will we ever see a 32 county republic

steve-collins

Given the events of the last couple of days i was just wondering and asking myself will we ever see a united ireland and if so one at peace . im just looking for peoples opinions from north and south of the border and if people even care. and if we do will we see more trouble starting up with loyalists going on the rampage . i for one think we will see it but only by peacefull political means and i think thats why mcguinness was so sickened by recent events .

Dannyboy83

There are provisions in the Good Friday Agreement for unification.
Basically they give it on a plate, with probably war reparations ("reconstruction funds") as well.

That'll only happen as long as we keep the gun out of NI politics.
They'll never *be seen* to submit to terrorisim and I wouldn't blame them.

On the other hand, what will we do when we finally join with the North?

Possible problems:

• Irish state bankrupt
• 1 million unemployed
• Unionist parties would control over 1/3 the vote in an all Ireland council
• Loyalist terrorisim campaign
• Cost of anti-terrorrisim for Irish Government

3greenrizla's

Over the last couple of months I have been developing this idea in my head...

The recession will continue , but we will be protected by being part of the €, England will be hit hard & will be looking to drop the money pit that is the six counties, the unionists will be appease themselves by saying they are just joining the bigger union (EU), and we will be singing "a nation once again" by 2016.

I don't know much about these things, & its just a thought....


Edit, I forgot to add, Dannyboy83 is right, can we really afford the six counties, no matter how much we want them.

Darlie

Has there ever been a united Ireland? History would suggest not. Is a united Ireland really what we want? Again, I think not. Even the die hard republicans, who's livelihood revolves around smuggling, would hate to see the border go!!

Sand

No, but on the bright side we will see hundreds if not thousands of threads titled "Will we ever see a united Ireland" or similar, which is almost as good.

pierrot

How about a 32 country USE

Soldie

What's the point of unification?

pierrot

It would ruin the country, both socially and economically. It would be a complete disaster for all involved in my opinion

johnnyboy4711

Not when you have what was going to be one of the last army bases to close in NI,being targeted at by people(in the broadest sense of the word) who are hell bent on an old and outdated methodology of murder and mayhem to try and achieve their goals!
All they are going to achieve is more soldiers and a higher police presence(like the dark old days) patrolling the streets.
maybe that is what they want as to have more targets?!?
Weird is the only word for it!
slan
J

ejmaztec

It will all seem like a bad dream when we're citizens of an Esperanto speaking Europa, although that might be another bad dream.

Mr.Micro

It would take a long time of tolerance and acceptance on all sides in NI before any union could take place IMO, we are not even close to that. Imagine for a minute if NI was under control now of the ROI and the loyalist community were unhappy and started trouble? How would Cowen an Co handle it and also keep the IRA dissidents in control? Impossible. So until all the violence ceases it will not happen.

eoinbn

No, it will never happen. The only long-term solution for the north is for them to government themselves.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

acontadino

pierrot wrote: »

How about a 32 country USE

yes

turgon

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Unionist parties would control over 1/3 the vote in an all Ireland council

How do you figure that?

They have about 60% in the North at the moment, which in itself is smaller than a third of the whole island. Id be impressed if they had a fifth.

mukki

why not split cork into cork and west cork that place is huge anyway


then the 26 and 32 counties arguements and songs will make no sense

mikemac

donegalfella wrote: »

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A federal system like Germany or Switzerland with their cantons?
It could work and it's not a new idea. I do know Michael Collins (let's not get offtopic) had a similar proposal but never came about obviously.

But first we need to kick Cork out

turgon

When thinking about a federal Ireland, I always though that autonomous counties were too small, and autonomous provinces too big.

But such a federal system would appeal to the unionists, at least three counties up there would be at their mercy.

mumhaabu

turgon wrote: »

How do you figure that?

They have about 60% in the North at the moment, which in itself is smaller than a third of the whole island. Id be impressed if they had a fifth.

