will we ever see a 32 county republic

Fratton Fred

Can'tseeme wrote: »

We've had loss of lives due to the island being partitioned. But what we've had over the last number of years is the disstruction of the orange state, equality for all in the north, the violence slowly disappearing and politicans across the political divide working together.

You talk about the financial cost. Surely in the long run, an end to the border would see Ireland work better? It's been said a few times in the thread about the damage the border does to the border counties, the duplication of public services and other bodies. Even Unionists agree the island could function a lot better working closer together.

Surely that is an arguement to get rid of all borders, not just the Irish one.

I thought there was already a lot of cross border working and cooperation?

Can'tseeme

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Surely that is an arguement to get rid of all borders, not just the Irish one.

I thought there was already a lot of cross border working and cooperation?

If there's issues with other countries and there borders, that would be up to people of those countries to sort out. We're talking about the Irish border, a border were the majority of people on the island don't want. I answered a point on the cost of Unifying Ireland and how in the long term it would be more benefical for all the people of the island.

Infrastructure is planned on an all island basis, tourism Ireland, etc. But there's a lot more that could be done.

K-9

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Election results in the 6 counties are the nearest guideline we have available. As people vote overwhelmingly along tribal lines in that jurisdiction it is a good indicator.

In a General Election they do, I think a substantial section wouldn't in a Unification Referendum.

Erin Go Brath wrote:

The majority of people in the 26 County area will not pass up the opportunity of unification should it arise. There will always be a few cranks against it. They are very much in a minority however and they won't be enough in number to stand in the way of Ireland finally becoming a nation once again.

Will not be 20 years anyway, especially if the RIRA keep doing what they are doing.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

You talk about the financial cost. Surely in the long run, an end to the border would see Ireland work better? It's been said a few times in the thread about the damage the border does to the border counties, the duplication of public services and other bodies. Even Unionists agree the island could function a lot better working closer together.

Britain joining the Euro would be good too.

Funny you mention duplication of public services, that would mean getting rid of workers. I really don't know were we will get all this employment for NI Public Sector workers.

Unless the EU are going to help us out with unification, people will vote in their own economic interest.

Fratton Fred

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Infrastructure is planned on an all island basis, tourism Ireland, etc. But there's a lot more that could be done.

So where is the duplication? what can be done without a border that can't with one?

I'm genuinely interested because i have heard people say it many times but a lot seem to clam up when you ask them how it would work.

K-9 wrote: »

Britain joining the Euro would be good too.

I think that is the key to be honest. not just the euro, but the two countries getting closer to europe and closer to each other.

For example, what if there was an all Ireland car reg system with common fees, taxes etc. what if Ireland adopted the +44 international dialling code and making a call from Dublin to Belfast or Belfast to London or London to Dublin would all be internal rather than international. What if the taxation systems were unified so there was no advantage to working or living on either side of the border (Which I think will come about within the EU one day anyway). Who knows, one day there could be no difference to your normal way of llife whichever side of the border you lived on and eventually one day Ireland will become unified without anyone noticing.

ejmaztec

K-9 wrote: »

Unless the EU are going to help us out with unification, people will vote in their own economic interest.

I think Germany asked for assistance when its re-unification took place and they didn't get it. Perhaps they might expect the UK and Ireland to foot the bill.

Svalbard

What is Unionist Culture?

Can'tseeme

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So where is the duplication? what can be done without a border that can't with one?

I'm genuinely interested because i have heard people say it many times but a lot seem to clam up when you ask them how it would work.



I think that is the key to be honest. not just the euro, but the two countries getting closer to europe and closer to each other.

For example, what if there was an all Ireland car reg system with common fees, taxes etc. what if Ireland adopted the +44 international dialling code and making a call from Dublin to Belfast or Belfast to London or London to Dublin would all be internal rather than international. What if the taxation systems were unified so there was no advantage to working or living on either side of the border (Which I think will come about within the EU one day anyway). Who knows, one day there could be no difference to your normal way of llife whichever side of the border you lived on and eventually one day Ireland will become unified without anyone noticing.

There's duplication in government, education, health, envoirment, etc. N Ireland is such a small place, it would be more cost effective, with better sharing of resources to have one health service, one education system, etc.

Moving to unification isn't going to happen overnight. It'll will have to be a gradual process. The same taxation system, would help move towards a one island economy and then other areas could be developed towards singular bodies, services and sectors.

junder

Svalbard wrote: »

What is Unionist Culture?

What is republican culture?

Gruffalo

Can'tseeme wrote: »

There's duplication in government, education, health, envoirment, etc. N Ireland is such a small place, it would be more cost effective, with better sharing of resources to have one health service, one education system, etc.

Moving to unification isn't going to. happen overnight. It'll will have to be a gradual process. The same taxation system, would help move towards a one island economy and then other areas could be developed towards singular bodies, services and sectors.

Very well said. In fact if you were to name any public service, there will probably be duplication there, especially close to the border. In NI alone there is duplication, just so the UK can keep them in jobs. For example, there are at least 6 regional departments of agriculture in an area that small. Ridiculous.

