Tiered Championship

ArnoldJRimmer · 22-05-2019 7:16pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

No they dont have any 'right' as such. Thats a ridiculous notion. Most of these counties will rarely be seen live under the current system anyway.

And our licence fee isnt really extortionate in comparison with other European countries but thats off topic i suppose

If the people in Ireland are going to be subjected to a communist policy, then they should also get the benefits. RTE currently grudgingly show highlights, and used to feature smaller teams in their live coverage of the provincial championship. You only have to look at the lack of respect they show the Joe McDonagh Cup, which has been excellent, to see the road football will go down

Donald Trumped · 23-05-2019 3:56pm

Very disappointing to see RTE having a biased view about the "positive merits" of a two-tiered football championship. They should be ashamed of themselves in Donnybrook, when you consider how much they have turned a blind eye on the likes of the Joe Mcdonagh, Christy Ring, Nicky Rackards and Lory Meagher cups, in hurling's lower tiers. There is enough to suggest that our national broadcaster will do something similar if these controversial plans are set in stone in football come 2020 and beyond.

What will happen to the Ulster Championship and other provincial championships, if this proposal gets the necessary support at Congress? I can guarantee you one thing though. Expect a mass exodus of young inter-county footballers post-League to pastures new, outside of the Emerald Isle or in some cases in particular the counties who are involved in "Tier 2", won't commit at all to the county cause in any circumstances. In my opinion the provincial championships should do this.

In Leinster put the likes of Dublin, Kildare and Meath in one group with the top 2 in that group qualifying for the Leinster semi-final. The second pot should contain another 4 teams and the third pot contain 4 teams also. The teams are ranked in order of their finishing position in the league of that same year so you could have 4 teams from divisions 2/3 in the league group 2 and 4 other teams from division 3/4 in group 3, depending on how they finish in the league. The top team in pot 2 automatically qualify for the semi-final, while the 2nd team in group 2 meet the top team in group 3 to decide the 4th and final Leinster semi-finalist.

I think that this format should be modeled in the other 3 provinces. In Munster have Cork and Kerry or the last 2 Munster finalists of the previous year, play a preliminary round, with the winner gaining automatic qualification for the Munster final. While the other 4 Munster counties play-off in a round robin championship, with the winner of this play the loser of Cork or Kerry for a place in the Munster final.

In Connacht I would remove New York from the championship. Therefore you will have Galway, Roscommon and Mayo in group 1, with the top team qualifying automatically for the Connacht final. In group 2 you will have London, Sligo and Leitrim with the top team here playing the second team in group one for a place in the Connacht final.

In Ulster I would have 3 groups of three. Group one would contain the top 3 in the position they finish the league, in this year's case it would be Tyrone, Donegal and Cavan with the top 2 in that group qualifying for the Ulster semi-final. In group 2 that would contain Armagh, Donegal and Fermanagh. Group 3 would have Down, Antrim and Derry. The top team in group 2 also qualify for the Ulster semi-final while the top team in group 3 would play the second team in group 2, the winners of that qualifying them for a Ulster semi-final place too.

Personally to say I'm not a fan of the two-tiered championship would be an understatement. My proposals in the above may be ridiculed or praised. But in light of the reasons that I explained in the first two paragraphs, then I feel that any plans for a two or three tiered championship must be resisted. The ideas that I suggested in the above could benefit football in general and ensure more coverage of football in the early part of the championship, both on the broadcast and newsprint media and will also ensure that the provincial championship can be viable and ensure more competitive games which all GAA fans want to see. I look forward to see what other posters think.

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-05-2019 2:16pm

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

If the people in Ireland are going to be subjected to a communist policy, then they should also get the benefits.