It work wonders for the Irish Political landscape as you would have a new block of SF and Unionists meaning FF would likely remain out of office for a long time with a grand coalition of FG/DUP both similar type ideologies with Christian conservatism and right wing economics, and SF/LAB with the same Socialist mantra.

Now if we could just achieve this and move the Parliament to Athlone as the centre of the country and the courts of justice to Belfast then we would have an inclusive society. I'd have no problem paying higher taxes to support the North and the British government could also help, the main thing is that the Unionist majority of Northern Ireland be respected and shown the respect and courtesy they deserve, lets not forget that even during the troubles it was a small minority of both sides.

I consider the Unionists our brothers and they have as much right to be in the North as I have to be in the south, It is not their fault their greatx10 grand fathers were planted into NI by the British forces, respect and dignity is what is needed and the Irish government should do all in their power and make all resources available to help both Catholic and Unionists alike under the current situation and this may lead to a United Ireland eventually.

What is needed is for peace to last, give the democratic process a chance and slowly wean NI off the British taxpayers tit and over onto ours, we should have a greater say in the running (contributing) of their financial system. If Britain were to join the Euro this would help immensely however current trends are both Islands are moving away from the EU. Also Scottish independence calls are growing louder and the UK will eventually dissolve bring down the curtain on centuries of English empire.

We need to standardise things with NI and put special emphasis on growing their economy NI is home to nearly 2 million and with Unionist help and the political destruction of FF together we could build a new inclusive Ireland where social and economic freedom would be key elements with a close relationship with the UK and USA and gearing ourselves towards the anglophone world more and move away from the EU completely.

Permabear

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ArseBurger

Doubt the Irish social welfare system would be able to handle the influx...

Svalbard

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Possible problems:

• Irish state bankrupt
• 1 million unemployed
• Unionist parties would control over 1/3 the vote in an all Ireland council
• Loyalist terrorisim campaign
• Cost of anti-terrorrisim for Irish Government

Well I don't think anyone believes reunification in imminent! Your first 2 problems are recent events and will not last indefinitely. Reunification is many years away.

I agree with a subsequent poster that 1/3 is too big a number, but the Unionists would be in the political mix which would be a great thing, shake this side of the border out of its mono-theological, mono-political and mono-cultural homogeneity.

Loyalist terrorism affecting the entire island would be a very serious problem, but all states must face their "trial by fire" at some point.

eoinbn wrote: »

No, it will never happen. The only long-term solution for the north is for them to government themselves.

This is what I see happening:

1. Continued devolution, and the break up of the UK as we know it. NI is effectively cut-off from Britain. Not completely obviously, but the UK as we know it today will not exist and will be replaced with a looser coalition of 4 countries.

2. Increased co-operation between ROI and NI in social and economic affairs, culminating in closer political co-operation.

3. The creation of a new Ireland. Note this will not be the mere 'absorption' of NI into ROI, but the creation of an entirely new state.

mikemac wrote: »

A federal system like Germany or Switzerland with their cantons?

It could work, with NI being partners in an Irish federation prior to full statehood.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

A few problems with that:

1. Clare people will be up in arms over land being given to Limerick and Connaught. They don't like change, those Clare people!

2. Wexford gets a special red area, but Galway doesn't (Or Belfast or Derry!!) No chance. Wexford will clearly be a penal colony in the new order.

3. Oriel sounds totally gay. Make it New Bechuanaland.

What I want to see is not merely a bigger Republic, but an entirely new Ireland which is all inclusive, facing the future with courage and vision, and is not trapped in its past.

Dannyboy83

Svalbard,

Thanks for the comments, interesting stuff.

My first 2 points were not pre-existing conditions, but rather resultant problems of unity.
Its not necessarily entirely accurate of my personal point of view (for example, I don't believe the unionists would have such a large majority) but simply meant to stoke some interesting debate.

