Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

Zebra3

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Palestinians need to stop burning tires on Israel`s border. They need to start vegetable plots, they need to clean up their rubbish and take an active interest in nature and in their environment.

Ironic given that Israel uses the occupied West Bank as a rubbish dump.

sarcasticus magnificus

Odhinn wrote: »

You might read some of the links posted by me and others, then.

I did, I read the whole thread including the links.
The excuse given that Hamas said civilians were Hamas members so they could compensate their families financially doesn't really work any way you look at it. Even if you ignore the fact that they can just compensate anyone they want really (they are the government after all), there are only two options here:
1. Hamas is telling the truth, which is what I believe.
2. Hamas is lying, so basically no one really knows how many civilians and how many Hamas operatives were really killed, in which case you can't really blame Israel for killing scores of civilians. You just don't have the data.

Odhinn wrote: »

Untrue. Israel faces no sanctions whatsoever.

In these situations, they target young men of arms bearing age and anyone who appears to be an authority figure.

Hasn't the UN security council already decided on an investigation into the events in Gaza?
Relationships with countries such as Turkey get hurt.
Tourism to Israel gets hurt, financial investments get hurt, Israel's reputation gets hurt.
Ireland & Iceland are considering not participating in the Eurovision!!! I would think that's enough of a sanction...

So many downsides and not a single benefit whatsoever.
Also, if the IDF really targeted people according to your criteria, there would have been a lot more dead among the 40,000 there, and Hamas would have gladly announced the number of dead civilians to gain propaganda points.
Lets not forget - the one single purpose behind the whole mess was to bring back the world's attention to the Palestinians (apparently the syrians had enough of it even though a lot more Syrians probably died in these past couple of weeks than Palestinians).

If you ask me, the Palestinians are truly screwed as long as Hamas is in control, and the world should focus its energy and efforts into helping the Palestinians get rid of groups like Hamas & Islamic Jihad for good. Until that happens - I'm afraid there is not much hope in the future for Gaza.

Zebra3

There is no hope for Gaza when it can’t breathe regardless of who runs the place.

It’s a ghetto that the Nazis would be proud to have a noose around.

sarcasticus magnificus

Zebra3 wrote: »

There is no hope for Gaza when it can’t breathe regardless of who runs the place.

It’s a ghetto that the Nazis would be proud to have a noose around.

That's just not true.
Contrary to popular belief, Gaza is not the most densely populated area in the world, not even in the first 3.
More densely populated places include Hong Kong, Singapore & Macau, for example.
None of these places suffer like the Palestinians, and there is only one thing stopping the Palestinians from turning Gaza into the Singapore of the middle east with all the Billions in aid money they receive all the time - their Hamas leaders and their Jihadistic approach towards Israel.

Here is a video of Gaza released by Hamas a couple of years ago. I've seen worse places in Ireland (D1, for example) and Gaza could really become a gem if they weren't so busy directing all their foreign aid towards fighting Israel instead of towards improving people's life in Gaza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ij8h0F6xcM

It's a terrible shame really. our shame (by "our" I mean, the civilised western world).
We see a whole nation of people controlled by a vile murderous terrorist organization, and instead of helping the Palestinians by getting rid of this terrorist organization there are people, political parties, politicians and countries out there who actually support them blindly.
Anyone who supports Hamas helps prolonging Palestinian suffering. It's as simple as that.

BoJack Horseman

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

Anyone who supports Hamas helps prolonging Palestinian suffering. It's as simple as that.

enemy of my enemy etc

The Irish don't mind jihad so long as it's against the Israelis.

DarkScar

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

enemy of my enemy etc

The Irish don't mind jihad so long as it's against the Israelis.

Yeah, 'cos if they're all dead they can't suffer can they. Thanks for that, how caring.

CruelCoin

DarkScar wrote: »

Yeah, 'cos if they're all dead they can't suffer can they. Thanks for that, how caring.

Back when Jordan was in control of the area, there was not a peep about "liberate the palestinians". They didn't do it, and there was no public outcry about them not doing it.

Back when Egypt was in control of the area, there was not a peep about "liberate the palestinians". They didn't do it, and there was no public outcry about them not doing it.

But when it's the Israelis? Everyone goes ape.

Is just bare faced anti-semitism.

BoJack Horseman

DarkScar wrote: »

how caring.

Please don't think for a second I give a salty sh*t about any dead islamist.

