TV's with MPEG4 DTT decoder

STB

Machinehead wrote: »

Thanks for your response STB. What I still can't make out is the D25 compliant for the 0x16 and 0x19 service types? Are any of these now being used by RTÉNL? I can view all the channels now being shown on Saorview.

There is no reason it wouldnt be compliant. The D25L is actually an Irish model and must have the full list of descriptors defined under ETSI (ETSI EN 300 468).

It is the initial Freesat Combos that had the problems - these are the ones with Freesat HD and a dvb-t tuner (specific models LZD81 series, PZ81 series, G10s G15s). This is because they did not use European standards - they used UK Dbook which are a watered down version to suit their own use - they only had an MPEG2 SD service on DVB-T at the time and didnt define anything else other than that for TV services in their firmware. A simple fix, but they have been reluctant to include the extra few lines of descriptors.

Your D25L is not built to Dbook standard but is rather built to ETSI EN300 468 which will have all these service codes defined in the firmware (I have bolded the 3 types that have and will cause the confusion)

Infact the Panasonic TX-L42D25 (without the L - ie the new Freesat HD/Freeview HD range) shouldnt have problems either as for the Freeview HD should now be compliant with ETSI EN300 468 because they use MPEG4 HD codecs with the dvb-t2 tuner and it should be defined in the firmware as a result). It should automatically do this for a dvb-t service but I dont have access to what standards they used for their construction.


Table 81: Service type coding
service_type Description
0x00 reserved for future use
0x01 digital television service (see note 1)
0x02 digital radio sound service (see note 2)
0x03 Teletext service
0x04 NVOD reference service (see note 1)
0x05 NVOD time-shifted service (see note 1)
0x06 mosaic service
0x07 FM radio service
0x08 DVB SRM service [49]
0x09 reserved for future use
0x0A advanced codec digital radio sound service
0x0B advanced codec mosaic service
0x0C data broadcast service
0x0D reserved for Common Interface Usage (EN 50221 [37])
0x0E RCS Map (see EN 301 790 [7])
0x0F RCS FLS (see EN 301 790 [7])
0x10 DVB MHP service
0x11 MPEG-2 HD digital television service
0x12 to 0x15 reserved for future use
0x16 advanced codec SD digital television service
0x17 advanced codec SD NVOD time-shifted service
0x18 advanced codec SD NVOD reference service
0x19 advanced codec HD digital television service
0x1A advanced codec HD NVOD time-shifted service
0x1B advanced codec HD NVOD reference service
0x1C to 0x7F reserved for future use
0x80 to 0xFE user defined
0xFF reserved for future use
NOTE 1: MPEG-2 SD material should use this type.
NOTE 2: MPEG-1 Layer 2 audio material should use this type.

At present RTE are using 0x01. This is reserved for MPEG2 SD stations (like Freeview in the UK) We are broadcasting in MPEG4 SD and technically shouldn't be tagging as such. As a result this hasnt been an issue for those with the UK DBook Freesat combo TVs. But it will be should they switch it back.

They have in the past used 0x16.

They will use 0x16 and 0x19 in the near future and discard 0x01 for sure.

Bet you are sorry you answered the question now! Apologies to anyone else whose head is melted with this information.

Machinehead

Thanks STB, a fountain of knowledge as per usual. Last point - are the D25E & the Ireland D25L basically one in the same then?

STB

Machinehead wrote: »

Thanks STB, a fountain of knowledge as per usual. Last point - are the D25E & the Ireland D25L basically one in the same then?

Well after much research it now appears that the "L" range is for Ireland. The "E" is the EU model. There should be no distinction.

I wonder what the distinction is though........you have me interested.

Why not ask Panasonic. Whilst also asking them how they will be enabling MHEG5 for your brand new TV ? Again point them to the 2008 published spec.

On further reading of the spec for the L

Contrast Automatic Tracking System / ** Based on IEC 62087 Ed.2 measurement method.

/ ***Notice for DVB functions: / This TV is designed to meet the standards (current as of August, 2009) of DVB-T/C/S/S2 (MPEG2 and MPEG4-AVC [H.264]) services. / The compatibility with future DVB services is not guaranteed. / DVB-T MPEG4-AVC broadcast is available in selected countries: Denmark, Spain, Estonia, France, Lithuania, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Portugal. / DVB-C feature is available only in following countries: / Sweden (ComHem, Canal Digital), Demark (YouSee), Norway (Canal Digital), Finland (Cable Ready HD), Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands / The country list above is as of January 1st, 2010. / Check the latest information on the available services at the following website (English only): / http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/tv/

NO mention of Ireland! They better not hide behind the operational service. Its been on since 2008 on a test basis. The standard for Ireland was set in February 2008 and finalised in December 2008! Both were also published. Jeez do the manufacturers not have a logged standard for Ireland ???? And I am talking about mandatory inclusion of MHEG5 here!

peking97

STB wrote: »

DVB-T MPEG4-AVC broadcast is available in selected countries: Denmark, Spain, Estonia, France, Lithuania, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Portugal. [/U]

Do you happen to know if any of the countries listed use MHEG5 middleware?