It would be fantastic to have unionists in government however.
We could move away from the old 'irish' reasons for voting, and aspire to reasonable things like 'a functioning health service' or 'a national broadband scheme'.
You can be sure they wouldn't tolerate the current Fianna Fail thieves.

There would probably be a colossal boost to tourisim for years as well.

And maybe they might even finally make a motorway from Cork to Belfast via Dublin.
I guess Cork to Dublin would be a good start tho

All exciting stuff!
========================================

Donegalfella,

I really like that proposal.
My only question would be, how are motorways etc. managed in a federal system such as your proposal?

Does the government take a federal tax?
Or are the regions responsible for maintenance themselves like councils etc?


===================================================================
And for anybody else reading, the next 5-7 years of high taxes paying for the FF bailout of Anglo will be a very good testing economic testing ground to see if Irish people REALLY want unity.
To have unity will hurt, in the short term.
Look at West and East Germany.

Dannyboy83

ArseBurger wrote: »

Doubt the Irish social welfare system would be able to handle the influx...

It already cannot handle the current strains.
Its in need of drastic reform.

As is everything in this country.

Apart from me, I'm fanfeckintastic

Bog Butter

When you say ‘we can not afford it’ or ‘it would only give us trouble’ you are not taking into account those in the north who consider themselves to part of the Irish nation. “It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.”

These people have been living in a state which only very recently has started to treat them on a par with their protestant neighbours. Yet even now they struggle to have their identity reflected in law e.g. the Irish language (Belfast has the highest amount of urban Irish speakers in Ireland). They live in a state created by and for a British people. If a day came when, under the terms of the GFA, the people of NI voted for a sovereign UI I could not say no; I would vote yes and welcome them in.

“The Secretary of State shall exercise the power under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.”

Of course if there was a yes vote in the north the transfer could not happen straight away. They would have to be a long transition period; perhaps even one of joint rule. This hand over period would ensure that we would eventually ‘afford’, so to speak, the north.

On the questions of whether it will happen at all that one day the people of the north voted yes, you would have to look at the growth of the Nationalist people. Many analysts are of the opinion that it is inevitable that they will become the majority. But is it inevitable that all those Nationalists would vote yes? That is the question.

For those who say that the people of NI should take their own path on their own with the creation of an independent NI then you are saying that the GFA should be discarded with. For the GFA agreement gives only two options for the future constitutional status of NI 1. Part of the UK or 2. part of a sovereign UI. Discarding the GFA would be unthinkable for peace (relative peace at least) is predicated on it staying in place.

Soldie

malman wrote: »

When you say ‘we can not afford it’ or ‘it would only give us trouble’ you are not taking into account those in the north who consider themselves to part of the Irish nation. “It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.”

They're welcome to come live in the Republic if they feel so strongly about it.

Dannyboy83

mikemac wrote: »

A federal system like Germany or Switzerland with their cantons?
It could work and it's not a new idea. I do know Michael Collins (let's not get offtopic) had a similar proposal but never came about obviously.

But first we need to kick Cork out

Treason.

Everyone knows the best thing about Ireland is Cork.
With Belfast on our side, we'd finally have enough people to stand up to the Jackeens and get the capital relocated to its rightful place.

We would build huge museums and universities in Belfast and make it an internationally recognised place of enlightenment.

Galway would be turned into a party city, where you are only go at the weekend for divilment and come Monday you must leave, it could be the Irish Amsterdam.

And lastly, A massive cage would have to be lowered on Limerick, it would be like a cross between Mad Max 3: Thunderdome & The Running Man. (starring Willie O'Dea as the host)
We could have the best television programs in the world and export it to the States and other blood thirsty countries to pay for our Romanesque indulgences.

We have a bright future ahead of us lads.
God bless Jack Lynch!

Svalbard

malman wrote: »

For those who say that the people of NI should take their own path on their own with the creation of an independent NI then you are saying that the GFA should be discarded with. For the GFA agreement gives only two options for the future constitutional status of NI 1. Part of the UK or 2. part of a sovereign UI. Discarding the GFA would be unthinkable for peace (relative peace at least) is predicated on it staying in place.

