Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

wes

phater phagan wrote: »

It certainly seems an intractable problem, but I don't know how it will ever be solved peacefully. Israel is not going to dissolve ever, and Hamas etc and most of the other Arab nations too want to eliminate them. It is never going to change until the Arab nations etc. accept Israel as a legitimate state. I cannot see that happening.

There has been a full and comprehensive peace deal with the entire Arab league on offer to Israel since 2002:
Text: Arab peace plan of 2002


They chose to ignore it in favor of settlement expansion.

Zebra3

Still waiting on somebody to draw israel’s borders that they are bravely defending.

BalcombeSt4

I think that is the end goal for the Israeli's, you hear a lot about claims in the media how Arabs want to wipe of Israel of the map, Israel wants to wipe the Palestinian's as a people of the face of the earth. Up until the 1990's the Israeli government didn't recognize the Palestinian people. And that's not a small body of opinion either, over 80% of Israeli's support the blockade & the current massacre in Gaza.

Gaza is blockaded on all sides, from the land, air & sea, it's one of the most densely populated places on the planet a million children in Gaza can't get fresh water. David Cameron called it the world's largest open air prison, the most respected paper in Israel called it a ghetto. A border is something that exists between two sovereign nations, Gaza is not a sovereign nation, IDF soldiers are armed guards keeping Palestinians locked inside Gaza.

The situation in South Africa was not as bad as this. Between the late 1950's up until 1994 21,000 people on all sides were killed in the violence in South Africa, at least 8,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza alone since 2000 up to the present day.

There is no Gaza / Israel conflict. There's a slow genocide of Gaza taking place.

One man, one woman, one vote was good enough for the North of Ireland & South Africa, why not Palestine / Israel as well?

Subcomandante Marcos

phater phagan wrote: »

It certainly seems an intractable problem, but I don't know how it will ever be solved peacefully. Israel is not going to dissolve ever, and Hamas etc and most of the other Arab nations too want to eliminate them. It is never going to change until the Arab nations etc. accept Israel as a legitimate state.

1988 - Palestinian National Council accepts 2 state solution along 1967 armistice lines.

1993 - PLO lead by Arafat reiterates their acceptance and desire for 2 state solution along 1967 armistice lines.

2001 - During Taba summit PA with support of all Palestinian parties agree to massive concessions to reach agreement with Israel for a 2 state solution with deviations from the 1967 armistice lines to accommodate a more enforceable and workable border with like for like land swaps. Israel pulls out at the last minute under threat of military coup and the cloud of upcoming elections.

2001 - Ariel Sharon says Israel will never allow a Palestinian state along the 1967 armistice lines.


2002 - Arab League presents peace plan backed by all 22 member states including Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, endorsed by the international community, which calls for a 2 state solution along the 1967 armistice lines, or similar to those agreed at tabah.
Israel pays lip service.

2007 - Arab League restate their 2002 proposal along 1967 lines, or similar to those agreed at Taba.
Israel completely ignores initiative.

2008 - Hamas leadership confirm that they are willing to accept a 2 state solution along 1967 lines or similar.

2010 - Hamas restate support for 2 state solution along armistice lines or similar.

2011 - Hamas restate support for 2 state solution along armistice lines or similar.

2014 - Netanyahu "there will never be a Palestinian state".

2015 - Netanyahu "there will never be a Palestinian state".

2016 - Netanyahu " If I am elected, there will never be a Palestinian state".

2017 - Netanyahu "there will never be a Palestinian state".



So tell me again how it's the Arab nations fault that there's no 2 state solution, or how they all want to destroy Israel, or how the Palestinians won't acknowledge Israel along the 1948 or 1967 armistice lines, or how poor persecuted Israel is the victim and always holding out an olive branch.

The revisionism of Israeli apologists is down right disgusting.

CruelCoin

Seth Yellow Cobra wrote: »

After today's massacre, over 55 dead so far. Absolutely no regard for Palestinians basic human rights.

What do you think would happen if an angry crowd, throwing **** and being violent, managed to get through the fence and then found itself in the middle of an Israeli settlement/town?

Honest answer, please. What do you think would happen?
A - They'd wave their placards around, shout a bit then, point made, go home.
B - Mass murder, looting and rape.

B is vastly more likely to happen, for various reasons.

For that reason alone, Israel is well within its rights, and duty, to shoot at any group trying to breach that fence.

Subcomandante Marcos

CruelCoin wrote: »

What do you think would happen if an angry crowd, throwing **** and being violent, managed to get through the fence and then found itself in the middle of an Israeli settlement/town?

Honest answer, please. What do you think would happen?
A - They'd wave their placards around, shout a bit then, point made, go home.
B - Mass murder, looting and rape.

B is vastly more likely to happen, for various reasons.

For that reason alone, Israel is well within its rights, and duty, to shoot at any group trying to breach that fence.