I ask because I have a TX-PF37X10 which I bought from Pixmania in June '09. I currently have the country setting set to France and I receive the DTT trials fine except the text is just the old analogue style text. I imagine I could change the country setting and try for MHEG5 text if any of the above are using it. I'd rather not lose all my customisations if someone already knows these countries don't use MHEG5. Appreciate all the info.

Sponge Bob

peking97 wrote: »

Do you happen to know if any of the countries listed use MHEG5 middleware?

Ireland and UK only ( and Hong Kong and New Zealand too I think). We have long recommended French "TNT HD" compliant gear around here which does everything bar the fancy teletext which is what MHEG5 mainly is .

watty

It is used by Freeview and Freesat in the UK, Freeview in New Zealand, TVB in Hong Kong, Freeview in Australia, and has been specified in Ireland, and South Africa.

MHEG-5 has been selected as the mandatory interactivity engine for CI+ compliant TVs (and other CI+ devices).
The MHEG-5 language itself is just that, a language. To be useful in any particular context, the language needs to be profiled. A broadcast profile of the language has been standardized by ETSI forming ETSI standard ES 202 184.

So no, none of those use MHEG5.

It does a lot more (potentially) than simply pretty text. "mainly" is the important word.

The only real viable alternative is MHP. But given Freesat already, Southeast and Borders Freeview reception and Irish Digital in N.I. via DTT & Sat, it would have been perverse to NOT use MHEG5, which is free anyway. (MHP is royalty).

UPC in Netherlands using Mediahighway (NDS) and Sky uses Open TV (which isn't and is NDS/Thomson)


Using a French "TNT HD" box or TV was OK for early adopters and hugely more sensible than Sagem Picnic or Neotion cards. But makes no sense now that UK "Freeview HD" is starting to be widely available at a reasonable price.

Though today there is only the overpriced €100 Walker Setbox and some Walker TVs (Vestel), there will be much more.

Analogue switch off is 2 years away
Full launch about 5 or 6 months.

At present there are a small number of SAORVIEW approved STBs or iDTVs, see below. Others are currently going through the testing process.
In the lead up to the full launch of SAORVIEW in spring 2011 there will be a wider range of approved receivers available from retailers and TV installers across the country.

via http://rtenl.ie/dtt.htm

The Cush

peking97 wrote: »

Do you happen to know if any of the countries listed use MHEG5 middleware?

Ireland and the UK are the only european countries to do MHEG-5.

Outside Europe - New Zealand, Australia, Hong Kong, South Africa, India (cable)

Testing in Malaysia and Turkey.

http://www.impala.org/deployments

STB

Watty, The Cush etc - this is nothing to do with Saorview certification. This is to do with following compliance with basic country broadcasting standards.

The point is that a TV that was released on the market in January 2010 does not comply with our spec published in 2008.

Why doesnt it ? They do not seem to be aware of the published spec for Ireland. How many other manufacturers are releasing products that do not comply with our published spec. And why.

Machinehead has a very good case for demanding MHEG5 as it is mandatory.

TX-L42D25L

VIERA Full HD LED LCD TV (Ireland Model)

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/VIERA+Flat+Screen+TV/VIERA+Flat+Screen+TV+%28Ireland%29/TX-L42D25L/Overview/4723188/index.html


In the full spec notes it points to this page:
http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/tv/

This page offers firmware upgrades. This should be the mechanism through which they offer to solve this real issue.

watty

STB wrote: »

W
The point is that a TV that was released on the market in January 2010 does not comply with our spec published in 2008.

TX-L42D25L

VIERA Full HD LED LCD TV (Ireland Model)

In the full spec notes it points to this page:
http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/tv/

This page offers firmware upgrades. This should be the mechanism through which they offer to solve this real issue.

OK missed the detail.

Totally agree
Problem is that here we have ASAI and CAI

Most people hardly know either exists.
While there is an online form for ASAI, you have to write a letter

You have to write, on real paper, for them to even progress.

