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Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    loyatemu wrote: »
    you could put soft restrictions in on designated routes - "no entry except access and cyclists" sort of thing, and reduce the limits, put in chicanes etc. You don't have to close the roads or make them one way, just discourage people from using them unless necessary, similar to the urban "quietway" idea.

    Yeah, I would put barriers as an absolute last resort, signage, speed limit changes, psychological 'barriers' such as chicanes etc would be first port of call.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    From FB:

    Progress on Blueway

    * Update on Barrow Blueway*
    Good news.

    Report:
    Trailway - Works to the trailway are progressing well through two Waterways Ireland (WI) direct labour crews. Crew no 1 started at Ballyteague South and have approximately 1.5 km complete to 804 level, Crew No 2 started just past Milltown
    Bridge and similarly have approximately 1.5 km complete to 804 level. Once the 2 crews meet in the middle at approximately 5.5 km total, WI will complete the 5.5 km length with quarry dust. Waterways Ireland will continue to work on the trailway until
    November this year and will recommence in February 2021. Some of the issues we have encountered on the trailway are in relation to existing entrances and the right to access – including the right to move livestock. Waterways Ireland legal team are addressing these issues. Other issues are in relation to poor ground conditions, where there is a necessity to excavate further and stabilise with additional stone.

    The SPPR Team procured the services of an Ecological Clerk of Works for independent oversight of all works to the Barrow Blueway as required by the Planning Permission and are working well with Waterways Ireland to ensure all works are carried out in compliance with Environmental Conditions and in compliance with
    current legislation.

    Road Crossing/Junction Improvements, Car Parking Urgrade and Associates Signage: The SPPR Team are currently running a tender on etenders for the detailed design and procurement of a Works Contractor for all road crossings and junction improvements, including all associated signage, this was due to close on 16/09/2020, but a 3 week extension has been requested, moving closing date for tender returns to 7/10/2020. It is envisaged this work will go to site Spring 2021.

    Bridge Design: The SPPR Team are currently working on a tender for bridge design and procurement of Works Contractor and hope to be in a position to upload to etenders by the end of September 2020.

    Once we have a detailed design on roads crossings, junction improvements and bridge design, these can be shared for information purposes only.
    The SPPR team propose to update KCC website on a biweekly basis, providing an update to the public as to how the works are progressing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭nilhg


    Grassey wrote: »
    From FB:

    Progress on Blueway

    * Update on Barrow Blueway*
    Good news.

    Report:
    Trailway - Works to the trailway are progressing well through two Waterways Ireland (WI) direct labour crews. Crew no 1 started at Ballyteague South and have approximately 1.5 km complete to 804 level, Crew No 2 started just past Milltown
    Bridge and similarly have approximately 1.5 km complete to 804 level. Once the 2 crews meet in the middle at approximately 5.5 km total, WI will complete the 5.5 km length with quarry dust. Waterways Ireland will continue to work on the trailway until

    November this year and will recommence in February 2021. Some of the issues we have encountered on the trailway are in relation to existing entrances and the right to access – including the right to move livestock. Waterways Ireland legal team are addressing these issues. Other issues are in relation to poor ground conditions, where there is a necessity to excavate further and stabilise with additional stone.

    The SPPR Team procured the services of an Ecological Clerk of Works for independent oversight of all works to the Barrow Blueway as required by the Planning Permission and are working well with Waterways Ireland to ensure all works are carried out in compliance with Environmental Conditions and in compliance with
    current legislation.

    Road Crossing/Junction Improvements, Car Parking Urgrade and Associates Signage: The SPPR Team are currently running a tender on etenders for the detailed design and procurement of a Works Contractor for all road crossings and junction improvements, including all associated signage, this was due to close on 16/09/2020, but a 3 week extension has been requested, moving closing date for tender returns to 7/10/2020. It is envisaged this work will go to site Spring 2021.

    Bridge Design: The SPPR Team are currently working on a tender for bridge design and procurement of Works Contractor and hope to be in a position to upload to etenders by the end of September 2020.

    Once we have a detailed design on roads crossings, junction improvements and bridge design, these can be shared for information purposes only.
    The SPPR team propose to update KCC website on a biweekly basis, providing an update to the public as to how the works are progressing.