Gaza, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan..... it's all the same war for the same ideology.

Make no mistake about how few f*cks I give about some more jihadis being dispatched to their Allah and their 72 virgins.

Zebra3

CruelCoin wrote: »

Back when Jordan was in control of the area, there was not a peep about "liberate the palestinians". They didn't do it, and there was no public outcry about them not doing it.

Back when Egypt was in control of the area, there was not a peep about "liberate the palestinians". They didn't do it, and there was no public outcry about them not doing it.

But when it's the Israelis? Everyone goes ape.

Is just bare faced anti-semitism.

And there wasn’t a peep out of anyone when the Turks controlled Palestine either.

And do you know why? Because none of those occupiers were into ethnic cleansing the Palestinians.

Now put away your race card. The only racists in here are the pro-Israel mob.

Zebra3

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

That's just not true.
Contrary to popular belief, Gaza is not the most densely populated area in the world, not even in the first 3.
More densely populated places include Hong Kong, Singapore & Macau, for example.
None of these places suffer like the Palestinians, and there is only one thing stopping the Palestinians from turning Gaza into the Singapore of the middle east with all the Billions in aid money they receive all the time - their Hamas leaders and their Jihadistic approach towards Israel.

Here is a video of Gaza released by Hamas a couple of years ago. I've seen worse places in Ireland (D1, for example) and Gaza could really become a gem if they weren't so busy directing all their foreign aid towards fighting Israel instead of towards improving people's life in Gaza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ij8h0F6xcM

It's a terrible shame really. our shame (by "our" I mean, the civilised western world).
We see a whole nation of people controlled by a vile murderous terrorist organization, and instead of helping the Palestinians by getting rid of this terrorist organization there are people, political parties, politicians and countries out there who actually support them blindly.
Anyone who supports Hamas helps prolonging Palestinian suffering. It's as simple as that.

LOL. Singapore, and the likes of Macau wouldn’t last five minutes under siege like Gaza is.

And I don’t think there’s too many on here who like Hamas, but remember there was no Hamas until the Palestinians became radicalised under the Israeli occupation.

And deep down Israel and its fanboys actually love having Hamas around.

Deflects attention from the religious extremists in Israel and their crimes.

Now, why don’t the Israeli cheerleaders get back to stabbing photos of a burnt alive two year old’s corpse? Support your friendly Israeli terrorists.

sarcasticus magnificus

Zebra3 wrote: »

LOL. Singapore, and the likes of Macau wouldn’t last five minutes under siege like Gaza is.

And I don’t think there’s too many on here who like Hamas, but remember there was no Hamas until the Palestinians became radicalised under the Israeli occupation.

And deep down Israel and its fanboys actually love having Hamas around.

Deflects attention from the religious extremists in Israel and their crimes.

Now, why don’t the Israeli cheerleaders get back to stabbing photos of a burnt alive two year old’s corpse? Support your friendly Israeli terrorists.

You're missing the point.
Singapore and Macau are not under siege because they don't routinely go out and attack their neighbours. If they did, I don't think their condition would be much different than Gaza's. Considering the Chinese are not the Israelis, Macau's fate would probably have been much worse than Gaza's.
If the Palestinians concentrated on rebuilding Gaza and improving their life quality instead of spending all their foreign aid on new and improved ways to attack the Israelis, there would be no need for an Israeli blockade. More importantly for the Palestinian cause - there would be no viable justification for a blockade.

CruelCoin

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

If the Palestinians concentrated on rebuilding Gaza and improving their life quality instead of spending all their foreign aid on new and improved ways to attack the Israelis, there would be no need for an Israeli blockade. More importantly for the Palestinian cause - there would be no viable justification for a blockade.

Some might not be aware that it is also Egypt which enforces the blockade at seas, and along the southern border.

Nobody wants to give Hamas free access. Not the jews, not their fellow muslims.

Zebra3

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

You're missing the point.
Singapore and Macau are not under siege because they don't routinely go out and attack their neighbours. If they did, I don't think their condition would be much different than Gaza's. Considering the Chinese are not the Israelis, Macau's fate would probably have been much worse than Gaza's.
If the Palestinians concentrated on rebuilding Gaza and improving their life quality instead of spending all their foreign aid on new and improved ways to attack the Israelis, there would be no need for an Israeli blockade. More importantly for the Palestinian cause - there would be no viable justification for a blockade.

You’re missing the point.