As an old school leftie im intrigued by this, this seems to have passed me by

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

RTE currently grudgingly show highlights, and used to feature smaller teams in their live coverage of the provincial championship. You only have to look at the lack of respect they show the Joe McDonagh Cup, which has been excellent, to see the road football will go down

Im not sure they did feature smaller teams, when exactly? And really its up to the GAA to insist on coverage of the lower tiers as part of the overall package

Farawayhome · 24-05-2019 2:24pm

It's time for people to admit their motives. What do you want? Why is this being pushed? Is it a breakaway attempt, offload the 'minnows'? A lot of those who have gone to the media about this are from the 'bigger' counties. Do they have the interests of the lower ranked teams at heart? Then there are those from some division 4 counties who support it, counties like Wicklow, Waterford etc offloading 5 or 6 teams from there won't make a difference.

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-05-2019 2:32pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

It's time for people to admit their motives. What do you want? Why is this being pushed? Is it a breakaway attempt, offload the 'minnows'? A lot of those who have gone to the media about this are from the 'bigger' counties. Do they have the interests of the lower ranked teams at heart? Then there are those from some division 4 counties who support it, counties like Wicklow, Waterford etc offloading 5 or 6 teams from there won't make a difference.

From my point of view (Mayo btw) its not necessarily about helping the weaker counties its about correcting the imbalanced and ridiculous structure of a championship which was designed to suit the needs of the 1880's ffs. I want to see the best teams fighting it out over the summer with big games every weekend. All the top temas should have exactly the same route to the super 8's/semi finals, whatever. I also want to see extensive promotion of and reasonable TV coverage of the second and third tiers, there would be some cracking games in these. The provincials need to go and teams need to be graded according to ability. I cannot think of any other major sport in any country that runs their main championships in such a ridiculous manner.

And yes, if Mayo fall behind in 5 or 10 years time then i would be happy to see them compete in a second tier and fight to get back to the top table as obv relegation and promotion will be part of a any new structure.

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-05-2019 2:40pm

gaatheformat wrote: »

Problem with round-robin is eventually attendances will significantly drop,Supporters are ruthless and want big knock out games - Whatever format is trialled will need to reduce the amount of dead rubbers as possible and try and keep games as important as possible.

Well thats simply not borne out by the increasing attendances in the NFL over recent years. I do however agree that the amount of possible dead rubbers needs to be minimised which shouldnt be that difficult to do.

ArnoldJRimmer · 24-05-2019 3:06pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

As an old school leftie im intrigued by this, this seems to have passed me by

Im not sure they did feature smaller teams, when exactly? And really its up to the GAA to insist on coverage of the lower tiers as part of the overall package

I won't derail the thread by talking about the outdated notion of a state sponsored station

.

Found two examples off the top of my head, in 2007, I see Longford, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Waterford, and a D3 Cavan. In 2013, Tipperary and Wicklow. And I remember a ton of teams being shown in various qualifiers too, like Antrim, Sligo and Offaly. The only complaints I remember hearing at the time was about the over saturation of the Ulster Championship rather than poor quality games

https://www.rte.ie/about/en/press-office/press-releases/2007/0405/292245-tvsportapril2007/

https://www.sportsnewsireland.com/gaa/rte-announce-gaa-championship-coverage-for-2013-2013-05-13/

And agreed on your last point, thats up to the GAA. But I wouldn't trust them to do so for one second. If properly promoted and supported by the GAA, I think a secondary competition would be great, but where's the money in that?

Farawayhome · 24-05-2019 4:56pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

From my point of view (Mayo btw) its not necessarily about helping the weaker counties its about correcting the imbalanced and ridiculous structure of a championship which was designed to suit the needs of the 1880's ffs. I want to see the best teams fighting it out over the summer with big games every weekend. All the top temas should have exactly the same route to the super 8's/semi finals, whatever. I also want to see extensive promotion of and reasonable TV coverage of the second and third tiers, there would be some cracking games in these. The provincials need to go and teams need to be graded according to ability. I cannot think of any other major sport in any country that runs their main championships in such a ridiculous manner.

And yes, if Mayo fall behind in 5 or 10 years time then i would be happy to see them compete in a second tier and fight to get back to the top table as obv relegation and promotion will be part of a any new structure.