    Indeed it's good news but there's something lost in translation there, Ballyteague is close to Robertstown and Milltown Bridge is close to Athy so there's closer to 40km between them than 5.5Km. I think what they mean is that as each section (roughly 5.5km) is done the quarrydust layer will be put down and that section opened, at least that's what I'm hoping

    526596.jpg

    I would have thought that issues with access and livestock would have been sorted as part of the planning process, not as they arise during construction? Maybe that's just down to landowners making sure what they were promised is done?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 366 ✭✭daniel_t1409


    I had another look on google maps at old the New Ross to Bagenalstown railway - looks like there is more of it intact than I first thought, which is good - and it runs through some nice scenery with mountains on both sides, and the big viaduct at Borris. Hopefully they do make this line into a greenway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    DLRCC looking to link up 2 Greenways via segregated routes
    Three new quick-build cycle route to help children cycle to school are planned by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council across its area, the council has said today.



    The council describes the routes as follows:

    “The Sea to Mountains route will link east to west across the County. Starting at Blackrock Dart Station, crossing the N11 to Deerpark. It will then continue south linking to the Sandyford Cycle Route and Kilmacud Luas Stop and on to the Slang River Greenway and Wicklow Way.”
    “The Park to Park route will link north to south across the county. Starting at the coast at Blackrock Dart Station then joining to the existing pathways in Rockfield Park. From there it will continue south along Deansgrange Road linking to the Loughlinstown to Deansgrange Greenway and ending by linking south to the coast.“
    ”The Mountains to Metals route will link east west across the county. Starting at the Sandyford Cycle Route, linking to the Sea to Mountains Route, the route also links up to the Park to Park route, north through residential areas and new developments and on to the Metals.

    https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/infrastructure-climate-change/dlr-safe-walking-cycling-routes-consultation/

    Looking for feedback on it


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

    Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 366 ✭✭daniel_t1409


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

    Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

    Good. Hopefully the same happens with Rosslare-Waterford. I like greenways, but not when they are built on existing railways.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

    Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

    Good.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

    Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

    Interesting proposal, if the intent is to use it almost entirely for freight I would continue to argue for a railside greenway along the route. but would obviously have to look at the practicalities of doing so.

    I would also highlight that there are plenty of issues with the WRC outside of the missing Foynes and Athenry-Claremorris links, operational flexibility of a Victorian era single track route is pretty poor, so I would want to see some major upgrades to the rest of the system if this is to be made worthwhile


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The freight thing is just the latest desperate attempt to make WRC sound viable. The report on reopening further sections of the WRC obviously hasn't found a case for it, now they are shifting to freight. Freight was part of the scope of the already prepared but not yet publicly published report but yet Ryan is now spending more money on another report looking at freight only. Rail freight can and does go to two existing rail-served ports and Port of Cork are looking to use the rail connection at Marino Point, we don't need to rebuild 100km of rail and upgrade Foynes to handle rail for any of this supposed freight demand. At this stage I think it is as much about blocking the greenway as it is about supporting rail.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Grassey wrote: »
    DLRCC looking to link up 2 Greenways via segregated routes

    https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/infrastructure-climate-change/dlr-safe-walking-cycling-routes-consultation/

    Looking for feedback on it

    Added these routes to the Map, nice little network that DLRCC are putting together, often you will find these little networks exist in a lot of areas, especially cities, although usually with the flaws that they either lack key linkages, have very poor surfaces/maintenance and aren't well marked/advertised as ways to go. Here is hoping DLRCC make these routes attractive, apparent and link key areas together.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

    Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

    I'm all for greenways but more trains is even more important. Could both be achieved maybe and have greenways running alongside the track it's not like there will be a million trains a day to spoil the peace


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    I'm all for greenways but more trains is even more important. Could both be achieved maybe and have greenways running alongside the track it's not like there will be a million trains a day to spoil the peace

    One and a half diverted trains a day, if the current freight figures stack up. The nature of rail-bound freight (sometimes unstable loads unsuitable for public roads) often means overnight or off-peak usage. The WRC has 14 road crossings between Tuam and Claremorris alone with a heavy housing density close to each junction and it would cross the busy N17 three times. I've cycled on side by side greenway/railway. 1. It is possible. 2. It only adds to the enjoyment when/if by chance a train passes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 366 ✭✭daniel_t1409


    There was an article in the wexford people this week(sorry no link) that the wexford greenway could not run alongside the railway, it had to be on the railway which means lifting of the track. I'm not sure but I presume that this is because of the barrow bridge crossing not being wide enough to accommodate a track and a cycleway?