Are you lot getting these deflective nonsense questions in an email from the embassy directly or is Barry disseminating the talking points to you on their behalf?

Happy Monday

CruelCoin wrote: »

What do you think would happen if an angry crowd, throwing **** and being violent, managed to get through the fence and then found itself in the middle of an Israeli settlement/town?

Honest answer, please. What do you think would happen?
A - They'd wave their placards around, shout a bit then, point made, go home.
B - Mass murder, looting and rape.

B is vastly more likely to happen, for various reasons.

For that reason alone, Israel is well within its rights, and duty, to shoot at any group trying to breach that fence.

Completely agree.

Plus this defensive action sends out the message to other Hamas terrorists that they will face the same if and when they decide to challenge the integrity of Israel's borders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_talks

2013-2014 Peace Talks

According to Peace Now, during the nine months of peace talks Israel set a new record for settlement expansion at nearly 14,000 newly approved settler homes.[90] Despite freezing settlements was not a precondition to restart peace talks,[91][92] Palestinian official Nabil Shaath condemned settlement construction, saying "the settlement activities have made negotiations worthless."[93]

That's almost comical. Can you image the UK and Ireland discussing peace / borders etc. while continuing with plantations.

Straight of the Onion.



Israel was accused by Palestinian officials of trying to sabotage the peace talks by approving nearly 1200 new settlement homes shortly before the negotiations were due to start.[107] Israeli settlements are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.[107] Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev stated that these settlements would "remain part of Israel in any possible peace agreements."[107][108]

The British Foreign Office Minister Alistair Burt said: "We condemn the recent decisions taken by the Israeli authorities to advance plans for 1096 settlement units in the West Bank, and to approve the construction of 63 new units in East Jerusalem. Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, undermine trust and threaten the viability of the two-state solution."[109]

On 13 August, Israel approved another 900 settler homes in East Jerusalem in addition to the 1,200 settlements announced on the 10th.[110] On 30 October, Israel stated it would go ahead with plans to build 3,500 more homes for settlers.[111] Netanyahu then said "any further settlement construction may stir unnecessary clashes with the international community".[112]

Subcomandante Marcos

Happy Monday wrote: »

challenge the integrity of Israel's borders.

What borders? Israel has never declared it's borders.

Irish Praetorian

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Direct ethnic cleansing would have been totally unpalatable, they're not going to do that and incur the wrath of even the United States. What they've done instead is a "salami tactic" of making things progressively worse, slice by slice, for the Arab population in the hopes that they'll f*ck off somewhere else.

Nowhere is this more obvious than in East Jerusalem, where discrimination in housing permits essentially means that even when Arabs own land, they're not allowed by the (illegitimate) local government to actually do anything with it. The result is that eventually they just sell up and leave.

The plan in Gaza, meanwhile, seems to be to simply let it slowly suffocate under its blockade until the population has either fled or diminished to the point of non-viability, helped along of course by the occasional bombing expedition.

Yeah I'm not buying it, as event's in Myanmar have shown this year, you can get away with expelling around a million people and not much will happen to you. I do agree with your broader assessment of what is happening in the region though, I've come to term it displacement because it seems like a fairly novel process and almost unique to Israel.

MayoSalmon

Subcomandante Marcos wrote:

Funny that, seeing as he has stated as early as 2008 that Hamas would accept a 2 state solution along the 1967 armistice lines, which has been repeated by him and other senior Hamas officials since umpteen times.

Funny that he changed his views then isn't it. He wouldn't be the first terrorist leader in Palestine to say that either.

CruelCoin

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Are you lot getting these deflective nonsense questions in an email from the embassy directly or is Barry disseminating the talking points to you on their behalf?

Just speaking the truth.
Sorry if that bothers you.
But the people throwing firebombs are not going to be peaceful if they made it through.

Your cool-aid, i want some

ThinkProgress

Zebra3 wrote: »

Palestine is the aggressor?

Fascinating stuff. :rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want, but Hamas has no intention of recognising Israel or seeking a peaceful resolution. They are committed to violence until the bitter end.. so why would Israel not be prepared to defend itself from this terror?

They continue to insert known operatives among large groups of their own civilians, knowing full well the consequences of doing this for those civilians!

Do you realise that Palestinian/Hamas apologists such as yourself actually show more concern about these people than their own actual leadership?

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

Just speaking the truth.
Sorry if that bothers you.
But the people throwing firebombs are not going to be peaceful if they made it through.

Your cool-aid, i want some

Yet more of these scenarios that you know will never happen so you can justify these killings. Oh dear.

facehugger99

I really hope the Israeli ambassador told Coveneny where to go this morning.

Subcomandante Marcos

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Roll your eyes all you want, but Hamas has no intention of recognising Israel or seeking a peaceful resolution. They are committed to violence until the bitter end..

