Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

MayoSalmon · 15-05-2018 5:03pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote:

Funny that, seeing as he has stated as early as 2008 that Hamas would accept a 2 state solution along the 1967 armistice lines, which has been repeated by him and other senior Hamas officials since umpteen times.

Funny that he changed his views then isn't it. He wouldn't be the first terrorist leader in Palestine to say that either.

CruelCoin · 15-05-2018 5:07pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Are you lot getting these deflective nonsense questions in an email from the embassy directly or is Barry disseminating the talking points to you on their behalf?

Just speaking the truth.
Sorry if that bothers you.
But the people throwing firebombs are not going to be peaceful if they made it through.

Your cool-aid, i want some

ThinkProgress · 15-05-2018 5:11pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Palestine is the aggressor?

Fascinating stuff. :rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want, but Hamas has no intention of recognising Israel or seeking a peaceful resolution. They are committed to violence until the bitter end.. so why would Israel not be prepared to defend itself from this terror?

They continue to insert known operatives among large groups of their own civilians, knowing full well the consequences of doing this for those civilians!

Do you realise that Palestinian/Hamas apologists such as yourself actually show more concern about these people than their own actual leadership?

15-05-2018 5:12pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

Just speaking the truth.
Sorry if that bothers you.
But the people throwing firebombs are not going to be peaceful if they made it through.

Your cool-aid, i want some

Yet more of these scenarios that you know will never happen so you can justify these killings. Oh dear.

facehugger99 · 15-05-2018 5:12pm

I really hope the Israeli ambassador told Coveneny where to go this morning.

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 5:14pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Roll your eyes all you want, but Hamas has no intention of recognising Israel or seeking a peaceful resolution. They are committed to violence until the bitter end..

This lie has already been disproven by their willingness to accept a 2 state solution along the 1967 lines and their support for the 2002 and 2007 Arab League peace proposals, as well as their support for the 2001 Taba agreement, which Israel reneged on.

I expect the "Israel is surrounded by countries who want to destroy it" line to be trotted out next despite the 2002 and 2007 Arab League proposals already being highlighted several times in thread.
Proposals backed by all Arab League members and all Palestinian parties.

Zebra3 · 15-05-2018 5:15pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Roll your eyes all you want, but Hamas has no intention of recognising Israel or seeking a peaceful resolution. They are committed to violence until the bitter end.. so why would Israel not be prepared to defend itself from this terror?

They continue to insert known operatives among large groups of their own civilians, knowing full well the consequences of doing this for those civilians!

Do you realise that Palestinian/Hamas apologists such as yourself actually show more concern about these people than their own actual leadership?

Israel is the terrorist.

Ethnicly cleansing Palestinians.

15-05-2018 5:17pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

I really hope the Israeli ambassador told Coveneny where to go this morning.

I wish the opposite. Should be expelled.

CruelCoin · 15-05-2018 5:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet more of these scenarios that you know will never happen so you can justify these killings. Oh dear.

You don't think they were trying to get through?
You don't think people who are angry, worked up and acting violently wouldn't continue to do so? It alright lads, basic human nature doesn't apply here. Men of ultimate restraint apparently.
Some of the worst sackings in history come off the back of an angry mob/army breaching the walls.
Talk about jamming your head in the sand.

tayto lover · 15-05-2018 5:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I wish the opposite. Should be expelled.

The E.U. should expel all the Israeli ambassadors and boycott all their goods.

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 5:19pm

tayto lover wrote: »

The E.U. should expel all the Israeli ambassadors and boycott all their goods.

And impose sanctions on them.

CruelCoin · 15-05-2018 5:22pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

This lie has already been disproven by their willingness to accept a 2 state solution along the 1967 lines and their support for the 2002 and 2007 Arab League peace proposals, as well as their support for the 2001 Taba agreement, which Israel reneged on.