You don't have to boot teams out to change the structure of the championship. Teams who are not deemed worthy of sharing a pitch with the big dogs will struggle big time. For some there will be no way back. It will end their chances of competing at the top permanently. What we have here are people looking for a short term fix. It might excite you for a few years but what it will effectively do is create a mirror of the hurling championship. It will be a disaster.

Fr Tod Umptious · 24-05-2019 5:13pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

You don't have to boot teams out to change the structure of the championship. Teams who are not deemed worthy of sharing a pitch with the big dogs will struggle big time. For some there will be no way back. It will end their chances of competing at the top permanently. What we have here are people looking for a short term fix. It might excite you for a few years but what it will effectively do is create a mirror of the hurling championship. It will be a disaster.

But some teams in the current structure have never competed at the top

Leitrim have advanced beyond Connacht twice in 92 years
Sligo have won three Connacht titles in 91 years

A sound beating in an All Ireland quarter final in 2011 by Kerry is as far as Limerick have progressed in 123 years.

Clare have done a little better by getting soundly beaten in a QF in 2017, between that and their first Munster title in 1917 then won a single Munster championship.

I could go on.

Farawayhome · 24-05-2019 5:23pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But some teams in the current structure have never competed at the top

Leitrim have advanced beyond Connacht twice in 92 years
Sligo have won three Connacht titles in 91 years

A sound beating in an All Ireland quarter final in 2011 by Kerry is as far as Limerick have progressed in 123 years.

Clare have done a little better by getting soundly beaten in a QF in 2017, between that and their first Munster title in 1917 then won a single Munster championship.

I could go on.

No you couldn't. Clare are a division 2 team, they've made great strides. Are division 2 counties getting the chop now? It's like Brolly talking about Roscommon getting booted out last year after taking a few beatings. They were a division 1 county this year, they've won the Connacht championship recently. The callers for the monstrosity are all over the place.
The truth is that there are not many counties who have been consistently struggling. Dropping those teams won't make a difference.

Farawayhome · 24-05-2019 5:31pm

Just have a look at division 3 and 4 teams from this year.

Division 4
Derry - All Ireland champions in the 90's. Regular Ulster champions.
Wexford - Struggling now but were getting to Leinster finals and the latter stages of the All Ireland in the recent past.

Division 3
Westmeath - Leinster champions in the 00's, Leinster finalists for a few years in a row until last year.
Laois - Basically the same as Westmeath
Down - Kick them out with their history?
Louth - Last winners of the Leinster championship apart from Dublin

I could go on! These counties shouldn't be punished because the 'big' counties view them as an inconvenience.

OldMrBrennan83 · 24-05-2019 5:40pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Just have a look at division 3 and 4 teams from this year.

Division 4
Derry - All Ireland champions in the 90's. Regular Ulster champions.
Wexford - Struggling now but were getting to Leinster finals and the latter stages of the All Ireland in the recent past.

Division 3
Westmeath - Leinster champions in the 00's, Leinster finalists for a few years in a row until last year.
Laois - Basically the same as Westmeath
Down - Kick them out with their history?
Louth - Last winners of the Leinster championship apart from Dublin

I could go on! These counties shouldn't be punished because the 'big' counties view them as an inconvenience.

Meath were the last non Dublin Leinster winners. Beat Louth in the final that year, was the run-in goal robbery I think.

Farawayhome · 24-05-2019 5:44pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Meath were the last non Dublin Leinster winners. Beat Louth in the final that year, was the run-in goal robbery I think.

Yes, I've awarded that title to Louth.

Fr Tod Umptious · 25-05-2019 12:40pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

No you couldn't. Clare are a division 2 team, they've made great strides. Are division 2 counties getting the chop now? It's like Brolly talking about Roscommon getting booted out last year after taking a few beatings. They were a division 1 county this year, they've won the Connacht championship recently. The callers for the monstrosity are all over the place.
The truth is that there are not many counties who have been consistently struggling. Dropping those teams won't make a difference.

