will we ever see a 32 county republic

Dudess

Morris dancing isn't intimidatory and infused with hatred, sectarianism and triumphalism though.

The Raven.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It could do so be being passively accepted as an interesting historical artifact, like Morris dancing or something.

I guess we haven't grown up enough for that, yet.

'interesting historical artifact' ? Good idea!

I don't think I'm 'grown up enough' for this though !! -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dEZ4w7VRq4&feature=related

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ah, I see. In Northern Ireland, unlike anywhere else in the world, a vote for a political party is an unconditional and irrevocable expression of support for every single nuance of that party's policies.

I forgot, I'm dealing with Nationalist logic.

You're also dealing with Unionist logic. As pointed out earlier in this thread, you will be pushed hard to find an Unionist voting for a Nationalist party and a Nationalist voting for an Unionist party.

Have a look a few pages back when this was discussed. NI ain't a normal society like here. You've got 2 groups of people who majorly vote along tribal lines no matter how bad or good those policies are.

junder

The Raven. wrote: »

That is very simplistic and naïve, to say the least. The majority of people in the Republic of Ireland are generally neither sectarian nor intolerant. Nobody here expected the level of violence and bigotry that materialized at the so-called ‘Love Ulster’ march in 2006. However, it was obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that a march of this nature, given the history of such marches, would without doubt be considered by some to be inappropriate, especially in the historic area of O’Connell Street.

I don’t know whether or not the drum they were beating was the infamous Lambeg drum that has incited so much tension and hatred for many years. If not, it certainly seemed loud enough. The Lambeg drum ‘is utterly deafening, with a noise output of 115 - 120 decibels. When nearby you don't just hear it.. you *feel* the subsonics all through your chest and gut. It can be heard 5-6 miles away.’ It is hardly surprising that it is generally regarded by Catholics as a tribal instrument of intimidation.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Lambeg%20drum

The Orange marches in Northern Ireland around the 12th of July every year have caused a mass exodus of Catholics to the south, to avoid the trouble that they cause. One has to be realistic here and ask how on earth an Orange march in the centre of Dublin, with fifes and drums and provocative music, could possibly do anything to further the cause of peace and understanding.

becuase it part of the unionist culture and if you want us in a united ireland then you going to have to accept our culture and stop demonising and every possiable turn, one of the biggest orange parades on this island happens in donegal never any problems there, so if it can pass of peacefully in donegal why not dublin, moreover why can't irish citzens not parde in thier own captial city, would you tell polish people, or indians or pakistani people now livinh in ireland as irish citzens that they can't parade in dublin or is it just orange men. How do you feel about republicans having hunger striker commeration parades in british citys like glasgow or even london, do you have a problem with that?

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

You're also dealing with Unionist logic. As pointed out earlier in this thread, you will be pushed hard to find an Unionist voting for a Nationalist party and a Nationalist voting for an Unionist party.

Have a look a few pages back when this was discussed. NI ain't a normal society like here. You've got 2 groups of people who majorly vote along tribal lines no matter how bad or good those policies are.

YEP, It's the Zero sum mentality and that will take a long time to change. They really need Labour, Liberals and the Conservatives to get strong bases there to get over the divide. Can't see it happening.

While they have SF, SDLP, UUP, DUP etc., they'll never get over the divide. While those parties have took enormous steps, there very existence and popularity reinforces the divide.

Back on topic, I'd say a big majority of SF voters want an United Ireland and a slight majority of SDLP Voters. I think if an actual Referendum came up it could be a Lisbon.

"Yep, I'm pro a 32 county Ireland, but?"

Also A significant section of Unionists just want self rule, not direct rule.

K-9

junder wrote: »

becuase it part of the unionist culture and if you want us in a united ireland then you going to have to accept our culture and stop demonising and every possiable turn, one of the biggest orange parades on this island happens in donegal never any problems there, so if it can pass of peacefully in donegal why not dublin, moreover why can't irish citzens not parde in thier own captial city, would you tell polish people, or indians or pakistani people now livinh in ireland as irish citzens that they can't parade in dublin or is it just orange men. How do you feel about republicans having hunger striker commeration parades in british citys like glasgow or even london, do you have a problem with that?

Well said. My Dad was a Guard at the Rossnowlagh parade for years and never a bother. Marches go through Raphoe and Convoy every year and never a bother. Even the younger generation COI Etc. laugh at them now, but if they want to march, let them. I've no real connection with marches on Easter Sunday either.

