will we ever see a 32 county republic

Johnboy Mac

stepbar wrote: »

I think most Irish people would like to aspire to a 32 county republic but TBH I can't see it happening in my lifetime. There's still too much hurt and resentment to make it happen.

We are not capable or the standard of our 'leaders' is not. One thing bringing some form of peace with outside help but total unitity - no way. I honestly hope I'm proved wrong.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Mate, it's early days in the peace process in the north, the insitiutions are only settling down and it going to take time. We're learning more and more about each others culture, political opinion and reason for the fear, hurt and anger that has been caused on all sides. Unionist Irishness is as important in Ireland as any other form of irishness. In regards to Sinn Fein, it isn't a catholic party. There are political members from a Protestant background. Billy Leonard MLA, was a former RUC reserve constable.

billy leornard merely an exception (and traitor in my eyes)

Bog Butter

junder wrote: »

you can argue all you like about practicalitys but it is of no interest to us, we do not want to be part of a united ireland because we do not see ourselves as irish, courtsey of sinn fein we see irishness, catholisim and republicanism interlinked with each other and excluding us, even on this site i see references to unionists being an alien presence on this island, and of course lets no forget the Loveulster parade in Dublin, a goldern propoganda oppurtunity to destroy the unionist myths about being unwelcome in the RoI ended up in us being chased out of dublin by a baying mob.

I hope you realise Junder that the way in which Sinn Fein use traditional Irish cultural symbols such as the tricolour, the Irish language and the GAA etc. is viewed by most down here as petty. Their armed campaign and continued use of such symbols have damaged what it means to be Irish.

I think it is true to say though that both sides are guilty over over emphasing their culture to such a point where it looks strange and alien from the view point of the outsider. There has been an erosin of the common ground between both cultures. This needs to be reversed; maybe then Unionism might not be seen as a simplicist reactionary movement but rather as a muti-faceted idea.

Only when is SF truely change will the cause for a UI advance. Sinn Fein do not truely reflect what it means to be Irish. Surely you know that numb skulls that brought voilence to the love Ulster parade were the moronic minority. Look at yer man below ... need I say more? It's not surprising that you would turn against the notion of viewing yourself as Irish. Hopefully that will change some day.

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

you can argue all you like about practicalitys but it is of no interest to us, we do not want to be part of a united ireland because we do not see ourselves as irish, courtsey of sinn fein we see irishness, catholisim and republicanism interlinked with each other and excluding us, even on this site i see references to unionists being an alien presence on this island, and of course lets no forget the Loveulster parade in Dublin, a goldern propoganda oppurtunity to destroy the unionist myths about being unwelcome in the RoI ended up in us being chased out of dublin by a baying mob.

Sorry to say mate, but I honestly think you are in a very small minority. (IN THAT YOU STILL BEAR GRUDGES************* NO OTHER MINORITY IS IMPLIED)

This was posted on another forum I visit today by a Nirish lad:

Theres those that don't care (want peace).
Theres those that join the bandwagon (sing songs, side with one side because of geography but wouldn't hurt anyone and want peace)
Massive majority.

Then theres those that honestly believe the 'other side' are scum, and would hurt if given opportunity.
Then theres those that actively seek to hurt the 'other side'.
Massive massive minority.

All the paramalitaries have lost their 'aims' (whichever aim that my be) and to the common people, they are no longer freedom fighters and protectors, but drug dealers and petty criminals.

Just looking at the public reaction to recent events - both sides are against this. These (literally) tens of people who belong to the last category are not wanted and will hopefully be caught before those on the fringes start wanting justice in the form of stupid retaliation.

To me, Nirish young people, Nationalist or Unionist, really don't care about the whole sh1tstorm that is NI politics anymore.
The biggest expression I've gotten from them is apathy.
Most just see the agressors on both sides as criminals, hiding under banners.

The vast majority of the NIrish that I know are interested in cars, women, sex, computers........... everything that the Sirish are interested in, and everything than normal young people in a peaceful, progressive society are interested in.

I understand that because of your background and your history, as stated in other posts, you have no doubt had very horrible experiences.
But you are representative of what went before, not of the current reality.

I think this cowardly treason perpetrated by RIRA&CIRA, seems to have shown just how very commited to peace the NIRISH and SIRISH really are.