The Palestinians were living in Palestine minding their own business and at peace.

It was European jews who flooded into Palestine to establish their own state on top of Palestine. The European jews attacked the Palestinians and drove them from their homes.

And yet you reckon the Palestinians are to blame?

So either you are ignorant of history or you are racist who thinks the Palestinians don’t deserve justice.

Odhinn

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

Hasn't the UN security council already decided on an investigation into the events in Gaza?
Relationships with countries such as Turkey get hurt.
Tourism to Israel gets hurt, financial investments get hurt, Israel's reputation gets hurt.
Ireland & Iceland are considering not participating in the Eurovision!!! I would think that's enough of a sanction...
.

The US will veto anything that penalises Israel. In the past even a condemnation has been vetoed. Hot air from other states matters not a whit.

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

If you ask me, the Palestinians are truly screwed as long as Hamas is in control, and the world should focus its energy and efforts into helping the Palestinians get rid of groups like Hamas & Islamic Jihad for good. Until that happens - I'm afraid there is not much hope in the future for Gaza.

I won't.

Hamas is only in control in Gaza - it's a minority faction. You can take a long look at the West Bank for an idea of what co-operating with the Israeli state gets you.

Odhinn

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

............

Gaza, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan..... it's all the same war for the same ideology.

Make no mistake about how few f*cks I give about some more jihadis being dispatched to their Allah and their 72 virgins.

You really have no notion of what you're talking about, do you?

Odhinn

Reading some of the comments here you'd be forgiven for thinking that the palesinians are all in Gaza and that Hamas is the governing majority group. And that palestinians are the aggressors.

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

You're missing the point.
Singapore and Macau are not under siege because they don't routinely go out and attack their neighbours. If they did, I don't think their condition would be much different than Gaza's. Considering the Chinese are not the Israelis, Macau's fate would probably have been much worse than Gaza's.
If the Palestinians concentrated on rebuilding Gaza and improving their life quality instead of spending all their foreign aid on new and improved ways to attack the Israelis, there would be no need for an Israeli blockade. More importantly for the Palestinian cause - there would be no viable justification for a blockade.

I rest my case.

Zebra3

Some morons seem to think that all Palestinians are muslims and don’t seem to know that many of them are christians.

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

Is just bare faced anti-semitism.

When all else fails........

Predictable.

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

Some morons seem to think that all Palestinians are muslims and don’t seem to know that many of them are christians.

Many as in 10%,20%

Less than?

Odhinn

Gatling wrote: »

Many as in 10%,20%

Less than?

Does it matter? The Israeli states expansionism doesn't particularily care what ethos the Palestinians it targets follow.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

enemy of my enemy etc

The Irish don't mind jihad so long as it's against the Israelis.

Revealing categorisation of the conflict on your part. Alternatively we can spot the agenda of those who'd like to spin the wholesale land grab, subjugation, expulsion, colonisation and dehumanisation of the Palestinian people out of the political sphere and into some bizarre "it's religious so we can never do anything about it" category. How convenient for bastard fúckwit colonisers - be they Israeli our own own beloved brand of bastard fúckwit colonisers, the British - that their political/ethnic cleansing deeds are, after the overthrow, suddenly beyond political solution because "it's a religious conflict". We've seen it all before, and heard all the coloniser's dodgy portrayals of settler-colonial conflicts as "religious" for the very same reason. Likud Says No & Ulster Says No have precisely the same motivation: what we have we hold and as long as we keep the conflict defined out of the political sphere, we avoid having to give concessions.


Noam Chomsky, who unlike most cheerleaders of Israeli war crimes actually lived on a Kibbutz in Palestine as a young man, in an interview with David Barsamian following a visit to the remainder of Britain's Irish colony in 1993, was right on the money with his comparison and why all historically aware Irish people would sympathise with the Palestinians - and why Israeli flags fly today in loyalist/British/settler-colonial areas fly in the Six Counties. Palestinians had their Nakba/catastrophe; the Irish had their Longbhriseadh/ship wreck:

DB: Just to back up a little bit. You also went recently to Northern Ireland . What did you find there in terms of economic conditions and the political situation?

