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ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

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Comments

  • #2352
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    recedite wrote: »
    Personally I would not support that, because is think it has been useful to Europe that so many European-born jihadis went to Syria and died there. And even if a few return (mostly widows and orphans) it is still a net benefit IMO.
    In general you can't prosecute people for what they do abroad. I could go to Amsterdam and smoke pot there legally, and then return here. It would be wrong for the Gardai to prosecute me unless I carried some back in my pocket.

    Its more important IMO for this state to ensure that returning widows and orphans (if they are citizens) are watched, and that they are re-integrated into Irish society.

    In this regard, I'd have a few questions to ask. Did the mother renounce Irish citizenship and take on Islamic state citizenship instead?
    Where is her passport, did she publicly burn it in Syra as part of a citizenship ceremony?
    Does she now have to re-apply for Irish citizenship?
    What is the current citizenship of her child, who has never been to Ireland?
    What school would the child attend? I think we could reasonably put a condition on her return that the child would not attend the Muslim school in Clonskeagh or a similar school, given the particular circumstances.

    If the child is to be brought up in Ireland, and welcomed here as an Irish citizen, then it should receive an Irish upbringing, and be brought up as such, and not hailed as the offspring of a martyred father who died fighting a heroic cause in Syria. Because that could lead to further trouble in 20 years time.
    We are only at the start of this, but the French, British and Belgians are into their 3rd and 4th generations of it. It gets worse, unfortunately.

    I have made the same point many many post's ago...how can you convict anyone here in Ireland on the basis of crimes they may or may not have committed in an other Country ( and a war torn Country at that !!! ) As to what will happen herself, her Child,and Bekmirsaev when ( if ) they return to Ireland I don't know to be honest. For sure though, it will not be a return just to step back into her former Life,,,,,,that's gone, at least for the foreseeable future. And possibly the rest of her life....as such now, she is no longer much use to isis...she is toxic for them, and I can't see her former Irish Muslim friends ( not the isis ones) being exactly overjoyed to see her either....she has blackened the name of Islam in their eyes. Plus she will be watched and her actions monitored, like wise her friends. As for any isis members who got killed in Syria...good riddence. But the main leaders are still alive and well ( Baghdadi especially ) and unfortunately...the recruitment networks are still active, and still recruiting. Losing the caliphate was a major blow to them as a focal point.....but that has not destroyed them, just spread them out world wide, so they will continue to make war. Until isis can be destroyed as a belief system...it will continue. It has to be tracked down in the Mosques and isis Imams identified and removed at that level.


  • #2353
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,143 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    recedite wrote: »
    Personally I would not support that, because is think it has been useful to Europe that so many European-born jihadis went to Syria and died there. And even if a few return (mostly widows and orphans) it is still a net benefit IMO.
    In general you can't prosecute people for what they do abroad. I could go to Amsterdam and smoke pot there legally, and then return here. It would be wrong for the Gardai to prosecute me unless I carried some back in my pocket.

    Its more important IMO for this state to ensure that returning widows and orphans (if they are citizens) are watched, and that they are re-integrated into Irish society.

    In this regard, I'd have a few questions to ask. Did the mother renounce Irish citizenship and take on Islamic state citizenship instead?
    Where is her passport, did she publicly burn it in Syra as part of a citizenship ceremony?
    Does she now have to re-apply for Irish citizenship?
    What is the current citizenship of her child, who has never been to Ireland?
    What school would the child attend? I think we could reasonably put a condition on her return that the child would not attend the Muslim school in Clonskeagh or a similar school, given the particular circumstances.

    If the child is to be brought up in Ireland, and welcomed here as an Irish citizen, then it should receive an Irish upbringing, and be brought up as such, and not hailed as the offspring of a martyred father who died fighting a heroic cause in Syria. Because that could lead to further trouble in 20 years time.
    We are only at the start of this, but the French, British and Belgians are into their 3rd and 4th generations of it. It gets worse, unfortunately.

    i would be shocked and surprised if she had to re-apply for irish citizenship, as even if she did renounce it, she didn't take on the citizenship of a legally recognized state. she couldn't take on islamic state citizenship as there is no islamic state. islamic state is just a terrorist group so it cannot have citizens or any of the elements of a state.
    i suspect that the child would have irish citizenship via the mother, and citizenship of the country of origin of the father. + possibly syrian citizenship as well?
    i don't know what school the child would attend, i presume it would be whatever school around the area has a place. unless the muslim school is involved in preaching extremism, then there would be no point in preventing the child from attending.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2354
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    end of the road wrote: »
    i would be shocked and surprised if she had to re-apply for irish citizenship, as even if she did renounce it, she didn't take on the citizenship of a legally recognized state. she couldn't take on islamic state citizenship as there is no islamic state. islamic state is just a terrorist group so it cannot have citizens or any of the elements of a state.
    i suspect that the child would have irish citizenship via the mother, and citizenship of the country of origin of the father. + possibly syrian citizenship as well?
    i don't know what school the child would attend, i presume it would be whatever school around the area has a place. unless the muslim school is involved in preaching extremism, then there would be no point in preventing the child from attending.
    I agree with you on the citizenship of the child, there would probably be a choice of 3 citizenships available there.
    I don't expect this state to make any difficulties there, indeed they have already decided to pull out all the stops to retrieve her and the child at the taxpayers expense.