I expect the "Israel is surrounded by countries who want to destroy it" line to be trotted out next despite the 2002 and 2007 Arab League proposals already being highlighted several times in thread.
Proposals backed by all Arab League members and all Palestinian parties.

Sorry, but not correct.

They have said they'd agree to a lasting peace, but still have the rejection of Israel as part of their (updated) founding document.

This line for example is in said document: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea," it said, referring to the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea."

Doesn't seem very conducive to peace talks.

Grayson · 15-05-2018 5:25pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

And impose sanctions on them.

The very minimum is imposing sanctions on the occupied territories and people who invest in israeli businesses in them. That targets sanctions in such a way that the meaning is understood and it's not targeting your average israeli.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 15-05-2018 5:25pm

Why are Israel the only functional and prosperous country in the region?

Have to admire the Jews ingenuity tbh, particularly their irrigation systems in agriculture.

Think of what the land looked liked 70 years ago. They made the desert bloom.

15-05-2018 5:26pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

You don't think they were trying to get through?
You don't think people who are angry, worked up and acting violently wouldn't continue to do so? It alright lads, basic human nature doesn't apply here. Men of ultimate restraint apparently.
Some of the worst sackings in history come off the back of an angry mob/army breaching the walls.
Talk about jamming your head in the sand.

This would actually be hilarious if current events weren't so tragic. It's apologists like yourself that need to grasp some level of reality. Are you seriously suggesting that one of the most advanced militaries in the world doesn't have a sub-lethal response in place to deal with these types of scenarios?

ArchXStanton · 15-05-2018 5:26pm

tayto lover wrote: »

The E.U. should expel all the Israeli ambassadors and boycott all their goods.

They only do that for the Russians...

Zebra3 · 15-05-2018 5:27pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why are Israel the only functional and prosperous country in the region?

Have to admire the Jews ingenuity tbh, particularly their irrigation systems in agriculture.

Think of what the land looked liked 70 years ago. They made the desert bloom.

More propaganda.

You’ve obviously never been to the Negev.

Grayson · 15-05-2018 5:29pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

Sorry, but not correct.

They have said they'd agree to a lasting peace, but still have the rejection of Israel as part of their (updated) founding document.

This line for example is in said document: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea," it said, referring to the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea."

Doesn't seem very conducive to peace talks.

Naftali Bennet has said he wants to annex most of the occupied territories. He's also said when trump was elected that the "era of a two state solution is over"

The Israeli right wing are in ascendance. And they don't want a two state solution. They don't even want to allow dissent inside israel.

Sandor Clegane · 15-05-2018 5:35pm

It's amazing how a people that have suffered such unimaginable pain and suffering in their past can inflict the same onto another.

Realt Dearg Sec · 15-05-2018 5:40pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

I really hope the Israeli ambassador told Coveneny where to go this morning.

Is that the same ambassador who, when confronted with the fact that his country forged Irish passports to carry out illegal extra judicial assassinations, said that he can't promise that they won't do it again? Or is it a new one? Their embassy should have been shut down years ago.

FTA69 · 15-05-2018 5:42pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why are Israel the only functional and prosperous country in the region?

Have to admire the Jews ingenuity tbh, particularly their irrigation systems in agriculture.

Think of what the land looked liked 70 years ago. They made the desert bloom.

The white South Africans made a very similar argument too during the 1980s.

MayoSalmon · 15-05-2018 5:46pm

FTA69 wrote:

The white South Africans made a very similar argument too during the 1980s.

Your point?

Odhinn · 15-05-2018 5:47pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

What do (,,,,,,,,,,,,) fence.

Why do you presume they were all shot trying to get through the fence?

Thinkprogress wrote:

oll your eyes all you want, (........)n actual leadership?

Hamas are a small palestinian faction.

Why is it you were telling us this is such a "complex" issue but are seemingly unable to explain in what way?

deftlefthand wrote:

Why are Israel the only functional and prosperous country in the region?