    IMO the best way to do a waterford-wexford/rosslare greenway is to continue past New Ross, towards Macmine, and then go along quiet roads to wexford and Rosslare, also with one going up to enniscorthy as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    There was an article in the wexford people this week(sorry no link) that the wexford greenway could not run alongside the railway, it had to be on the railway which means lifting of the track. I'm not sure but I presume that this is because of the barrow bridge crossing not being wide enough to accommodate a track and a cycleway?

    IMO the best way to do a waterford-wexford/rosslare greenway is to continue past New Ross, towards Macmine, and then go along quiet roads to wexford and Rosslare, also with one going up to enniscorthy as well.

    It will be highly dependent on the nature of the railway if it can be done (and more importantly be done at a reasonable cost) to run alongside the track. At present we have no precedent for a trackside cycleway (Except sections of the current Dart line that have been there for a long time) so I cant see them starting off with one that requires a brand new very wide bridge across the Barrow...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It will be highly dependent on the nature of the railway if it can be done (and more importantly be done at a reasonable cost) to run alongside the track. At present we have no precedent for a trackside cycleway (Except sections of the current Dart line that have been there for a long time) so I cant see them starting off with one that requires a brand new very wide bridge across the Barrow...

    The bridge across the Barrow could be achieved by a rail bridge and a nearby pedestrian/cycle bridge which could be quite low cost as it carries little to no weight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    The bridge across the Barrow could be achieved by a rail bridge and a nearby pedestrian/cycle bridge which could be quite low cost as it carries little to no weight.

    it would have to be an opening bridge though, which would add substantially to the cost.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 366 ✭✭daniel_t1409


    would it be possible to extend the barrow bridge, as in put a boardwalk or something on the side of it, like what was done in waterford on the small bridges on the railway section?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    would it be possible to extend the barrow bridge, as in put a boardwalk or something on the side of it, like what was done in waterford on the small bridges on the railway section?

    That was the kind of idea I had in mind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The reality is that the population along the south Wexford line is negligible and passenger services aren't viable. Better to use the line for a greenway which brings its own benefits and is achievable in the near future rather than letting the line sit unused for decades in the hope a pipe dream might some day become reality.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    There was an article in the wexford people this week(sorry no link) that the wexford greenway could not run alongside the railway, it had to be on the railway which means lifting of the track.
    I'm not sure but I presume that this is because of the barrow bridge crossing not being wide enough to accommodate a track and a cycleway?
    Wexford County Council ruled out the side by side option due to the €49 million + VAT price tag.
    It either follows the railway or it isn't going to happen.
    Which would be a shame for the people and businesses in South Wexford.
    I feel they'd benefit a lot more out of a greenway than an unused railway line.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 366 ✭✭daniel_t1409


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The reality is that the population along the south Wexford line is negligible and passenger services aren't viable. Better to use the line for a greenway which brings its own benefits and is achievable in the near future rather than letting the line sit unused for decades in the hope a pipe dream might some day become reality.

    The line is a connection from Waterford to Rosslare, Wexford, Enniscorthy etc. It serves those towns. It was never meant to serve just south wexford, it just happened to pass through that area. The reason no one used the line was because of a poor timetable which was useful to nobody and didn't match up with ferries or other trains. The line has the potential, it's just the political will is not there. rant over :D

    Would be much better to have the greenway going from waterford to wexford via New Ross.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The line is a connection from Waterford to Rosslare, Wexford, Enniscorthy etc. It serves those towns. It was never meant to serve just south wexford, it just happened to pass through that area. The reason no one used the line was because of a poor timetable which was useful to nobody and didn't match up with ferries or other trains. The line has the potential, it's just the political will is not there. rant over :D

    Would be much better to have the greenway going from waterford to wexford via New Ross.

