Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

riddlinrussell · 15-09-2020 9:46am

loyatemu wrote: »

you could put soft restrictions in on designated routes - "no entry except access and cyclists" sort of thing, and reduce the limits, put in chicanes etc. You don't have to close the roads or make them one way, just discourage people from using them unless necessary, similar to the urban "quietway" idea.

Yeah, I would put barriers as an absolute last resort, signage, speed limit changes, psychological 'barriers' such as chicanes etc would be first port of call.

Grassey · 17-09-2020 9:23am

From FB:

Progress on Blueway

* Update on Barrow Blueway*
Good news.

Report:
Trailway - Works to the trailway are progressing well through two Waterways Ireland (WI) direct labour crews. Crew no 1 started at Ballyteague South and have approximately 1.5 km complete to 804 level, Crew No 2 started just past Milltown
Bridge and similarly have approximately 1.5 km complete to 804 level. Once the 2 crews meet in the middle at approximately 5.5 km total, WI will complete the 5.5 km length with quarry dust. Waterways Ireland will continue to work on the trailway until
November this year and will recommence in February 2021. Some of the issues we have encountered on the trailway are in relation to existing entrances and the right to access â€“ including the right to move livestock. Waterways Ireland legal team are addressing these issues. Other issues are in relation to poor ground conditions, where there is a necessity to excavate further and stabilise with additional stone.

The SPPR Team procured the services of an Ecological Clerk of Works for independent oversight of all works to the Barrow Blueway as required by the Planning Permission and are working well with Waterways Ireland to ensure all works are carried out in compliance with Environmental Conditions and in compliance with
current legislation.

Road Crossing/Junction Improvements, Car Parking Urgrade and Associates Signage: The SPPR Team are currently running a tender on etenders for the detailed design and procurement of a Works Contractor for all road crossings and junction improvements, including all associated signage, this was due to close on 16/09/2020, but a 3 week extension has been requested, moving closing date for tender returns to 7/10/2020. It is envisaged this work will go to site Spring 2021.

Bridge Design: The SPPR Team are currently working on a tender for bridge design and procurement of Works Contractor and hope to be in a position to upload to etenders by the end of September 2020.

Once we have a detailed design on roads crossings, junction improvements and bridge design, these can be shared for information purposes only.
The SPPR team propose to update KCC website on a biweekly basis, providing an update to the public as to how the works are progressing.

nilhg · 17-09-2020 1:38pm

Grassey wrote: »

From FB:

Progress on Blueway

* Update on Barrow Blueway*
Good news.

Report:
Trailway - Works to the trailway are progressing well through two Waterways Ireland (WI) direct labour crews. Crew no 1 started at Ballyteague South and have approximately 1.5 km complete to 804 level, Crew No 2 started just past Milltown
Bridge and similarly have approximately 1.5 km complete to 804 level. Once the 2 crews meet in the middle at approximately 5.5 km total, WI will complete the 5.5 km length with quarry dust. Waterways Ireland will continue to work on the trailway until
November this year and will recommence in February 2021. Some of the issues we have encountered on the trailway are in relation to existing entrances and the right to access – including the right to move livestock. Waterways Ireland legal team are addressing these issues. Other issues are in relation to poor ground conditions, where there is a necessity to excavate further and stabilise with additional stone.

The SPPR Team procured the services of an Ecological Clerk of Works for independent oversight of all works to the Barrow Blueway as required by the Planning Permission and are working well with Waterways Ireland to ensure all works are carried out in compliance with Environmental Conditions and in compliance with
current legislation.

Road Crossing/Junction Improvements, Car Parking Urgrade and Associates Signage: The SPPR Team are currently running a tender on etenders for the detailed design and procurement of a Works Contractor for all road crossings and junction improvements, including all associated signage, this was due to close on 16/09/2020, but a 3 week extension has been requested, moving closing date for tender returns to 7/10/2020. It is envisaged this work will go to site Spring 2021.

Bridge Design: The SPPR Team are currently working on a tender for bridge design and procurement of Works Contractor and hope to be in a position to upload to etenders by the end of September 2020.