Have to admire the Jews ingenuity tbh, particularly their irrigation systems in agriculture.

Think of what the land looked liked 70 years ago. They made the desert bloom.

The palestinian mandate was an exporter of agriculture before the state of Israel was created, the majority of it from Arab Palestinian farms.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story664.html

jobbridge4life · 15-05-2018 5:47pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Perhaps if they were dealing with a somewhat reasonable group of people, who were open to the idea of peace... but alas, they only seek further conflict.

It tends to be difficult to have sympathy for a group of people, who have no intention of ever accepting you or tolerating your very existence as a race. I actually think the Israelis show a great deal of restraint, considering the raw hatred towards them!

If Hamas had the same military capabilities, there is no doubt in my mind that they would be slaughtering Israelis in massive numbers!

So your response to the fact that Israel appears, from all available evidence, to be ethnically cleansing a whole people from their land, is nasty generalisations about that people, and to call their slaughter evidence of restraint?

Astounding.

Not to mention the fact the above is morally and logically confused.

Elmer Blooker · 15-05-2018 5:48pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why are Israel the only functional and prosperous country in the region?

America. How do you think a tiny country with a small population can have such a massive military?
Ever hear of Wall Street?

Odhinn · 15-05-2018 5:51pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Your point?

...that it's a pile of shite. Thanks to the Brits, Americans and the fledgling UN we've good records for the mandate for the decade or two before the foundation of the Israeli state, so the various claims re land ownership (it wasn't all owned by absentee turkish landlords), productivity (the myth of the lazy primitive "Arab") and ancestry (Palestinian arabs only arrived in the 1900's to work on jewish owned farms) can be summarily dismissed. It's typical of colonialists to make these sort of claims, however - denigrate the natives language, culture and religion, praise the coloniser as the 'bringer of light'.

ArchXStanton · 15-05-2018 5:55pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

America. How do you think a tiny country with a small population can have such a massive military?
Ever hear of Wall Street?

I'd be pretty pissed as an American taxpayer if my taxes were going to fund that genocide

Gringo180 · 15-05-2018 6:06pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

I really hope the Israeli ambassador told Coveneny where to go this morning.

Hows the weather today in Tel-Aviv?

smurgen · 15-05-2018 6:13pm

America has to be the most hypocritical country in the World.Not 2 months ago they were banging on about chemical attacks in Syria and grandstanding at the U.N and here they're supporting the shooting of protestors and blocking a U.N inquiry.The more I see the more i'm convinced Europe needs it's own military.The U.S cannot be trusted.

MayoSalmon · 15-05-2018 6:18pm

Odhinn wrote:

...that it's a pile of ****e. Thanks to the Brits, Americans and the fledgling UN we've good records for the mandate for the decade or two before the foundation of the Israeli state, so the various claims re land ownership (it wasn't all owned by absentee turkish landlords), productivity (the myth of the lazy primitive "Arab") and ancestry (Palestinian arabs only arrived in the 1900's to work on jewish owned farms) can be summarily dismissed. It's typical of colonialists to make these sort of claims, however - denigrate the natives language, culture and religion, praise the coloniser as the 'bringer of light'.

No your point in relation to your comment on South Africa. Was South Africa some kind of prosperous country before the Dutch arrived?

Odhinn · 15-05-2018 6:27pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

No your point in relation to your comment on South Africa. Was South Africa some kind of prosperous country before the Dutch arrived?

"South Africa" per se did not exist, nor, presumably, the markers for "success" used by Western Europeans at the time.

Snickers Man · 15-05-2018 6:33pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I actually think the Israelis show a great deal of restraint, considering the raw hatred towards them!

If Hamas had the same military capabilities, there is no doubt in my mind that they would be slaughtering Israelis in massive numbers!

Are you for real?

Are you seriously for ****ing real?