    What sort of a service would you run to link Waterford to Wexford and Enniscorthy? It would have to go into Rosslare Strand and driver change ends, it would take ages and would not be an attractive service at all. There would be little or no commuter potential given the limitations of the single track and Dublin services take priority. You might get day trippers but nothing like enough to justify the cost of providing the service. Any potential that there is could be served by bus, no doubt a superior service at less cost. It is far from just the political will that is not there.

    Going via New Ross would require significant stretches on road and would be far less attractive than the former rail line.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The reality is that the population along the south Wexford line is negligible and passenger services aren't viable. Better to use the line for a greenway which brings its own benefits and is achievable in the near future rather than letting the line sit unused for decades in the hope a pipe dream might some day become reality.


    What's your beef with railways? The South Wexford line was built as part of a trunk railway main line and the few rural stations on the remaining section are an irrelevancy trotted out by those in the anti-rail lobby. The trunk route formerly ran to Cork via Mallow and these days what could be developed as important route runs to Limerick Junction and onwards to Limerick and Galway. It's not about reopening the railway for a poxy two piece dmu pottering between Rosslare and Waterford all day long.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    What's your beef with railways? The South Wexford line was built as part of a trunk railway main line and the few rural stations on the remaining section are an irrelevancy trotted out by those in the anti-rail lobby. The trunk route formerly ran to Cork via Mallow and these days what could be developed as important route runs to Limerick Junction and onwards to Limerick and Galway. It's not about reopening the railway for a poxy two piece dmu pottering between Rosslare and Waterford all day long.

    I don't have any beef with railways but I recognise the reality that railways are expensive to maintain and operate and that buses provide a suitable (and often superior) service for a fraction of the cost. Spending hundreds of millions of euros reinstating rural railways to then subsidise each passenger journey to the tune of several hundred euro is not a good use of taxpayers money. Naming our cities/bigger towns which have rail links means nothing. Its not like simply reopening the south Wexford line is suddenly going to open up journeys all over the country, it would be connecting into a predominantly single track network with many limitations and restrictions. And the connection between Waterford, Limerick and Galway is already there, there really is nothing to be gained from adding in a few villages in Wexford apart from significant operating loses.

    Thankfully we have a viable alternative use for these former railways in the form of greenways which have much lower construction and operating costs, can be delivered quickly and return many benefits. Refusing greenways (including the unjustifiably more expensive alongside option) because of fantasies of rail returning will only result in former trackbed remaining unused for decades which nobody benefits from (yet there are those who seem to want to fight tooth and nail for that).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I don't have any beef with railways but I recognise the reality that railways are expensive to maintain and operate and that buses provide a suitable (and often superior) service for a fraction of the cost. Spending hundreds of millions of euros reinstating rural railways to then subsidise each passenger journey to the tune of several hundred euro is not a good use of taxpayers money. Naming our cities/bigger towns which have rail links means nothing. Its not like simply reopening the south Wexford line is suddenly going to open up journeys all over the country, it would be connecting into a predominantly single track network with many limitations and restrictions. And the connection between Waterford, Limerick and Galway is already there, there really is nothing to be gained from adding in a few villages in Wexford apart from significant operating loses.

    Thankfully we have a viable alternative use for these former railways in the form of greenways which have much lower construction and operating costs, can be delivered quickly and return many benefits. Refusing greenways (including the unjustifiably more expensive alongside option) because of fantasies of rail returning will only result in former trackbed remaining unused for decades which nobody benefits from (yet there are those who seem to want to fight tooth and nail for that).

    Worse, in some cases encroachment on trackbeds has ensured that return to rail will be difficult on some lines. Cheap greenway infrastructure is a passive way of maintaining those alignments. It's also a net positive in terms of population health and tourism money.

    Many greens and rail enthusiasts appear to be against greenways on the grounds that they will prevent railways returning. But there's a long list of viable and achievable rail projects awaiting funding. So it doesn't seem sensible to focus on the more "dream scenario" rail projects.

    Just on the Cork area, where's Eamon Ryan on the Dunkettle P&R station, Blarney P&R station, Blackpool/Kilbarry Station, Kent Station new platform & passing loop etc? It's easy to fly kites about the WRC and rail to Youghal while ignoring the real rail projects.

