbridge from which I could photograph the mainline. Bottom line, there is no problem with access on the M7 N-L . Farmers have adequate access.

    Well that should be ok to go thankfully but I had another look at the report and it didnt actually say which routes are being complained about. I hope all the interurbans arnt affected at least. Maybe we should make up a list of the ones which might be affected?

    The Athlone bypass looks to be a problem for redesignation for a start. Im sure any HQDC are fine and were designed for motorway standards including for local traffic that couldnt drive the road. I think were more looking at some of the standard dcs that might not get redesignated.


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    #72
    roosterman71
    Registered Users Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Anyone who thinks that a DC runs right along the side of an existing N road is deluded. No DC is built beside the existing road. They often come close, but usually can be up to 5/6 miles away from the existing road. The fact that farmers can currently drive along a DC to bridge, and then on down a back road will change. The may now have to travel a few miles to the old road, more miles along that to get to the road over the DC and carry on. Anyone who is now facing into this scenario isn't going to be happy about being banned off a road.

    Also, all this anti-culchie bull is sickening. Some people on here can't see it from an affected persons point of view. Instead its rant and rave about farmers/boggers/red necks who are being told that the way they work is being fundamentally changed by a beuracratic decision which hasn't taken their concerns - valid or not - into account.


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    #73
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    roosterman71 wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks that a DC runs right along the side of an existing N road is deluded. No DC is built beside the existing road. They often come close, but usually can be up to 5/6 miles away from the existing road.

    Specific examples please.

    (Also, I'm a culchie myself.)


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    #74
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    roosterman71 wrote: »
    No DC is built beside the existing road.

    Also, the above statement is completely untrue. Just look at any up-to-date map.


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    #75
    roosterman71
    Registered Users Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    The Portlaoise bypass, all the way to kildare is a good spin away from the old N7

    The new M7 from Portlaoise to Nenagh is a good trip from the old road too (this has some bridges and underpasses built so maybe not relevent to this arguement)
    This map shows the distance the new road is from the existing road at Toomevara.
    Page 6 of this doc gives a better view of the Castletown-Nenagh section of the new M7

    M6 athlone to Galway is going miles from the existing road

    They're the ones I know of anyway.


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    #76
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    roosterman71 wrote: »
    The Portlaoise bypass, all the way to kildare is a good spin away from the old N7

    First, and with respect, your idea of "a good spin" is a good bit less than five or six miles. You're obviously not looking at the scale on any of the maps properly. Just look at the M7 on Google Earth - it's a maximum distance of 3km from old road to the motorway at the Monasterevin bypass. This is an irrelevent example on another level too - the M7 isn't up for redesignation.
    The new M7 from Portlaoise to Nenagh is a good trip from the old road too (this has some bridges and underpasses built so maybe not relevent to this arguement)

    It is not "a good trip" away! It is roughly parallel, and an absolute maximum of 4km (not miles) away from the old N7 at its furthest point, and that's to say nothing of the network of L- and R-roads that exist much closer anyway, and which you can be sure have accomodated these roads through a multitude of overbridges and underpasses.
    This map shows the distance the new road is from the existing road at Toomevara.
    Page 6 of this doc gives a better view of the Castletown-Nenagh section of the new M7

    Again, this is not "5 or 6 miles away" from the old N7. Look at it again. In fact, it's funny you mention Toomevara - because I actually went there to view the M7 from the current N7. It's a three minute spin from the village down an L-road at 60km/h. Second, again, you make no reference to the many accomodation works provided in the form of overpasses and underpasses.
    M6 athlone to Galway is going miles from the existing road

    Then this has no bearing on farmers whose land is on the existing N6, does it? And there's a perfectly good R-road at Athenry plus, again, plenty of overbridges and underpasses are being built to facilitate local people
    They're the ones I know of anyway.

    Yeah. So why did you say I was "deluding myself" when you said "no DC is built beside the old N road" (or words to that effect)? Bar one bit of the M6, they all are ffs!


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    #77
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    First of all, I am fully in support of all stretches being redesignated.

    Second, there has been a lot of rambling on in this thread about "facts". Well let me give you all two REAL facts with REAL evidence.