They won't do anything as CAI is some sort of Quango with a question as to independence of decision process.

ASAI is industry association and believes the vendors without any independent verification.

Both are more useless than Chocolate Teapot, as at least you can eat Chocolate

The Cush

STB wrote: »

Watty, The Cush etc - this is nothing to do with Saorview certification. This is to do with following compliance with basic country broadcasting standards.

The point is that a TV that was released on the market in January 2010 does not comply with our spec published in 2008.

Why doesnt it ? They do not seem to be aware of the published spec for Ireland. How many other manufacturers are releasing products that do not comply with our published spec. And why.

Machinehead has a very good case for demanding MHEG5 as it is mandatory.

The only thing is the spec in not mandatory for any product sold in the country. The spec is only mandatory for products seeking Saorview certification. In Jan 2010 there wasn't a public DTT service in the country and the TV wasn't being sold as ready for Irish DTT. Teracom were only appointed earlier this year for product testing.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

The only thing is the spec in not mandatory for any product sold in the country. The spec is only mandatory for products seeking Saorview certification. In Jan 2010 there wasn't a public DTT service in the country and the TV wasn't being sold as ready for Irish DTT. Teracom were only appointed earlier this year for product testing.

Operational for standards for countries have to be adhered to afaik. Manufactures have consistently supported MHEG, via a stringent conformance regime and the development of country-specific profiles. When did this change for Ireland ?

My understanding is that DVB standards dictate that as manufacturing goes country profiles are created in line with published standards. This ensures that TVs are compliant for the country's destination. It means that they dont release ISDBT products in Europe and it dictates simple things like how VHF is turned off in UK but not Ireland.

Countries using ETSI ES 202 184 are well defined. It includes Ireland. Why isnt MHEG5 implemented per the mandatory requirements for iDTVs for Ireland. The UK have a specific model for UK - the B models. MHEG5 again is mandatory and is implemented.

The L models (Specified as Irish models) has no implementation of country profiled standards. We have been profiled with countries using MHP. This is nothing to do with Saorview certification but basic operational requirements and being included in the right profiled group of released TVs. Firmware turns off and on various basic requirements per country.

STB

watty wrote: »

OK missed the detail.

Totally agree
Problem is that here we have ASAI and CAI

Most people hardly know either exists.
While there is an online form for ASAI, you have to write a letter

You have to write, on real paper, for them to even progress.

They won't do anything as CAI is some sort of Quango with a question as to independence of decision process.

ASAI is industry association and believes the vendors without any independent verification.

Both are more useless than Chocolate Teapot, as at least you can eat Chocolate

The Consumer Electronic Distributors Association, (CEDA), is the sectoral association within ICT Ireland promoting the development and representing the interests of the major distributors of consumer electronic goods in Ireland.


In order to keep pace with this change CEDA regularly consults with Government and organisations such as RTE, the Commission for Communications Regulation and educational establishments to ensure that policy makers are up to date with the needs of the industry. Key areas of activity addressed by the association include:

• Representation of the industry in respect of Legal & Regulatory issues on a local & European basis.
• Environmental Issues
• Training & Skills Development
• After Sales Service Policies & Provision
• Communication Forum for Industry Specific Issues

At national level, the association is focussed on both short and long term issues. In the area of EU legislation and policy, there is a considerable advantage to being a member of a larger group such as ICT and IBEC. The introduction of the E U Waste from Electronics and Electrical Equipment (WEEE) directive, will place added responsibilities on all those within the supply chain to deal with recycling and disposal.

CEDA also compiles market statistics on the sales of a variety of "brown" goods in Ireland. Reflecting rising prosperity, these figures have shown consistent increases in recent years and give an interesting indication of the changing purchases of the Irish consumer.

Members of CEDA include:
Beko, LG Electronics, Audiovisual Import, Panasonic, Sharp, Mitsubishi, Philips Ireland, Sony Ireland, Sanyo, JVC, Dimpco, KAL.

The current chairman of the association is Mr. Sushil Teji, Sony Electronics.

Director : Kathryn Raleigh
Executive : Alicia Hunt
Secretariat : Patricia Keogh

For further details on the activities of CEDA, phone 01 605 1582


http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/BA.nsf/vPages/Business_Sectors~ICT_Ireland~consumer-electronic-distributors-association?OpenDocument

The Cush

STB wrote: »

Manufactures have consistently supported MHEG, via a stringent conformance regime and the development of country-specific profiles. When did this change for Ireland ?
...
Why isnt MHEG5 implemented per the mandatory requirements for iDTVs for Ireland. The UK have a specific model for UK - the B models. MHEG5 again is mandatory and is implemented.