What is stupefying for me is the fact that I recently had a Welsh 18 year old asking me recently what the troubles were!!
I told him and he was like:
"oh thats terrible, I hope it gets sorted out soon so"
i.e. as if it was like a minor tiff on the street.


The fact is that attitudes are changing, they have already changed.
The old elite in NI could never have considered the Good Friday Agreement but it happened.
The old elite in SI could never have considered the 19th Constitutional amendment, but that happened too.

Posters on this thread from NI, have themselves said they could never imagine something as proposterous as Sinn Fein & DUP working together!
Its far from perfect.
There are still mindless thugs looking to profit on their violence, willing to commit violence against the other side, but they are being shouted down across this forum and across this island.

I think (and hope) that they will get the message and just settle back into their crime, and that the authorities and the people will make them despised for operating under banners.


Here is a piece that was on the ITV news today:

An NIrish lad (Brian Lynch) about 18-20 is being interviewed in the street of a Republican area. He's openly saying he thinks the killings are fair enough and he has no problem with either British soldiers or the British police force being killed.

Now you will look at that and say "you see, what did I tell ya, fcuking bigots".

On the flipside, that ^bullsh1t^ made the news.
If you broadcast that 10 years ago, people would be queueing up to tell you "In other news, man has landed on the moon" :pac::pac:

Even the small minority of bigots that post on our threads of sympathy on this site, they are being given the cold shoulder and no one will accept their 'justification' for murder.
20 years ago, that was impossible.


I think you should forget about what Billy Leonard says, and start thinking about what Billy Shakespeare said: "Change is inexorable"


As for the mindless fcuking dawbrains like Brian Lynch, we just have to keep challenging them.
That guy doesn't even know what he is hating - hes just been reared to hate without question.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

billy leornard merely an exception (and traitor in my eyes)

Mate, times have moved on. People who were maybe from a catholic background would maybe support the union with Britian and people from maybe a protestant background would maybe support an all Ireland.

We need to get away from language like traitor. We need to round up these mindless idiots involved in these killings over the last week.

The north is moving on, working together as equals, in peace, for all the people.

jimmmy

Can'tseeme wrote: »

. Unionist Irishness is as important in Ireland as any other form of irishness. .

Why do some people say to the likes of junder so " Sorry to say mate, but I honestly think you are in a very small minority." and use Shakespeare quotations to try to get him to change ?

Can'tseeme wrote: »

.
In regards to Sinn Fein, it isn't a catholic party. There are political members from a Protestant background. Billy Leonard MLA, was a former RUC reserve constable.

You say Sinn Fein may not be a catholic party , but if you ever listened to them having a sing song after a few pints you would understand well what they think of those from other traditions. Even on their website they still sell IRA t-shirts ; what message is that giving out ?

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Mate, times have moved on. People who were maybe from a catholic background would maybe support the union with Britian and people from maybe a protestant background would maybe support an all Ireland.

We need to get away from language like traitor. We need to round up these mindless idiots involved in these killings over the last week.

The north is moving on, working together as equals, in peace, for all the people.

I'm sorry but how many of his fellow RUC men were murdered by the very people he is now in a party with

Daroxtar

I couldn't care less anymore. What would it achieve? In another generation or so the whole world will have 6 "countries", Camerico, Lamerica, Russia(again), Chindianea, Africa, Arabia, Austronesia and Europe. I'd just love for the b'stards to stop coming south every july, driving like deranged wnkrs, being messy drunks mouthing off at everyone about us down here being free state traitors/taigs and then telling us that everything up there is better anyway.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

I'm sorry but how many of his fellow RUC men were murdered by the very people he is now in a party with

Mate, we could be here all day exchanging stories of the IRA killing RUC men, RUC involved in collusion with loyalist paramilitiaries, etc. Would we get anywhere? There's been hurt and anger caused on all sides. There is a sucessful, inclusive peace agreement, that all the main players are signed up to. It's early days but we're all going in the right direction.

Darlie

junder wrote: »

I'm sorry but how many of his fellow RUC men were murdered by the very people he is now in a party with

And vice versa

Can'tseeme

jimmmy wrote: »

Why do some people say to the likes of junder so " Sorry to say mate, but I honestly think you are in a very small minority." and use Shakespeare quotations to try to get him to change ?