    - I would like to dispell the myth that not redesignating will save us money. It will NOT. New signage is being put up regardless of redesignation. The color of the signage will depend on whether the stretches are accepted or not. You may refer to the motorway redesignation thread if you require evidence of my source.

    - Farm accomodation structures are provided reasonably on most stretches in question, as well as plenty of overbridges. Look up the EIS plans if you don't believe me. IF there is a genuine case where there is not a reasonably efficient manner of accessing land after redesgination, then that can be sorted either using an engineering option (if cost-effective) or with a compensation package.

    Third, while I can sympthasize with the farmers, they need to realize that the safety of the road users', restricting the road from development and (in some cases) the reduced journey time is FAR MORE important than them having to spend an extra fifteen minutes to get from A to B. People need to look at the bigger picture. This single-minded, individual thinking is what is ruining the country. It's why we have the present mess of a government and it's why (ultimately) some of these roads may not get redesignated - despite the fact that all safety indicators and even common sense dictate that they should. People need to stop thinking about themselves all the time.

    The Athlone Bypass is a bypass, and while I feel that a new relief road is urgently needed, it doesn't change the fact that it is a DC that is soon to be part of a motorway network, and motorway networks are for long-distance, high-speed traffic. Does anyone here honestly think that somebody cycling their bike, walking their dog, slugging along in their tractor etc. will be SAFE behaviour? If you do then you're utterly and completely deluded. (And no, the hard shoulder isn't an extra lane exclusively for the use of slow vehicles - a misconception a lot of farmers seem to have from my experience).

    Face it, there are plenty of other towns in Ireland with and without bypasses that have tractors trundling through them every day (perhaps not as busy as Athlone, but the point remains the same). It's just something that has to be accepted. And I think some of us are overestimating the negative impact here entirely. This will not affect the vast majority of drivers in a negative way. The majority of people who will not be allowed to use the stretches are people, who, in fairness, should not be entitled to use them anyway for safety reasons. I still find it astonishing that the SRR in Cork doesn't have restrictions on it. Traffic zooms by... 120 km/h, but someone can still happily walk their dog on it.

    With all that mind, I would have to conclude that the positive impacts far outweigh the negative ones. True, some will have to suffer. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. The "collective good", so they call it. I can understand the reluctance from some, but I sincerely hope the DoT makes the right decision.

    roosterman71 - their concerns are being taken into account. Two public consultations were held where people were given the chance to submit their concerns. If their concerns weren't being taken into account then the DoT wouldn't be examining the issues and would just press straight ahead with the redesignation.


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    #78
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    The Athlone Bypass is a bypass, and while I feel that a new relief road is urgently needed, it doesn't change the fact that it is a DC that is soon to be part of a motorway network, and motorway networks are for long-distance, high-speed traffic. Does anyone here honestly think that somebody cycling their bike, walking their dog, slugging along in their tractor etc. will be SAFE behaviour? If you do then you're utterly and completely deluded. (And no, the hard shoulder isn't an extra lane exclusively for the use of slow vehicles - a misconception a lot of farmers seem to have from my experience).

    Well while I agree with all that you have said, there is still no scope for Athlone bypass getting redesignated.

    Sorry to blow a fuse on that one. It's not about farmers, it's about the design and safety of the bypass.
    Face it, there are plenty of other towns in Ireland with and without bypasses that have tractors trundling through them every day (perhaps not as busy as Athlone, but the point remains the same). It's just something that has to be accepted. And I think some of us are overestimating the negative impact here entirely. This will not affect the vast majority of drivers in a negative way. The majority of people who will not be allowed to use the stretches are people, who, in fairness, should not be entitled to use them anyway for safety reasons. I still find it astonishing that the SRR in Cork doesn't have restrictions on it. Traffic zooms by... 120 km/h, but someone can still happily walk their dog on it.

    Cus, A it was never built as a motorway. B. It was built as a southern relief road for the southern suburbs of Cork back in the 80s. It's actually an urban dual carriegway.

    People need to get their facts straight. It's only since the late 90s since it actually became a ring road where it now joins the N22 and N8 on either end. It has roundabouts, traffic lights and local accesses off it.