The stringent conformance regime for Ireland is the Teracom testing and Saorview certification process. DVB standards don't mandate MHEG-5 or any specific middleware.

MHEG5 will be implemented per the Saorview-certified mandatory requirements for DTT receivers in Ireland.

In the UK MHEG5 is mandatory and is implemented on freeview-certified receivers. There is at least one non-MHEG5 receiver being used for freeview (see lawhec's post)

Other than the certified products it'll be up to the manufacturers to implement MHEG-5 and will probably do so in due course, e.g. I have two non Saorview certified Sony TVs; one does MHEG-5 in the Ireland setting the other doesn't.

watty

Saorview certification is just a convenience for retailer and consumer to take away guess work.

If the TV does DVB-T or DVB-T2, MPEG4, HD and AAC for ANY country then there is no excuse as MHEG5 is royalty free. Doubly no excuse if there is a UK Model that is HD an MPEG4, even if only DVB-T, though all newer UK HDTVs will be DVB-T and DVB-T2.

At this stage it reeks of product dumping.

I'm considering physical mail shot to all the major retailers, distributors and Manufacturers. It wouldn't be much expense.

Of course the Powers that Be should have a combo mail shot with Logos/Endorsement of

• Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
• CAI
• ASAI
• BAI
• RTE NL
• RTE, TV3 and TG4
• Comreg

Signed by New head of Digital Awareness Campaign
http://www.rte.ie/about/pressreleases/2010/0701/directordso010710.html

RTÉ has appointed Mary Curtis to the new senior executive position of Director of Digital Switchover, with responsibility for an effective transition by audiences in the coming two years to digital television using the new Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) system.

(1st July 2010) via http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055956167

Minister Ryan: In the meantime, the clear responsibility of my Department, in conjunction with the RTÉ, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI), ComReg and other stakeholders, is to progress the digital switch-over process so that it meets the 2012 timeline for analogue switch off.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67436308&postcount=7
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68621009&postcount=41

The Government keep boasting about how they will make €500M from this (Profit auctioning TV spectrum AKA Digital Dividend, but it should be smarter than that, like 1M for Spectrum and Beauty Contest, value is then from Infrastructure)

When The Authorities do nothing, it's up to the Citizens, within the law of course.

winston_1

STB wrote: »

/ ***Notice for DVB functions: / This TV is designed to meet the standards (current as of August, 2009) of DVB-T/C/S/S2 (MPEG2 and MPEG4-AVC [H.264]) services. / The compatibility with future DVB services is not guaranteed. / DVB-T MPEG4-AVC broadcast is available in selected countries: Denmark, Spain, Estonia, France, Lithuania, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Portugal. / DVB-C feature is available only in following countries: / Sweden (ComHem, Canal Digital), Demark (YouSee), Norway (Canal Digital), Finland (Cable Ready HD), Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands / The country list above is as of January 1st, 2010. / Check the latest information on the available services at the following website (English only): / http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/tv/

NO mention of Ireland! They better not hide behind the operational service. Its been on since 2008 on a test basis. The standard for Ireland was set in February 2008 and finalised in December 2008! Both were also published. Jeez do the manufacturers not have a logged standard for Ireland ???? And I am talking about mandatory inclusion of MHEG5 here!

Does the set off UK a a country in it's setup menu. If so, switching to UK should not stop MPEG4 working and may enable MHEG.

watty

On some UK sets that are Freeview, not FreeviewHD, indeed selecting "UK" does disable MPEG4

The Cush

winston_1 wrote: »

Does the set off UK a a country in it's setup menu. If so, switching to UK should not stop MPEG4 working and may enable MHEG.

Any MPEG-4 TV I've setup doesn't disable the MPEG-4 part with UK setting but with Sony TV's it can disable the VHF analogue tuner part of the TV. Setting to UK will enable MHEG-5 on TVs where it's not available in the Ireland setting.

STB

winston_1 wrote: »

Does the set off UK a a country in it's setup menu. If so, switching to UK should not stop MPEG4 working and may enable MHEG.

Does it offer MHEG by selecting UK. That what you are asking Winston ?

No. Thats the UK or B model which is specific to UK.

The L model doesnt include UK in the country profiles as a result.

The L is apparently an Irish model yet MHP is the default middleware despite CEDA writing to manufacturers in 2008 and despite Panasonic being a member of CEDA releasing a 2010 dvb-t product that fair enough has MPEG4 but incompatible middleware despite MHEG5 being manadatory in our country profile in iDTVs for our spec.