However, the key thing to note, as also said by earlier posters, Unification should create a new Ireland, a better Ireland, as up there they do some things better than we do.

Gruffalo

junder wrote: »

What is republican culture?

That is a very good question Junder. I think it means something slightly different to each person, it is very much a personal thing.

To me, it is not only the pursuit of a United Ireland. It is the love of all things Irish, the languages (there are at least four), the music, traditions, way of life. And where you dont have a love for some aspect, strive for a tolerance or compromise.

K-9

Gruffalo wrote: »

Very well said. In fact if you were to name any public service, there will probably be duplication there, especially close to the border. In NI alone there is duplication, just so the UK can keep them in jobs. For example, there are at least 6 regional departments of agriculture in an area that small. Ridiculous.

However, the key thing to note, as also said by earlier posters, Unification should create a new Ireland, a better Ireland, as up there they do some things better than we do.

There is duplication in a 26 county and a 6 county jurisdiction.

Were does the duplication go? Suppose we could repeat the Health Boards into the HSE debacle.

We could just about afford it then, can't see it now, 32 county Ireland or not?

Anybody have estimates on Unemployment in a 32 County Ireland?

Gruffalo

K-9 wrote: »

There is duplication in a 26 county and a 6 county jurisdiction.

Were does the duplication go? Suppose we could repeat the Health Boards into the HSE debacle.

We could just about afford it then, can't see it now, 32 county Ireland or not?

Anybody have estimates on Unemployment in a 32 County Ireland?

Unification will not take place within the next 15 - 20 years, realistically speaking. The cross border bodies should be able to streamline public service, north and south of the imaginary line by then. Its not going to happen overnight, it is a gradual process.

Current unemployment numbers mean nothing to a united Ireland as we are currently in recession.

K-9

Gruffalo wrote: »

Current unemployment numbers mean nothing to a united Ireland as we are currently in recession.

Or a correction? The last 5/6 years was not a boom, it was a bubble. Ignore the last 5/6 years, well, except for the expenditure side.

It is very interesting to compare Increases in the Public sector in the South compared to the North, in the last 5/6 years.

Gruffalo

K-9 wrote: »

Or a correction? The last 5/6 years was not a boom, it was a bubble. Ignore the last 5/6 years, well, except for the expenditure side.

It is very interesting to compare Increases in the Public sector in the South compared to the North, in the last 5/6 years.

I would be happy to see a link if you have one, as that comparison would be interesting.

Correction? I think we are gone a little past that now. Definitely the last 5/6 years have been unrealistic.

All in all, while this recession will be painful, in many ways it could be one of the best things to happen the state (if we learn our lessons) as it will force us to reexamine how we vote, our taxation policies, public sector etc. etc.

junder

Gruffalo wrote: »

That is a very good question Junder. I think it means something slightly different to each person, it is very much a personal thing.

To me, it is not only the pursuit of a United Ireland. It is the love of all things Irish, the languages (there are at least four), the music, traditions, way of life. And where you dont have a love for some aspect, strive for a tolerance or compromise.

Is that all?

junder

Gruffalo wrote: »

Unification will not take place within the next 15 - 20 years, realistically speaking. The cross border bodies should be able to streamline public service, north and south of the imaginary line by then. Its not going to happen overnight, it is a gradual process.

Current unemployment numbers mean nothing to a united Ireland as we are currently in recession.

Does that mean you will be bringing in completely free health care for everybody in the RoI, since that is what we are used to in northern ireland. Moreover do you honestly think the demographics will be such that 70% of the population will vote for a united ireland

andrewh5

junder wrote: »

Does that mean you will be bringing in completely free health care for everybody in the RoI, since that is what we are used to in northern ireland. Moreover do you honestly think the demographics will be such that 70% of the population will vote for a united ireland

Both of the above are very valid points. The NHS may not be perfect but it is free to all at the point of use. Unlike here in ROI where people have to pay to see a gp and primary care effectively does not exist. I know which I prefer having experienced both and it is not the ROI healthcare system.

As to demographics. There will never be the utopian republican dream of a socialist 32 county republic. It is unachievable. Whether or not there will ever be reunification in some way remains to be seen, however the facts are that we cannot afford the north. It is hugely bureaucratic and has an enormous civil service. That is partly as a direct result of 35 years of the Troubles. That cannot be sustained and will require major surgery to make it affordable. NI is starting to stand on its own two feet but still relies very heavily on concessions from the UK treasury. It is being funded by GB taxpayers in reality.

junder

how will a all ireland nhs be paid for

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

how will a all ireland nhs be paid for

How is it paid for in the UK?

Deedsie

junder wrote: »

how will a all ireland nhs be paid for

Well Social welfare payments in the south are over €200, i thinks its £50 or £60 in the North.

We could start there...

The south had lost the run of itself during the Tiger years, i think eventually both sides of the border should be very similar price wise. Its happening already. People going North to shop has started to bring prices down in the south.