You remind me of a Monty Python gag from about 40 years ago. The one about the ancient Welsh martial art of Llap Goch. "The best form of defence is attack, and surprise is a vital element in attack. Therefore the best time to attack someone is before they attack you or before the thought of them attacking you has even entered their head"

Except, I think Monty Python were joking. You seem to want us to take you seriously.

The FACT is that it is Israel that is killing unarmed civilians including women and children in Gaza AGAIN!! Like they have been for 70 years and like they will probably do for another 70 years if the world lets them get away with it.

How many people came on to this bulletin board to defend the actions of Slobodan Milosevic, or the Ustashi, or of the Burmese treatment of the Rohynga? There may be some who come along and ask, or even demand, that we examine each conflict in its overall context, the better to judge its causes and how it might be resolved.

Israel is the only country which has an army of Useful Idiots around the world ready to defend its barbarism and insist indeed that it is upholding the western values of national sovereignty (er, no) human rights (uh -uh) due process (coffee through the nose!) democracy (but some people have more democracy than others) rule of law (it's like a jungle out there).

Why? What is it about Israelis that allows them to get such a pass from so many Europeans and Americans?

Grayson · 15-05-2018 6:34pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

No your point in relation to your comment on South Africa. Was South Africa some kind of prosperous country before the Dutch arrived?

Did it have to be? Does it mean that if a country is less developed people have less rights?

smurgen · 15-05-2018 6:34pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Odhinn wrote:

...that it's a pile of ****e. Thanks to the Brits, Americans and the fledgling UN we've good records for the mandate for the decade or two before the foundation of the Israeli state, so the various claims re land ownership (it wasn't all owned by absentee turkish landlords), productivity (the myth of the lazy primitive "Arab") and ancestry (Palestinian arabs only arrived in the 1900's to work on jewish owned farms) can be summarily dismissed. It's typical of colonialists to make these sort of claims, however - denigrate the natives language, culture and religion, praise the coloniser as the 'bringer of light'.

No your point in relation to your comment on South Africa. Was South Africa some kind of prosperous country before the Dutch arrived?

I don't get your logic.Should we be allowed murder people in devoloping countires is a bid to help development?is this what you think we should be doing?

MayoSalmon · 15-05-2018 6:42pm

Odhinn wrote:

"South Africa" per se did not exist, nor, presumably, the markers for "success" used by Western Europeans at the time.

The same Western markers of success that your happy to apply to historical Palestine though. Your either in or out pal, make up your mind.

MayoSalmon · 15-05-2018 6:47pm

Grayson wrote:

Did it have to be? Does it mean that if a country is less developed people have less rights?

Nobody is inferring that at all. Read the posts back.

Irish Praetorian · 15-05-2018 6:55pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

Are you for real?

Are you seriously for ****ing real?

You remind me of a Monty Python gag from about 40 years ago. The one about the ancient Welsh martial art of Llap Goch. "The best form of defence is attack, and surprise is a vital element in attack. Therefore the best time to attack someone is before they attack you or before the thought of them attacking you has even entered their head"

Except, I think Monty Python were joking. You seem to want us to take you seriously.

The FACT is that it is Israel that is killing unarmed civilians including women and children in Gaza AGAIN!! Like they have been for 70 years and like they will probably do for another 70 years if the world lets them get away with it.

How many people came on to this bulletin board to defend the actions of Slobodan Milosevic, or the Ustashi, or of the Burmese treatment of the Rohynga? There may be some who come along and ask, or even demand, that we examine each conflict in its overall context, the better to judge its causes and how it might be resolved.

Israel is the only country which has an army of Useful Idiots around the world ready to defend its barbarism and insist indeed that it is upholding the western values of national sovereignty (er, no) human rights (uh -uh) due process (coffee through the nose!) democracy (but some people have more democracy than others) rule of law (it's like a jungle out there).

Why? What is it about Israelis that allows them to get such a pass from so many Europeans and Americans?

