ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

AllForIt · 27-02-2019 3:58am

end of the road wrote: »

no, it's not suggesting that it is the fault of the uk she did what she did. it's saying quite frankly that because she is a british citizen, born in britain, that whatever stunt britain pulls, britain does not get to wash their hands of her and try dump her on other countries. that british citizens by birth are the responsibility of britain even if they try and strip them of their citizenship. if someone with british citizenship was born elsewhere, then yes that changes things, because ultimately, britain is not the country of birth/origin.
if syria etc decide they want to put foreign isis fighters in their country on trial that will be their decision and they will do so.

I don't get you. She dumped herself in Syria. It wasn't like she was sent out there by the UK. She went there of her own accord.

My point was which you didn't address, and just focusing on the citizenship thing, is that she possibly committed crimes if Syria. Why would the UK be responsible for prosecuting her for crimes she may or may not have committed in Syria?

Those taking a more sympathetic view have said she was groomed. Well if that's the case she can hardly be prosecuted for joining ISIS then? So what would the UK charge her with if it was shown she was just associated with but was not an active member of a terrorist group? Nothing then. But if she did commit crimes in Syria the UK have no way, or very little chance of, proving it.

The wider issue is the problem of ISIS fighters coming back to the UK where the UK have no proof of what they are suspected of doing, which is why I argue they should ALL be put on trial in Syria, not the UK.

If she is suspected of crimes in Syria then she should be on trial in Syria firstly, and if found not guilty then she can come back to the UK.

joeguevara · 27-02-2019 4:16am

AllForIt wrote: »

I don't get you. She dumped herself in Syria. It wasn't like she was sent out there by the UK. She went there of her own accord.

My point was which you didn't address, and just focusing on the citizenship thing, is that she possibly committed crimes if Syria. Why would the UK be responsible for prosecuting her for crimes she may or may not have committed in Syria?

Those taking a more sympathetic view have said she was groomed. Well if that's the case she can hardly be prosecuted for joining ISIS then? So what would the UK charge her with if it was shown she was just associated with but was not an active member of a terrorist group? Nothing then. But if she did commit crimes in Syria the UK have no way, or very little chance of, proving it.

The wider issue is the problem of ISIS fighters coming back to the UK where the UK have no proof of what they are suspected of doing, which is why I argue they should ALL be put on trial in Syria, not the UK.

If she is suspected of crimes in Syria then she should be on trial in Syria firstly, and if found not guilty then she can come back to the UK.

Firstly membership of an illegal Organisation is pretty easy to prove and the fact that she left U.K. to be part of ISIS displays way more than mere association. How did a 13 year old pay for her ticket, where did she live, who was she married to. It’s not like she stayed in the U.K. and kept her mouth shut about what her husband did.

Her revocation of U.K. citizenship is strange. It was done so because the U.K. claimed she had dual citizenship with Bangladesh. This is denied by Bangladesh so it appears U.K. is breaching the U.N. declaration of Human Rights of the right to citizenship.

The fact she is 13 appears to be broadly ignored and we have no idea of her mental capacity. It is not normal to defect to become a terrorist at 13 and to renounce her citizenship appears to be a populist knee jerk reaction. However she doesn’t appear to be in any way remorseful and is more than likely to spread rhetoric if came home.

However, if stateless she has no one to protect her Human Roghts. That is the clincher for me. I think every Human has the right to Human Rights protection no matter what they did. If we turn our backs on that then we are being selective. Human Rights but only sometimes.

biko · 27-02-2019 4:28am

It's kinda mad how it took all this time, and for them to now be in a camp, for these people to realise - they actually didn't want to be there at all?!

Let's divert some foreign aid to help keep them there, or pay for a flight to Saudi Arabia..

joeguevara · 27-02-2019 4:35am

biko wrote: »

It's kinda mad how it took all this time, and for them to now be in a camp, for these people to realise - they actually didn't want to be there at all?!

Let's divert some foreign aid to help keep them there, or pay for a flight to Saudi Arabia..

One thing that is clear about the 13 year old London girl and other similar cases is that we are relying on media reports for information and making judgments based on what is reported.

No one has made any comment that this13 year old girl mightn’t be able to speak what she really feels because let’s face it she is still in a Muslim state and if speaks out against ISISshe could be murdered. Now I want to make it clear that I don’t that that is true in this case but I would not want to revoke citizenship based on media reports and interviews with a child without proper psychologist reports and no knowledge of her safety or emotional state.

No matter how unpalatable we have to believe in innocent until proven guilty. We can’t pick and choose.

biko · 27-02-2019 5:05am

I'm not entirely sure who you refer to when you say "13"?
The girls in the OP Shamima Begum, Kadiza Sultana and Amira Abase, were aged between 15 and 16 at the time they left for Syria.