Wow, I must say I'm not au fait with the GFA. I knew it allowed for a democratic decision to unify but I didn't know it excluded an independent NI state.
I could see an independent NI state being a reality, but I also believe that such a state would ultimately see the advantage of a united Ireland.

Those people who disagree with unification because it would be troublesome and expensive are not wrong, but these are the immediate difficulties. Ultimately, generations after reunification i believe the advantages will be very clear.

Again I want to reiterate - a united Ireland is a new Ireland. It is not about the people of NI deciding to 'join' the Republic. It would be the people of NI deciding to create a new state with the republic. Both sides will have to fundamentally change how they view themselves and each other. The pople of the republic will have to realise that unity will mean the end of their state as they know it - what form a new state will take will be quite difficult to predict. That will be the greatest challenge.

Ultimately I believe that neither part of this island is truly fulfilled or realises its potential while partition remains.

Dannyboy83

malman wrote: »

If a day came when, under the terms of the GFA, the people of NI voted for a sovereign UI I could not say no; I would vote yes and welcome them in.

This whole thing is for discussion mate.

If your asking honestly, I voted Yes for the Nice treaty, my gf is Russian and my ex was Polish. It would be very bloody hypocritical of me to vote Yes for Europe and No for the North.

There would be no need to even worry about a point like that anyway.
There is unquestionable support in favour of Unity and it will always be like that, no matter if they detonated a dirty bomb in Dublin.

I think people are expecting that something amazing will happen on that day tho, such as Jesus descending to Earth on a cloud and congratulating us, or Bertie Ahern winning a few quid on a horse.

Svalbard

Soldie wrote: »

They're welcome to come live in the Republic if they feel so strongly about it.

You could equally say that those who call themselves British can go live in Britain, but either way that argument is boring and pointless.

Dannyboy83

Svalbard wrote: »

Again I want to reiterate - a united Ireland is a new Ireland. It is not about the people of NI deciding to 'join' the Republic. It would be the people of NI deciding to create a new state with the republic. Both sides will have to fundamentally change how they view themselves and each other. The pople of the republic will have to realise that unity will mean the end of their state as they know it - what form a new state will take will be quite difficult to predict. That will be the greatest challenge.

Ultimately I believe that neither part of this island is truly fulfilled or realises its potential while partion remains.

I agree very strongly with that.
We will have to from a new country and a new identity.

People will no longer accept liars and thieves such as Fianna Fail.
They will demand credibility and a certain amount of honesty.

Bog Butter

http://www.ihrc.ie/legal_documents/l1_goodfriday.asp

The GFA is a valuable document for Nationalists as it gives a possible route to a UI. This is why the DUP say the GFA is dead. If there was to a be a new set of rules replacing the GFA and a subsequent independant NI then it would mean a comprimise on the side of Unionism. Why would they comprimise though?

Bog Butter

http://www.ihrc.ie/legal_documents/l1_goodfriday.asp

CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES
1. The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that,
in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the
people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to
support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;

Soldie

Svalbard wrote: »

You could equally say that those who call themselves British can go live in Britain, but either way that argument is boring and pointless.

I can't see how that is relevant. He's (seletively) quoting from the constitution in an attempt to highlight the plight of the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland - those who wish to be part of the 'Irish nation'. I'm merely pointing out that those people are welcome to come here, even as Irish citizens, if they so wish - the 'Irish nation' being the republic.

Svalbard

Soldie wrote: »

I can't see how that is relevant. He's (seletively) quoting from the constitution in an attempt to highlight the plight of the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland - those who wish to be part of the 'Irish nation'. I'm merely pointing out that those people are welcome to come here, even as Irish citizens, if they so wish - the 'Irish nation' being the republic.

NI nationalists don't have to move to the republic to be considered Irish citizens or be part of the Irish nation. If they wish to identify themselves and their home in the 6 counties as part of the Irish nation then they can do so.