    There are Palestinians who don't recognise Israel as a state. Its not in the same league as IS in terms of atrocities, but the Jewish State has some parallels to the Islamic State. The main difference IMO is that one has survived, and the other has not.


    As for the Muslim school in Clonskeagh, well we don't really know what they are preaching there, do we?
    Dept. of education inspectors went in there and were critical of some things (too much Arabic and not enough English) but they did not attend the religion classes, which are taught by foreign Imams. They only inspected the classes that are subject to the national curriculum, which are taught by teachers on the state payroll.


  • #2355
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,143 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    recedite wrote: »
    I agree with you on the citizenship of the child, there would probably be a choice of 3 citizenships available there.
    I don't expect this state to make any difficulties there, indeed they have already decided to pull out all the stops to retrieve her and the child at the taxpayers expense.


    There are Palestinians who don't recognise Israel as a state. Its not in the same league as IS in terms of atrocities, but the Jewish State has some parallels to the Islamic State. The main difference IMO is that one has survived, and the other has not.


    As for the Muslim school in Clonskeagh, well we don't really know what they are preaching there, do we?
    Dept. of education inspectors went in there and were critical of some things (too much Arabic and not enough English) but they did not attend the religion classes, which are taught by foreign Imams. They only inspected the classes that are subject to the national curriculum, which are taught by teachers on the state payroll.


    i see where you are coming from, but israel is recognized by the majority of the world, whereas isis is generally only recognised by their members and sympathisers but not the world. in fact, while they were supported, funded, armed and trained originally by america and possibly other countries, i don't believe they were ever recognized as a state but simply a rebel group.
    it's certainly worrying that inspectors from the department of education can only inspect classes subject to the national curriculum, and i believe that does need to change. however i do think that if there is any extremism being preached in this or any muslim school then we would have some idea about it happening from sources. certainly if any school is preaching extremism regardless of religion or ethos then it should be dealt with and the problem stamped out.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2356
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,580 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    recedite wrote: »
    As for the Muslim school in Clonskeagh, well we don't really know what they are preaching there, do we?

    Am, we kind of do, there is a clue in "Muslim School". :confused:
    recedite wrote: »
    Dept. of education inspectors went in there and were critical of some things (too much Arabic and not enough English)

    It's hardly surprising nor is it nefarious. There is over 20 nationalities attending the school, around 75% don't have English as their first language.

    The Dept. sanctioned 5 more posts to help with the deficiencies.
    recedite wrote: »
    but they did not attend the religion classes,

    Really?
    The stated key aims of the school include fostering the Islamic way of life, enabling the pupils to develop English language competence as well as accessing the primary school curriculum. The Islamic ethos is clearly manifest in the organisation of the school day and the school
    year.

    School holidays are determined by the Islamic calendar of celebrations and festivals and the school day has been extended by 10 minutes. The school timetable provides significant time each day (50 minutes) for the teaching of Arabic, the Qur’an and Religious Education (RE) to all classes.

    In addition pupils from third to sixth classes attend prayer in the Mosque on a daily basis and pupils in the senior classes also attend Jumah prayer on
    Fridays.

    Seems like they are well aware of the religious education..
    They only inspected the classes that are subject to the national curriculum, which are taught by teachers on the state payroll.

    In a full school inspection, the whole school gets inspected not just what is on or what isn't on the curriculum.


  • #2357
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    AbyssofPus wrote: »
    Let her return. Then remove her from the plane, and have her executed in a field beside Dublin Airport for high treason. The child then has its identity scrubbed and given up for adoption.

    There, everyone happy.
    Let her return to live in Dundalk. Surely that would be punishment enough


  • #2358
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Boggles wrote: »
    Seems like they are well aware of the religious education..
    I'm "aware of it" too, but I don't know exactly what they are preaching.
    Dept. of education does not get involved with the religious indoctrination aspect of religious schools. The same goes for all religions.
    What are they saying about homosexuals, jews, atheists, womens rights, jihad?


  • #2359
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,580 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    recedite wrote: »
    What are they saying about homosexuals, jews, atheists, womens rights, jihad?

    You think the school is teaching kids Jihad? :pac:

    Have you any actual tangible proof for your concerns or is it just based on loose ignorance?


  • #2360
    98q76e12hrflnk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭98q76e12hrflnk


    Boggles wrote: »
    You think the school is teaching kids Jihad? :pac:

    Have you any actual tangible proof for your concerns or is it just based on loose ignorance?

    Love how you ignore the other points and focus on Jihad.


  • #2361
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,580 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    declan2693 wrote: »
    Love how you ignore the other points and focus on Jihad.

    Yeah, teaching kids jihad kind of jumps out at you though.