This lie has already been disproven by their willingness to accept a 2 state solution along the 1967 lines and their support for the 2002 and 2007 Arab League peace proposals, as well as their support for the 2001 Taba agreement, which Israel reneged on.

I expect the "Israel is surrounded by countries who want to destroy it" line to be trotted out next despite the 2002 and 2007 Arab League proposals already being highlighted several times in thread.
Proposals backed by all Arab League members and all Palestinian parties.

Zebra3

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Roll your eyes all you want, but Hamas has no intention of recognising Israel or seeking a peaceful resolution. They are committed to violence until the bitter end.. so why would Israel not be prepared to defend itself from this terror?

They continue to insert known operatives among large groups of their own civilians, knowing full well the consequences of doing this for those civilians!

Do you realise that Palestinian/Hamas apologists such as yourself actually show more concern about these people than their own actual leadership?

Israel is the terrorist.

Ethnicly cleansing Palestinians.

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

I really hope the Israeli ambassador told Coveneny where to go this morning.

I wish the opposite. Should be expelled.

CruelCoin

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet more of these scenarios that you know will never happen so you can justify these killings. Oh dear.

You don't think they were trying to get through?
You don't think people who are angry, worked up and acting violently wouldn't continue to do so? It alright lads, basic human nature doesn't apply here. Men of ultimate restraint apparently.
Some of the worst sackings in history come off the back of an angry mob/army breaching the walls.
Talk about jamming your head in the sand.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

I wish the opposite. Should be expelled.

The E.U. should expel all the Israeli ambassadors and boycott all their goods.

Subcomandante Marcos

tayto lover wrote: »

The E.U. should expel all the Israeli ambassadors and boycott all their goods.

And impose sanctions on them.

CruelCoin

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

This lie has already been disproven by their willingness to accept a 2 state solution along the 1967 lines and their support for the 2002 and 2007 Arab League peace proposals, as well as their support for the 2001 Taba agreement, which Israel reneged on.

I expect the "Israel is surrounded by countries who want to destroy it" line to be trotted out next despite the 2002 and 2007 Arab League proposals already being highlighted several times in thread.
Proposals backed by all Arab League members and all Palestinian parties.

Sorry, but not correct.

They have said they'd agree to a lasting peace, but still have the rejection of Israel as part of their (updated) founding document.

This line for example is in said document: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea," it said, referring to the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea."

Doesn't seem very conducive to peace talks.

Grayson

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

And impose sanctions on them.

The very minimum is imposing sanctions on the occupied territories and people who invest in israeli businesses in them. That targets sanctions in such a way that the meaning is understood and it's not targeting your average israeli.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Why are Israel the only functional and prosperous country in the region?

Have to admire the Jews ingenuity tbh, particularly their irrigation systems in agriculture.

Think of what the land looked liked 70 years ago. They made the desert bloom.

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

You don't think they were trying to get through?
You don't think people who are angry, worked up and acting violently wouldn't continue to do so? It alright lads, basic human nature doesn't apply here. Men of ultimate restraint apparently.
Some of the worst sackings in history come off the back of an angry mob/army breaching the walls.
Talk about jamming your head in the sand.

This would actually be hilarious if current events weren't so tragic. It's apologists like yourself that need to grasp some level of reality. Are you seriously suggesting that one of the most advanced militaries in the world doesn't have a sub-lethal response in place to deal with these types of scenarios?

ArchXStanton

tayto lover wrote: »

The E.U. should expel all the Israeli ambassadors and boycott all their goods.

They only do that for the Russians...

Zebra3

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why are Israel the only functional and prosperous country in the region?

Have to admire the Jews ingenuity tbh, particularly their irrigation systems in agriculture.

Think of what the land looked liked 70 years ago. They made the desert bloom.

More propaganda.

You’ve obviously never been to the Negev.

Grayson

CruelCoin wrote: »

Sorry, but not correct.

They have said they'd agree to a lasting peace, but still have the rejection of Israel as part of their (updated) founding document.

This line for example is in said document: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea," it said, referring to the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea."

Doesn't seem very conducive to peace talks.

Naftali Bennet has said he wants to annex most of the occupied territories. He's also said when trump was elected that the "era of a two state solution is over"

The Israeli right wing are in ascendance. And they don't want a two state solution. They don't even want to allow dissent inside israel.

Sandor Clegane

It's amazing how a people that have suffered such unimaginable pain and suffering in their past can inflict the same onto another.

Realt Dearg Sec

facehugger99 wrote: »

I really hope the Israeli ambassador told Coveneny where to go this morning.

Is that the same ambassador who, when confronted with the fact that his country forged Irish passports to carry out illegal extra judicial assassinations, said that he can't promise that they won't do it again? Or is it a new one? Their embassy should have been shut down years ago.