Ok lets look at Clare
Then have risen from Div 4 in 2014 to spending 2017 and 2018 in Div 2
Good progress in the league obviously

But lets look at their Championship record in that period

2014 - League = Promoted from Div 4
Championship
Lost to Kerry (Div 1)
Beat Calrlow (Div 4)
Lost to Kildare (Div 1)

2015 - League = Div 3
Championship
Beat Limerick ( Div 3)
Lost to Cork (Div 1)
Lost to Longford (Div4)

2016 - league = Promoted from Div 3
Championship
Beat Limerick ( Div 3)
Lost to Kerry (Div 1)
Beat Laois (Div 2)
Beat Sligo (Div 3)
Beat Roscommon (Div 1)
Lost kerry (Div 1)

2017 - League = Div 2
Championship
Beat Limerick (Div 4)
Lost Kerry (Div 1)
Beat Laois (Div 3)
Lost Mayo (Div 1)

2018 - League = Div 2
Championship
Beat Limeick (Div 4)
Lost Kerry (Div 1)
Beat Offaly (Div 3)
Lost Armagh (Div 3)

So with the exception of beating Roscommon in 2016 they have done very little other than beat teams in the same or lower division and lose to teams in higher or lower divisions
Even though they beat Div 2 Loais in 2016 Laois were relegated from Div 2 and Clare promoted to Div 2 , so there was little between them.

So the great strides they made were in a tiered competition (the league) and not the major competition

Farawayhome · 25-05-2019 1:18pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ok lets look at Clare
Then have risen from Div 4 in 2014 to spending 2017 and 2018 in Div 2
Good progress in the league obviously

But lets look at their Championship record in that period

2014 - League = Promoted from Div 4
Championship
Lost to Kerry (Div 1)
Beat Calrlow (Div 4)
Lost to Kildare (Div 1)

2015 - League = Div 3
Championship
Beat Limerick ( Div 3)
Lost to Cork (Div 1)
Lost to Longford (Div4)

2016 - league = Promoted from Div 3
Championship
Beat Limerick ( Div 3)
Lost to Kerry (Div 1)
Beat Laois (Div 2)
Beat Sligo (Div 3)
Beat Roscommon (Div 1)
Lost kerry (Div 1)

2017 - League = Div 2
Championship
Beat Limerick (Div 4)
Lost Kerry (Div 1)
Beat Laois (Div 3)
Lost Mayo (Div 1)

2018 - League = Div 2
Championship
Beat Limeick (Div 4)
Lost Kerry (Div 1)
Beat Offaly (Div 3)
Lost Armagh (Div 3)

So with the exception of beating Roscommon in 2016 they have done very little other than beat teams in the same or lower division and lose to teams in higher or lower divisions
Even though they beat Div 2 Loais in 2016 Laois were relegated from Div 2 and Clare promoted to Div 2 , so there was little between them.

So the great strides they made were in a tiered competition (the league) and not the major competition

So you're confirming that you want to cut division 2 teams as well? Only division 1 teams will make the cut? Are you from a division 1 county?

In 2013 Clare lost to Cork by 9 points and Laois by 16 points. In 2012 they beat Limerick, then lost to Cork by 12 points and Kerry by 19. In 2011 they lost to Cork by 13 and then to Down. In 2010 they lost to Waterford and then Offaly.

That's the level they were at, they were whipping boys. They hadn't won a game outside Munster since 2006 (they were booted out into the Tommy Murphy Cup in 2007 and 2008)! They have made huge strides to get to the level they are at. What was the point in the effort they put in if they are going to be demoted now? Was the Tommy Murphy cup any use to them or did they make improvements by competing in the real championship?

OldMrBrennan83 · 25-05-2019 3:00pm

I quite like this layout and calendar. Plus the naming is right as it's what has worked for decades at club level.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0524/1051431-future-of-football-blueprint-for-a-3-tier-championship/

Bass Reeves · 25-05-2019 6:11pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

I quite like this layout and calendar. Plus the naming is right as it's what has worked for decades at club level.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0524/1051431-future-of-football-blueprint-for-a-3-tier-championship/

Brain fart. County players would be involved with County from start of year until July. Teams qualified out of the league system would have use provincial championships to get ready for all Ireland series. Looking at the club calender they would have to play there total County championships in 3-5 weeks.