As to media, yes they can't be trusted always.
But you can listen to her own words in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SooDVtENq9c

ChikiChiki · 27-02-2019 5:08am

biko wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure who you refer to when you say "13"?
The girls in the OP Shamima Begum, Kadiza Sultana and Amira Abase, were aged between 15 and 16 at the time they left for Syria.

As to media, yes they can't be trusted always.
But you can listen to her own words in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SooDVtENq9c

She has no remorse. She showed indifference to the Manchester bombings. Who would be insane enough to let her back.

Hardliners would be laughing at us.

biko · 27-02-2019 5:13am

To Godwin it all, it's like Eva Braun stepping out of the bunker - "ah, you know what, I regret it all now..."

joeguevara · 27-02-2019 5:13am

biko wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure who you refer to when you say "13"?
The girls in the OP Shamima Begum, Kadiza Sultana and Amira Abase, were aged between 15 and 16 at the time they left for Syria.

As to media, yes they can't be trusted always.
But you can listen to her own words in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SooDVtENq9c

Sorry I thought she was 13 when she left. I listen. Abhorrent. But she is still there and perhaps worried. I did say I don’t believe a word she says and she has no remorse. But I feel we can’t turn our backs on human rights due to the acts of humans. We can’t pick and choose what rights are inherent and having a state is one. Also innocent until proven guilty can’t be taken away. If so we become similar to laws we believe are evil.

biko · 27-02-2019 5:24am

You either turn your back on ISIS, or your turn your back on their victims.
Because if you let ISIS terrorists and their collaborators back into Europe then you force their victims to risk facing them.

And it's already happening 'I met my IS captor on a German street'

joeguevara · 27-02-2019 5:31am

biko wrote: »

You either turn your back on ISIS, or your turn your back on their victims.
Because if you let ISIS terrorists and their collaborators back into Europe then you force their victims to risk facing them.

And it's already happening 'I met my IS captor on a German street'

But either you abide by inalienable human rights I.e. citozenship or you turn your back on all irrevocable rights. It is a very difficult argument. I wouldn’t want it done on the basis of a tv interview.

biko · 27-02-2019 5:38am

Maybe I just value Yazidi human rights more.
Or maybe when you join ISIS you kinda give up your rights to return.

Human rights doesn't mean right to return to UK after you have joined their enemies.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights/what-are-human-rights

They can never be taken away, although they can sometimes be restricted – for example if a person breaks the law, or in the interests of national security.

joeguevara · 27-02-2019 5:42am

biko wrote: »

Maybe I just value Yazidi human rights more.
Or maybe when you join ISIS you kinda give up your rights to return.

Human rights doesn't mean right to return to UK after you have joined their enemies.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights/what-are-human-rights

But if a human right is irrevocable where do we draw the line. I think she is a despicable human, shows no remorse, will more than likely spread Isis message but human rights don’t only apply to good people. It is a horrible scenario.

biko · 27-02-2019 7:45am

For me it's quite clear cut.

Everyone is banging on about human rights, but everyone conveniently forgets about human obligations.
One of those obligations is to not join a murdering terror sect that kills babies, throws gays off roofs or keeps slaves, something just about all children and adults in UK can manage because they are not mentally insane..

Having said this, I think the baby could be adopted away to Bangladesh or UK to protect his/her innocence and his/her record permanently sealed.

joeguevara · 27-02-2019 7:57am

biko wrote: »

For me it's quite clear cut.

Everyone is banging on about human rights, but everyone conveniently forgets about human obligations.
One of those obligations is to not join a murdering terror sect that kills babies, throws gays off roofs or keeps slaves, something just about all children and adults in UK can manage because they are not mentally insane..

Having said this, I think the baby could be adopted away to Bangladesh or UK to protect his/her innocence and his/her record permanently sealed.

It’s not banging on about human rights, I would love to forget them sometimes for serious crimes but it has noth8ng to do about what a person did. Then we could torture people for committing sick crimes. It is either an irrevocable right ton citizenship or it’s not. If we can choose irrevocable rights then why have them at all.

I dislike it but it is what it is.

Gatling · 27-02-2019 10:36am

biko wrote: »

Maybe I just value Yazidi human rights more.

Especially when you hear about the 50+ yazidi women who's heads were recently found dumped in rubbish bins by forces fighting the last remnants of Isis ,

But yeah let's not make people with multiple nationalities stateless that will upset the tree huggers

weldoninhio · 27-02-2019 10:50am

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

If in doubt, idiom?

Its not exactly going to be like Big Jack and the team returning after Italia '90.