You say Sinn Fein may not be a catholic party , but if you ever listened to them having a sing song after a few pints you would understand well what they think of those from other traditions. Even on their website they still sell IRA t-shirts ; what message is that giving out ?

The vast majority of people in Ireland don't consider Unionists a very small minority. But the vast majority of British people do consider Ulster Unionist a very small minority in the UK.

In regards to people singing songs after a few pints, I think you're right, we could all do with growing up a bit. I also agree about the sale of IRA T-shirts, it's something I think Sinn Fein are going to have to move on from. But I would also like you to consider Unionist attitudes to the British Armed forces and RUC, who committed some horrendous crimes on Nationalist communities.

Nodin

junder wrote: »

you can argue all you like about practicalitys but it is of no interest to us, we do not want to be part of a united ireland because we do not see ourselves as irish, courtsey of sinn fein we see irishness, catholisim and republicanism interlinked with each other and excluding us,.

but when a protestant is accepted and does join

junder wrote: »

billy leornard merely an exception (and traitor in my eyes) ,.

Double-think much?

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Mate, we could be here all day exchanging stories of the IRA killing RUC men, RUC involved in collusion with loyalist paramilitiaries, etc. Would we get anywhere? There's been hurt and anger caused on all sides. There is a sucessful, inclusive peace agreement, that all the main players are signed up to. It's early days but we're all going in the right direction.

this is not about how many killed by who but about a former member of the RUC joining the party in which members were invloved in the killing of fellow members of the RUC, who is to say that somebody sitting in his sinn fein meetings was not responsable for killing somebody he knew and served with.

Nodin

junder wrote: »

this is not about how many killed by who but about a former member of the RUC joining the party in which members were invloved in the killing of fellow members of the RUC, who is to say that somebody sitting in his sinn fein meetings was not responsable for killing somebody he knew and served with.

....and as he's a former RUC officer, its as much a challenge to them, for much the same reasons.

Whats more interesting is your claim of exclusion while yourself turning on those who've actually been included.

jimmmy

Can'tseeme wrote: »

The vast majority of people in Ireland don't consider Unionists a very small minority.

Dannyboy83 only a few post ago wrote to him ( our unionist friend )" Sorry to say mate, but I honestly think you are in a very small minority." and told him to think about changing etc.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

But the vast majority of British people do consider Ulster Unionist a very small minority in the UK.

That is one of the beauties of the UK ; it accepts unionism as an equal. Minorities there, over the years, thrive. Ulster unionists look at the treatment they have got and would be likely - in their eyes - to get in a united Ireland. Do not forget the numbers of Protestants declined dramatically in Ireland in the decades following our independence, and there were incidents like Fethard-on-Sea.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

In regards to people singing songs after a few pints, I think you're right, we could all do with growing up a bit.

"We"? " all do" ? Speak for yourself.

junder

Nodin wrote: »

....and as he's a former RUC officer, its as much a challenge to them, for much the same reasons.

Whats more interesting is your claim of exclusion while yourself turning on those who've actually been included.

its called having an opinion, i have not called for any action to be taking against or that he should suffer any sanctions because of his descion, he has the right to join what ever party he llikes and likewise i have the right to have an opinion on that descion. Personly due to the Propoganada value in having a ex RUC and orange man join thier party out waighs any degust at his past, however i wonder how sinn fein would fgeel if a former member went and joined the Army

Nodin

junder wrote: »

its called having an opinion, i have not called for any action to be taking against or that he should suffer any sanctions because of his descion, he has the right to join what ever party he llikes and likewise i have the right to have an opinion on that descion.

Absolutely. Its just that your opinion is rather strange and contradictory, in that on the one hand you complain about exclusion, and then when a member of the Protestant community is included, you denounce him as a "traitor".

junder wrote: »

however i wonder how sinn fein would fgeel if a former member went and joined the Army

Given the age of recruits, you'd be better asking if they'd accept a former member of the Army. As ex-British army personnel have joined the Republican movement over the years, as far as I recall, the answer would be "no problem".

junder

Nodin wrote: »

Absolutely. Its just that your opinion is rather strange and contradictory, in that on the one hand you complain about exclusion, and then when a member of the Protestant community is included, you denounce him as a "traitor".