If the UK joined the Euro and changed there road signs to Kilometres you would barely notice the difference crossing the border

Was there talk of an All Ireland Communications Network? That would be very helpful too.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

How is it paid for in the UK?

the point is that IS already paid for, we have already have completely free health care, you don't, which lends the question if you can afford it now why don't you have free health care

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

how will a all ireland nhs be paid for

At first we would have to shoulder the debts ourselves using hand outs from the EU and the US:pac:.
The UK would have to maintain some type of subvention, its called 'war reparations'
Germany had to pay, so why shouldn't the UK?

But we would educate ye in our free universities.;)
Once ye had acquired a good education for free, we would use our Irish brogue, shamrocks and Guinness to attract investors from the States.:p

They would set up vast multinationals in the North and we would twist the EU's arm into providing funds for the reconstruction of the North.

We would re-invigorate places like H&W, building massive ships to export our guinness and shamrocks and high tech pharmaceuticals and computers.
Tourisim would help a lot too.

Then ye would be like us:
- working long hours, making money with no time to spend it
- being taxed through the bollix
- too busy working to worry about an orange parade or a riverdance

LordSutch

Rejoin the Commonwealth for a start ............

Seriously, this one small step (Big step)? might be the catalist needed to help unify the island.

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

the point is that IS already paid for, we have already have completely free health care, you don't, which lends the question if you can afford it now why don't you have free health care

Now DAT sur, is a blaady good khestion.

I tink muyself, tis dat tunderin feckin cow, bary marney

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

At first we would have to shoulder the debts ourselves using hand outs from the EU and the US:pac:.
The UK would have to maintain some type of subvention, its called 'war reparations'
Germany had to pay, so why shouldn't the UK?

But we would educate ye in our free universities.;)
Once ye had acquired a good education for free, we would use our Irish brogue, shamrocks and Guinness to attract investors from the States.:p

They would set up vast multinationals in the North and we would twist the EU's arm into providing funds for the reconstruction of the North.

We would re-invigorate places like H&W, building massive ships to export our guinness and shamrocks and high tech pharmaceuticals and computers.
Tourisim would help a lot too.

Then ye would be like us:
- working long hours, making money with no time to spend it
- being taxed through the bollix
- too busy working to worry about an orange parade or a riverdance

Last time i checked the 'war' as you call was perpertrated against northern ireland by republicans so i think its the RoI that owes war reperations :P

T runner

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Surely that is an arguement to get rid of all borders, not just the Irish one.

No, the Irish border divides an island the area of Scotland into 5/6 and 1/6.
This is non-sensical.

The main reason unionists argued for partition was more or less fear of being a minority in a pro-catholic state. That argument is no longer valid.

Apart from the initial financial and economic adjustment there is no other reason to have the border in the long term other than the threat of civil war.

andrewh5

Can'tseeme wrote: »

How is it paid for in the UK?

Through National Insurance payments deducted like PAYE. It funds the NHS, welfare & pensions.

junder

T runner wrote: »

No, the Irish border divides an island the area of Scotland into 5/6 and 1/6.
This is non-sensical.

The main reason unionists argued for partition was more or less fear of being a minority in a pro-catholic state. That argument is no longer valid.

Apart from the initial financial and economic adjustment there is no other reason to have the border in the long term other than the threat of civil war.

what ever the reasons for partition, fact is it created is created a new country and a new identy, our paths divided, the Irish identy that unionists used to have has been replaced by a northern irish identy that is distinct and sepperate from the culture you have in the RoI, aside from living on the same island we have very little in common apart the superficial. We the unionist population of northern ireland regard the RoI as forgein country period, we don't care about 'economic praticalitys' or whatever other arguments you try to use you are forgieners to us, you might as well ask us to join france or outer-monglia. You in the RoI need to get your heads round the fact that we are not confused irish men, or that you just need to get rid of the British government and we will fall into line. Unless you get your head round this fact then it will be impossiable to move on.

T runner

junder wrote: »

Last time i checked the 'war' as you call was perpertrated against northern ireland by republicans so i think its the RoI that owes war reperations :P

Thats complete self righteous rubbish.

In the troubles there were two wars. The sectarian war and the war between the IRA and the security forces.

The ROI did as much as anyone to stop it after the IRA had hijacked the peaceful Civil rights movement. This peaceful movement came after almost 50 years of sectarian supression by the stormont authorities on the catholic people. If you remember this peaceful movement was brutally put down by the pro-union authority and many catholic families found themselves under attack by pogrom.

The troubles could have been avoided after 1975 if Sinn Fein and the DUP had agreed to Sunningdale which is the agreement on the table now, more or less.

In the sectarian war which was largely perpetrated by Loyalists against the catholic community, random catholics were tortured and murdered for no other reason than their religion. This de-humanising attitude towards catholics can only be explained by severe bigotry ingrained at an early age.

I think everyone can take some blame for the wars but unionists must also take blame for the twisted sectarian society that existed by the late sixties by their hand.

If you are blaming the ROI for these wars you are indeed in the dark or may have been misinformed by your impartial advisors at home.

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

Last time i checked the 'war' as you call was perpertrated against northern ireland by republicans so i think its the RoI that owes war reperations :P

No, I was talking about the 400 year long one before that;):D