Deedsie

http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/4/40pfl8664h_12/40pfl8664h_12_pss_eng.pdf

Is this tv compatible? I still dont know what i am looking at. Sorry to keep asking guys

Volcane

watty wrote: »

On some UK sets that are Freeview, not FreeviewHD, indeed selecting "UK" does disable MPEG4

My brother has a LG 32 Plasma and when UK is selected as country no picture is available on rte channels. The TV has TnT and Boxer labels.

championc

STB wrote: »

Does it offer MHEG by selecting UK. That what you are asking Winston ?

No. Thats the UK or B model which is specific to UK.

The L model doesnt include UK in the country profiles as a result.

The L is apparently an Irish model yet MHP is the default middleware despite CEDA writing to manufacturers in 2008 and despite Panasonic being a member of CEDA releasing a 2010 dvb-t product that fair enough has MPEG4 but incompatible middleware despite MHEG5 being manadatory in our country profile in iDTVs for our spec.

If only Panasonic would wake up to the fact that they can finally release a joint UK and Ireland version. And if only they'd take on board the last line from the MoU of 01 Feb 2010 which quoted Ben Bradshaw, UK Minister as saying "BBC services will continue to be available in Ireland and Irish services continue to be available in Northern Ireland". A Service_Type tweak would open a huge extra potential market for Panasonic.

The Cush

Volcane wrote: »

My brother has a LG 32 Plasma and when UK is selected as country no picture is available on rte channels. The TV has TnT and Boxer labels.

TNT (France) and Boxer (Sweden) are MPEG-2 and will not display the Irish MPEG-4 pictures.

TNT-HD and Boxer certified receivers since April 2008 will be MPEG-4.

Does the TNT HD spec include AAC? If it doesn't then that's an issue.

The Cush

Karsini wrote: »

Does the TNT HD spec include AAC? If it doesn't then that's an issue.

Even though it's part of the spec it has not been tested during the engineering test transmissions.

What make/models are mpeg4 and freesat in 32 that work well aside from the panny's or is there only panny?

watty

The Cush wrote: »

Even though it's part of the spec it has not been tested during the engineering test transmissions.

Likely because they didn't have suitable play-out gear and not a priority.

Even with 2 x PSB Mux, once 2 or 3 of the main channels are HD, it would be attractive to halve the data rate of all the radio and TV sound by using AAC stereo instead of MP2. Almost all "freeview HD" TVs and set-boxes should cope. Similar Audio format to DAB+ or Digital Radio Mondiale (DRM, Mondiale means worldwide in French and Italian)

micratoyota

Hi Have the Sony Kdl32W 5810 Since June Great TV My problem is that BBC 4 has gone and I dont know how to reset it without doing a complete re scan and then sorting out all the channels again. This TV has no box and uses the line direct from the sat dish. Now in the box which i have inthe other room I am able to do a TP scan and get the new settings and bring them forward. Does anyone know how to find and transfer the BBC 4

STB

Karsini wrote: »

Does the TNT HD spec include AAC? If it doesn't then that's an issue.

I keep seeing refrences to AAC its HE AAC.

The audio codecs to be covered in Irish Spec are

MPEG-4 HE AAC Level 4, version 1 (ISO/IEC 14496-3) and

AC3 (Dolby Digital) and Enhanced AC3 (“Dolby Digital Plus”) (ETSI TS 102 366) and

MPEG-1 Layer II (ISO/IEC 11172-3), here only up to 2.0 stereo (Musicam)

STB

Deleted User wrote: »

What make/models are mpeg4 and freesat in 32 that work well aside from the panny's or is there only panny?

The LG Lf7700 range. Michael in Freesat in Fairview has two of them on display.

fat-tony

micratoyota wrote: »

Hi Have the Sony Kdl32W 5810 Since June Great TV My problem is that BBC 4 has gone and I dont know how to reset it without doing a complete re scan and then sorting out all the channels again. This TV has no box and uses the line direct from the sat dish. Now in the box which i have inthe other room I am able to do a TP scan and get the new settings and bring them forward. Does anyone know how to find and transfer the BBC 4

Are you not using the Freesat software on this tv? I agree - it's an excellent set.:)
If you do an install using the UK as your location (you need to input a postcode) you will get the Freesat one week EPG and a sensible layout of channels. This has the side effect of putting the Saorview TV and radio channels in the 800's but it's trivial to move 16 radio and tv channels to positions 1, 2, 3 etc.

I use the Freesat EPG on the set and it automatically found the updated BBC4 location.