Once we have a detailed design on roads crossings, junction improvements and bridge design, these can be shared for information purposes only.
The SPPR team propose to update KCC website on a biweekly basis, providing an update to the public as to how the works are progressing.

Indeed it's good news but there's something lost in translation there, Ballyteague is close to Robertstown and Milltown Bridge is close to Athy so there's closer to 40km between them than 5.5Km. I think what they mean is that as each section (roughly 5.5km) is done the quarrydust layer will be put down and that section opened, at least that's what I'm hoping

I would have thought that issues with access and livestock would have been sorted as part of the planning process, not as they arise during construction? Maybe that's just down to landowners making sure what they were promised is done?

daniel_t1409 · 21-09-2020 8:53pm

I had another look on google maps at old the New Ross to Bagenalstown railway - looks like there is more of it intact than I first thought, which is good - and it runs through some nice scenery with mountains on both sides, and the big viaduct at Borris. Hopefully they do make this line into a greenway.

Grassey · 25-09-2020 5:12pm

DLRCC looking to link up 2 Greenways via segregated routes

Three new quick-build cycle route to help children cycle to school are planned by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council across its area, the council has said today.

The council describes the routes as follows:

“The Sea to Mountains route will link east to west across the County. Starting at Blackrock Dart Station, crossing the N11 to Deerpark. It will then continue south linking to the Sandyford Cycle Route and Kilmacud Luas Stop and on to the Slang River Greenway and Wicklow Way.”
“The Park to Park route will link north to south across the county. Starting at the coast at Blackrock Dart Station then joining to the existing pathways in Rockfield Park. From there it will continue south along Deansgrange Road linking to the Loughlinstown to Deansgrange Greenway and ending by linking south to the coast.“
”The Mountains to Metals route will link east west across the county. Starting at the Sandyford Cycle Route, linking to the Sea to Mountains Route, the route also links up to the Park to Park route, north through residential areas and new developments and on to the Metals.

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/infrastructure-climate-change/dlr-safe-walking-cycling-routes-consultation/

Looking for feedback on it

Muckyboots · 26-09-2020 7:04pm

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

daniel_t1409 · 26-09-2020 7:22pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

Good. Hopefully the same happens with Rosslare-Waterford. I like greenways, but not when they are built on existing railways.

whisky_galore · 27-09-2020 9:22am

Muckyboots wrote: »

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

Good.

riddlinrussell · 28-09-2020 1:39pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

Interesting proposal, if the intent is to use it almost entirely for freight I would continue to argue for a railside greenway along the route. but would obviously have to look at the practicalities of doing so.

I would also highlight that there are plenty of issues with the WRC outside of the missing Foynes and Athenry-Claremorris links, operational flexibility of a Victorian era single track route is pretty poor, so I would want to see some major upgrades to the rest of the system if this is to be made worthwhile

Pete_Cavan · 28-09-2020 2:07pm

The freight thing is just the latest desperate attempt to make WRC sound viable. The report on reopening further sections of the WRC obviously hasn't found a case for it, now they are shifting to freight. Freight was part of the scope of the already prepared but not yet publicly published report but yet Ryan is now spending more money on another report looking at freight only. Rail freight can and does go to two existing rail-served ports and Port of Cork are looking to use the rail connection at Marino Point, we don't need to rebuild 100km of rail and upgrade Foynes to handle rail for any of this supposed freight demand. At this stage I think it is as much about blocking the greenway as it is about supporting rail.

riddlinrussell · 28-09-2020 2:26pm

Grassey wrote: »

DLRCC looking to link up 2 Greenways via segregated routes

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/infrastructure-climate-change/dlr-safe-walking-cycling-routes-consultation/

Looking for feedback on it

Added these routes to the Map, nice little network that DLRCC are putting together, often you will find these little networks exist in a lot of areas, especially cities, although usually with the flaws that they either lack key linkages, have very poor surfaces/maintenance and aren't well marked/advertised as ways to go. Here is hoping DLRCC make these routes attractive, apparent and link key areas together.

breezy1985 · 28-09-2020 2:32pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/

Bad news for Sligo Greenway and The Quiet Man Greenway as Eamon Ryan throws his weight behind the pro rail lobby on the WRC.

