will we ever see a 32 county republic

Dub973

oscarBravo wrote: »

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. If you've nothing to contribute but IRA propaganda, don't bother.

I'll tell ya now that's fact not propoganda! The Brits offered the treaty because they were afraid we'd get the lot

Grudaire

Camelot wrote: »

I thought the term "Tiocfaidh ár lá" was mostly used by the provisional IRA?

Maybe i'm wrong?

That's true, I'm just saying that the sentiment behind it is true.

It's different for me though, for instance being from the IRA would be seen as a good thing (add a P, and it's not). I like the sentiment of the statement, not the use. The Republican movement has hijacked many things that are 'Irish', something that I especially disagree with.


Actually one question - Ulster Scots is it a language that people use, or what?

Richard

T runner wrote: »

(No comment on your previous strawman arguments?) Thats your convenient interpretation. I am saying his reasoning of being Ulster Scots and feeling as Irish as "an Outer Mongolian" appears to be flawed as his only connection to Scotland is a great Aunt which seems to be outnumbered by his many connections to Ireland. Peoples nationality and their interpretation of their nationality are vital to understanding the conflict in Ireland and are more than mere pedantics

The term "Ulster Scots" obviously refers to people of Scottish descent in Ulster. It should be noted here that the "Scoti" tribe were from North East Ireland. They travelled to what is now known as Scotland; in fact that's where the name Scotland comes from.

If someone is from the UK, they are British and if they're from the island of Ireland they are Irish but these definitions do not account for what people feel. Someone with a British passport may feel 0% British and 100% Irish. Someone else might feel 0% British and 100% Scottish. Neither would have any recognition of this in their passport. The difference is that the first person could get an Irish passport if they felt it helped the situation.

You see someone from NI saying they are 0% Irish, have nothing in common with someone from Donegal may be more than pedantics. It may give a clue to the symptoms or even the causes of some of the disagreement.

Somebody from Antrim clearly has a lot more in common with someone from Donegal than someone from "Outer Mongolia". Why would a person they have 0% in common? Is it because they really believe its true or is it because it may suit their political ideology for this "fact" to exist? I think its a fair enough question to ask dont you?




But you seem to think you are in charge of their nationality!

But surely someone with a UK passport are either Irish/ Northern Irish or British. No sorry mate, you are NOT Irish, dont be pedantic now, youre BRITISH!!!!!!

Can you answer me this? If I feel Irish but wish NI to remain in the UK and have a UK passport, then why cant my Irishness be reflected by my passport? Is this pedantics?



If there ever is a United Ireland then I am reasonably sure an Irish government would have to concede that citizens of Ireland are allowed call themselves British or Irish (under an Eire passport). Would you also consider this pedantics?

Again (and please dont ignore this time.) The most pre-eminent Unionist historian ATQ Stewart is of the opinion that every one in the Island of Ireland are Irish. He distinguishes British as people coming from Britain.
Have you any comment on this experts (and Unionsits) view of the nationality of people in NI? Stewart cited the example where people in Algeria felt compelled to call themselves French when it was ruled by France even though they were just "as Algerian as anyone else living in Algeria" (they were there for several generations.. Is this also pedantry?






I have never extended the concept of Britishness as a nationality beyond the borders of Britain. Again it is only your opinion that this is pedantry please allow me mine.

Are Indians British? Were they ever British? Being ruled by Britain does not make you British or am I missing something?

oscarBravo

Dub973 wrote: »

I'll tell ya now that's fact not propoganda!

You can state as a "fact" what would have happened had history taken a different course? Congratulations, you're the first person in history with that ability.

Or, more likely, you're throwing revisionist propaganda into a thread where it's barely relevant, if at all.

If you want to discuss the topic ("will we ever see...?" - note the future tense) in an intelligent fashion, feel free to do so. If not, stay out of it.

Dub973

oscarBravo wrote: »

You can state as a "fact" what would have happened had history taken a different course? Congratulations, you're the first person in history with that ability.

Or, more likely, you're throwing revisionist propaganda into a thread where it's barely relevant, if at all.

If you want to discuss the topic ("will we ever see...?" - note the future tense) in an intelligent fashion, feel free to do so. If not, stay out of it.

The widespread controversey over northern ireland exists because of the Brits. 13 people were shot dead on bogside on bloody Sunday by British troops for marching. The British were never punished for this. Explain why not?

I'll tell ya why,it's because it's the brits that used propaganda to make people beleive they were right so don't go saying we use propaganda

Dub973

Shane-1 wrote: »

Could be true, I think the truce was misguided at the time, the Dublin units were reporting that they were running out of supplies and could only maintain their campaign for another number of weeks, the situation was different down the country, for example Tom Barry stated that his unit were fit for another three years! The truce ended things for us, I dont know if we could have picked up the momentum again after the gap from truce and treaty, public feeling had changed, some volunteers had left the movement, and many of the leading members, including men such as Collins were now well known to the British, I think the truce was the defining moment

At least somebody can see sense,thanks!

Shane-1

Dub973 wrote: »

At least somebody can see sense,thanks!

haha, no bother!