In the same way unionists can identify themselves as British and live in NI.

Soldie

Svalbard wrote: »

NI nationalists don't have to move to the republic to be considered Irish citizens or be part of the Irish nation. If they wish to identify themselves and their home in the 6 counties as part of the Irish nation then they can do so.

In the same way unionists can identify themselves as British and live in NI.

Of course, but that doesn't mean that our government is obliged to pander to them any further. Emotive pleas as to their 'Irishness' are rather unnecessary, the poster - malman - claimed that the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland have only started being treated with a degree of equality recently. Again, I'm merely pointing out that those people were and still are welcome as Irish citizens in the 'Irish nation' they wish to be part of, should they feel oppressed in their current residence.

Dannyboy83

Soldie wrote: »

Of course, but that doesn't mean that our government is obliged to pander to them any further. Emotive pleas as to their 'Irishness' are rather unnecessary, the poster - malman - claimed that the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland have only started being treated with a degree of equality recently. Again, I'm merely pointing out that those people were and still are welcome as Irish citizens in the 'Irish nation' they wish to be part of, should they feel oppressed in their current residence.

I think he mis-interpreted your comment as a 'tough luck' statement rather than the hospitality you were extending.

Dannyboy83

I want to ask a question and this is probably the best place for it rather than starting a new thread:

Do you honestly believe than when Llyod George & Winston Churchill threatened Arthur Griffith and Michael Collins with 'great and terrible war', were they really bluffing?

Considering the mounting political pressure from the US and the obvious bankruptcy of the British Empire, were they in the position to actually attack Ireland and what reaction would it have generated?

Bog Butter

Soldie wrote: »

Of course, but that doesn't mean that our government is obliged to pander to them any further. Emotive pleas as to their 'Irishness' are rather unnecessary, the poster - malman - claimed that the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland have only started being treated with a degree of equality recently. Again, I'm merely pointing out that those people were and still are welcome as Irish citizens in the 'Irish nation' they wish to be part of, should they feel oppressed in their current residence.

I just think that our partitionist mentality can be unhelpful. It creates a ‘them and us’ situation. We have to be mindful of the fact that when we give concessions to the north we are not merely ‘pandering’ to the likes of Gerry Adams. We are respecting the ordinary Nationalists people of the north. It is they who we are ‘pandering’ to. I don’t live in the north. Perhaps the majority of Nationalists are reasonable OK with the status quo. Part of the problem is that all we hear and see is the tribal bickering between the DUP and Sinn Fein. We know that the Nationalist political parties want a UI but do the people who would traditionally be called Nationalist want a UI. Perhaps not, perhaps there is a new Northern Irish identity transcending the old divide emerging. The true litmus test would be a vote in the north.

Darlie

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I want to ask a question and this is probably the best place for it rather than starting a new thread:

Do you honestly believe than when Llyod George & Winston Churchill threatened Arthur Griffith and Michael Collins with 'great and terrible war', were they really bluffing?

Considering the mounting political pressure from the US and the obvious bankruptcy of the British Empire, were they in the position to actually attack Ireland and what reaction would it have generated?

I reckon that they were bluffing. Whats more I also reckon that Griffith and Collins knew they were bluffing! The next step, militarily, for the Irish at that time was independent from treaty outcome. By signing, it bought them an extra element of trust with Britain, which would have made the next offensive more successful. However that was all scuppered by the most pointless civil war in history.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Lol at this thread

- The Brits pay a £4 billion subvention to the North every year. The amount of Nordies on the dole is shocking, something like 60% of GDP is govt expenditure
- There's a million Unionists in the North and seeing as they withstood terror attacks for 30 years which only made them stronger, I don't think they'd accept it lying down
- Could you imagine Dublin dealing with violent Loyalists?! The British army, M15/M16, SAS and very competent RUC police officers couldn't contain terrorism from the minority, can you imagine the Gardai and Irish army (lol) trying to contain terrorism from the majority population.

