will we ever see a 32 county republic

Bog Butter

http://www.ihrc.ie/legal_documents/l1_goodfriday.asp

The GFA is a valuable document for Nationalists as it gives a possible route to a UI. This is why the DUP say the GFA is dead. If there was to a be a new set of rules replacing the GFA and a subsequent independant NI then it would mean a comprimise on the side of Unionism. Why would they comprimise though?

Bog Butter

http://www.ihrc.ie/legal_documents/l1_goodfriday.asp

CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES
1. The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that,
in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the
people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to
support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;

Soldie

Svalbard wrote: »

You could equally say that those who call themselves British can go live in Britain, but either way that argument is boring and pointless.

I can't see how that is relevant. He's (seletively) quoting from the constitution in an attempt to highlight the plight of the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland - those who wish to be part of the 'Irish nation'. I'm merely pointing out that those people are welcome to come here, even as Irish citizens, if they so wish - the 'Irish nation' being the republic.

Svalbard

Soldie wrote: »

I can't see how that is relevant. He's (seletively) quoting from the constitution in an attempt to highlight the plight of the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland - those who wish to be part of the 'Irish nation'. I'm merely pointing out that those people are welcome to come here, even as Irish citizens, if they so wish - the 'Irish nation' being the republic.

NI nationalists don't have to move to the republic to be considered Irish citizens or be part of the Irish nation. If they wish to identify themselves and their home in the 6 counties as part of the Irish nation then they can do so.

In the same way unionists can identify themselves as British and live in NI.

Soldie

Svalbard wrote: »

NI nationalists don't have to move to the republic to be considered Irish citizens or be part of the Irish nation. If they wish to identify themselves and their home in the 6 counties as part of the Irish nation then they can do so.

In the same way unionists can identify themselves as British and live in NI.

Of course, but that doesn't mean that our government is obliged to pander to them any further. Emotive pleas as to their 'Irishness' are rather unnecessary, the poster - malman - claimed that the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland have only started being treated with a degree of equality recently. Again, I'm merely pointing out that those people were and still are welcome as Irish citizens in the 'Irish nation' they wish to be part of, should they feel oppressed in their current residence.

Dannyboy83

Soldie wrote: »

Of course, but that doesn't mean that our government is obliged to pander to them any further. Emotive pleas as to their 'Irishness' are rather unnecessary, the poster - malman - claimed that the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland have only started being treated with a degree of equality recently. Again, I'm merely pointing out that those people were and still are welcome as Irish citizens in the 'Irish nation' they wish to be part of, should they feel oppressed in their current residence.

I think he mis-interpreted your comment as a 'tough luck' statement rather than the hospitality you were extending.

Dannyboy83

I want to ask a question and this is probably the best place for it rather than starting a new thread:

Do you honestly believe than when Llyod George & Winston Churchill threatened Arthur Griffith and Michael Collins with 'great and terrible war', were they really bluffing?

Considering the mounting political pressure from the US and the obvious bankruptcy of the British Empire, were they in the position to actually attack Ireland and what reaction would it have generated?

Bog Butter

Soldie wrote: »

Of course, but that doesn't mean that our government is obliged to pander to them any further. Emotive pleas as to their 'Irishness' are rather unnecessary, the poster - malman - claimed that the 'Irish' in Northern Ireland have only started being treated with a degree of equality recently. Again, I'm merely pointing out that those people were and still are welcome as Irish citizens in the 'Irish nation' they wish to be part of, should they feel oppressed in their current residence.

I just think that our partitionist mentality can be unhelpful. It creates a ‘them and us’ situation. We have to be mindful of the fact that when we give concessions to the north we are not merely ‘pandering’ to the likes of Gerry Adams. We are respecting the ordinary Nationalists people of the north. It is they who we are ‘pandering’ to. I don’t live in the north. Perhaps the majority of Nationalists are reasonable OK with the status quo. Part of the problem is that all we hear and see is the tribal bickering between the DUP and Sinn Fein. We know that the Nationalist political parties want a UI but do the people who would traditionally be called Nationalist want a UI. Perhaps not, perhaps there is a new Northern Irish identity transcending the old divide emerging. The true litmus test would be a vote in the north.