    :rolleyes:


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  • #2362
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,032 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Boggles wrote: »
    You think the school is teaching kids Jihad? :pac:
    Do you know what jihad means? It is not simply about violence, and there is disagreement within Islam about that and exactly what it means in practice. But even if Islamic schools aren't teaching violence, they are teaching that Islam is superior and will be the dominant religion one day.

    I know some moderate Muslims, and the best way I can describe it is as a kind of confidence, a superiority complex. Sure, Islam will naturally rule the world one day because it's just better, they say. It's the religion to end all other religions, and if we heathens don't see that, well, we're heathens, meaning we're stupid, but don't worry, there will be a place for us, below the true believers (dhimmi status). Working towards the ultimate dominance of Islam is jihad, which doesn't necessarily require violence.

    Death has this much to be said for it:
    You don’t have to get out of bed for it.
    Wherever you happen to be
    They bring it to you—free.

    — Kingsley Amis



  • #2363
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,580 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    bnt wrote: »
    Do you know what jihad means? It is not simply about violence, and there is disagreement within Islam about that and exactly what it means in practice. But even if Islamic schools aren't teaching violence, they are teaching that Islam is superior and will be the dominant religion one day.

    I know some moderate Muslims, and the best way I can describe it is as a kind of confidence, a superiority complex. Sure, Islam will naturally rule the world one day because it's just better, they say. It's the religion to end all other religions, and if we heathens don't see that, well, we're heathens, meaning we're stupid, but don't worry, there will be a place for us, below the true believers (dhimmi status). Working towards the ultimate dominance of Islam is jihad, which doesn't necessarily require violence.

    I'm pretty she he meant the murdering rampage type. ;)

    But I'm failing to see how you are surprised that one religion thinks it is above all others. :confused:

    You have heard of Hell haven't you?


  • #2364
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    bnt wrote: »
    Do you know what jihad means? It is not simply about violence, and there is disagreement within Islam about that and exactly what it means in practice. But even if Islamic schools aren't teaching violence, they are teaching that Islam is superior and will be the dominant religion one day.

    I know some moderate Muslims, and the best way I can describe it is as a kind of confidence, a superiority complex. Sure, Islam will naturally rule the world one day because it's just better, they say. It's the religion to end all other religions, and if we heathens don't see that, well, we're heathens, meaning we're stupid, but don't worry, there will be a place for us, below the true believers (dhimmi status). Working towards the ultimate dominance of Islam is jihad, which doesn't necessarily require violence.

    The definition of "Jihad" is "Effort", and that applies to any endeavor. Want to stop smoking? Declare Jihad on cigarettes !! Fight the Crusaders, declare Jihad against them. But it's also a name, as in "Jihad Al-Masur". You get the idea, but here in the west, it's normally associated with terrorism or war.
    The superiority angle comes from the belief that the very fact you are a Muslim, that in itself automatically makes you superior to non-Muslim's. And therefore, automatically puts you at an advantage. You, as a Muslim are better than a non-Muslim,and as such they are sub-serviant to you.


  • #2365
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    As pointed out above by others, the Islamic concept of jihad is nuanced and open to considerable interpretation. As such I'd be very surprised if the Clonskeagh Mosque school did not devote time to covering their own interpretation of it, whatever that might be. Martyrdom in the context of jihad is another contentious one.


  • #2366
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Claire Byrne show on RTE Monday night, interview with a journalist ( I think that is what she was ) who went to the camp in Al-Hawl and interviewed Lisa. According to her ( journalist) Lisa regrets joining isis.. was a mistake she said. Want's to come home with her child, and not only wants but expects to be coming home. She seems not to realize the situation that she is in... and how serious it is, and while the entry in to Syria was relatively simple, getting out is anything but. According to the journalist, she wont be coming home for a long time, and a very long time at that, according to the info given to her by the authorities.
    She say's that health-wise, both Lisa and the child seem to be doing OK...the humanitarian pipeline into the camp is now starting to become operational. Given that the camp was expected to cater for max 8-10'000, and now holds closer to 80'000 people... that's not surprising. Infant mortality is very high there and the Journalist, said that there is at least one other child there, who can claim Irish Citizenship, but there may be more. This other child is in a bad way. The program can be watched on the RTE player, if anyone is interested.


  • #2367
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    jmreire wrote: »
    Claire Byrne show on RTE Monday night, interview with a journalist ( I think that is what she was ) who went to the camp in Al-Hawl and interviewed Lisa. According to her ( journalist) Lisa regrets joining isis.. was a mistake she said. Want's to come home with her child, and not only wants but expects to be coming home. She seems not to realize the situation that she is in... and how serious it is, and while the entry in to Syria was relatively simple, getting out is anything but. According to the journalist, she wont be coming home for a long time, and a very long time at that, according to the info given to her by the authorities.
    She say's that health-wise, both Lisa and the child seem to be doing OK...the humanitarian pipeline into the camp is now starting to become operational. Given that the camp was expected to cater for max 8-10'000, and now holds closer to 80'000 people... that's not surprising. Infant mortality is very high there and the Journalist, said that there is at least one other child there, who can claim Irish Citizenship, but there may be more. This other child is in a bad way. The program can be watched on the RTE player, if anyone is interested.
    Interesting. With infastructure improving in the camp, there is a possibility it could morph into something as "temporary" as Guantanamo. Being located on disputed territory is useful for the countries funding these kind of operations, because their own domestic laws do not apply.
    A lot depends on Assad's attitude in the longer term, but he does not seem to be in any hurry to liberate this part of Syria. I think he has enough problems elsewhere.