    Why do you think it should have restrictions on it. Is there an alternative route? Is there a 120kmh speed limit? is it free flowing?

    Why the fup is everyone having this delusional sense that every DC we build in this country should have restrictions. It's getting really pathetic, and bluntguy you are also supporting this bandwagon too. It shouldn't be given motorway restrictions, not until it has motorway charististics and up to this standard.

    Why is it that we have to have every route designated to motorway, when it has a dual lane road. There are more dual carriegways in the UK than there is motorways, does this mean all DC over there should be changed to motorways aswel?


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    #79
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    roosterman71 wrote: »
    The Portlaoise bypass, all the way to kildare is a good spin away from the old N7

    The new M7 from Portlaoise to Nenagh is a good trip from the old road too (this has some bridges and underpasses built so maybe not relevent to this arguement)
    This map shows the distance the new road is from the existing road at Toomevara.
    Page 6 of this doc gives a better view of the Castletown-Nenagh section of the new M7

    M6 athlone to Galway is going miles from the existing road

    They're the ones I know of anyway.


    I'm so glad pulled your up on your so called "facts" cus I was going to explode literally by the amount of horsepoo I actually read.

    Seriously though, do you actually think before you type this? its so untrue it's silly. Better still to double check, have you actually travelled on the M7 or R445 seen how close they are??. When I'm on the bus coming from Dublin I can see the M7 for most of it's length the whole way down. The old runs practically right beside from Newbridge to Monasterevin. After that you dont see it till Ballybrittas as Furet has just stated. all the motorways actually run to close to the old roads for my liking. We would have a much better integrated motorway system if we had built in a radial grid system connecting the main towns and cities and not having to snake beside every single old national primary route accross the country.

    But really, rooter everyone of your points are woefully wrong.


    Anyway got a bit off topic.
    Anyone still want the Athlone bypass redesignated. If so why, I would like valid reasons?


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    #80
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,119 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    Anyone still want the Athlone bypass redesignated. If so why, I would like valid reasons?

    Safety. It is no place for learners, cyclists, pedestrians or slow vehicles and there WILL be deaths if they're on it.


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    #81
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    mysterious wrote: »
    Cus, A it was never built as a motorway. B. It was built as a southern relief road for the southern suburbs of Cork back in the 80s. It's actually an urban dual carriegway.

    I don't want the SRR to be motorway, I said I find it astonishing it doesn't have "restrictions". Anyway, I don't want to get too deep into it since it isn't up for redesignation anyway.
    Why the fup is everyone having this delusional sense that every DC we build in this country should have restrictions. It's getting really pathetic, and bluntguy you are also supporting this bandwagon too. It shouldn't be given motorway restrictions, not until it has motorway charististics and up to this standard.

    I could argue that I find it pathetic that a group of people are determined to lobby in favour of inappropiate development and farmers not having 20 extra minutes to get from A to B over increased safety, reduced journey time and protection from developers. All routes to be redesignated are near-motorway standard. Are you suggesting otherwise? Do you really think just because a route has a few LILOs, something many other countries have NO problem with, tractors should be allowed to clutter it up?

    I never suggested that all DCs should be changed to motorways, you put those words in my mouth. There is no bandwagon to be jumped on. The routes suitable for redesignation were picked, and the intention of all routes in question is to cater for long-distance traffic (with the exception of the N3) - the PURPOSE OF A MOTORWAY.
    Why is it that we have to have every route designated to motorway, when it has a dual lane road. There are more dual carriegways in the UK than there is motorways, does this mean all DC over there should be changed to motorways aswel?

    Again, nobody suggested this except you. And there are plenty of DCs in the UK perfectly capable of being motorway and many that arguably should be redesignated.
    Anyone still want the Athlone bypass redesignated. If so why, I would like valid reasons?

    I gave you a bucket of 'em just there... take your pick.


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    #82
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,119 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Again, nobody suggested this except you. And there are plenty of DCs in the UK perfectly capable of being motorway and many that arguably should be redesignated.

    Redesignation doesn't have the speed advantage in the UK; however... but there are definately long stretches of HQDC that would be blue'd up over here but won't be in the UK due to the very strong anti-road lobby. Sections of the A27; most of the A55 come to mind.