Many of the same young lads who go to Rossnowlagh every year, went to Croke Park in 04, pre Rugby in Croker. Great time had by all, plenty of drink and no crap or messing.

gurramok

junder wrote: »

becuase it part of the unionist culture and if you want us in a united ireland then you going to have to accept our culture and stop demonising and every possiable turn, one of the biggest orange parades on this island happens in donegal never any problems there, so if it can pass of peacefully in donegal why not dublin, moreover why can't irish citzens not parde in thier own captial city, would you tell polish people, or indians or pakistani people now livinh in ireland as irish citzens that they can't parade in dublin or is it just orange men. How do you feel about republicans having hunger striker commeration parades in british citys like glasgow or even london, do you have a problem with that?

Err, Rossnowlagh has a population of about 60 residents in winter time!

As a non-Protestant but with Protestant heritage on one side of my family, can I join the organisation to 'defend the Protestant faith'?

If not, why not?

Dannyboy83

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

He knew Churchill was not a man of his word?



Are you sure he said this? As far as I'm aware the GFA, which Ahern of course has wholeheartedly endorsed allows for a 50+1 majority to be enough.

Sorry, I should have included the link with that mate:

51% majority not enough for Irish unity: Ahern

By Laurence White
Thursday, 20 November 2008
[URL="javascript:launchPopup('http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/51-majority-not-enough-for-irish-unity-ahern-14070188.html?action=Popup&gallery=no','', 420, 580, true, true, true, false);"] [/URL]

• Claim Dev torpedoed unity twice in WWII

A united Ireland could not be achieved by a simple majority poll in favour of constitutional change, according to former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.
In a previously unpublished interview, carried in today's Belfast Telegraph, Mr Ahern said a narrow 50% plus one in favour of unification would not work.
He argued that “a sizeable amount of people” north and south would be required to move to a united Ireland.
“The only way it can be done is if there’s a sizeable amount of people on the island of Ireland, North and South, believe this is the way forward,” he said.
“Fifty per cent plus one is not the way to do it. That would be a divisive thing to do. There’s no point having votes to find out that you’re 1 percent short or 1 percent over. That’s not the way to do it.”
The former Taoiseach’s views on Irish unity are contained in a lengthy interview conducted by Irish Times London Editor Frank Millar shortly after Mr Ahern left office in May this year.
However, in Dublin this week Mr Ahern stressed the unification of Ireland remains an “imperative” and not “an empty aspiration”.
He added: “I believe that the sooner we engage in the process of addressing Irish unity, in all its complexities, with all of its challenges, and the many opportunities it will present, the sooner the reality will occur.”
In Mr Millar’s book, ‘Northern Ireland: A Triumph of Politics”, Mr Ahern also remains upbeat about the survival of the power-sharing arrangement at Stormont and declares his confidence that First Minister Peter Robinson will be able to “square the circle” in leading a Democratic Unionist Party that still defines itself in terms of “smashing Sinn Fein”.
As the Executive gets back to work today after the 154-day deadlock between the DUP and Sinn Fein over the devolution of policing and justice powers, Mr Ahern repeated his understanding that Sinn Fein had “a cast iron guarantee” over the original May 1 deadline for achieving the return of the powers to local politicians.

The Raven.

junder wrote: »

becuase it part of the unionist culture and if you want us in a united ireland then you going to have to accept our culture and stop demonising and every possiable turn, one of the biggest orange parades on this island happens in donegal never any problems there, so if it can pass of peacefully in donegal why not dublin, moreover why can't irish citzens not parde in thier own captial city, would you tell polish people, or indians or pakistani people now livinh in ireland as irish citzens that they can't parade in dublin or is it just orange men. How do you feel about republicans having hunger striker commeration parades in british citys like glasgow or even london, do you have a problem with that?

I never said I wanted a united Ireland, and where have I ‘demonised’ your culture ‘at every turn’? I don’t tell anyone where they can or can’t parade. It’s not up to me. I merely pointed out the problems of an Orange parade in Dublin. Those facts cannot be denied. I didn’t attend the parade nor did I cause the violence. The hunger striker commemoration parades are of no consequence to me whatsoever. Why all this obsessive marching anyway?

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

becuase it part of the unionist culture and if you want us in a united ireland then you going to have to accept our culture and stop demonising and every possiable turn, one of the biggest orange parades on this island happens in donegal never any problems there, so if it can pass of peacefully in donegal why not dublin, moreover why can't irish citzens not parde in thier own captial city, would you tell polish people, or indians or pakistani people now livinh in ireland as irish citzens that they can't parade in dublin or is it just orange men. How do you feel about republicans having hunger striker commeration parades in british citys like glasgow or even london, do you have a problem with that?