I can see a point in it though, its something I've been thinking about recently, I do think the truce was an opportunity lost. When you read about some of the atrocities that the people of Ireland had to bear during the War of Independence you do start to think that the truce was a bad decision and the treaty a slap in the face. That treaty had us paying the pension of the RIC and the auxys and the tans, incredible really, our people agreed to pay a pension to these people who carried out some of the most disgusting acts imaginable in our land. And then the Free State recruited many of them into their army after! Our history is frankly bizarre at times.

Dub973

Shane-1 wrote: »

haha, no bother!

I can see a point in it though, its something I've been thinking about recently, I do think the truce was an opportunity lost. When you read about some of the atrocities that the people of Ireland had to bear during the War of Independence you do start to think that the truce was a bad decision and the treaty a slap in the face. That treaty had us paying the pension of the RIC and the auxys and the tans, incredible really, our people agreed to pay a pension to these people who carried out some of the most disgusting acts imaginable in our land. And then the Free State recruited many of them into their army after! Our history is frankly bizarre at times.

It is indeed!

And the treaty was a complete shambles! It was jumped on and looking back now we were inches short of the line and they definitely offered it because they were afraid

LordSutch

Richard wrote: »

If someone is from the UK, they are British and if they're from the island of Ireland they are Irish but these definitions do not account for what people feel.

If someone is from the UK, then they are from Scotland, N.Ireland, England or Wales, or in other words, (the UK), and if someone is from the Republic of Ireland, then they are obviously from outside the UK.

Northern Ireland shares the UK border with the ROI, and this is unique in the fact that 'NI' is the only region of the UK whereby you can actually choose your Nationality (British or Irish), ie Northern Nationalists have a choice!

Pretty cool, eh

Shane-1

Well in terms of a treaty it was more generous than anything we had ever been offered before, so clearly we had them some way shook!

I think our team over there may have been a bit politically naive, we couldnt match the Brits for turns and tricks! That brings up the debate then again about why Dev didnt go over, he could have more than matched them for political ability and trickery.

Grudaire

Surely heading off topic - Anyway I don't think that Collins etc would have accepted a treaty that was less then what they could have gotten.

Dub973

Shane-1 wrote: »

Well in terms of a treaty it was more generous than anything we had ever been offered before, so clearly we had them some way shook!

I think our team over there may have been a bit politically naive, we couldnt match the Brits for turns and tricks! That brings up the debate then again about why Dev didnt go over, he could have more than matched them for political ability and trickery.

I think at the end of the day dev beleived we couldnt get the 32 in the end,I think he lost fate! But dev aside,the pira could have done it for us,they had the Brits shook and scared

Shane-1

Collins wasnt a politician, plus he was one of the group that felt that the IRA at the time were on the backfoot, this was not the case around the country. Our lads couldnt match the British delegation for trickery, they tricked Arthur Griffith into making several naive comments regarding retaining the king as head of state (remembering Griffith was pretty much a monarchist) they seperated the more republican elements of our delegation Duffy and Barton) from the main debates, and then of course wouldnt let our lads bring the treaty to the Dail before accepting it.

No offense of course to them men, they were all great men, just perhaps out of their depth amongst all those wily Brits

Dannyboy83

Camelot wrote: »

If someone is from the UK, then they are from Scotland, N.Ireland, England or Wales, or in other words, (the UK), and if someone is from the Republic of Ireland, then they are obviously from outside the UK.

Northern Ireland shares the UK border with the ROI, and this is unique in the fact that 'NI' is the only region of the UK whereby you can actually choose your Nationality (British or Irish), ie Northern Nationalists have a choice!

Pretty cool, eh

Given that there are more Asians in London, than there are people in Ulster, I suspect you are wrong:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6921534.stm

But this topic has become totally pointless now anyway and is just sliding down the hypothetical toilet interspersed with sniping here and 1 upmanship there, on both sides and given that me and a few others are standing in the middle, its just getting boring.


YAAAWWWWWNNNNNN

Shane-1

Dub973 wrote: »

I think at the end of the day dev beleived we couldnt get the 32 in the end,I think he lost fate! But dev aside,the pira could have done it for us,they had the Brits shook and scared

Maybe, he could be a little too smart for his own good sometimes too. I have to admire aspects of Dev, there was absolutely no situation he couldnt find a way back from! Amazing politician no matter what else you might think about the man

Dannyboy83

And before we have anymore theory, the death of Michael Collins held this country back in the dark ages until 1959.

And it was us who shot him.
Not the British.


Lets all have a hug and a kiss and figure out how we can move FORWARD.

TALLY HO!!!

Shane-1

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And before we have anymore theory, the death of Michael Collins held this country back in the dark ages until 1959.

And it was us who shot him.
Not the British.


Lets all have a hug and a kiss and figure out how we can move FORWARD.

TALLY HO!!!

Haha, can we all hold hands while we move forward too

Dub973

Shane-1 wrote: »

Maybe, he could be a little too smart for his own good sometimes too. I have to admire aspects of Dev, there was absolutely no situation he couldnt find a way back from! Amazing politician no matter what else you might think about the man

don't get me wrong the man was a genious but also a gentleman. The only way we couldve gone on is using force. Dev in my opinion thought this was wrong. But still using the columns and the pira I beleive we could have got there without him

oscarBravo

Fine, let's not keep the thread on-topic.