Given the age of recruits, you'd be better asking if they'd accept a former member of the Army. As ex-British army personnel have joined the Republican movement over the years, as far as I recall, the answer would be "no problem".

i don't believe i have called for his exculsion either, however while i accept sin feins mandate and i accept thier right to be part of the power sharing executive does not mean i actully like them as a party. As it happens i was talking about a former sinn fein member joining the british army (and not the other way round) or for that matter any body from the republican community joining the army, since while i know it happens (there are a few in my regiment) its not as if they can go public about it

jimmmy

Nodin wrote: »

As ex-British army personnel have joined the Republican movement over the years, as far as I recall, the answer would be "no problem".

Maybe nowadays ( people from the army joining a Republican movement ) ..depending if they "turned" or not .... do not forget it only a matter of a decade or so since the Republican movement ...if it discovered the identity of a member of the army or other security forces in the North...did not exactly send a bunch of flowers. Sometimes another type of present was left under the car. Its not easy for security forces or those who supported the security forces of a democratically elected western government to now accept everything the Republican movement may say....esp. as Sinn Fein still sells IRA t-shirts on their web site for example. As a northener said once " its bad enough you pissing on me, but do not try and tell me its only raining "

Nodin

junder wrote: »

i don't believe i have called for his exculsion either,

You called him a "traitor". Thats quite a hostile term, and the attitude that produces it is hardly going to be conducive to others who wish to join PSF. Therefore, you and those who would hold the same opinion are the barriers to more of the other community joining Sinn Fein.

junder

Nodin wrote: »

You called him a "traitor". Thats quite a hostile term, and the attitude that produces it is hardly going to be conducive to others who wish to join PSF. Therefore, you and those who would hold the same opinion are the barriers to more of the other community joining Sinn Fein.

I am not in the buisness of encouraging people to join sinn fein

Svalbard

malman wrote: »

I hope you realise Junder that the way in which Sinn Fein use traditional Irish cultural symbols such as the tricolour, the Irish language and the GAA etc. is viewed by most down here as petty. Their armed campaign and continued use of such symbols have damaged what it means to be Irish.

I think it is true to say though that both sides are guilty over over emphasing their culture to such a point where it looks strange and alien from the view point of the outsider. There has been an erosin of the common ground between both cultures. This needs to be reversed; maybe then Unionism might not be seen as a simplicist reactionary movement but rather as a muti-faceted idea.

Only when is SF truely change will the cause for a UI advance. Sinn Fein do not truely reflect what it means to be Irish. Surely you know that numb skulls that brought voilence to the love Ulster parade were the moronic minority. Look at yer man below ... need I say more? It's not surprising that you would turn against the notion of viewing yourself as Irish. Hopefully that will change some day.

Agree. It seems to be that what it means to be Irish in the North and what it means to be Irish in the south are very different things. I suppose considering the unique set of circumstances in the North its not surprising that the 2 main communities have developed in a way that is difficult for 'southerners' like myself to understand.

I really hate that 'them and us' attitude so prevalent in NI; As an Irishman from the ROI I object to being lumped into a group with zealous, blood-thirsty republicans, murderous thugs and ultra-conservative Catholics. I am none of those things, I support none of those things and neither does my society.

The bigotry and hatred on both sides of the political divide in NI, which seems so unshakable even when hidden under a veneer of civility really is unnerving. What I really object to is the assumption by unionists that these attitudes extend across the border - they do not.

Can'tseeme

jimmmy wrote: »

Dannyboy83 only a few post ago wrote to him ( our unionist friend )" Sorry to say mate, but I honestly think you are in a very small minority." and told him to think about changing etc.





That is one of the beauties of the UK ; it accepts unionism as an equal. Minorities there, over the years, thrive. Ulster unionists look at the treatment they have got and would be likely - in their eyes - to get in a united Ireland. Do not forget the numbers of Protestants declined dramatically in Ireland in the decades following our independence, and there were incidents like Fethard-on-Sea.



"We"? " all do" ? Speak for yourself.

Mate, I'm not interested in trading insults on a messageboard. I think you know I meant, both communities could maybe move away was the songs of triumphanism, billy boys and rebellion. I see your point about being treated badly in Ireland and that is something that people need to work on to bring down these barriers of fear that works on both sides. I would ask you to consider that some people feel that Unionists and Loyalists are anti-irish. I've heard many comments by unionist feeling isolation and rejection by people in Britian aswell.

