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Tiered Championship

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    #152
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    If the bit in red was true then why have so many counties never ever really challenged at the top end for trophies?

    21 counties have won provincial championships in the recent past. Other counties such as Fermanagh, Tipperary, Louth, Wexford, Longford have made great improvements. There's other things that goes into improving standards in counties but playing teams worse than you isn't one of them.
    Let's get onto what does work. Tell me how Dublin hurling improved.


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    #153
    kksaints
    Registered Users Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭kksaints


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    21 counties have won provincial championships in the recent past. Other counties such as Fermanagh, Tipperary, Louth, Wexford, Longford have made great improvements. There's other things that goes into improving standards in counties but playing teams worse than you isn't one of them.
    Let's get onto what does work. Tell me how Dublin hurling improved.

    Are you including both codes in this or just football? If its both codes that creates something of a false picture as theoretically instead of 33 teams you have to include the fact that most counties get 2 bites of the cherry regarding provincial championships. If its both the 21 increases but so does the 33.


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    #154
    ArnoldJRimmer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭ArnoldJRimmer


    kksaints wrote: »
    Are you including both codes in this or just football? If its both codes that creates something of a false picture as theoretically instead of 33 teams you have to include the fact that most counties get 2 bites of the cherry regarding provincial championships. If its both the 21 increases but so does the 33.

    I'm bored, so I'm going to make the assumption that its over the last 30 years in football

    Kerry
    Cork
    Clare
    Galway
    Mayo
    Roscommon
    Leitrim
    Sligo
    Donegal
    Derry
    Tyrone
    Cavan
    Monaghan
    Armagh
    Down
    Dublin
    Meath
    Kildare
    Offaly
    Westmeath
    Laois

    And in that same period, Limerick, Tipperary, London, Antrim, Fermanagh, Louth and Wexford have made provincial finals


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    #155
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    kksaints wrote: »
    Are you including both codes in this or just football? If its both codes that creates something of a false picture as theoretically instead of 33 teams you have to include the fact that most counties get 2 bites of the cherry regarding provincial championships. If its both the 21 increases but so does the 33.

    Just football.


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    #156
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »
    I'm bored, so I'm going to make the assumption that its over the last 30 years in football

    Kerry
    Cork
    Clare
    Galway
    Mayo
    Roscommon
    Leitrim
    Sligo
    Donegal
    Derry
    Tyrone
    Cavan
    Monaghan
    Armagh
    Down
    Dublin
    Meath
    Kildare
    Offaly
    Westmeath
    Laois

    And in that same period, Limerick, Tipperary, London, Antrim, Fermanagh, Louth and Wexford have made provincial finals

    Thanks. That's 21 counties who've won provincial championships and 28 who've been to a provincial final.


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    #157
    ArnoldJRimmer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭ArnoldJRimmer


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    Thanks. That's 21 counties who've won provincial championships and 28 who've been to a provincial final.

    Of the teams that are left, Longford have had some very good runs in the qualifiers, Wicklow had one or two decent years under Micko, and we had #CarlowRising last year. Which just leaves New York and Waterford


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    #158
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »
    Of the teams that are left, Longford have had some very good runs in the qualifiers, Wicklow had one or two decent years under Micko, and we had #CarlowRising last year. Which just leaves New York and Waterford

    So it's not as bad as people make out really. What counties need is funding and some structures put in place. Imagine a championship with a huge number of counties challenging for provincial and All Ireland titles? That's what we should be looking for.


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    #159
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    So it's not as bad as people make out really. What counties need is funding and some structures put in place. Imagine a championship with a huge number of counties challenging for provincial and All Ireland titles? That's what we should be looking for.
    And that isnt going to happen. Funding alone will not aid teams and close the gap between sides currently ranked 20-32 or so with the top 4/5/6 counties.


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    #160
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    And that isnt going to happen. Funding alone will not aid teams and close the gap between sides currently ranked 20-32 or so with the top 4/5/6 counties.

    Did you find the answer as to how Dublin hurling improved from minnows to contenders yet?


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    #161
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    Did you find the answer as to how Dublin hurling improved from minnows to contenders yet?

    Contenders for what?


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    #162
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Contenders for what?

    Leinster championship anyway, All Ireland contenders not so long ago. How did they do it?


