TV's with MPEG4 DTT decoder

watty

STB wrote: »

I keep seeing refrences to AAC its HE AAC.

The audio codecs to be covered in Irish Spec are

MPEG-4 HE AAC Level 4, version 1 (ISO/IEC 14496-3) [AKA AAC+ , casually referred to as AAC] and

AC3 (Dolby Digital) and Enhanced AC3 (“Dolby Digital Plus”) (ETSI TS 102 366) and

MPEG-1 Layer II (ISO/IEC 11172-3), here only up to 2.0 stereo (Musicam) [AKA MP2]

You are quite correct. We are getting Sloppy.



From RTE clarification doc http://rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf

All IRDs shall be able to receive and decode MPEG4 AVC (H.264) based SDTV and HDTV services,
MHEG5 data services, and DVB subtitling services.
Compared to NorDig Unified 2.0 basic profile specification, the following major additional minimum
requirements and clarifications are applicable for all IRDs:
• MPEG4 HD Level mandatory on all IRDs which among other things includes:

o Video decoding (see chapter 5.2)

ƒ MPEG4 HP@L4 HDTV (observe this includes HP@L3 SDTV)
ƒ MPEG2 SDTV

o Audio decoding (see chapter 5.3)

ƒ HE.AAC Level 4 multi-channel audio and
ƒ Enhanced AC3 (“Dolby Digital Plus”) multi-channel audio and
ƒ MPEG1 Layer 2 stereo audio

o DVB HD Subtitling
o Applicable SI for HD level

• MHEG-5 UK Profile, version 1.06 mandatory on all IRDs IRDs shall include MHEG-5 API UK profile version 1.06 with support of HDTV video as specified in DTG D-Book specification [UK Freeview HD].

later says

5.3.1. Audio format decoding

The IRD shall support monaural (mono), stereo (including joint stereo) and multi-channel (up to 5.1)
audio decoding for:

• MPEG-4 HE AAC Level 4, version 1 (ISO/IEC 14496-3) and
• Enhanced AC3 (“Dolby Digital Plus”) (ETSI TS 102 366) and
• MPEG-1 Layer II (ISO/IEC 11172-3), here only up to 2.0 stereo

The IRD should also support parametric stereo audio decoding for MPEG-4 HE AAC Level 4 (i.e. version 2). (Parametric Stereo (PS) is only applicable for use of MPEG4 HE.AAC version 2 stereo audio and mainly target for use in Radio services, i.e. not applicable for 5.1 or mono audio services
and not applicable for any Enhanced AC3 or MPEG-1 Layer II).

5.3.2. Simultaneous audio format decoding

The IRD shall support audio decoding with at least one audio format at the time, (i.e. some services
are using HE.AAC, some Enhanced AC3 and some others MPEG-1 Layer II).
Observe that some services may have several audio streams, for example with different languages b
the same audio format.

5.3.3. 2-channel audio downmix

The IRD shall support 2-channel Downmix of both HE.AAC and Enhanced AC3 incoming multi-
channel (up to 5.1) stream into a 2 channel output (stereo).
It shall not be required to use external audio (decoder) equipment, like audio home theatre system, f
the MPEG4-services with multi-channel audio. External interfacing equipment (like TV display uni
shall not be required to support more than 2 channel PCM audio within main V/A interface
(HDMI/SCART).
5.3.4. Audio settings from factory default
Factory default shall be that 2-channel down-mix of multi-channel audio for the Main output (HDMI
and SCART).

5.3.5. Variable bitrate

The IRD shall support decoding of variable bitrate of HE.AAC up to level 4 audio stream.

5.3.6. HDMI/SCART audio during digital audio

output
The audio should not be silence in main V/A interface (HDMI/SCART) when outputting digital
(surround) on digital audio interface (SPDIF) interfaces, i.e. it is recommended to continue outputting
2 channel PCM audio in parallel when outputting multi-channel audio (DTS/AC3/AAC/PCM) on the
separate audio interface.

Are they saying then "MPEG4 HE.AAC version 2 stereo audio and mainly target for use in Radio services"


It looks to me like there is some intention that a "Freeview HD" box should work here. The only major difference is that Freeview HD has DVB-T2, and that works on DVB-T anyway...