I'm all for greenways but more trains is even more important. Could both be achieved maybe and have greenways running alongside the track it's not like there will be a million trains a day to spoil the peace

Muckyboots · 28-09-2020 2:43pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm all for greenways but more trains is even more important. Could both be achieved maybe and have greenways running alongside the track it's not like there will be a million trains a day to spoil the peace

One and a half diverted trains a day, if the current freight figures stack up. The nature of rail-bound freight (sometimes unstable loads unsuitable for public roads) often means overnight or off-peak usage. The WRC has 14 road crossings between Tuam and Claremorris alone with a heavy housing density close to each junction and it would cross the busy N17 three times. I've cycled on side by side greenway/railway. 1. It is possible. 2. It only adds to the enjoyment when/if by chance a train passes.

daniel_t1409 · 28-09-2020 3:57pm

There was an article in the wexford people this week(sorry no link) that the wexford greenway could not run alongside the railway, it had to be on the railway which means lifting of the track. I'm not sure but I presume that this is because of the barrow bridge crossing not being wide enough to accommodate a track and a cycleway?

IMO the best way to do a waterford-wexford/rosslare greenway is to continue past New Ross, towards Macmine, and then go along quiet roads to wexford and Rosslare, also with one going up to enniscorthy as well.

riddlinrussell · 28-09-2020 4:16pm

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

There was an article in the wexford people this week(sorry no link) that the wexford greenway could not run alongside the railway, it had to be on the railway which means lifting of the track. I'm not sure but I presume that this is because of the barrow bridge crossing not being wide enough to accommodate a track and a cycleway?

IMO the best way to do a waterford-wexford/rosslare greenway is to continue past New Ross, towards Macmine, and then go along quiet roads to wexford and Rosslare, also with one going up to enniscorthy as well.

It will be highly dependent on the nature of the railway if it can be done (and more importantly be done at a reasonable cost) to run alongside the track. At present we have no precedent for a trackside cycleway (Except sections of the current Dart line that have been there for a long time) so I cant see them starting off with one that requires a brand new very wide bridge across the Barrow...

Sam Russell · 28-09-2020 5:04pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

It will be highly dependent on the nature of the railway if it can be done (and more importantly be done at a reasonable cost) to run alongside the track. At present we have no precedent for a trackside cycleway (Except sections of the current Dart line that have been there for a long time) so I cant see them starting off with one that requires a brand new very wide bridge across the Barrow...

The bridge across the Barrow could be achieved by a rail bridge and a nearby pedestrian/cycle bridge which could be quite low cost as it carries little to no weight.

loyatemu · 28-09-2020 5:09pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The bridge across the Barrow could be achieved by a rail bridge and a nearby pedestrian/cycle bridge which could be quite low cost as it carries little to no weight.

it would have to be an opening bridge though, which would add substantially to the cost.

daniel_t1409 · 28-09-2020 5:13pm

would it be possible to extend the barrow bridge, as in put a boardwalk or something on the side of it, like what was done in waterford on the small bridges on the railway section?

Sam Russell · 28-09-2020 5:15pm

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

would it be possible to extend the barrow bridge, as in put a boardwalk or something on the side of it, like what was done in waterford on the small bridges on the railway section?

That was the kind of idea I had in mind.

Pete_Cavan · 28-09-2020 7:36pm

The reality is that the population along the south Wexford line is negligible and passenger services aren't viable. Better to use the line for a greenway which brings its own benefits and is achievable in the near future rather than letting the line sit unused for decades in the hope a pipe dream might some day become reality.

jackofalltrades · 28-09-2020 7:50pm

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

There was an article in the wexford people this week(sorry no link) that the wexford greenway could not run alongside the railway, it had to be on the railway which means lifting of the track.
I'm not sure but I presume that this is because of the barrow bridge crossing not being wide enough to accommodate a track and a cycleway?