  • #2368
    Field east
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭Field east


    malinheader wrote: »
    Does anyone really think that these scum will ever cease to become a threat. I for one think they will always pose a serious and deadly threat to innocent citizens of which ever country are gullible enough to take them back.
    (1 ) how will one know if and when Lisa Smith will be de-radicalised? To the ‘experts in deradicalisation’ she will not be a threat to the general public when they are finished wilt her. BUT knowing her life to date, what she was prepared to do and have done , the extremes of that and she is no spring chicken, I, FOR ONE, would be looking over my shoulder , if ever in her presence , to make sure that I do not get attacked by a knife or at worst get my head lopped off.
    (1) Before leaving Ireland, she must have been fairly immersed in the Islamic way of life , what was going on in the Calipate re very strict ‘moral way of life’ - including the beheading of for Eg infedals. Etc, etc. She apparently made no effort to leave the Calipate up to the point when the area she was living in was over run and she was arrested. So WHY DOES SHE OPT TO RETURN TO IRELAND AND INSTEAD OPT FOR ANOTHER ISLAMIC COUNTRY. There are plenty of them. Or maybe she is going to denounce Islam when she returns. ? She has a very wide choice in relation to what she wants re strictness, interpretation, etc if she wants to continue in the Islamic tradition.
    I , for one, would not thrust her the proverbial inch, EVER. It’s nothing personal but given her lifestyle to date it could be too late when one finds out that the deradicalisation did not work


  • #2369
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    To put the Lisa case in perspective, back in 2017, ( at the height of isis caliphate ) the BBC ran a very good series called " The State". It was about isis recruiting members, and gives a good insight into how they operated. Check it out on google, and you will get the link's to it.


  • #2370
    malinheader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Field east wrote: »
    (1 ) how will one know if and when Lisa Smith will be de-radicalised? To the ‘experts in deradicalisation’ she will not be a threat to the general public when they are finished wilt her. BUT knowing her life to date, what she was prepared to do and have done , the extremes of that and she is no spring chicken, I, FOR ONE, would be looking over my shoulder , if ever in her presence , to make sure that I do not get attacked by a knife or at worst get my head lopped off.
    (1) Before leaving Ireland, she must have been fairly immersed in the Islamic way of life , what was going on in the Calipate re very strict ‘moral way of life’ - including the beheading of for Eg infedals. Etc, etc. She apparently made no effort to leave the Calipate up to the point when the area she was living in was over run and she was arrested. So WHY DOES SHE OPT TO RETURN TO IRELAND AND INSTEAD OPT FOR ANOTHER ISLAMIC COUNTRY. There are plenty of them. Or maybe she is going to denounce Islam when she returns. ? She has a very wide choice in relation to what she wants re strictness, interpretation, etc if she wants to continue in the Islamic tradition.
    I , for one, would not thrust her the proverbial inch, EVER. It’s nothing personal but given her lifestyle to date it could be too late when one finds out that the deradicalisation did not work

    We will soon see what retribution or sentences these murderers get if and when they return, but going on past stupid, soft and weak stances taken by the west I don't think it will be to long before there back out among innocent citizens. There will be plenty of people to feel sorry for them.


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  • #2371
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    “Irish authorities are being helped by Danish counterparts to repatriate Isil bride Lisa Smith in a series of high-level discussions between the two governments, the Irish Independent can reveal.“

    Why are the Irish authorities so desperate to bring this loon back? Surely she must face justice in Syria first of all?


  • #2372
    mad muffin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    “Irish authorities are being helped by Danish counterparts to repatriate Isil bride Lisa Smith in a series of high-level discussions between the two governments, the Irish Independent can reveal.“

    Why are the Irish authorities so desperate to bring this loon back? Surely she must face justice in Syria first of all?

    Because Leo is desperate to one up his idol Justin Trudeau ;)


  • #2373
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    mad muffin wrote: »
    Because Leo is desperate to one up his idol Justin Trudeau ;)

    These ISIS wife’s would love to “hang out” with Leo alright.


  • #2374
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    “Irish authorities are being helped by Danish counterparts to repatriate Isil bride Lisa Smith in a series of high-level discussions between the two governments, the Irish Independent can reveal.“

    Why are the Irish authorities so desperate to bring this loon back? Surely she must face justice in Syria first of all?
    My thoughts too, should be held by Syrian authorities until full facts of her activities in Syria are determined. But if you read the link below even the Kosovo Jihadi-NATO statelet are jailing the returning veterans for a month.