Junder - honest question - if you did a spontaneous march in Cork, e.g. St.Patrick's day.
What do you think the reaction would be?

I won't pretend people would applaud at the start, but I'm sure people would tolerate it.
The whole point being that the scumbags who don't know what they're hating or why wouldn't be able to wreck it for the rest of us.


Why not go to a town like Bandon or Skibereen?
There are still plenty of protestants left in those towns who would probably be interested to see a parade.


I understand your comments, but feel that you are not fairly addressing the situation.
If you intention is to spread a message that the Orange men need to be accepted by Ireland before Unification happens, well, thats a good message.

But if those are your true beliefs, that the Irish people are demonising you, its not so good. Its not true either.

Can you cast your mind back to the 1995 Ireland vs. England football match when Combat 18 tore up the stadium and rioted?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcdnzeoBJT4
Can you recall that?
Were all English people labelled as scum?
No, they weren't, just Combat 18 - the Nazi group.

Its the exact same problem you are facing here with your marches.
Just a few small minded clowns are making the rest of the Irish look bad.
Thats all its ever been anyway.
On both sides.


Why don't you have a look at the videos and see the comments that Irish people left there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Dxro8c-h8&NR=1

Vast majority are comments of disgust

==


The other key point is that if some small minded bigots claim to hate you know, they probably wouldn't even care anymore once unification was achieved.
They just see you as an barrier to unification.

They would find some other cause to support, like the United Kingdom of Ireland and Scotland.

Gruffalo

Svalbard wrote: »

A majority, but only 47%. So even if Catholics outnumber Protestants at some stage the people of NI might decide to remain in the UK.


http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2007/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

I have agreed with a lot of your comments throughout this thread but quoting surveys without the breakdown of those surveyed is ridiculous. Some questions need to be asked, for example:

• Were an equal number of Catholics and Protestants surveyed?
• As women and men show different tendencies, were an equal number surveyed?
• Was there an equal spread across age groups, as they too show different tendencies?
• As many of the 65+ group will be dead before any vote is likely (harsh but true), how did this distort the figures?
• As many of those who will be eligible to vote are not yet 18, how are they likely to distort the figures?
• As some constituencies are predominantly nationalist and some predominantly unionist, what measures were taken to protect ecological validity?

The truth is nobody can say how a vote that is not likely to take place for another 15-20 years is likely to go.

One of the few things that these figures show us is that if current trends continue the Catholic vote is likely to be significantly higher than 47%. This is due to 2 factors - the older the age group the more anti-unification they are and many of these will be dead before a vote. The percentage of those in favour seems to increase as the age decreases therefore there are likely to be more in favour.

However, even this assumption is highly dependent on the breakdown of those surveyed.

schween

3greenrizla's wrote: »

can we really afford the six counties, no matter how much we want them.

Can they afford us

getz

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Sorry, I should have included the link with that mate:

another strange but true quote-ie700,000 people who live in the irish republic have british passports -thats 15%of the population

rcecil

Does it make sense to have 2 complete governments on an island this size? How much money is wasted? Does it make sense to have Irish people governed by a foreign power? There are lots of people in the business community who now understand the need. Does it make sense for Ireland to forget about what was written on the proclamation of 1916? Take a few minutes and read it..... Then go to www.sinnfein.ie and find out what you can do to make it happen.

Bottle_of_Smoke

junder wrote: »

becuase it part of the unionist culture and if you want us in a united ireland then you going to have to accept our culture and stop demonising and every possiable turn, one of the biggest orange parades on this island happens in donegal never any problems there, so if it can pass of peacefully in donegal why not dublin, moreover why can't irish citzens not parde in thier own captial city, would you tell polish people, or indians or pakistani people now livinh in ireland as irish citzens that they can't parade in dublin or is it just orange men. How do you feel about republicans having hunger striker commeration parades in british citys like glasgow or even london, do you have a problem with that?

It wasn't any ordinary Orange parade. It wasn't even to remember Northern Ireland's victims. It was specific to victims of republican violence. If it had of been in memory of all victims there wouldn't have been any trouble as the organisers of the riots wouldn't have been taken seriously.

I reckon it turned out exactly as Willie Frazer wanted. Probably more carnage than he anticipated so a great days work for that bitter little f*ck.