NC: I spent my time either in West Belfast, which is mainly Catholic and a very repressed area, or southern parts of Northern Ireland, within what is called "bandit country," places where the British troops can only go in in fairly substantial force and where there have been plenty of atrocities. I talked to human rights activists. I was at the Center for Human Rights talking to Gerry Adams, the head of Sinn Féin, and others, and to a lot of people. The country is under military occupation. There's no secret about that. There are armored personnel carriers going through the streets, armed blockades right in the middle of Belfast center, etc. There is plenty of killing by paramilitaries on both sides. There is open debate about the extent to which or if the British forces are connected to the loyalists, the mainly Protestant paramilitary.... In the Catholic community, listening to the stories was very much like walking around the West Bank a couple of years ago, the same kinds of humiliation and beating and torture. There aren't a lot of ways to have your boot on someone's neck. It always turns out about the same.

DB: It echoes the religious conflicts of the Middle Ages in Europe.

NC: The British, back in the mid- seventeenth century, carried out real ethnic cleansing. The indigenous population in what's now Ulster was mostly driven out, often into central Ireland.

DB: Was there settler colonialism?

NC: Yes. They brought in Scottish and other British settlers to replace them. They took most of the fertile land. Traveling through South Armagh, near the border, I spent some time with a local civil rights group that was set up after several young men were murdered by British troops, who are now coming up for trial, years later. A farmer whose son had been killed took me around and showed me what things were like. They raise cattle, but they can only raise young cattle, because the earth is too infertile to grow grass good enough to raise adult cattle. So they raise calves and send them off somewhere. Every acre is completely reclaimed. You've first got to pull out all the rocks and move them somewhere else and try to level the ground. These are the areas to which the Irish were driven, off into the rocky hills, by the British who cleansed the fertile areas and brought in their own settlers. It was a couple of centuries ago, but the residue is still there.(David Barsminian, Interview with Noam Chomsky, Keeping the rabble in line (1994)

Gatling

Odhinn wrote: »

Does it matter? The Israeli states expansionism doesn't particularily care what ethos the Palestinians it targets follow.

Yes it actually does .

Surely the many Christians don't want to be fodder for hamas's final goal whatever that is Christians don't fair too well in Islamic states with Sharia law

Odhinn

Gatling wrote: »

Yes it actually does .

Surely the many Christians don't want to be fodder for hamas's final goal whatever that is Christians don't fair too well in Islamic states with Sharia law

....Hamas, hamas, hamas, hamas. Hamas!!!!

Surely they long for the days when the secular groups within the PLO were more active. Certainly they have suffered far more from Israeli activity than palestinian.

Gatling

Odhinn wrote: »

....Hamas, hamas, hamas, hamas. Hamas!!!!

They are the ones in control are they not ,

Odhinn

Gatling wrote: »

They are the ones in control are they not ,

In control of Gaza. There are 3.3 or so million palestinians in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

realitykeeper

Zebra3 wrote: »

Ironic given that Israel uses the occupied West Bank as a rubbish dump.

Rubbish is a valuable raw material. Where is the gratitude?

nacho libre

To think Israel once supported Hamas because they saw the PLO as a greater threat. The irony is that the Israeli right wing nationatlists need Hamas to be in power as do there supporters posting here too. Without hamas the deflection tactics would not work. Nkante and the likes of brimal are not keen to talk about how far co-operation in the West Bank has gotten Palestnians. I wonder why that is?

Kuva

Easy fix this, you get a map and you scribble out Israel and Gaza and the border line and then you call the whole block....clitterland and you tell them all "now lads, go and get along.

Odhinn

Kuva wrote: »

Easy fix this, you get a map and you scribble out Israel and Gaza and the border line and then you call the whole block....clitterland and you tell them all "now lads, go and get along.

Sure what could go wrong?

sarcasticus magnificus

Zebra3 wrote: »

You’re missing the point.

The Palestinians were living in Palestine minding their own business and at peace.

It was European jews who flooded into Palestine to establish their own state on top of Palestine. The European jews attacked the Palestinians and drove them from their homes.

And yet you reckon the Palestinians are to blame?

So either you are ignorant of history or you are racist who thinks the Palestinians don’t deserve justice.

Oh, I'm familiar with the history. I won't be dragged to a never ending argument about who was there first, who did what to whom, who owned the land 2000 years ago and all that, especially since you'll probably claim that in 1948 the newly created Israel violently and murderously went out and attacked every Arab in the neighbourhood plus 6 Arab countries...
Keep living in the past and you will have no future and unfortunately the Palestinians are living in the past. Israel won't go anywhere and they need to start understanding that and accepting it.