Wexford County Council ruled out the side by side option due to the €49 million + VAT price tag.
It either follows the railway or it isn't going to happen.
Which would be a shame for the people and businesses in South Wexford.
I feel they'd benefit a lot more out of a greenway than an unused railway line.

daniel_t1409 · 28-09-2020 8:10pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The reality is that the population along the south Wexford line is negligible and passenger services aren't viable. Better to use the line for a greenway which brings its own benefits and is achievable in the near future rather than letting the line sit unused for decades in the hope a pipe dream might some day become reality.

The line is a connection from Waterford to Rosslare, Wexford, Enniscorthy etc. It serves those towns. It was never meant to serve just south wexford, it just happened to pass through that area. The reason no one used the line was because of a poor timetable which was useful to nobody and didn't match up with ferries or other trains. The line has the potential, it's just the political will is not there. rant over

Would be much better to have the greenway going from waterford to wexford via New Ross.

Pete_Cavan · 28-09-2020 8:44pm

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

The line is a connection from Waterford to Rosslare, Wexford, Enniscorthy etc. It serves those towns. It was never meant to serve just south wexford, it just happened to pass through that area. The reason no one used the line was because of a poor timetable which was useful to nobody and didn't match up with ferries or other trains. The line has the potential, it's just the political will is not there. rant over

Would be much better to have the greenway going from waterford to wexford via New Ross.

What sort of a service would you run to link Waterford to Wexford and Enniscorthy? It would have to go into Rosslare Strand and driver change ends, it would take ages and would not be an attractive service at all. There would be little or no commuter potential given the limitations of the single track and Dublin services take priority. You might get day trippers but nothing like enough to justify the cost of providing the service. Any potential that there is could be served by bus, no doubt a superior service at less cost. It is far from just the political will that is not there.

Going via New Ross would require significant stretches on road and would be far less attractive than the former rail line.

Del.Monte · 28-09-2020 8:48pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The reality is that the population along the south Wexford line is negligible and passenger services aren't viable. Better to use the line for a greenway which brings its own benefits and is achievable in the near future rather than letting the line sit unused for decades in the hope a pipe dream might some day become reality.

What's your beef with railways? The South Wexford line was built as part of a trunk railway main line and the few rural stations on the remaining section are an irrelevancy trotted out by those in the anti-rail lobby. The trunk route formerly ran to Cork via Mallow and these days what could be developed as important route runs to Limerick Junction and onwards to Limerick and Galway. It's not about reopening the railway for a poxy two piece dmu pottering between Rosslare and Waterford all day long.

Pete_Cavan · 28-09-2020 9:34pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

What's your beef with railways? The South Wexford line was built as part of a trunk railway main line and the few rural stations on the remaining section are an irrelevancy trotted out by those in the anti-rail lobby. The trunk route formerly ran to Cork via Mallow and these days what could be developed as important route runs to Limerick Junction and onwards to Limerick and Galway. It's not about reopening the railway for a poxy two piece dmu pottering between Rosslare and Waterford all day long.

I don't have any beef with railways but I recognise the reality that railways are expensive to maintain and operate and that buses provide a suitable (and often superior) service for a fraction of the cost. Spending hundreds of millions of euros reinstating rural railways to then subsidise each passenger journey to the tune of several hundred euro is not a good use of taxpayers money. Naming our cities/bigger towns which have rail links means nothing. Its not like simply reopening the south Wexford line is suddenly going to open up journeys all over the country, it would be connecting into a predominantly single track network with many limitations and restrictions. And the connection between Waterford, Limerick and Galway is already there, there really is nothing to be gained from adding in a few villages in Wexford apart from significant operating loses.

Thankfully we have a viable alternative use for these former railways in the form of greenways which have much lower construction and operating costs, can be delivered quickly and return many benefits. Refusing greenways (including the unjustifiably more expensive alongside option) because of fantasies of rail returning will only result in former trackbed remaining unused for decades which nobody benefits from (yet there are those who seem to want to fight tooth and nail for that).

hans aus dtschl · 29-09-2020 9:18am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I don't have any beef with railways but I recognise the reality that railways are expensive to maintain and operate and that buses provide a suitable (and often superior) service for a fraction of the cost. Spending hundreds of millions of euros reinstating rural railways to then subsidise each passenger journey to the tune of several hundred euro is not a good use of taxpayers money. Naming our cities/bigger towns which have rail links means nothing. Its not like simply reopening the south Wexford line is suddenly going to open up journeys all over the country, it would be connecting into a predominantly single track network with many limitations and restrictions. And the connection between Waterford, Limerick and Galway is already there, there really is nothing to be gained from adding in a few villages in Wexford apart from significant operating loses.