    I'd even go further and say that IÉ should refurb old station infrastructure along these proposed greenways to gain direct income from cafe's, food vans, equipment rentals etc. There's an open goal there from what I've seen - these greenways are a revenue generator.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Worse, in some cases encroachment on trackbeds has ensured that return to rail will be difficult on some lines. Cheap greenway infrastructure is a passive way of maintaining those alignments. It's also a net positive in terms of population health and tourism money.

    Many greens and rail enthusiasts appear to be against greenways on the grounds that they will prevent railways returning. But there's a long list of viable and achievable rail projects awaiting funding. So it doesn't seem sensible to focus on the more "dream scenario" rail projects.

    Just on the Cork area, where's Eamon Ryan on the Dunkettle P&R station, Blarney P&R station, Blackpool/Kilbarry Station, Kent Station new platform & passing loop etc? It's easy to fly kites about the WRC and rail to Youghal while ignoring the real rail projects.

    I'd even go further and say that IÉ should refurb old station infrastructure along these proposed greenways to gain direct income from cafe's, food vans, equipment rentals etc. There's an open goal there from what I've seen - these greenways are a revenue generator.

    Lots of excellent points here, I'm a green who is strongly pro greenway and pro railway, they don't have to be mutually exclusive, if you are that concerned about the idea of a greenway as a placeholder (See the Comber greenway issues in NI) then make sure IE have a clause in any works contract saying that they will do a passenger/freight demand study every 5 years and if it meets a certain threshold then the railway gets reinstated, maybe with works including adding a greenway alongside the route.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Lots of excellent points here, I'm a green who is strongly pro greenway and pro railway, they don't have to be mutually exclusive, if you are that concerned about the idea of a greenway as a placeholder (See the Comber greenway issues in NI) then make sure IE have a clause in any works contract saying that they will do a passenger/freight demand study every 5 years and if it meets a certain threshold then the railway gets reinstated, maybe with works including adding a greenway alongside the route.

    That should be the way things are done.

    I think the law should be such that adverse possession cannot succeed against Gov owned land, and in particular on railway alignments. If the land is sold, then OK, but it should not be possible to acquire public land in such a way.

    Also, if a new railway line is to be built, it should not be restricted to following an ancient Victorian alignment. For example, a line going from Tuam to Galway should not be restricted to being routed across an unpopulated route via Athenry. Surely, a new route would be better following, say, the old N17, and perhaps being a tram rather than a commuter train. If there is a business case, it needs to be a wider study.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    make sure IE have a clause in any works contract saying that they will do a passenger/freight demand study every 5 years and if it meets a certain threshold then the railway gets reinstated, maybe with works including adding a greenway alongside the route.
    Agree with this, although I would think that there's no maybe about it. Once a Greenway goes in, it will stay in - popular demand will require it, so an alongside will have to be done.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    serfboard wrote: »
    Agree with this, although I would think that there's no maybe about it. Once a Greenway goes in, it will stay in - popular demand will require it, so an alongside will have to be done.

    Well this was the issue in NI, the comber greenway was built with an 'understanding' that when they wanted the land to build a light rail corridor for Belfast it would be reinstated as a light railway. When the initial plans for the Glider arose DoI asked for the land back and got massive public outcry. That's why I'm saying you need to make sure that you have a legal document, I would say alternative/replacement route of equal quality would have to be a stipulation in such a document.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    Grassey wrote: »
    DLRCC looking to link up 2 Greenways via segregated routes

    https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/infrastructure-climate-change/dlr-safe-walking-cycling-routes-consultation/

    Looking for feedback on it

    Had some texts forwarded to me regarding this, typical hysteria 'OMG, we will lose all access to Mount Merrion Ave', 'Traffic Chaos everywhere', 'Won't be able to get to the shops' etc