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    #83
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    Safety. It is no place for learners, cyclists, pedestrians or slow vehicles and there WILL be deaths if they're on it.

    So learners can't be allowed now on the Athlone bypass, since it's speed limit is only 100kmh. This is getting very silly. Silly would be the word

    Pedestrians don't walk on the Athlone bypass. Nor have I ever seen slow vehicles on it, the same way I never see slow vehicles on the motorway towards Dublin.


    The problem with the Athlone bypass it isn't up to spec, so it doesnt get redesignated, it is not because of farmers, leaners or people walking their dog. Since it's not a motorway, it's perfectly ok in my books that learners and tractors use this road like they are allowed to use the current N6. You can't go very fast on the Athlone bypass unless you risk your life.


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    #84
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,119 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    So learners can't be allowed now on the Athlone bypass, since it's speed limit is only 100kmh. This is getting very silly. Silly would be the word

    Pedestrians don't walk on the Athlone bypass. Nor have I ever seen slow vehicles on it, the same way I never see slow vehicles on the motorway towards Dublin.

    How often do you *use* the road? I've seen slow vehicles on it frequently. I've overtaken someone on a HORSE on it.

    Anyway, you have somewhat damaged some of your argument here - if slow vehicles never use it, what problem is there making these non-existant vehicles go through the town then?


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    #85
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    mysterious wrote: »
    The problem with the Athlone bypass it isn't up to spec, so it doesnt get redesignated, it is not because of farmers, leaners or people walking their dog. Since it's not a motorway, it's perfectly ok in my books that learners and tractors use this road like they are allowed to use the current N6. You can't go very fast on the Athlone bypass unless you risk your life.

    The Athlone Bypass isn't up to spec? What standards are you basing this on?


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    #86
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Perhaps Sinn Féin are behind this, their minister seems to think it appropriate for the Newry bypass not to be motorway so as not to inconvenience farmers and the like.


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    #87
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,119 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Perhaps Sinn Féin are behind this, their minister seems to think it appropriate for the Newry bypass not to be motorway so as not to inconvenience farmers and the like.

    If the new Newry bypass was motorway, there'd still be a small gap between it and our M1 due to no alternative route between two junctions as the old road was subsumed...


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    #88
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    I would like to know how many farmers are actually going to be genuinely affected (not those who are going to have 3 minutes added to their journey and are just seeking to grab a bit of compo money). I can almost garuntee you it will be a very low figure, and there will be viable compensation packages available to them.


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    #89
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    If the new Newry bypass was motorway, there'd still be a small gap between it and our M1 due to no alternative route between two junctions as the old road was subsumed...

    What gap? Yes the old N1 was subsumed into the new N1 at Dromod but there is a minor road parallel at this point. This road is fine for the little traffic that cannot use motorways and could be improved a little if need be.

    This is a political thing, nothing to do with alternative routes.


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    #90
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    I would like to know how many farmers are actually going to be genuinely affected (not those who are going to have 3 minutes added to their journey and are just seeking to grab a bit of compo money). I can almost garuntee you it will be a very low figure, and there will be viable compensation packages available to them.

    I get the feeling it's more the county councilors who are doing the objecting on behalf of their developer buddies. But rather than saying that directly, it sounds better if they harp on about farmers and L drivers instead.


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    #91
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    The Athlone Bypass isn't up to spec? What standards are you basing this on?

    It is fairly curved, with 4/5 interchnages all within a few km. and much weaving movments. It has a bridge with no HS.

    Most motorways don't have tightly spaced junctions.

    What spec are you basing on? why is there need to turn every DC into a motorway. Blunt you are one of the guys here that are over the top with this wanting blue roads all over the map. If it's not up to the spec. It is not up to the spec. This route is far to dangerous to be motorway and the route must stay at 100kmh.

    If this route was upgraded and weaving/local traffic was separated maybe. The Athlone bypass is still fairly curved in comparison to the latter of the whole N6 route. I don't think it should get the 120kmh speed either.

    The Athlone bypass isn't motorway and I just don't see the point in spending millions putting up blue signs here either.


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