Darlie

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I want to ask a question and this is probably the best place for it rather than starting a new thread:

Do you honestly believe than when Llyod George & Winston Churchill threatened Arthur Griffith and Michael Collins with 'great and terrible war', were they really bluffing?

Considering the mounting political pressure from the US and the obvious bankruptcy of the British Empire, were they in the position to actually attack Ireland and what reaction would it have generated?

I reckon that they were bluffing. Whats more I also reckon that Griffith and Collins knew they were bluffing! The next step, militarily, for the Irish at that time was independent from treaty outcome. By signing, it bought them an extra element of trust with Britain, which would have made the next offensive more successful. However that was all scuppered by the most pointless civil war in history.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Lol at this thread

- The Brits pay a £4 billion subvention to the North every year. The amount of Nordies on the dole is shocking, something like 60% of GDP is govt expenditure
- There's a million Unionists in the North and seeing as they withstood terror attacks for 30 years which only made them stronger, I don't think they'd accept it lying down
- Could you imagine Dublin dealing with violent Loyalists?! The British army, M15/M16, SAS and very competent RUC police officers couldn't contain terrorism from the minority, can you imagine the Gardai and Irish army (lol) trying to contain terrorism from the majority population.

getz

georgiecasey wrote: »

Lol at this thread

- The Brits pay a £4 billion subvention to the North every year. The amount of Nordies on the dole is shocking, something like 60% of GDP is govt expenditure
- There's a million Unionists in the North and seeing as they withstood terror attacks for 30 years which only made them stronger, I don't think they'd accept it lying down
- Could you imagine Dublin dealing with violent Loyalists?! The British army, M15/M16, SAS and very competent RUC police officers couldn't contain terrorism from the minority, can you imagine the Gardai and Irish army (lol) trying to contain terrorism from the majority population.

the problem as i see it, is that the only way forward for a united ireland is to make a new country ,new constitution [no one religion ] different flag and anthem kick religion out of schools and join the commonwealth

jim o doom

steve-collins wrote: »

will we ever see a united ireland

hopefully not.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

getz wrote: »

the problem as i see it, is that the only way forward for a united ireland is to make a new country ,new constitution [no one religion ] different flag and anthem kick religion out of schools and join the commonwealth

I was just throwing out reasons why it will never happen, don't really care much either way. Would if affect my life much? No, apart from higher taxes probably

jimmmy

pierrot wrote: »

It would ruin the country, both socially and economically. It would be a complete disaster for all involved in my opinion

True...plus everyone would have to get the ferry to Wales or Scotland to do their food shopping with our borrowed money, instead of heading to the north.

JimiTime

For me the question is Why would a)Someone from the republic want it? and b)Someone from the North want it?

I think its more just a silly romantic notion these days rather than something with any substance. The days of Cromwell are gone, and the days of Catholic apartheid too. So now its just a silly pursuit IMO. They have devolution and a cross community government. They should be just looking after the state and its people and forget about the old romantic songs etc. They have real potential there for a state that works well for all parties, best not throw it away.

turgon

The question is "will we ever see a 32 County Republic". This could as easily be phrased "will we ever see a catholic majority in NI". Will we?

As regards potential federal states each province divided in two except Connaught and maybe Dublin and Belfast independent. And no gay names like "oriel" or "the princess' kingdom". Im looking at you donegalfella.

Dannyboy83

turgon wrote: »

The question is "will we ever see a 32 County Republic". This could as easily be phrased "will we ever see a catholic majority in NI". Will we?

As regards potential federal states each province divided in two except Connaught and maybe Dublin and Belfast independent. And no gay names like "oriel" or "the princess' kingdom". Im looking at you donegalfella.