    If you are in anyway supportive of any of these proposed routes can you submit something as part of the Council consultation. It's be nice to balance out the feedback with something constructive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Well this was the issue in NI, the comber greenway was built with an 'understanding' that when they wanted the land to build a light rail corridor for Belfast it would be reinstated as a light railway. When the initial plans for the Glider arose DoI asked for the land back and got massive public outcry. That's why I'm saying you need to make sure that you have a legal document, I would say alternative/replacement route of equal quality would have to be a stipulation in such a document.
    Agree, and AFAIK that was the point that Comber missed out on - the line was going to be reinstated thereby removing the Greenway, with nothing put in its place. No surprise that there were objections.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 366 ✭✭daniel_t1409


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    What sort of a service would you run to link Waterford to Wexford and Enniscorthy? It would have to go into Rosslare Strand and driver change ends, it would take ages and would not be an attractive service at all. There would be little or no commuter potential given the limitations of the single track and Dublin services take priority. You might get day trippers but nothing like enough to justify the cost of providing the service. Any potential that there is could be served by bus, no doubt a superior service at less cost. It is far from just the political will that is not there.

    https://wexfordtoday.com/2020/09/18/south-wexford-railway-10th-anniversary-of-closure/


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Going via New Ross would require significant stretches on road and would be far less attractive than the former rail line.

    It could link in with the Waterford/New Ross greenway, as well as the proposed Palace East/Bagenalstown geenway. Most of the land is still in CIE ownership. The only roads that it would have to go along are quiet roads towards Wexford and the old N30 that has been bypassed/


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well this was the issue in NI, the comber greenway was built with an 'understanding' that when they wanted the land to build a light rail corridor for Belfast it would be reinstated as a light railway. When the initial plans for the Glider arose DoI asked for the land back and got massive public outcry. That's why I'm saying you need to make sure that you have a legal document, I would say alternative/replacement route of equal quality would have to be a stipulation in such a document.

    Please educate yourself re comber, you have been misled


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    Please educate yourself re comber, you have been misled

    Correct. I'd like to see some evidence of the "massive outcry", any searches I've completed only show a fiscal preference to the current bendy buses by the NI Assembly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Please educate yourself re comber, you have been misled

    Not sure on what aspect you mean? There was considerable opposition to the EWAY proposal to use the trackbed for BRT, and the Knock relief sewer was installed along the route expressly aligned so it wouldn't impede any tram/bus route run along the trackbed.

    It was clearly a case where the government wanted to 'reopen' a line and got major opposition from the public, which is where a legally binding document would be beneficial?

    There was a campaign group formed "Greenway to stay" Internet Archive Link to the site, indicating there was at least enough public opposition to organise and get a website running.

    I don't doubt that fiscal considerations played a significant role, I'm basing a lot of my info on Wesley Johnsons site information here so I could be wrong. Just saying that there was definitely opposition publicly to removing the greenway, which was installed, at least in part, under the idea of protecting the alignment for future transit projects.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    It is vital that the current Railway between Rosslare / Wexford & Waterford is not converted to a Greenway.

    This is a nationally important piece of public transport infrastructure that should be maintained & upgraded to provide important rail travel to & from County Wexford & the East Coast region to Waterford & beyond to Southern & Western Ireland. The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

    There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

    https://wexfordtrails.ie/Directory/eurovelo-route/?fbclid=IwAR2GQGgIKSgnuHJIaW_RN-yWR6UJVZSUNvyG1PzVEmvtmAUIm8yADdELzhY


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    It is vital that the current Railway between Rosslare / Wexford & Waterford is not converted to a Greenway.

    This is a nationally important piece of public transport infrastructure that should be maintained & upgraded to provide important rail travel to & from County Wexford & the East Coast region to Waterford & beyond to Southern & Western Ireland. The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

    There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

    https://wexfordtrails.ie/Directory/eurovelo-route/?fbclid=IwAR2GQGgIKSgnuHJIaW_RN-yWR6UJVZSUNvyG1PzVEmvtmAUIm8yADdELzhY

    It's almost like you just ignored all the previous posts...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 366 ✭✭daniel_t1409


    It is vital that the current Railway between Rosslare / Wexford & Waterford is not converted to a Greenway.