I'll try to answer as best I can. Firstly to your Monty Python point, the reason people raise this is because they have seen what has happened to the Jewish populations in just about every other country in the Middle East save Israel. It leads people to be understandably wary when suggestion is made that Israel should adopt a certain policy or put up with something.

As for why does it get such a pass, why do people defend it and why does it have an e-army; well I'm going to have to partition off the last point because several other nations have e-armies ready to fight for them, Russia might be the best example but there are a few dozen at it.

Why the pass and why the defence - I suspect for many it's because people struggle to comprehend the vitriol Israel attracts when compared with similar cases around the world. I don't want to go down the rabbit whole of talking 'what-about' but I first found myself particularly drawn to this debate because of the deep seated hatred which Israel seemed to attract and I've not really found a similar example elsewhere; there is no 'Myanmarish entity' or so such, just Israel.

The defence, may be a bit of a misnomer, I suspect you get as a diverse a range of 'defenders' of Israel as you do critics. You could have everything from your hardline Evangelical convinced that there has to be an Israeli state for the 2nd-coming, to those who are defenders owing to a sense of misplaced guilt due to events 70 years ago. My own 'defence' as it were is grounded in a fundamental inability of either the people on the ground, their leaders or the wider international community to come up with a decent alternative to the dread status quo. It's something that strikes me quite a bit about these debates, everyone is happy to vent their outrage and show they hate the right people, but no-one really wants to dig deeper and look at the alternatives. There are certainly plenty of reasons to hate, the death of children and theft make more sense than any, but when all is said and done, we're still left with a set of circumstances that aren't easily changed.

jules5417 · 15-05-2018 6:56pm

Seth Yellow Cobra wrote: »

In our own history we have bloody Sunday in Derry when people decided to protest and British soldiers shot 28 unarmed civilians. The scale of what is happening to Palestinians dwarfs anything that ever happened in our own troubles. Apartheid Israel has brought barbaric treatment to a whole new level

Right so Israel tolerates all religions,sexual orientation,equal rights for women,there are arab mps in the knessat and you call them apartheid. ðŸ˜.

15-05-2018 7:04pm

Interesting discussion overall. Not often your opinion on a topic gets so strengthened by what the other side is saying.

Grayson · 15-05-2018 7:18pm

jules5417 wrote: »

Right so Israel tolerates all religions,sexual orientation,equal rights for women,there are arab mps in the knessat and you call them apartheid. ðŸ˜.

Israel is a kinda weird country. Its both Liberal and incredibly religious. On one hand you have an act like Dana International. On the other hand pride parades are cancelled because of threats from religious extremists on all sides. It nominally gives equal rights but you can't get married outside if your religion.

If course if you want to see proper apartheid you need to look at the territory it controls, not just what's within the official borders. Then there are two tiers. Citizens of Israel and citizens of the occupied territories. There you can see proper segregation.

Edited: Because I was on my phone and typed Prude instead of Pride parades

Grayson · 15-05-2018 7:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Interesting discussion overall. Not often your opinion on a topic gets so strengthened by what the other side is saying.

As combative as its been its one of the more civilised discussions on is real that I've seen.

15-05-2018 7:19pm

jules5417 wrote: »

Right so Israel tolerates all religions,sexual orientation,equal rights for women,there are arab mps in the knessat and you call them apartheid. ðŸ˜.

Their roads system in the West Bank makes a mockery of the thin veneer of 'tolerance'.

Odhinn · 15-05-2018 7:20pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The same Western markers of success that your happy to apply to historical Palestine though. Your either in or out pal, make up your mind.

You seem confused, as I'm talking about the 1930's and 40's with regard to the mandate.

jules5417 wrote:

Right so Israel tolerates all religions,sexual orientation,equal rights for women,there are arab mps in the knessat and you call them apartheid.

Israel controls the lives of millions of palestinians in the West bank and other occupied territories. They have no vote, and no recourse to israeli laws and protections. Israeli colonists in the same area have. There are israeli only roads, areas and so on. This is surely the epitome of an apartheid system.