That would probably be quite wise.
Can we still airlift a massive cage onto Limerick tho?

villager

Will we ever see a 32 county republic:

please god no no no no no no would gladly give them another couple of counties too if they want. starting with dublin & cork.

ionix5891

villager wrote: »

Will we ever see a 32 county republic:

please god no no no no no no would gladly give them another couple of counties too if they want. starting with dublin & cork.

i still don't understand why we need them counties?

economically that would mean taking on even more public workers and increasing the welfare state, theres no strategic natural resources up there i see that can be exploited either

politically it would mean getting a alot of political baggage attached with a clip

sociologically it would mean integrating a society that sees itself as neither British nor Irish

why oh why do we need the 6 counties? we need to look after ourselves first!

so far every reason i heard was nationalistic or historical and imho thats just complete rubbish

junder

the short answer is no we won't see a 32 county ireland in our life times, Sinn Feins idea that reunification will happen when 50% + 1 vote for it is complete lunacy, even if demographics do work in their favour (and that in itself is a big if) you will still be lumbered with a sizable dis-infrancised unionist community who want no part of this 32 county country, the result is unlikly to be peaceful. The reality is that in order for a peaceful (or atleast a managable) intergration of northern ireland into the ROI you are going to need atleast a 70% majorty in favour of the intergartion of Northern ireland into the RoI and that is not likly to happen for a several lifetimes

Can'tseeme

Will it happen? Without doubt. I've lived in Belfast all my life. I never thought I'd see the day were Republican's and the DUP would be working together in government, I'd never thought we'd see an end to the RUC in the north. I see no reason why, in the long term this couldn't happen. I think the GFA supports away for it to happen, if the people want it. Which all the parties in the north have signed up to.

First of all, Britian doesn't want to remain funding the north. Peter Brooke confirmed this back in 1990:

"Britain had no "selfish strategic or economic interest" in Northern Ireland and would accept unification, if the people wished it. It is not the aspiration to a sovereign, united Ireland against which we set our face, but its violent expression."

2nd point, economically it makes more sense to get rid of the border. Than to have it continue to restrict the Irish economy. It would open up cost effective singular bodies across the island, infrastructure is already on an all Ireland basis.

3rd point, what about unionism? Any All Ireland would have to be a new Ireland, working in partnership in Britian and having full representaton of all communities. It's about trying to convince people of a new way forward. Unionism has a 2% influence in London. In Ireland they would have a 20% political influence. That will open up a huge political influence for them for the people they represent. They would have proper governmental influence in decisons like taxation, civil liberties, etc. Instead of being continuously told how to live their lives by British Labour or Tory parites, without having their hands on real governmental power.

Ireland is a small country with a small population. For me it makes far more sense, were the four provinces work together, for the benefit of everyone on the island and were all cultures, creeds, colours are respected. I think if this was to happen, with the amount of political good will outside of Ireland ( Britian, US and EU), we would grow to be an economically strong and great country to live in.

junder

you can argue all you like about practicalitys but it is of no interest to us, we do not want to be part of a united ireland because we do not see ourselves as irish, courtsey of sinn fein we see irishness, catholisim and republicanism interlinked with each other and excluding us, even on this site i see references to unionists being an alien presence on this island, and of course lets no forget the Loveulster parade in Dublin, a goldern propoganda oppurtunity to destroy the unionist myths about being unwelcome in the RoI ended up in us being chased out of dublin by a baying mob.

ionix5891

junder wrote: »

you can argue all you like about practicalitys but it is of no interest to us, we do not want to be part of a united ireland because we do not see ourselves as irish, courtsey of sinn fein we see irishness, catholisim and republicanism interlinked with each other and excluding us, even on this site i see references to unionists being an alien presence on this island, and of course lets no forget the Loveulster parade in Dublin, a goldern propoganda oppurtunity to destroy the unionist myths about being unwelcome in the RoI ended up in us being chased out of dublin by a baying mob.

its ok majority of us are happy with the way things are and as I said i dont see what is the point of the 6 counties joining the republic.