    This is a nationally important piece of public transport infrastructure that should be maintained & upgraded to provide important rail travel to & from County Wexford & the East Coast region to Waterford & beyond to Southern & Western Ireland. The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

    There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

    https://wexfordtrails.ie/Directory/eurovelo-route/?fbclid=IwAR2GQGgIKSgnuHJIaW_RN-yWR6UJVZSUNvyG1PzVEmvtmAUIm8yADdELzhY

    Excellent post. It would make more sense to have the greenway going from New Ross to Wexford via macmine rather than south wexford. First of all, Waterford/New Ross is already being built, why not continue onto Wexford and Rosslare from there rather than start again at Belview? Secondly, south wexford already has plenty attractions for tourists(Hook lighthouse, etc,) but North Wexford doesn't have many. Thirdly, you mentioned the Eurovelo route, why not invest in it like you said, and, promote it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    It is vital that the current Railway between Rosslare / Wexford & Waterford is not converted to a Greenway.

    This is a nationally important piece of public transport infrastructure that should be maintained & upgraded to provide important rail travel to & from County Wexford & the East Coast region to Waterford & beyond to Southern & Western Ireland. The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

    There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

    https://wexfordtrails.ie/Directory/eurovelo-route/?fbclid=IwAR2GQGgIKSgnuHJIaW_RN-yWR6UJVZSUNvyG1PzVEmvtmAUIm8yADdELzhY

    I will state for the record that if 35 million was spent upgrading the wexford EV routes to a european standard then I personally wouldn't see any reason to greenway the rail route, as it stands it is mostly along rural roads with no protections however.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.
    Where are you getting this figure from?
    There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line...
    How much would this route cost to run separated cycling facilities along it?
    ...
    & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.
    You'd be talking about upgrading 120km of road way, to provide separated cycle tracks alongside the road.
    I'm guessing that will cost a lot more than the €12 million that's estimated for using the old railway line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Where are you getting this figure from?

    How much would this route cost to run separated cycling facilities along it?

    You'd be talking about upgrading 120km of road way, to provide separated cycle tracks alongside the road.
    I'm guessing that will cost a lot more than the €12 million that's estimated for using the old railway line.

    When they refer to New Ross-Macmine I imagine they mean to make that old railway a greenway across the county instead of the southern railway, this route would then require a route alongside the main Rosslaire-Wexford line or road/alternative solutions from Macmine to Wexford town/Rosslaire. (Again I think this would be a fine route, I wouldn't know enough about the possible economic merits of restoring the Rosslare to Waterford Line)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The argument appears to be this: "The railway should not be converted to a greenway. Instead we should spend money on rail."
    I find this a bit frustrating.

    As far as I can see, nobody on this thread has any problem with spending money on rail or restoring the disused railways whatsoever. Many of us have explicitly stated that we're in favour of it. But there is little investment in rail right infrastructure right now and large numbers of rail projects remain unfunded. The idea of disused lines being reopened seems optimistic. IÉ don't want to reopen these railways. The government don't want to fund them.

    There is money available for greenways and people are actively opposing them.

    It feels like we're leaving the "perfect" prevent the "good". If there's a prospect of any line returning to active use in the short or medium term then any talk of a greenway is obviously a bad idea. I don't think anyone will argue otherwise.

    But saying "we shouldn't convert to a greenway: we should spend money on rail" seems to be a pretty textbook straw man argument?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    The argument appears to be this: "The railway should not be converted to a greenway. Instead we should spend money on rail."
    I find this a bit frustrating.

    As far as I can see, nobody on this thread has any problem with spending money on rail or restoring the disused railways whatsoever. Many of us have explicitly stated that we're in favour of it. But there is little investment in rail right infrastructure right now and large numbers of rail projects remain unfunded. The idea of disused lines being reopened seems optimistic. IÉ don't want to reopen these railways. The government don't want to fund them.

    There is money available for greenways and people are actively opposing them.

    It feels like we're leaving the "perfect" prevent the "good". If there's a prospect of any line returning to active use in the short or medium term then any talk of a greenway is obviously a bad idea. I don't think anyone will argue otherwise.

    But saying "we shouldn't convert to a greenway: we should spend money on rail" seems to be a pretty textbook straw man argument?