getz

georgiecasey wrote: »

Lol at this thread

- The Brits pay a £4 billion subvention to the North every year. The amount of Nordies on the dole is shocking, something like 60% of GDP is govt expenditure
- There's a million Unionists in the North and seeing as they withstood terror attacks for 30 years which only made them stronger, I don't think they'd accept it lying down
- Could you imagine Dublin dealing with violent Loyalists?! The British army, M15/M16, SAS and very competent RUC police officers couldn't contain terrorism from the minority, can you imagine the Gardai and Irish army (lol) trying to contain terrorism from the majority population.

the problem as i see it, is that the only way forward for a united ireland is to make a new country ,new constitution [no one religion ] different flag and anthem kick religion out of schools and join the commonwealth

jim o doom

steve-collins wrote: »

will we ever see a united ireland

hopefully not.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

getz wrote: »

the problem as i see it, is that the only way forward for a united ireland is to make a new country ,new constitution [no one religion ] different flag and anthem kick religion out of schools and join the commonwealth

I was just throwing out reasons why it will never happen, don't really care much either way. Would if affect my life much? No, apart from higher taxes probably

jimmmy

pierrot wrote: »

It would ruin the country, both socially and economically. It would be a complete disaster for all involved in my opinion

True...plus everyone would have to get the ferry to Wales or Scotland to do their food shopping with our borrowed money, instead of heading to the north.

JimiTime

For me the question is Why would a)Someone from the republic want it? and b)Someone from the North want it?

I think its more just a silly romantic notion these days rather than something with any substance. The days of Cromwell are gone, and the days of Catholic apartheid too. So now its just a silly pursuit IMO. They have devolution and a cross community government. They should be just looking after the state and its people and forget about the old romantic songs etc. They have real potential there for a state that works well for all parties, best not throw it away.

turgon

The question is "will we ever see a 32 County Republic". This could as easily be phrased "will we ever see a catholic majority in NI". Will we?

As regards potential federal states each province divided in two except Connaught and maybe Dublin and Belfast independent. And no gay names like "oriel" or "the princess' kingdom". Im looking at you donegalfella.

Dannyboy83

turgon wrote: »

The question is "will we ever see a 32 County Republic". This could as easily be phrased "will we ever see a catholic majority in NI". Will we?

As regards potential federal states each province divided in two except Connaught and maybe Dublin and Belfast independent. And no gay names like "oriel" or "the princess' kingdom". Im looking at you donegalfella.

That would probably be quite wise.
Can we still airlift a massive cage onto Limerick tho?

villager

Will we ever see a 32 county republic:

please god no no no no no no would gladly give them another couple of counties too if they want. starting with dublin & cork.

ionix5891

villager wrote: »

Will we ever see a 32 county republic:

please god no no no no no no would gladly give them another couple of counties too if they want. starting with dublin & cork.

i still don't understand why we need them counties?

economically that would mean taking on even more public workers and increasing the welfare state, theres no strategic natural resources up there i see that can be exploited either

politically it would mean getting a alot of political baggage attached with a clip

sociologically it would mean integrating a society that sees itself as neither British nor Irish

why oh why do we need the 6 counties? we need to look after ourselves first!

so far every reason i heard was nationalistic or historical and imho thats just complete rubbish

junder

the short answer is no we won't see a 32 county ireland in our life times, Sinn Feins idea that reunification will happen when 50% + 1 vote for it is complete lunacy, even if demographics do work in their favour (and that in itself is a big if) you will still be lumbered with a sizable dis-infrancised unionist community who want no part of this 32 county country, the result is unlikly to be peaceful. The reality is that in order for a peaceful (or atleast a managable) intergration of northern ireland into the ROI you are going to need atleast a 70% majorty in favour of the intergartion of Northern ireland into the RoI and that is not likly to happen for a several lifetimes