    On that - there's a load of Jihadi and their hangers on bound for NATO statelet in the Balkans, Kosovo.
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/23/world/crime-legal-world/kosovo-police-quiz-several-women-returned-syria-jailing-jihadis/#.XL8pquhKi00
    NATO just love jihadi's.

    The kind of guys NATO likes to enable:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-fighters-return-to-kosovo-with-a-new-mission-v75gx0hs9


  • #2375
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,143 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    “Irish authorities are being helped by Danish counterparts to repatriate Isil bride Lisa Smith in a series of high-level discussions between the two governments, the Irish Independent can reveal.“

    Why are the Irish authorities so desperate to bring this loon back? Surely she must face justice in Syria first of all?


    presumably the syrian authorities have decided they have bigger priorities?

    Tea drinker wrote: »
    My thoughts too, should be held by Syrian authorities until full facts of her activities in Syria are determined. But if you read the link below even the Kosovo Jihadi-NATO statelet are jailing the returning veterans for a month.

    On that - there's a load of Jihadi and their hangers on bound for NATO statelet in the Balkans, Kosovo.
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/23/world/crime-legal-world/kosovo-police-quiz-several-women-returned-syria-jailing-jihadis/#.XL8pquhKi00
    NATO just love jihadi's.

    The kind of guys NATO likes to enable:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-fighters-return-to-kosovo-with-a-new-mission-v75gx0hs9


    unless the syrian authorities wish to prosecute people, it's not their job to hold foreign terrorists. foreign terrorists are the problem of the countries of origin to deal with.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2376
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    end of the road wrote: »
    unless the syrian authorities wish to prosecute people, it's not their job to hold foreign terrorists. foreign terrorists are the problem of the countries of origin to deal with.
    That's like saying if an Irish person got drunk in Riyadh and bet the ****e out of someone or done a few ould beheadings the Saudi authorities should pack him on to the first Ryanair flight to Dublin.


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  • #2377
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    end of the road wrote: »
    unless the syrian authorities wish to prosecute people, it's not their job to hold foreign terrorists. foreign terrorists are the problem of the countries of origin to deal with.

    The Syrian authorities should line them up and shoot them.


  • #2378
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    end of the road wrote: »
    presumably the syrian authorities have decided they have bigger priorities?

    I imagine they broke laws in Syria and Iraq. Why are they then not being prosecuted there? Why should we be paying for the trial and possible prison time?


  • #2379
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,143 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    I imagine they broke laws in Syria and Iraq. Why are they then not being prosecuted there?


    you would be best to ask the syrian or other authorities that question. but i'd imagine they just do not have the facilities to do it.


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    Why should we be paying for the trial and possible prison time?


    ultimately because they are western citizens and the syrians and others have the right to deport them the same as we have the right to deport foreign criminals.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2380
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    I imagine they broke laws in Syria and Iraq. Why are they then not being prosecuted there? Why should we be paying for the trial and possible prison time?


    We don't have to. But neither do they. They've chosen to deport them instead. So we can either prosecute them or let them go about their lives. Which would you prefer?


  • #2381
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    I imagine they broke laws in Syria and Iraq. Why are they then not being prosecuted there? Why should we be paying for the trial and possible prison time?

    There is 9'000 foreign ex.isis prisoners in Al- Hawl camp in Hasakeh. The are from allover the globe. There are many other ex isis fighters in Hassakeh too, but these would largely be Iraq-Iranian- Syrian-Middle East. So if any of these ex-isis fighters have been identified as having carried out atrocities in the caliphate, you can be damn sure that they have already faced justice. But for the remainer of the "foreign" ex isis, without proof of wrong doing, they just want them gone back to their home Countries....Syria does not have either the facilities or the will to do anything other than deport them ASAP. They are no longer Syria's problem after they leave.


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  • #2382
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    end of the road wrote: »
    you would be best to ask the syrian or other authorities that question. but i'd imagine they just do not have the facilities to do it.






    ultimately because they are western citizens and the syrians and others have the right to deport them the same as we have the right to deport foreign criminals.

    If they aren’t capable of bringing members of ISIS to justice, why do our elected representatives have complete faith in them conducting background checks on the refugees and asylum seekers we are taking from there?

    If they are incapable of bringing ISIS members to justice, then its madness to expect them to be able to give us background checks on their citizens when they arrive here.


  • #2383
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Tea drinker wrote: »
    That's like saying if an Irish person got drunk in Riyadh and bet the ****e out of someone or done a few ould beheadings the Saudi authorities should pack him on to the first Ryanair flight to Dublin.

    If you commit a crime in Saudi ( and I would not advise it...pick another Country, if you are in that frame of mind !! ) You will face the full rigor's of Sharia Law, as many tourists and traveler's have found out to their cost. Saudi Arabia is fully functioning society, with plenty of prison space always available. Compare this with Syria...the War started in 2011, so has been running now 8 years ( and not finished yet either ), Infrastructure pretty much destroyed,,and about as far away from "normal" as you can get. And that's the reason why all the ex isis fighters will be transferred back to their Countries of origin.