I do accept however, its an absolute disgrace Orangemen can't march anywhere they want. Hopefully that day will come.

gurramok

getz wrote: »

another strange but true quote-ie700,000 people who live in the irish republic have british passports -thats 15%of the population

Source/Link?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It wasn't any ordinary Orange parade. It wasn't even to remember Northern Ireland's victims. It was specific to victims of republican violence. If it had of been in memory of all victims there wouldn't have been any trouble as the organisers of the riots wouldn't have been taken seriously.

I reckon it turned out exactly as Willie Frazer wanted. Probably more carnage than he anticipated so a great days work for that bitter little f*ck.

I do accept however, its an absolute disgrace Orangemen can't march anywhere they want. Hopefully that day will come.

Yes, and no other victims group of republican violence was invited.

That parade(if you were there on the day and watched the tv footage) was by a few sectarian flute bands with a handful of civilians at the front, as seen also on youtube. Orangemen can only walk where they are wanted. No-one has a right to march where they want, it ain't the Queens highway.

Gruffalo

Previous posters have asked for positive reasons why we should strive for a United Ireland. These might include:

Northern Ireland is reliant on British handouts, regional Ireland also requires EU handouts. NI areas outside of Belfast, particulary the west are not gonna thrive while the current status quo remains. Irish counties such as Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim will struggle to prosper as the current status quo continues.

However, for proper regional development to take place Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Sligo and Letrim would all benefit from working together as one region.There would be the sufficient population (Greater than that of Connacht) to attract major investment. Duplication of public services could be eliminated. Infrastructure would be more cost effective. This could lead to further population growth which would in time make the region self sustainable and reduce the tax burden on the rest of the country.

junder

gurramok wrote: »

Source/Link?



Yes, and no other victims group of republican violence was invited.

That parade(if you were there on the day and watched the tv footage) was by a few sectarian flute bands with a handful of civilians at the front, as seen also on youtube. Orangemen can only walk where they are wanted. No-one has a right to march where they want, it ain't the Queens highway.

it was a unionist parade to commerate unionust victems of republican violence, whats wrong with that? If however other victems of republicans wanted to take part they would have been more then welcome. Do you know the flute bands that took part?

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Junder - honest question - if you did a spontaneous march in Cork, e.g. St.Patrick's day.
What do you think the reaction would be?

I won't pretend people would applaud at the start, but I'm sure people would tolerate it.
The whole point being that the scumbags who don't know what they're hating or why wouldn't be able to wreck it for the rest of us.


Why not go to a town like Bandon or Skibereen?
There are still plenty of protestants left in those towns who would probably be interested to see a parade.


I understand your comments, but feel that you are not fairly addressing the situation.
If you intention is to spread a message that the Orange men need to be accepted by Ireland before Unification happens, well, thats a good message.

But if those are your true beliefs, that the Irish people are demonising you, its not so good. Its not true either.

Can you cast your mind back to the 1995 Ireland vs. England football match when Combat 18 tore up the stadium and rioted?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcdnzeoBJT4
Can you recall that?
Were all English people labelled as scum?
No, they weren't, just Combat 18 - the Nazi group.

Its the exact same problem you are facing here with your marches.
Just a few small minded clowns are making the rest of the Irish look bad.
Thats all its ever been anyway.
On both sides.


Why don't you have a look at the videos and see the comments that Irish people left there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Dxro8c-h8&NR=1

Vast majority are comments of disgust

==


The other key point is that if some small minded bigots claim to hate you know, they probably wouldn't even care anymore once unification was achieved.
They just see you as an barrier to unification.

They would find some other cause to support, like the United Kingdom of Ireland and Scotland.

I do not believe irish people are demonising us i believe some irish repbulicans are demonising us there is a difference.

Pandcoa

junder wrote: »

it was a unionist parade to commerate unionust victems of republican violence, whats wrong with that? If however other victems of republicans wanted to take part they would have been more then welcome. Do you know the flute bands that took part?

Why did the organisers let some extremely contentious material go ahead if it was solely about victims of republican violence i.e carrying big pictures of the UVF/UDA bomber involved in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings that killed 26 people? Past the same place explosions went off no less

How would you think of people rioting in the Shankill if a picture of Thomas Begley was paraded past their homes? Quite understandable in my mind

gurramok

junder wrote: »

it was a unionist parade to commerate unionust victems of republican violence, whats wrong with that?

Nothing. It was not like that on the day, there was no need for 6 loyalist flute bands marching down the streets. Next time, leave the loyalist flute bands at home and they are welcome to protest all they like.

junder wrote: »

If however other victems of republicans wanted to take part they would have been more then welcome. Do you know the flute bands that took part?