All in all, British and Irish people are developing a much better relationship than there has ever been.

Deedsie

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

There are provisions in the Good Friday Agreement for unification.
Basically they give it on a plate, with probably war reparations ("reconstruction funds") as well.

That'll only happen as long as we keep the gun out of NI politics.
They'll never *be seen* to submit to terrorisim and I wouldn't blame them.

On the other hand, what will we do when we finally join with the North?

Possible problems:

• Irish state bankrupt
• 1 million unemployed
• Unionist parties would control over 1/3 the vote in an all Ireland council
• Loyalist terrorisim campaign
• Cost of anti-terrorrisim for Irish Government

How would unionists control 1/3 of the vote. I thought 1/6 would be more likely. 6 Million in Ireland. 1 Million unionists?

Nodin

junder wrote: »

I am not in the buisness of encouraging people to join sinn fein

I noticed. Which is telling, given previous comments re "exclusion".

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

its called having an opinion, i have not called for any action to be taking against or that he should suffer any sanctions because of his descion, he has the right to join what ever party he llikes and likewise i have the right to have an opinion on that descion. Personly due to the Propoganada value in having a ex RUC and orange man join thier party out waighs any degust at his past, however i wonder how sinn fein would fgeel if a former member went and joined the Army

Well Sinn Fein now have members on the Policing board. Something that would have been unheard of 10 years ago. But is widely support through nationalism/republicanism.

As I said, we're we're moving on.

jimmmy

Svalbard wrote: »

The bigotry and hatred on both sides of the political divide in NI, which seems so unshakable even when hidden under a veneer of civility really is unnerving..

I have met plenty of people from both sides of the religous divide in N.I. who get on fine, who are not bigoted etc

Svalbard wrote: »

What I really object to is the assumption by unionists that these attitudes extend across the border - they do not.

I think you have the same feeling against "unionists" as you claim they have about you.

junder

Svalbard wrote: »

Agree. It seems to be that what it means to be Irish in the North and what it means to be Irish in the south are very different things. I suppose considering the unique set of circumstances in the North its not surprising that the 2 main communities have developed in a way that is difficult for 'southerners' like myself to understand.

I really hate that 'them and us' attitude so prevalent in NI; As an Irishman from the ROI I object to being lumped into a group with zealous, blood-thirsty republicans, murderous thugs and ultra-conservative Catholics. I am none of those things, I support none of those things and neither does my society.

The bigotry and hatred on both sides of the political divide in NI, which seems so unshakable even when hidden under a veneer of civility really is unnerving. What I really object to is the assumption by unionists that these attitudes extend across the border - they do not.

i have no problem with the majorty of the people of the Republic of Ireland, nor do i feel threatned by your irish culture and i certinly do not hate it, its just not my culture. I was invloved in the PUP for many years and as such went to many conferences the length and breadth of this island, and i have met and dicussed many different subjects with all the partys represented on this island and the main land as well.
However what does do my head in is the complete inablity to understand why the hatred exists in Northern Ireland, incase you missed it we have just lived through a 30 year conflict, most of which was spent blowing the crap out of each other for no other reason then we did not fit into the right relgious/cultral/national group. Do we have to get over it, yes of course we do, but it won't happen over night, from my perspective its going to take a couple of decades atleast before i can trust sinn fein and not doubt they feel the same about unionists.

Can'tseeme

jimmmy wrote: »

I have met plenty of people from both sides of the religous divide in N.I. who get on fine, who are not bigoted etc



I think you have the same feeling against "unionists" as you claim they have about you.

Agreed, some people from the other side of the border also need to realise that we're not up here battering each other. My brother in law would be classed as a unionist but we all get on fine. I've friends from different backgrounds and get on fine.

Dannyboy83

jimmmy wrote: »

Why do some people say to the likes of junder so " Sorry to say mate, but I honestly think you are in a very small minority." and use Shakespeare quotations to try to get him to change ?

You misunderstood me mate.

I meant that as "Northern Irish people don't hold many grudges like they used to".
It just doesn't seem to have come out correctly (I thought it was crystal!)

junder was saying he still holds grudges.
Most NIrish young people honestly don't give a fcuk anymore (or maybe I'm just lucky with the people I've met)