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    #163
    windy shepard henderson
    Registered Users Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    Provincial Championship winners outside the top 16 in the NFL Since new format begin in 1971

    2013 Monaghan Division 3
    2010 Roscommon Division 3 (R)
    2007 Sligo Division 2B
    2002 Armagh Division 2A
    1997 Offaly Division 4
    1996 Mayo Division 3
    1992 Clare Division 2A
    1989 Tyrone Division 3
    1983 Donegal Division 3
    1978 Down Division 2A
    1977 Armagh Division 2A
    1974 Donegal Division 2B /Dublin Division 2A
    1973 Tyrone Division 2A
    1972 Donegal Division 2B

    ALL ireland winners outside the top 16 NFL since 1971
    2002 Armagh
    1974 Dublin

    There is probably 2 weeker counties in that list above that won provincial titles while operating outside the top 16 of the league , clare in 1992 and sligo in 2007 , offaly and roscommon won a title each from division 4 the rest would be fairly formidable football counties monaghan , roscommon and offaly all were fairly strong at different times over the past 45 years since the league format was changed from regional to national there were 4 years over that time that there were open draws

    the fact that only two teams outside the top 16 in the league since 1971 have won an all ireland and only 15 teams have won a provincial title in over 45 years outside the top 16 shows the need for some sort of change

    leitrim were division 1B or Division 2 (both top 16 ) for most of the early 90s before wining connacht


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    #164
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    Carlow are in this year for their few whippings, it will be someone else next year and eventually some people like those on this thread will come along and say what's the point of one of these minnows getting battered every year, let's do like they do in Munster.
    People are saying that somehow counties playing against other counties at or below their standard will help improve them. This is complete nonsense and goes against any common sense. You get better by playing against better teams and gradually upping your game. Offaly are a great example but you can choose any county from the lower tiers. They will never be able to make the jump from the level they're playing at to the upper level. It just won't happen.
    Next you're going to say wasn't that always the way. Well yes, in hurling. Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry and teams such as these were never competing. Then other counties like Laois and Antrim were on the edges but never made a breakthrough. Has the lower tiered competitions improved them? Have they got any better? The answer is no. A definite no.
    Now, there was a county at the same level as these mentioned above. Dublin. What did they do to move so far ahead of the rest? How can they comepte at the top level when they never could before. We all know the answer and that tells us what needs to be done for other 'weaker' counties in both football and hurling.

    Ffs do you not understand the basic concept of promotion? :rolleyes:


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    #165
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    windy shepard henderson wrote: »
    Provincial Championship winners outside the top 16 in the NFL Since new format begin in 1971

    2013 Monaghan Division 3
    2010 Roscommon Division 3 (R)
    2007 Sligo Division 2B
    2002 Armagh Division 2A
    1997 Offaly Division 4
    1996 Mayo Division 3
    1992 Clare Division 2A
    1989 Tyrone Division 3
    1983 Donegal Division 3
    1978 Down Division 2A
    1977 Armagh Division 2A
    1974 Donegal Division 2B /Dublin Division 2A
    1973 Tyrone Division 2A
    1972 Donegal Division 2B

    ALL ireland winners outside the top 16 NFL since 1971
    2002 Armagh
    1974 Dublin

    There is probably 2 weeker counties in that list above that won provincial titles while operating outside the top 16 of the league , clare in 1992 and sligo in 2007 , offaly and roscommon won a title each from division 4 the rest would be fairly formidable football counties monaghan , roscommon and offaly all were fairly strong at different times over the past 45 years since the league format was changed from regional to national there were 4 years over that time that there were open draws

    the fact that only two teams outside the top 16 in the league since 1971 have won an all ireland and only 15 teams have won a provincial title in over 45 years outside the top 16 shows the need for some sort of change

    leitrim were division 1B or Division 2 (both top 16 ) for most of the early 90s before wining connacht

    That's pointless information. Many counties have floated throughout the leagues. Counties have good spells and bad spells. The one thing is that they are always allowed to compete in the proper championship. Without that, nowhere close to 21 conties would have won provincial champiosnhips since 1992.


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    #166
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    Ffs do you not understand the basic concept of promotion? :rolleyes:

    I do. It's just the concept of my post flew right over your head. Read it again.


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    #167
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    I do. It's just the concept of my post flew right over your head. Read it again.


    Well this is what you posted in fairness. If i misunderstood your point then perhaps you might clarify it. Now maybe you were referring specifically to the hurling cships? In that case mea culpa
    Farawayhome wrote: »
    They will never be able to make the jump from the level they're playing at to the upper level. It just won't happen.


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    #168
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    Well this is what you posted in fairness. If i misunderstood your point then perhaps you might clarify it. Now maybe you were referring specifically to the hurling cships? In that case mea culpa

    It's pretty clear what I meant. The level is referring to the standard of play. Maybe you should calm down and take your time to read over posts first.


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    #169
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    It's pretty clear what I meant. The level is referring to the standard of play. Maybe you should calm down and take your time to read over posts first.

    Im quite calm so less of the condescending attitude if you dont mind. Your post was far from clear and i merely asked for clarity
    So the standard of play is going to be less in the lower tiers, well obviously, and its only by competing regularly in the higher tiers will a teams standards improve. Start the process at a lower level playing teams your own level and then you move up where you will get a regular games against higher tier teams as opposed to the one off annual hammering now for many of these teams. L

    Look at Roscommon and Cavan this year? Those 7 games in Division 1 certainly brought them on, thats what lesser teams need, the chance of regular games against better opposition which is what a tiered cship.