How would they be welcome to a sectarian march? They were loyalist flute bands from various parts of the north.
As well as what Pandcoa stated, Frazier has dodgy links to loyalist terrorists in that the PSNI denied him a permit to possess a gun as he was "associated with loyalist terrorist organisations". Frazier denied it and sought a judicial review - it was refused in 2004.
On Loyalist prisoners, he quipped - "They should never have been locked up in the first place,"!!

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

Nothing. It was not like that on the day, there was no need for 6 loyalist flute bands marching down the streets. Next time, leave the loyalist flute bands at home and they are welcome to protest all they like.

LOL. You think that would make a difference to the Celtic jersey wearing heroes?

Less bands, but lock up the Rabble?

Stones85

maybe it's just me...but is anyone else sick of these moronic NI threads? Don't get me wrong it's a subject of intense interest for me but some of the ****e posted up is unreal. Yes a UI will happen as long as people are dedicated to make it so and to keep the issue on the Irish conscience.

We're all different and have different opinions of this issue. I personally would be ashamed if we had a chance to re-unite and didn't take it, I couldn't give a tu'penny fck about the cost. This island is my COUNTRY, the sooner its re-united the better.

I understand a lot don't look at it that way, thats fine, who cares.

K-9

Stones85 wrote: »

I understand a lot don't look at it that way, thats fine, who cares.

They'll be voting in a Referendum on an United Ireland?

Stones85

K-9 wrote: »

They'll be voting in a Referendum on an United Ireland?

Seems the most obvious. Or are you asking another question?

K-9

Stones85 wrote: »

We're all different and have different opinions of this issue. I personally would be ashamed if we had a chance to re-unite and didn't take it, I couldn't give a tu'penny fck about the cost.

I'm more interested in the loss of lives ensuing, last week is just a little taster, not just the financial cost, which seems to be the focus on threads like this.

junder

gurramok wrote: »

Nothing. It was not like that on the day, there was no need for 6 loyalist flute bands marching down the streets. Next time, leave the loyalist flute bands at home and they are welcome to protest all they like.



How would they be welcome to a sectarian march? They were loyalist flute bands from various parts of the north.
As well as what Pandcoa stated, Frazier has dodgy links to loyalist terrorists in that the PSNI denied him a permit to possess a gun as he was "associated with loyalist terrorist organisations". Frazier denied it and sought a judicial review - it was refused in 2004.
On Loyalist prisoners, he quipped - "They should never have been locked up in the first place,"!!

as i have already said i am no fan of frazer. I am still waiting for an answer to my question about the flute bands, do you know which flute bands took part.

Erin Go Brath

Stones85 wrote: »

maybe it's just me...but is anyone else sick of these moronic NI threads? Don't get me wrong it's a subject of intense interest for me but some of the ****e posted up is unreal. Yes a UI will happen as long as people are dedicated to make it so and to keep the issue on the Irish conscience.

We're all different and have different opinions of this issue. I personally would be ashamed if we had a chance to re-unite and didn't take it, I couldn't give a tu'penny fck about the cost. This island is my COUNTRY, the sooner its re-united the better.

I understand a lot don't look at it that way, thats fine, who cares.

Well said, i agree completely with your analysis. A lot of the people who deny unification can happen love to source completely biased polls such as those state sponsored ones conducted by NILT who clearly have a vested interest in the retention of the 6 county state.

Election results in the 6 counties are the nearest guideline we have available. As people vote overwhelmingly along tribal lines in that jurisdiction it is a good indicator. The results have shown steady growth in the nationalist vote over the past few decades, and there is a lot to be optimistic about regarding the future chances of unity.

The majority of people in the 26 County area will not pass up the opportunity of unification should it arise. There will always be a few cranks against it. They are very much in a minority however and they won't be enough in number to stand in the way of Ireland finally becoming a nation once again.

gurramok

junder wrote: »

as i have already said i am no fan of frazer. I am still waiting for an answer to my question about the flute bands, do you know which flute bands took part.

And i'm still waiting for your answer from the other thread about what are the criteria to be allowed to join a flute band like that.

Can'tseeme

K-9 wrote: »

I'm more interested in the loss of lives ensuing, last week is just a little taster, not just the financial cost, which seems to be the focus on threads like this.

We've had loss of lives due to the island being partitioned. But what we've had over the last number of years is the disstruction of the orange state, equality for all in the north, the violence slowly disappearing and politicans across the political divide working together.

You talk about the financial cost. Surely in the long run, an end to the border would see Ireland work better? It's been said a few times in the thread about the damage the border does to the border counties, the duplication of public services and other bodies. Even Unionists agree the island could function a lot better working closer together.