    This would be my thinking also, I am 100% behind the idea of rail, but given how badly the active use rail infrastructure in Ireland currently needs upgrading I won't hold my breath for Rosslaire to Waterford getting priority for some time....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    This would be my thinking also, I am 100% behind the idea of rail, but given how badly the active use rail infrastructure in Ireland currently needs upgrading I won't hold my breath for Rosslaire to Waterford getting priority for some time....


    You fail to grasp the true situation i.e. CIE have been trying to get rid of the Waterford/Rosslare line for decades and they won't be seeking any investment for it - they want rid of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    You fail to grasp the true situation i.e. CIE have been trying to get rid of the Waterford/Rosslare line for decades and they won't be seeking any investment for it - they want rid of it.

    I am well aware of this issue, which frankly makes my point that saying "reopen the railway instead of turning it into a greenway" is going to be shouting into empty space when it comes to this route, unless some other operator wants to take it on IE have zero interest in trying to open it up again. Unless the minister can compel operations be increased (in which case he can compel a better timetable for a few existing routes first...) I dont think anything is happening railwise down there for the foreseeable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The South Wexford line is not "nationally important", any importance it had went with the sugar beet industry. Look at the list of stations on the line (Killinick, Bridgetown, Duncormick, Wellingtonbridge, Ballycullane and Campile), between them the population is tiny. The two trains a day which did operate the line were at times to suit commuting to Waterford and that couldn't attract enough passengers to justify the cost of a barebones service. The only other potential passengers during the day were day trippers, and they could only be small numbers given the small population in the catchment area. Adding more services (which would undoubtedly be near empty) would have only increased the losses on the line. There's a reason why IE don't want the line.

    The idea that there is/was a market for trains from Wicklow or North Wexford to Waterford on a magical mystery tour via Rosslare and Bridgetown is laughable. The road upgrades in the region make the train journey about 50% longer in distance and likely at a lower average speed. The earlier article states "The journey time of 1hr and 20 minutes was very competitive at the time when compared to road journeys and would still be competitive today". Road journey from Rosslare Strand to Waterford would be an hour, from Wexford town, Enniscourty or Gorey the road journey is the same or less, while from these towns the train journey only gets longer due to still having to go to RS.

    Investing in the line to make it competitive would still see the same issues of lack of population along the line and circuitous route for journeys not starting on the line itself. Talk of booking tickets online or the like are red herrings, the fundamentals are completely wrong for a viable rail service. The demand for train services from Wexford is going north towards Dublin, this is where investment should be focused. Spending significant money so trains can rattle through tiny villages while there are other parts of the network crying out for investment is madness. There are so many other projects that could improve services on routes with far greater populations. The calls for investment into the south Wexford line are based on a fetish for trains alone, taxpayers money shouldn't and won't be thrown into such a blackhole.

    The article linked previously even talked about reducing emissions, running diesel trains along this line would see a significant net increase in emissions as there would little or no reduction in car journeys to offset everything spewed out by the train. If sustainability or the environment was a concern, bus services would be the focus as they offer multiple routes which people may actual want to travel, lower emissions, faster and more frequent services and be available now rather than in several decades time.

    The south Wexford line has the potential to add to the wonderful Dungarvan to Waterford Greenway. The viaducts and Dunbrody Abbey would be great features/attractions to have along the greenway which would only be viewed for a minute from a train. JFK Arboretum, Tintern Abbey and Johnstown Castle could be tied in with a few short spurs. A 100km greenway from Dungarvan to Rosslare would be a genuinely top quality asset for the country, and the south east in particular. It would bring far more benefits at lower cost than a train service passing an insignificant population.

    The Wexford Eurovelo 1 Route is just signs on roads. On-road cycle routes are no comparison to greenway and shouldn't be talked about as an alternative. The line east of New Ross is all but gone (ironically the route via New Ross would be far better for a train service as it at least passes a town with a notable population and is a more direct journey from Wicklow/North Wexford), even what isolated stretches remain can't be stitched together easily without buying land. These aren't viable alternatives for a greenway on the rail line.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Whatever use the South Wexford line had it went out the window in January when the N25 New Ross bypass opened. That bridge completely transforms journeys from Campile and other places which previously had poor connectivity across the Barrow. Totally different kettle of fish now.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Well said.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Forum name should be changed to Roads & Greenways.


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