Leave existing league alone. Abolish provinvcial championships. Use his senior, Intermediate and Junior groups as an example split each group in two and play round robin. Then you have two choice.

Out of the senior groups top two teams play finals and semi finals,

Other choice winner of each group go straight to semi finals. Second placed senior teams play Junior and Intermediate champions for other two semi final spot. Flaw in this is that it is unlikely either of these would ever beat a second placed team

Normal promotion and relegation between grades will allow teams to progress over time Ideally you would like 12 teams at senior grade as well. This would allow you to have winner progressing to semi and 2nd and 3rd placed teams playing for other semi final spot. But you would have some dead games like a in Lenister hurling Carlow V Kilkenny and Galway

6 teams would allows 5 rounds of games with quarter finals, semi and finals it could be run over 11-12 weekends and still allow county managers a 2-3 week preperation period in May/early June if All ireland Final was the last Sunday in June or 1st Sunday in September.

This would take away time pressure from the system. Loads of people fail to grasp that most clubs play without County players in Club league already. The system proposed by Aidan O'Rourke would mean all Club championships would have to be played on a knockout basis. U20 championship would be virtually impossible to hold only for Senior Counties as mosut Intermediate and junior counties would strip any successful U20's team of players.

ArnoldJRimmer · 25-05-2019 6:33pm

Both Carlow and Antrim taking hammerings at the moment, with Louth to come. Brolly will be more insufferable than usual tomorrow night if he's on the Sunday Game

Farawayhome · 26-05-2019 10:19pm

Here it comes, you all ready for Brolly? Yes, you did just hear him despair at Rory Gallagher telling his Fermanagh players that they are not good enough. Up next you will hear him tell the Antrim players, the Louth players and more than half the counties of Ireland that they are not good enough and must be dropped out of the real championship.

C__MC · 26-05-2019 10:26pm

Any idea when a championship restructure is happening

Laois_Man · 26-05-2019 10:54pm

Revisionist nonsense of the highest order from RTE.....using the Longford/Kildare draw to strengthen their arguments that counties of a similar grade give exciting games. Not one of them would have put Longford in the sane tier as Kildare when the championship draw was made last November. Nor probably Roscommon and Mayo for that matter!

vapor trails · 26-05-2019 11:03pm

Since when is it a problem for a team to take a beating? The championship structure evolution is starting to resemble Father Ted with the small hammer trying to tap out a dent. The super 8's has destroyed All Ireland Semi's, the qualifiers destoryed the sick nervous gut feeling of an early championship exit that I can barely remember now.

Once you decide that drubbings are not allowed or are bad for the game, just redraw the county boundaries becuase All Ireland success is not entirely but largely related to population.

26-05-2019 11:06pm

C__MC wrote: »

Any idea when a championship restructure is happening

Not until 2021 at least. Current structure has another year to go.

26-05-2019 11:31pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Here it comes, you all ready for Brolly? Yes, you did just hear him despair at Rory Gallagher telling his Fermanagh players that they are not good enough. Up next you will hear him tell the Antrim players, the Louth players and more than half the counties of Ireland that they are not good enough and must be dropped out of the real championship.

Well what your solution to whats happening then? Louth et al will never win a senior grade All Ireland. I’m sure these players want to have a realistic chance of winning a competition they are involved in. Otherwise whats the point. Hurling is facing these issues, why can’t football?

Farawayhome · 26-05-2019 11:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well what your solution to whats happening then? Louth et al will never win a senior grade All Ireland. I’m sure these players want to have a realistic chance of winning a competition they are involved in. Otherwise whats the point. Hurling is facing these issues, why can’t football?