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    #170
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    It should be about earning the right to compete at the top level. There's too much of this "everyone gets a medal in the sports day" bull these days but there shouldn't be any God given right to play at the top if you're not good enough.


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    #171
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    It should be about earning the right to compete at the top level. There's too much of this "everyone gets a medal in the sports day" bull these days but there shouldn't be any God given right to play at the top if you're not good enough.


    You mean like the virtually every other country in the world organise their major championships in team sports? What a curious idea


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    #172
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    You mean like the virtually every other country in the world organise their major championships in team sports? What a curious idea

    I know it's a bit out there, but we should go crazy and give it a go.


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    #173
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    Im quite calm so less of the condescending attitude if you dont mind. Your post was far from clear and i merely asked for clarity
    So the standard of play is going to be less in the lower tiers, well obviously, and its only by competing regularly in the higher tiers will a teams standards improve. Start the process at a lower level playing teams your own level and then you move up where you will get a regular games against higher tier teams as opposed to the one off annual hammering now for many of these teams. L

    Look at Roscommon and Cavan this year? Those 7 games in Division 1 certainly brought them on, thats what lesser teams need, the chance of regular games against better opposition which is what a tiered cship.

    This is not the post of a calm person:
    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    Ffs do you not understand the basic concept of promotion? :rolleyes:

    All I can do is laugh at your post there. Did you re-read it? You said "its only by competing regularly in the higher tiers will a teams standards improve" but you are suggesting that we boot at least half the teams out of the real championship so they don't get to regularly play teams in the higher tier. :D
    If you want counties standards to improve and you admit that playing against better opposition achieves this, then why are you advocating dropping these teams out of the championship? Why not call for a different system instead where these counties get regular games against top opposition?


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    #174
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    It should be about earning the right to compete at the top level. There's too much of this "everyone gets a medal in the sports day" bull these days but there shouldn't be any God given right to play at the top if you're not good enough.

    Counties have earned their right. The GAA is not owned by Dublin and Mayo and counties like that. Instead of punishing the 'weaker' counties, let's have a closer look at the financial irregularities ongoing in these 'stronger' counties and sort out a system of fair play.


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    #175
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Forget Dublin and Mayo, this is about the perennially weak teams who should be playing at their own level. If they want to work and improve to play at the top tier then there would be an avenue there. If they don't then let them languish in the second level.


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    #176
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Forget Dublin and Mayo, this is about the perennially weak teams who should be playing at their own level. If they want to work and improve to play at the top tier then there would be an avenue there. If they don't then let them languish in the second level.

    What counties are you talking about? 21 counties have won provincial championships since 1992, we've already gone through the list who've made improvements without winning anything. You want to kick New York and London out of the championship?
    The way to improve standards is to invest money in these counties. If this means taking money off Dublin, Mayo and the likes, then so be it. Financial fair play needs to be introduced.


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    #177
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    That's not good enough though. Even if you won a provincial in the past 25 years, if you're currently in the bottom half of teams you're in the bottom half of teams. No sports team can live off one thing forever.
    It's not as if any team is being shut out anyway. Want to play in the top tier? Then stay in it if you're in it, or get to it if you're not. It's simple really.


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    #178
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    That's not good enough though. Even if you won a provincial in the past 25 years, if you're currently in the bottom half of teams you're in the bottom half of teams. No sports team can live off one thing forever.
    It's not as if any team is being shut out anyway. Want to play in the top tier? Then stay in it if you're in it, or get to it if you're not. It's simple really.

    As the Mayo poster pointed out, to improve standards, you must play against better quality opposition. Obviously, this won't happen if you get booted into this lower tier.
    So the aim of this lower tier clearly doesn't have the interests of the strength of football in these counties at heart. It's about removing them as they are an inconvenience.
    I don't see why anyone from these counties should stand for this, especially as some of the 'stronger' counties have been buying their way to the top.


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    #179
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Teams in every sport get promoted all the time. Not all go straight back down either so it's definitely possible to improve. Simple fact is the championship needs to be changed as it's ridiculously sub standard now, I wouldn't be letting the rubbish dictate that happening or not.


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    #180
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    As the Mayo poster pointed out, to improve standards, you must play against better quality opposition. Obviously, this won't happen if you get booted into this lower tier.
    So the aim of this lower tier clearly doesn't have the interests of the strength of football in these counties at heart. It's about removing them as they are an inconvenience.
    I don't see why anyone from these counties should stand for this, especially as some of the 'stronger' counties have been buying their way to the top.
    A so called weaker side improves far more from playing teams of their own standard nearer theres than the current set up.


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    #181
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Teams in every sport get promoted all the time. Not all go straight back down either so it's definitely possible to improve. Simple fact is the championship needs to be changed as it's ridiculously sub standard now, I wouldn't be letting the rubbish dictate that happening or not.

    The championship may need to be changed but the most important thing to change is the financial irregularities.


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