  • #2384
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,143 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    If they aren’t capable of bringing members of ISIS to justice, why do our elected representatives have complete faith in them conducting background checks on the refugees and asylum seekers we are taking from there?

    If they are incapable of bringing ISIS members to justice, then its madness to expect them to be able to give us background checks on their citizens when they arrive here.

    it's certainly something you should ask the government about. however i would think that perhapse it would be easier to do back ground checks on syrian citizens then it would be to find absolute proof of someone being involved in killing and the rest as part of isis unless there were witnesses. but ultimately i do not know the answer to your question.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2385
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    If they aren’t capable of bringing members of ISIS to justice, why do our elected representatives have complete faith in them conducting background checks on the refugees and asylum seekers we are taking from there?

    If they are incapable of bringing ISIS members to justice, then its madness to expect them to be able to give us background checks on their citizens when they arrive here.

    From what I understand of the Syrian Refugees that were ( and are ) being accepted by the Irish Government, they have all come from long established refugee camps, as opposed to " Straight from the Libyan Coast ", and they would be able to do some kind of back ground checks on them...also, I think that they prefer family's rather then single people, ( but I'm not 100% certain on this ) I would imagine also that they have been in the camps a long time, some of them for years, so they would have some kind of history. But again....it's a matter for the Government. What complicates it is that it's the 1st time we ( the Country ) have ever been in this kind of situation,,,, and it's still evolving.


  • #2386
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    jmreire wrote: »
    From what I understand of the Syrian Refugees that were ( and are ) being accepted by the Irish Government, they have all come from long established refugee camps, as opposed to " Straight from the Libyan Coast ", and they would be able to do some kind of back ground checks on them...also, I think that they prefer family's rather then single people, ( but I'm not 100% certain on this ) I would imagine also that they have been in the camps a long time, some of them for years, so they would have some kind of history. But again....it's a matter for the Government. What complicates it is that it's the 1st time we ( the Country ) have ever been in this kind of situation,,,, and it's still evolving.
    You have a lot to learn. There is no vetting going on, and the migrants in question typically got into the EU (eg Greece) but failed to get to their preferred destination (eg Germany) but as neither of those countries wants them, we get landed with them (because our leaders want to be seen as model EU politicians)
    It's the 1st time we ( the Country ) have ever been in this kind of situation
    What situation are we in?
    The Syrians were in a bad situation, but their war is more or less over now.


  • #2387
    malinheader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Anyone who thinks background checks are available for these people from wherever they are coming from should ask themselves are these countries capable or even bothered about keeping these kind of records. I think not.
    And anyone who thinks that our government is seriously carrying out checks think again. Was there not a certain Nigerian lady running for an elected post who was then found out to be here illegally.


  • #2388
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,580 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Tea drinker wrote: »
    My thoughts too, should be held by Syrian authorities until full facts of her activities in Syria are determined. But if you read the link below even the Kosovo Jihadi-NATO statelet are jailing the returning veterans for a month.

    There is no "Syrian Authorities", she is in a camp in an area ran basically by the Kurds.

    Even if the Kurds were to someone prosecute her they have gone down the path of leniency, she probably wouldn't serve that long if anything at all.

    Also our terrorism laws have a double jeopardy clause, if she gets convicted abroad no charges can be brought against her if she returns.


  • #2389
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    There is a reception center for "underage" refugees from Syria and Iraq just outside roundwood village in wicklow.

    they constantly go missing from there and there is not information as to where they go.

    some are dropped to clonskeagh mosque and vanish for a few days before returning for a change of clothes and some more money .
    others just tell staff hey are going to england or where ever and are never seen again


    these are true facts and reinforce the fears that a lot of people have about these people being brought into this country

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/gardai-appeal-for-help-to-find-missing-wicklow-teenager-892708.html

    https://www.thejournal.ie/wicklow-teen-missing-3274093-Mar2017/


    http://wicklownews.net/2019/03/appeal-for-missing-teenager/


  • #2390
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    recedite wrote: »
    You have a lot to learn. There is no vetting going on, and the migrants in question typically got into the EU (eg Greece) but failed to get to their preferred destination (eg Germany) but as neither of those countries wants them, we get landed with them (because our leaders want to be seen as model EU politicians)
    What situation are we in?
    The Syrians were in a bad situation, but their war is more or less over now.

    We are speaking about two different situation's here.
    (1) The Syrian Refugees in places like Roscommon. All of these People were taken from camps, and vetted by the UN Refugee Program, before being brought to Ireland.
    (2) People who come here "under their own steam" as it were, and present themselves for Asylum at Airports etc. These people were not vetted on arrival. Maybe after they had applied for Citizenship, some kind of vetting was carried out...I certainly hope so. But it appears that 7/8/9 or 10 years in Direct Provision seem's to do. I just don't know.

    The situation we are in is regarding an Irish Citizen who voluntarily left the Country to join an army who have committed atrocities in another Country, and we have no precedent on how to handle this. Unlike other Countries, who do have laws forbidding it's Citizens from joining and fighting with other Army's /Groups in another Country, we do not have these Law's.