There won't be people at the airport to welcome them home shouting Allah Akbar??? It happened with Ibrahim Halawa. :rolleyes:

Danzy · 27-02-2019 10:54am

A good point, one extremist was brought back and put on the late late show.

If a young man left Dublin to support a Neo Nazi uprising, he would not have the same support.

Ironically nearly all those who supported Halawa would be his ideological opposites.

Kivaro · 27-02-2019 11:01am

Gatling wrote: »

Especially when you hear about the 50+ yazidi women who's heads were recently found dumped in rubbish bins by forces fighting the last remnants of Isis ,

But yeah let's not make people with multiple nationalities stateless that will upset the tree huggers

I am sure that our "ambulance driver" ISIS fighter had nothing to do with that.
The Irish (many of them) are so gullible in believing the stories spun out by people who want to come here to game the system.
Ambulance driver? He made up that story because he knew that stories like that has worked in the past in Ireland (e.g. a fella went to see a movie in Egypt only to end up on stage speaking to thousands in the early stages of a revolution there).

Let's look at this man's history:
The Belarus native obtained his Irish citizenship fraudulently like many thousands of others from Pakistan, North Africa who became Irish citizens through sham marriages.
He raised money for ISIS while in Ireland.
The funds that he raised for ISIS were not used to build schools for girls in the caliphate.
He has already cost us a fortune in surveillance while living in Ireland.
He left Ireland to join the ISIS terrorist group.
We have no idea of the atrocities that he committed while fighting and terrorising communities in Iraq and Syria.
And we are very much certain that he would not "loathe" throwing our Taoiseach and other gay members of the Irish government off the top of the nearest mosque upon returning "home".

Wonder will we get a repeat of a victorious return to Dublin airport (once again with Irish government help) with shouts of "allahu akbar" upon his arrival.

I am so fed with this liberal government, and will vote accordingly when the time comes.

Boggles · 27-02-2019 11:04am

Kivaro wrote: »

arrival.

I am so fed with this liberal government, and will vote accordingly when the time comes.

Tommy Robinson?

suicide_circus · 27-02-2019 12:04pm

gmisk wrote: »

FG are still polling ok-ish
https://www.redcresearch.ie/fine-gael-hang-on-to-support-but-will-the-public-give-them-a-wake-up-call-at-the-local-european-elections/
Kinda shocked tbh given the nurses strike and Simon Harris disaster.

what's the alternative?

FF = FG
LAB and the greens are non entities
SF/AAA/PBP...
You know, a SF/AAA/PBP with power's a little like the mule with a spinning wheel. No one knows how they got it, and danged if he knows how to use it!

Kivaro · 27-02-2019 12:21pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

what's the alternative?

FF = FG
LAB and the greens are non entities
SF/AAA/PBP...
You know, a SF/AAA/PBP with power's a little like the mule with a spinning wheel. No one knows how they got it, and danged if he knows how to use it!

My hope would be independents, and ultimately a group will form that will represent the majority of the workers/contributors in Irish society.

But in the meantime, and as much as I "loathe" Fianna Fail, the only way to punish Leo for lying to us is to vote Fianna Fail. I understand the damage that they've done to us in the past, but when Leo, in the last budget, gave more money to people who do not want to work than to those who do, then he needs to be punished for that ............. and for the extreme-liberal direction that he is pushing the country. Liberalism can be good sometimes, as it can balance out an uneven political field, but Brussels-led-liberalism is too extreme.

Also, the likes of Leo and Simon Coveney and a few other in the top echelon of Fine Gael are very likely to get good jobs in Brussels when they are kicked out of office here, because they were very good lap dogs.

Micheál Martin and other top Fianna Fail representatives on the other hand are less likely to get good positions in Brussels, so they may not be too focused on appeasing the bureaucrats in Europe, and instead focus on what is good for Ireland.

Boggles · 27-02-2019 12:34pm

Yeah vote FF that will show them. :pac:

Grayson · 27-02-2019 1:22pm

Don't know how true this is since it's the mirror but jesus

https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/shamima-begum-wirral-shooting-range-14060294

A shooting range in The Wirral has started using an image of ISIS bride Shamima Begum for target practice after receiving a 'record number of requests' from customers.

Ultimate Airsoft Range in Wallasey says the move allows adults and children as young as six "to have some light-hearted fun bringing out the inner child in all."

3_Victoria-Derbyshire-Show-shooting-range-in-Wallasey-defends-using-images-of-Shamima-Begum-as-targ.jpg

Their inner child has issues.