MayoSalmon · 15-05-2018 7:48pm

A distinction needs to be made between Zionists and Israeli citizens. They are not the same and not all Israelis or even the vast majority would consider themselves Zionists.

Deusexmachina · 15-05-2018 7:52pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

A distinction needs to be made between Zionists and Israeli citizens. They are not the same and not all Israelis or even the vast majority would consider themselves Zionists.

While that is probably fair, it is bewildering how few Israelis condemn the actions of their Government.
Why is that? Where is the outrage?

ArchXStanton · 15-05-2018 7:53pm

I think Israel needs to learn to be more multicultural, open up the borders

BlaasForRafa · 15-05-2018 8:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Their roads system in the West Bank makes a mockery of the thin veneer of 'tolerance'.

The road system is configured like that to minimise attacks on settlers.

BalcombeSt4 · 15-05-2018 8:16pm

A lot of sick maniacs on here talking about Hamas being the problem and winning a so called "PR war".

First of all Hamas as the government of Gaza has a right to resist an armed occupation by military means. This is just as true of the Polish Jews under Nazi military occupation as it is Palestinian Arabs under Israeli military occupation.

But of course there not using armed resistance because it's been such an utter failure in the past & the arms Hamas have compared to Israel is like the weapons the Inca had compared to the Spanish. In 2014 Israel said Hamas fired 5,000 (so called) rockets & 2,000 mortars into Southern Israel. The total sum damage caused was one house destroyed & 15 million euros worth of damage done. The IRA destroyed the city of Manchester with just 1 truck bomb and caused nearly a billion euros worth of damage.

I'm not a supporter of Hamas, I would have preferred the people of Gaza had voted for Fatah the more secular minded organization, but that was the democratic right of the Palestinians to vote for them & they were punished for being democratic. And like David Norris said in his speech to the Senate in 2014 Israel supported Hamas to drive a wedge in the PLO and time & time again Israel has supported radical Islamic groups over the more secular Arab nationalist groups. At the moment they treat injured ISIS fighters in hospitals but refuse to treat Hezbollah fighters. I'm not suggesting they treat either, but the fact they chose ISIS over Hezbollah is telling in itself. Israel views progressive secular Arab groups as bigger danger than radical Islamic extreme ones. And that's nothing new, it's why there such good mates with the Saudi's & there mad Wahhabism ideas.

As for Hamas winning a PR war this is also nonsense. If Hamas was winning a PR war they would be able to capitalize on the groundswell of mass passive emotional support around Europe for the Palestinian cause and turn it into active support.

The tragedy is this is not a hard problem to solve. There's 2 main options that could solve this on-going massacre:
1. Israel could follow International law and withdrawal to it's internationally recognized borders and let a Palestinian state be created.
2. The Palestinian population could be integrated into the whole of the Israel / Palestine territory and have one man, one woman & one vote & create one democratic state.

But the Israeli's instead want to put the people of Gaza "on a diet" and "send them back to the stone age". That's what Israeli Ministers said. This is a slow genocide.

I mean can you imagine if Harold Wilson said were going to put the people of the Falls Road on a diet, or Ted Heath said were going to send Crossmaglen back to the Stone Ages, or Thatcher said the Holocaust should be visited upon the people of Strabane & Derry? The World would think these people are Fascist, genocidal maniacs. And the Israeli government is made of Fascist , genocidal maniacs. Since the Oslo accords each Israeli government has become more and more radical and moved further and further to the far-right

ArchXStanton · 15-05-2018 8:18pm

See Nikki Haley has walked out of a UN conference as the Palestinian envoy began his speech...a big ignorant sow

BalcombeSt4 · 15-05-2018 8:20pm

And unfortunately a vast majority of Israeli's do support the Israeli war crimes, that's why you do not hear much outcry about it in Israel.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180503-83-of-israelis-strongly-support-shooting-of-gaza-protesters/

Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

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