    The Syrian's are still in a bad situation, The major fighting there between isis, SFA etc. has stopped, but now the fighting over the spoil's begins. Last week serious fighting broke out between Iranian Hesbollah and Russian Soldier's over who controlled a road checkpoint, small arm's were used and rockets also were fired. You can add to the mix Turkey and the Kurds, Israel versus Iran. Assad has given "management " of the oil field's to Russia, Iran is to get huge reconstruction contract's, Israel and Russia both want Iran out of Syria, Iran wants to stay in Syria....So, no, I don't think that the war in Syria is over.


  • #2391
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    There is a reception center for "underage" refugees from Syria and Iraq just outside roundwood village in wicklow.

    they constantly go missing from there and there is not information as to where they go.

    some are dropped to clonskeagh mosque and vanish for a few days before returning for a change of clothes and some more money .
    others just tell staff hey are going to england or where ever and are never seen again


    these are true facts and reinforce the fears that a lot of people have about these people being brought into this country

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/gardai-appeal-for-help-to-find-missing-wicklow-teenager-892708.html

    https://www.thejournal.ie/wicklow-teen-missing-3274093-Mar2017/


    http://wicklownews.net/2019/03/appeal-for-missing-teenager/


    Have you any evidence of these true facts? And exactly what fears are you talking about?


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  • #2392
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    MrFresh wrote: »
    Have you any evidence of these true facts? And exactly what fears are you talking about?

    first hand eye witness evidence


    the fear that people are accessing Ireland through deception for unknown reasons
    the fear that some of these persons maybe committed terrorists who are using the asylum system to travel and live undetected for their previous crimes in the IS. the fear that they would carry out attacks either here or in the uk using Ireland as a base.


    Is that clear enough Mr Fresh ?


  • #2393
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    first hand eye witness evidence


    From who?

    mynamejeff wrote: »
    the fear that people are accessing Ireland through deception for unknown reasons
    the fear that some of these persons maybe committed terrorists who are using the asylum system to travel and live undetected for their previous crimes in the IS. the fear that they would carry out attacks either here or in the uk using Ireland as a base.


    Is that clear enough Mr Fresh ?


    Yeah, thanks.


  • #2394
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    MrFresh wrote: »
    From who?





    Yeah, thanks.

    well first hand as it would suggest means from me .........


    and glad i could help you understand :cool:


  • #2395
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    well first hand as it would suggest means from me .........


    and glad i could help you understand :cool:
    Come on, do you believe your own lying eyes or Mrfresh


  • #2396
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    jmreire wrote: »
    (1) The Syrian Refugees in places like Roscommon. All of these People were taken from camps, and vetted by the UN Refugee Program, before being brought to Ireland.
    In example (1) What does the UN refugee program know about somebody who arrives onto a Greek island with no passport? How can they possibly be vetted when the staff don't even know their real names? Let alone anything about their past. Was this guy adequately vetted before he arrived in Germany?
    Amri was able to register in several places under several different identities, complicating the lives of investigators..
    jmreire wrote: »
    (2) People who come here "under their own steam" as it were, and present themselves for Asylum at Airports etc. These people were not vetted on arrival. Maybe after they had applied for Citizenship, some kind of vetting was carried out...I certainly hope so. But it appears that 7/8/9 or 10 years in Direct Provision seem's to do. I just don't know.
    In your example (2) here, this is the typical scenario for Africans, not for Syrians.
    The Syrian's are still in a bad situation, The major fighting there between isis, SFA etc. has stopped, but now the fighting over the spoil's begins. Last week serious fighting broke out between Iranian Hesbollah and Russian Soldier's over who controlled a road checkpoint, ...So, no, I don't think that the war in Syria is over.
    A fight between allies does not constitute a war.
    During WW2 numerous fights broke out between American GI's and British or Australian troops, but only when these troops found themselves thrown together far from the actual fighting. So this kind of fighting is a sure sign that the war is over, or else is very far away.


  • #2397
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    recedite wrote: »
    In example (1) What does the UN refugee program know about somebody who arrives onto a Greek island with no passport? How can they possibly be vetted when the staff don't even know their real names? Let alone anything about their past.

    The people I am speaking about ( in Roscommon for example ) are all Syrian, and identified as such. For your info, most Syrian Refugees are in the surrounding Countries... Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq etc. and the UN are involved in running all of these camps. So how do you know which camp they are from? When a person arrives in a camp, they are registered, and for sure in the camps that I have mentioned above, they will have documentation.So they will have been identified for registration purposes. You will not move outside your own front door in these Countries without Documentation.
    In fact, all of the people who arrived in Greece etc. Had documentation from their country pf origin, but destroyed it when they found out that they could not be returned, if they did not have Citizenship Documentation on them. But the same does not hold true for Syrians in Camps in the surrounding Countries.


    Was this guy adequately vetted before he arrived in Germany?