ignore the vocal minority on this site who think nationalism, patriotism etc are an excuse for murdering people or joining their counties to another country against their will

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

you can argue all you like about practicalitys but it is of no interest to us, we do not want to be part of a united ireland because we do not see ourselves as irish, courtsey of sinn fein we see irishness, catholisim and republicanism interlinked with each other and excluding us, even on this site i see references to unionists being an alien presence on this island, and of course lets no forget the Loveulster parade in Dublin, a goldern propoganda oppurtunity to destroy the unionist myths about being unwelcome in the RoI ended up in us being chased out of dublin by a baying mob.

Mate, it's early days in the peace process in the north, the insitiutions are only settling down and it going to take time. We're learning more and more about each others culture, political opinion and reason for the fear, hurt and anger that has been caused on all sides. Unionist Irishness is as important in Ireland as any other form of irishness. In regards to Sinn Fein, it isn't a catholic party. There are political members from a Protestant background. Billy Leonard MLA, was a former RUC reserve constable.

ArthurGuinness

[/quote]ignore the vocal minority on this site who think nationalism, patriotism etc are an excuse for murdering people or joining their counties to another country against their will[/quote]

How did Ulster become part of the UK again?

In my opinion I want to see a united Ireland I dont see murder as an excuse for that and I dont want to see anybody die! Although its funny how everyone can forget about the millions of Irish people murdered over the yrs over by the British and you can say ah thats all in days past yet they are still doing it in Iraq and Afghanistan. Whats the difference!

ionix5891

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

ignore the vocal minority on this site who think nationalism, patriotism etc are an excuse for murdering people or joining their counties to another country against their will

How did Ulster become part of the UK again?

In my opinion I want to see a united Ireland I dont see murder as an excuse for that and I dont want to see anybody die! Although its funny how everyone can forget about the millions of Irish people murdered over the yrs over by the British and you can say ah thats all in days past yet they are still doing it in Iraq and Afghanistan. Whats the difference!

ah yes a historic reason, its ok dont have hissy fit and you managed to drag Iraq into this brilliant!

thats the same line of thinking that will never solve the Israeli/Palestine conflict

still waiting on practical reasons on why we would want unification

Svalbard

junder wrote: »

you can argue all you like about practicalitys but it is of no interest to us, we do not want to be part of a united ireland because we do not see ourselves as irish, courtsey of sinn fein we see irishness, catholisim and republicanism interlinked with each other and excluding us, even on this site i see references to unionists being an alien presence on this island, and of course lets no forget the Loveulster parade in Dublin, a goldern propoganda oppurtunity to destroy the unionist myths about being unwelcome in the RoI ended up in us being chased out of dublin by a baying mob.

Granted many people in NI want nothing to do with Ireland and see Irishness as something to despise and define oneself against. 88 years of partition & sectarianism has made sure of that.
But in the grand scheme of things 88 years is not very long. Who knows how society in NI will have changed in another 88 or 100 years.

I have no problem with anyone calling themselves Irish, British or Klingon if that's what they want, but I can't help but feel it must take a lot of effort to define yourself by what you are not and exist in a sort of limbo.

As for the LoveUlster parade, in fairness those marchers were attacked by skangers, not exactly surprising, and certainly not representative of people in the south. By all means march again, but maybe this time avoid O'Connel Street or anywhere else there are loose bricks lying around.

Svalbard

ionix5891 wrote: »

the vocal minority on this site who think nationalism, patriotism etc are an excuse for murdering people or joining their counties to another country against their will

Please name names Ionix5891, this is a serious accusation.

Johnboy Mac

No 32 counties in my life time, not a hope in hell. Why would the people of Northern Ireland want to join with a Banana Republic? They always suspected that we could'nt run a country correctly and we have proved them 100% correct or our Governments have.

stepbar

I think most Irish people would like to aspire to a 32 county republic but TBH I can't see it happening in my lifetime. There's still too much hurt and resentment to make it happen.