Boggles · 27-02-2019 1:34pm

Just Freedom of Speech init.

suicide_circus · 27-02-2019 1:37pm

Grayson wrote: »

Don't know how true this is since it's the mirror but jesus

https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/shamima-begum-wirral-shooting-range-14060294

Their inner child has issues.

it's not nice but it's nicer than what her isis buddies were up to...ie using real bullets to shoot real heads

enricoh · 27-02-2019 1:49pm

I'm pretty sure i read that our ambulance driver was captured with a few others as they were about to attack a civilian convoy fleeing some town on the front line.
A nice touch, targeting civilians trying to escape being used as human shields.

Fire up the government jet leo n get our man home! Stick him on the aul disability allowance - I'm sure he's traumatised the poor pet!

Gatling · 27-02-2019 1:55pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

it's not nice but it's nicer than what her isis buddies were up to...ie using real bullets to shoot real heads

Welcome to Airsoft

_Kaiser_ · 27-02-2019 2:19pm

ricero wrote: »

I am flabbergasted and appalled at Varadkars comments. How he could support bring home these Isis animals is beyond me. Never did vote for his party but after this I never ever will.

Scary times we are living in with these globalist liberal loonies in charge. Their soft stances and actions are endangering lives.

Varadkar's biggest achievement will be that he proved to be even worse than his immediate predecessor.

I've been saying this for years though. Look at his track record in Government prior to "inheriting" the top job from Enda (against the wishes of most of his own party remember) - he achieved nothing in Health (probably why he has no issue with Harris's lack of results either) and nothing in Transport.

But he was/is media friendly and always had a soundbite for the reporters (generally about someone else's brief) and his obsession with social media and his personal profile comes above all else (campaignforleo as the handle of the Taoiseach says it all in my view). As a result he HAS no actual position on anything, but will go with whatever he thinks will get him the most "likes".

This is why he's incredibly weak and why his Government has pretty much limped along (FF would have pulled the rug out long ago if not for their own issues in Martin), dealing only with "easy win" social issues referenda that serve to distract the public from his lack of delivery elsewhere - Brexit, homelessness/housing, the cost of living in general etc etc etc.

But fear not.. Someone will be along shortly to ask who else is there then, or blame FF - because it's not like FG have been in power for most of this decade after all...

Danzy · 27-02-2019 3:21pm

Grayson wrote: »

Don't know how true this is since it's the mirror but jesus

https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/shamima-begum-wirral-shooting-range-14060294

Their inner child has issues.

Wirral Anti Fascists day out at the range?

end of the road · 27-02-2019 3:24pm

AllForIt wrote: »

I don't get you. She dumped herself in Syria. It wasn't like she was sent out there by the UK. She went there of her own accord.

My point was which you didn't address, and just focusing on the citizenship thing, is that she possibly committed crimes if Syria. Why would the UK be responsible for prosecuting her for crimes she may or may not have committed in Syria?

Those taking a more sympathetic view have said she was groomed. Well if that's the case she can hardly be prosecuted for joining ISIS then? So what would the UK charge her with if it was shown she was just associated with but was not an active member of a terrorist group? Nothing then. But if she did commit crimes in Syria the UK have no way, or very little chance of, proving it.

The wider issue is the problem of ISIS fighters coming back to the UK where the UK have no proof of what they are suspected of doing, which is why I argue they should ALL be put on trial in Syria, not the UK.

If she is suspected of crimes in Syria then she should be on trial in Syria firstly, and if found not guilty then she can come back to the UK.

ultimately that will be syria's decision and business as to whether she or others are tried there. it's their country. they will not be forced to try her and the west have absolutely no right to force syria to do anything.
for isis fighters who returned to the uk, it will be up to the prosecution service as to what charges if any, will be brought. however membership of an illegal organisation would be 1 charge they could absolutely bring, and very easily given the evidence is already there.

biko wrote: »

It's kinda mad how it took all this time, and for them to now be in a camp, for these people to realise - they actually didn't want to be there at all?!

Let's divert some foreign aid to help keep them there, or pay for a flight to Saudi Arabia..

not possible. diverting foreign aid is effectively an attempt at co-ersion and forceing a country, who has been through years of horror due to western interference all be it mainly from america, to keep the west's problems. saudi arabia are unlikely to want these people either.
i know people just want to dump these people on whatever country regardless of the possible feelings of those countries but it's not going to work out thankfully. these countries have rights also.

ChikiChiki wrote: »

She has no remorse. She showed indifference to the Manchester bombings. Who would be insane enough to let her back.

Hardliners would be laughing at us.

nobody would be insane to let her back, they would be sane and pragmatic if they did so. and ultimately i think she will be allowed back as the bangladesh authorities have said she won't be going there. it is illegal to make someone stateless. britain would be jumping up and down if the situation was reversed.

ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

Comments