A Minimum Spec Saorview box will work with basic Freeview (includes MPEG2) but not FreeviewHD as it has DVB-T not DVB-T2 tuner.

So if you think you ever going to get good enough aerial signal from NI after ASO in 2012, get a FreeviewHD box. Wales is already post ASO.

Pangea

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-LE32C530-32-inch-Widescreen-1080p/dp/tech-data/B003EEM1M4/ref=de_a_smtd

Dont think this tv has mpeg 4 does it?

watty

Interesting:
TV bought over a year ago in Aldi. They gave money back.

It's possible ANY TV bought since Oct 2008 might be covered. Even if it not HD and only Analogue!
http://www.techtir.ie/blog/cinocat4/no-dtt-get-money-back

Souriau

fat-tony wrote: »

Are you not using the Freesat software on this tv? I agree - it's an excellent set.:)
If you do an install using the UK as your location (you need to input a postcode) you will get the Freesat one week EPG and a sensible layout of channels. This has the side effect of putting the Saorview TV and radio channels in the 800's but it's trivial to move 16 radio and tv channels to positions 1, 2, 3 etc.

I use the Freesat EPG on the set and it automatically found the updated BBC4 location.

And from 7pm you will get BBC1 HD added to the list automatically on Freesat
BBC1 HD 108
BBC HD 109

championc

Just a question for the knowledgable folk on here in relation to MHEG-5. Am I correct to say the the EPG is driven by it ? If so MachineHead, given the EPG is now up and functioning, what do you get on the Panasonic D25L - or have I got this all wrong (watty / STB) ?


C

fat-tony

The EPG is one part of the data stream transmitted to your TV or STB. The MHEG-5 software, which is a separate stream, is for displaying fancy teletext-type info which could include a programme guide. MHEG is also the foundation of the "Red Button" service on BBC which allows you to watch alternative streams of video when sporting events are presented. You will receive an EPG without MHEG. Most of the cheapie STBs (non-approved ones) won't have MHEG but will display the full 7 day Saorview EPG.

STB

STB wrote: »

I keep seeing refrences to AAC its HE AAC.

The audio codecs to be covered in Irish Spec are

MPEG-4 HE AAC Level 4, version 1 (ISO/IEC 14496-3) and

AC3 (Dolby Digital) and Enhanced AC3 (“Dolby Digital Plus”) (ETSI TS 102 366) and

MPEG-1 Layer II (ISO/IEC 11172-3), here only up to 2.0 stereo (Musicam)

Believe it or not I was actually going to write HE-AAC and then thought "am I being too specific here?"

micratoyota

fat-tony wrote: »

Are you not using the Freesat software on this tv? I agree - it's an excellent set.:)
If you do an install using the UK as your location (you need to input a postcode) you will get the Freesat one week EPG and a sensible layout of channels. This has the side effect of putting the Saorview TV and radio channels in the 800's but it's trivial to move 16 radio and tv channels to positions 1, 2, 3 etc.

I use the Freesat EPG on the set and it automatically found the updated BBC4 location.

Hi when I bought the set in June, I installed the Freesat which i agree is much better but I lost the Rte's and TV3 on the VHF. I live in Cork city so I don't know if Saorview is up and running here. I get my signal from Collins Barracks transmitter via Spur Hill I believe

fat-tony

micratoyota wrote: »

Hi when I bought the set in June, I installed the Freesat which i agree is much better but I lost the Rte's and TV3 on the VHF. I live in Cork city so I don't know if Saorview is up and running here. I get my signal from Collins Barracks transmitter via Spur Hill I believe

Ah yes - the old VHF is turned off when you set it to UK. I would have assumed Cork City is served by DTT. Spur Hill CH45 is on the RTENL list - anyone local confirm this? Now that TV3 has been added, you would have a full complement of national TV stations plus 10 radio channels.

watty

Spur hill is all UHF, TV3 isn't VHF anywhere. Spur Hill is supposed to be DTT
10 Spur Hill Cork 45 66 68 49, H, E # Yes 51.8560, -8.5159

Now it doesn't matter.