Louth have won 3 All Ireland's. Hurling has a limited number of teams that compete in the real championship, this is not a good thing. Why do you want the same for football?
People have to keep in mind that this will be a permanent split. There will be no recovery from this. The teams clamering to be separated from the rest will push further and further ahead.
It would be absolutely disastrous for Gaelic football in the counties booted out but also for those wanting to boot them out. It's short term thinking. You have visions of non stop top class games, full houses to watch Kerry v Dublin every year.
The novelty will wear off, the crowds will dwindle. Something has to be done to up the standards of football in counties not at the top. Give them a plan and finance to implement it. This is the way forward, demoting them is not.

dxhound2005 · 26-05-2019 11:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well what your solution to whats happening then? Louth et al will never win a senior grade All Ireland. I’m sure these players want to have a realistic chance of winning a competition they are involved in. Otherwise whats the point. Hurling is facing these issues, why can’t football?

They have a realistic chance of winning their League division, or getting promotion. The best team in the country should not be determined by a knockout competition. Certainly not one with unequal provinces. Having a knockout competition where everyone gets at least two chances is as good as it gets. A big improvement on what went on for the previous hundred years. The Tommy Murphy Cup proved that the weaker teams are not interested in a B championship

It should be a home and away league, giving every team 14 meaningful games. If that means four divisions with some teams never getting out of the bottom two, that is just what happens in sport.

27-05-2019 12:11am

Farawayhome wrote: »

Louth have won 3 All Ireland's. Hurling has a limited number of teams that compete in the real championship, this is not a good thing. Why do you want the same for football?
People have to keep in mind that this will be a permanent split. There will be no recovery from this. The teams clamering to be separated from the rest will push further and further ahead.
It would be absolutely disastrous for Gaelic football in the counties booted out but also for those wanting to boot them out. It's short term thinking. You have visions of non stop top class games, full houses to watch Kerry v Dublin every year.
The novelty will wear off, the crowds will dwindle. Something has to be done to up the standards of football in counties not at the top. Give them a plan and finance to implement it. This is the way forward, demoting them is not.

Two of those were in 1910 & 1912, the last in 1957. Louth will not win an AI again in the current setup. Promotion in any tiered proposal gives counties a chance to aim for the top tier and relegation will ensure less chance of dead rubber games happening. All finals to be in Croke Pk on AI weekend as well to give them meaning for the players.

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 9:50am

Deleted User wrote: »

Two of those were in 1910 & 1912, the last in 1957. Louth will not win an AI again in the current setup. Promotion in any tiered proposal gives counties a chance to aim for the top tier and relegation will ensure less chance of dead rubber games happening. All finals to be in Croke Pk on AI weekend as well to give them meaning for the players.

Yes, so it's possible. Dublin had won 1 All Ireland in nearly 30 years, now look at them. How did they improve? Now do the same to the rest.
You think there will be no more one sided games in this breakaway championship? Did you see the super 8's last year? Roscommon and Kildare got some batterings. Do you want to make it a 5 or 6 team breakaway?
Meaning for the players? Promising to play on All Ireland weekends? That's been heard before. Let me ask you, how much of the Westmeath v Kerry Joe McDonagh cup game did you see on the Sunday Game last night?

Coillte_Bhoy · 27-05-2019 11:02am

Horan confident of second tier championship's prospects

http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299724?fbclid=IwAR1Kc4cU97SMSt2hEBmL8NOjgxs1RemEkC7DL6mh7af-LbroC4AOk4npJgA

wellpastit · 27-05-2019 11:17am

Farawayhome wrote: »

Yechampionship? Did you see the super 8's last year? Roscommon and Kildare got some batterings. Do you want to make it a 5 or 6 team breakaway?

Dont think Kildare took some batterings last year. Lost by 2 pts to Monaghan,lost by 3 after losing D flynn to a red when they were very much in the game maybe even on to. Had Kerry by the town halls at half time without d Flynn suspended and a stupid red card changed the whole game.
I can see the point you are trying to make but that example is simply incorrect

Tiered Championship

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