    I think I remember reading about this one ( link not working, so I can't be sure) He ( and he is not the only one ) was one of the million who accepted Frau Merkels invitation to come to Germany, no strings attached etc.
    And not to be confused with the Syrians here in Ireland, or in the refugee camps.

    In your example (2) here, this is the typical scenario for Africans, not for Syrians.
    Long before the war in Syria... we have had people turning up here in Ireland, claiming asylum. These people were put in Direct Provision center's pending resolution on their claims. Are you suggesting that there is only Africans in those centers?

    A fight between allies does not constitute a war.
    During WW2 numerous fights broke out between American GI's and British or Australian troops, but only when these troops found themselves thrown together far from the actual fighting. So this kind of fighting is a sure sign that the war is over, or else is very far away.

    Yes I can understand friction between "allies" if only because it is only the circumstances that they were fighting on the same side, under different circumstances ( and especially in Syria or other middle east Country's) they might be at each other's throats, which just underlines the point I am trying to make...but friction is one thing...when it escalates from argument to small arms fire to rockets and mortars....that's war, by any definition. Even if it was short lived...but I doubt very much that it will be the last "confrontation". Syria is swimming in munitions... no shortage of them, and there are load's of local Militia's, armed to the teeth, each controlling their own "territories's".
    The war in Syria might be finished as far as you are concerned, but believe me, the peace has not arrived yet.


  • #2398
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Several of the people in Sri Lanka who died for Islam, were Isis returnees.

    Military brains and experience. Contacts for resources and admired by locals for fighting jihad.

    Helped build a network, it will not be the last of its kind.

    The return of Jihadis after Afghanistan beat the Russians had implications across the world that are still playing out.

    One could reasonably argue Isis is part of that.


  • #2399
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Danzy wrote: »
    Several of the people in Sri Lanka who died for Islam, were Isis returnees.

    Military brains and experience. Contacts for resources and admired by locals for fighting jihad.

    Helped build a network, it will not be the last of its kind.

    The return of Jihadis after Afghanistan beat the Russians had implications across the world that are still playing out.

    One could reasonably argue Isis is part of that.

    In one sense.. when the main part of isis were corralled in Syria and had their HQ ( Caliphate) there...they were more interested in having Muslim's from all over the world come and join them. Now that has been destroyed, and they are scattered like seed's all over the World. They are well backed financially ( years of Syrian Oil-kidnapping-antique's-drug's- money) So we have not heard the last of them ( unfortunately ) When I heard about Sri Lanka, my first thought was "ISIS" and they were involved too. When Sri Lankan police and military attacked the hide out of the planners of the attack....they found isis flags and video's, including one showing the leaders of the bombing swearing allegiance to the isis leader, Baghdadi. So no, as you say...they have not gone away, and in fact , they are now in Afghanistan as well...on the positive side,,,, they are fighting against the Taliban LOL Its a strange world......


  • #2400
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    jmreire wrote: »
    In one sense.. when the main part of isis were corralled in Syria and had their HQ ( Caliphate) there...they were more interested in having Muslim's from all over the world come and join them. Now that has been destroyed, and they are scattered like seed's all over the World. They are well backed financially ( years of Syrian Oil-kidnapping-antique's-drug's- money) So we have not heard the last of them ( unfortunately ) When I heard about Sri Lanka, my first thought was "ISIS" and they were involved too. When Sri Lankan police and military attacked the hide out of the planners of the attack....they found isis flags and video's, including one showing the leaders of the bombing swearing allegiance to the isis leader, Baghdadi. So no, as you say...they have not gone away, and in fact , they are now in Afghanistan as well...on the positive side,,,, they are fighting against the Taliban LOL Its a strange world......

    One analyst was saying that Isis commanders for years were busy fighting in Syria or running their State, now they can focus on international attacks rather than on people smoking or the sewerage work in Al Jamr being broken again.

    Ramadan starts in 2 weeks afaik, that's always an prick month in violence.


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  • #2401
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Danzy wrote: »
    Several of the people in Sri Lanka who died for Islam, were Isis returnees.

    Military brains and experience. Contacts for resources and admired by locals for fighting jihad.

    Helped build a network, it will not be the last of its kind.

    The return of Jihadis after Afghanistan beat the Russians had implications across the world that are still playing out.

    One could reasonably argue Isis is part of that.

    If ( and it's big IF.. wishfull thinking ) the US had minded it's own business when the Russians were in Afghanistan,,, the whole world would be in a different place. But...after the drubbing the US got in Vietnam ( which Russia helped to inflict ) the opportunity to even the score was too much to pass up on. So as Russia had helped the Vietnamese, so the US helped the Muhajideen ( not Taliban at this point ) via Pakistan ( playing the same game as Russia did in Vietnam ) The result was Russia had to leave Afghanistan.....and mayhem ensued....different factions fought each other for control, and this continued until the arrival of the Taliban from the Pakistani Madrassa's. In the beginning, they were welcomed with open arms, as they stopped the fighting. But then they started to show their true colours with a very fundamentalist version of Islam...and the rest is History......but Imagine, if the Russians had been left in Afghanistan, what the world would have looked like now?


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