Tis Mullaghanish & Maghera that have RTE1 & RTE 2 on VHF for bits of Cork/Kerry/Limerick/Clare.

micratoyota

watty wrote: »

Spur hill is all UHF, TV3 isn't VHF anywhere. Spur Hill is supposed to be DTT
10 Spur Hill Cork 45 66 68 49, H, E # Yes 51.8560, -8.5159

Now it doesn't matter.

Tis Mullaghanish & Maghera that have RTE1 & RTE 2 on VHF for bits of Cork/Kerry/Limerick/Clare.

Am using old chorus line to receive rte's etc but have now tried an old indoor airial and can get a signal though poor so I will now go back and install Freesat. Will I be able to bring the Irish channels from the 800's to 1,2,3 4 . I have a feeling that I read somewhere that you can't move Freesat channels

micratoyota

watty wrote: »

Spur hill is all UHF, TV3 isn't VHF anywhere. Spur Hill is supposed to be DTT
10 Spur Hill Cork 45 66 68 49, H, E # Yes 51.8560, -8.5159

Now it doesn't matter.

Tis Mullaghanish & Maghera that have RTE1 & RTE 2 on VHF for bits of Cork/Kerry/Limerick/Clare.

Hi receiving rte's etc from an old chorus connection. Tried the TV with an old indoor aerial and got poor reception but I know that its there. Will now go and install Freesat, but one question can i move the rte's which I believe are on the 800's to No. 1 etc

Machinehead

championc wrote: »

Just a question for the knowledgable folk on here in relation to MHEG-5. Am I correct to say the the EPG is driven by it ? If so MachineHead, given the EPG is now up and functioning, what do you get on the Panasonic D25L - or have I got this all wrong (watty / STB) ?


C

The only EPG on the D25 is Panasonic's own inbuilt 7 day TV Guide. No fancy MHEG5/Red/Green button services. Pity - at this stage I think Panasonic have given up responding to my emails re software upgrade to activate MHEG5.:(

micratoyota

micratoyota wrote: »

Am using old chorus line to receive rte's etc but have now tried an old indoor airial and can get a signal though poor so I will now go back and install Freesat. Will I be able to bring the Irish channels from the 800's to 1,2,3 4 . I have a feeling that I read somewhere that you can't move Freesat channels

Have installed Freesat starts with 101 BBC but no Irish Channels where am I going wrong. Got option Freesat or DVB-S

micratoyota

micratoyota wrote: »

Have installed Freesat starts with 101 BBC but no Irish Channels where am I going wrong. Got option Freesat or DVB-S

Freesat is satellite, you won't get the Irish channels free on satellite. You need a DVB-T tuner with MPEG-4 support and a suitable UHF aerial.

micratoyota

The Cush wrote: »

PM sent.

You helped me last June with Sony W5810 with full instructions for FTA channels but now Fat Tony says that I should be using Freesat and i should pick up the 16 Saorview digital channels . I have gone back to factory settings and got the option Freesat or DVB-S . Choose Freesat and entered uk postcode. Installed full freesat starting with 101 but no Irish channels.. Can you please help me again.

micratoyota

fat-tony wrote: »

Are you not using the Freesat software on this tv? I agree - it's an excellent set.:)
If you do an install using the UK as your location (you need to input a postcode) you will get the Freesat one week EPG and a sensible layout of channels. This has the side effect of putting the Saorview TV and radio channels in the 800's but it's trivial to move 16 radio and tv channels to positions 1, 2, 3 etc.

I use the Freesat EPG on the set and it automatically found the updated BBC4 location.

Installed Freesat with uk postcode but no Saorview channels. ?????

The Cush

micratoyota wrote: »

You helped me last June with Sony W5810 with full instructions for FTA channels but now Fat Tony says that I should be using Freesat and i should pick up the 16 Saorview digital channels . I have gone back to factory settings and got the option Freesat or DVB-S . Choose Freesat and entered uk postcode. Installed full freesat starting with 101 but no Irish channels.. Can you please help me again.

I don't use the freesat option but have you done a digital terrestrial scan? The DTT scan is seperate to the satellite scan.

Menu - Digital Set-up - Digital Tuning - Digital Auto Tuning (full vhf/uhf scan) or Digital Manual Scan (select channel number to begin scan)
I suggest Digital Auto Tuning.

fat-tony

micratoyota wrote: »

Installed Freesat with uk postcode but no Saorview channels. ?????

The Freesat scan will bring in the BBCs, ITVs,CH4s etc on the satellite connection.
On the terrestrial aerial connection you need to connect an aerial (not the Chorus/UPC cable which will have the RTEs etc on VHF). Whether you need an external aerial or an indoor aerial is dependant on location. You can try The Cush's recommendation to do Digital Auto tuning and it will scan all UHF channels for a DTT signal. As I posted earlier and watty confirmed, CH45 is the first multiplex for DTT from Spur Hill. The TV will automatically store the RTE tv and radio channels in the 800s, and it is easy to move them to 1, 2, 3 or whatever numbering you like. The Freesat channels can't be moved as they are linked to the Freesat EPG.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Interesting:
TV bought over a year ago in Aldi. They gave money back.

It's possible ANY TV bought since Oct 2008 might be covered. Even if it not HD and only Analogue!
http://www.techtir.ie/blog/cinocat4/no-dtt-get-money-back

The ALDI Specialbuys flyer this week has a 19" Tevion TV advertised "with analogue tuner" no mention of digital but does state it has "7 day epg" and "CI slot" that supports the use of an SD card.

With the Saorview DTT name now out there consumers can ask with confidence if the TV they are buying will work with Irish DTT.

watty

The Return under "sales of goods" and EU & Irish Law will apply to Analogue only TVs as they are not fit for purpose
* Don't get all Irish Channels
* Now Analogue will be off in just under two years.

Your "contract" is with shop that sold it and it's deemed reasonable that a TV should last two years at least or it's not "fit for purpose". Over two years ago manufacturers, Distributors and retailer associations were notified of the upcoming Digital TV. It's just the same as if you are sold a UHF only Analogue rather than VHF+ UHF. If it's sold as a TV at all, inside last two years it has to at least support MPEG4 HD reception (downscaling to SD is allowed), HE-AAC sound and DVB-T. The MHEG5 support only applies to TVs sold since end of July 2010, because it wasn't 100% confirmed, though even March 2008, that was very likely so any decent Retailer ought to replace for that also. Lack of Saorview certification isn't an issue. Currently UK "Freeview HD" sets (not "HD Ready" or "Full HD" with "Freeview", which now shouldn't be sold in UK as they will never receive HD in UK without a box) will tick all the boxes and anything French "TNT HD" compatible (i.e. everything except MHEG5) is probably acceptable before August 2010.

STB

watty wrote: »

The Return under "sales of goods" and EU & Irish Law will apply to Analogue only TVs as they are not fit for purpose
* Don't get all Irish Channels
* Now Analogue will be off in just under two years.

Your "contract" is with shop that sold it and it's deemed reasonable that a TV should last two years at least or it's not "fit for purpose". Over two years ago manufacturers, Distributors and retailer associations were notified of the upcoming Digital TV. It's just the same as if you are sold a UHF only Analogue rather than VHF+ UHF. If it's sold as a TV at all, inside last two years it has to at least support MPEG4 HD reception (downscaling to SD is allowed), HE-AAC sound and DVB-T. The MHEG5 support only applies to TVs sold since end of July 2010, because it wasn't 100% confirmed, though even March 2008, that was very likely so any decent Retailer ought to replace for that also. Lack of Saorview certification isn't an issue. Currently UK "Freeview HD" sets (not "HD Ready" or "Full HD" with "Freeview", which now shouldn't be sold in UK as they will never receive HD in UK without a box) will tick all the boxes and anything French "TNT HD" compatible (i.e. everything except MHEG5) is probably acceptable before August 2010.

Watty, it has been mandatory since February 2008. The finalised version in December 2008 made no changes. CEDA members were written to. Panasonic are a member of CEDA and should know better. This can be sorted with firmware in the event that the TV has MHEG5 which is just turned off.

We have been lobbed in with Nordig countries in the L range that panasonic 2010 TVs. Our basic requirements go beyond Nordig standards and includes MHEG5. Perhaps we should be profiled with the UK from now on despite us only using dvb-t for HD.

Either way there rreally is no excuse for all this messing. The weight of a 66million population would change matters but little old Ireland, well we are not big bucks when it comes to TV sales in Europe.

Sponge Bob

Lack of MHEG5 is not a showstopper if they broadcast the 'old' teletext for the next few years as well like they do now. If you can see and hear the thing it is a Television

watty

Selection of "hidden" sport stream not on a Channel Sponge Bob. Other stuff possibly.
green/red button. MHEG5 isn't just the fancy text.

But I agree that the most important is that video and audio work. Since MHEG5 is royalty free though and is tiny CPU overhead what excuse? MHP costs money.

Machinehead

Just sent this to RTÉNL ~ one wonders what kind of response if any I will get in return.

"To Whom It May Concern:

I would appreciate if you could provide me with an answer to the following. At what date did the published document entitled “Minimum Receiver Requirements for Free-to-Air Digital Terrestrial Television for Radio Telefis Éireann” Version 1.0 Issue 1 Date: 2008-12-19 become mandatory/compulsory for manufacturers offering IRD televisions/set top boxes for sale in the Republic of Ireland?"

The Cush

Machinehead wrote: »

Just sent this to RTÉNL ~ one wonders what kind of response if any I will get in return.

"To Whom It May Concern:

I would appreciate if you could provide me with an answer to the following. At what date did the published document entitled “Minimum Receiver Requirements for Free-to-Air Digital Terrestrial Television for Radio Telefis Éireann” Version 1.0 Issue 1 Date: 2008-12-19 become mandatory/compulsory for manufacturers offering IRD televisions/set top boxes for sale in the Republic of Ireland?"

Interesting question . Looking forward to the reply.

I suspect you will get a reply similar to this - The Minimum Receiver Requirements is the minimum specification required for DTT receivers being submitted by manufacturers to Teracom for Saorview conformance testing prior to Saorview certification.

Machinehead

Crush, I figure you just read the mind of someone at RTÉNL or perhaps work for them on the QT.

The Cush

Machinehead wrote: »

Crush, I figure you just read the mind of someone at RTÉNL or perhaps work for them on the QT.

I wish. If I did I probably wouldn't be posting here

jonnygee

Would i be correct in thinking that any saorview sets sold here from now on will actually be freeview hd sets with a soarview sticker added. Is it correct that freeview hd sets can do saorview but offical saorview sets (current specs.) cant recieve freeview hd, so for eventual freeview hd overspill current saorview spec sets wont be enough.

The Cush

jonnygee wrote: »

Would i be correct in thinking that any saorview sets sold here from now on will actually be freeview hd sets with a soarview sticker added.

No, any DTT receiver carrying the Saorview certified logo has been independently tested by Teracom and conforms to the Saorview spec. Saorview certified receivers could also be freeview or freeview-HD certified, TNT France certified, TDT Spain certified etc. etc.

jonnygee wrote: »

Is it correct that freeview hd sets can do saorview but offical saorview sets (current specs.) cant recieve freeview hd, so for eventual freeview hd overspill current saorview spec sets wont be enough.

Saorview certified receivers could also be freeview only certified or freeview-HD certified, it will depend on which tuner is installed DVB-T or DVB-T2. Freeview-HD receivers will receive the Irish DTT channels and are used by some members here. (just to add to the confusion some freeview only certified receivers are also MPEG-4 and can display the Irish channels but not the freeview HD ones)

If you live in an overspill area a Saorview/freeview-HD certified TV (none available yet) or freeview-HD certified will be required to receive both services incl MHEG-5 for digital text/red button.

Saorview = DVB-T/MPEG-4/MHEG-5
Freeview = DVB-T/MPEG-2/MHEG-5
Freeview-HD = DVB-T2/MPEG-4/MHEG-5

DVB-T2 is backwards compatible with DVB-T
MPEG-4 is backwards compatible with MPEG-2