Thankfully we have a viable alternative use for these former railways in the form of greenways which have much lower construction and operating costs, can be delivered quickly and return many benefits. Refusing greenways (including the unjustifiably more expensive alongside option) because of fantasies of rail returning will only result in former trackbed remaining unused for decades which nobody benefits from (yet there are those who seem to want to fight tooth and nail for that).

Worse, in some cases encroachment on trackbeds has ensured that return to rail will be difficult on some lines. Cheap greenway infrastructure is a passive way of maintaining those alignments. It's also a net positive in terms of population health and tourism money.

Many greens and rail enthusiasts appear to be against greenways on the grounds that they will prevent railways returning. But there's a long list of viable and achievable rail projects awaiting funding. So it doesn't seem sensible to focus on the more "dream scenario" rail projects.

Just on the Cork area, where's Eamon Ryan on the Dunkettle P&R station, Blarney P&R station, Blackpool/Kilbarry Station, Kent Station new platform & passing loop etc? It's easy to fly kites about the WRC and rail to Youghal while ignoring the real rail projects.

I'd even go further and say that IÉ should refurb old station infrastructure along these proposed greenways to gain direct income from cafe's, food vans, equipment rentals etc. There's an open goal there from what I've seen - these greenways are a revenue generator.

riddlinrussell · 29-09-2020 10:23am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Worse, in some cases encroachment on trackbeds has ensured that return to rail will be difficult on some lines. Cheap greenway infrastructure is a passive way of maintaining those alignments. It's also a net positive in terms of population health and tourism money.

Many greens and rail enthusiasts appear to be against greenways on the grounds that they will prevent railways returning. But there's a long list of viable and achievable rail projects awaiting funding. So it doesn't seem sensible to focus on the more "dream scenario" rail projects.

Just on the Cork area, where's Eamon Ryan on the Dunkettle P&R station, Blarney P&R station, Blackpool/Kilbarry Station, Kent Station new platform & passing loop etc? It's easy to fly kites about the WRC and rail to Youghal while ignoring the real rail projects.

I'd even go further and say that IÉ should refurb old station infrastructure along these proposed greenways to gain direct income from cafe's, food vans, equipment rentals etc. There's an open goal there from what I've seen - these greenways are a revenue generator.

Lots of excellent points here, I'm a green who is strongly pro greenway and pro railway, they don't have to be mutually exclusive, if you are that concerned about the idea of a greenway as a placeholder (See the Comber greenway issues in NI) then make sure IE have a clause in any works contract saying that they will do a passenger/freight demand study every 5 years and if it meets a certain threshold then the railway gets reinstated, maybe with works including adding a greenway alongside the route.

Sam Russell · 29-09-2020 12:17pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Lots of excellent points here, I'm a green who is strongly pro greenway and pro railway, they don't have to be mutually exclusive, if you are that concerned about the idea of a greenway as a placeholder (See the Comber greenway issues in NI) then make sure IE have a clause in any works contract saying that they will do a passenger/freight demand study every 5 years and if it meets a certain threshold then the railway gets reinstated, maybe with works including adding a greenway alongside the route.

That should be the way things are done.

I think the law should be such that adverse possession cannot succeed against Gov owned land, and in particular on railway alignments. If the land is sold, then OK, but it should not be possible to acquire public land in such a way.

Also, if a new railway line is to be built, it should not be restricted to following an ancient Victorian alignment. For example, a line going from Tuam to Galway should not be restricted to being routed across an unpopulated route via Athenry. Surely, a new route would be better following, say, the old N17, and perhaps being a tram rather than a commuter train. If there is a business case, it needs to be a wider study.

serfboard · 29-09-2020 3:37pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

make sure IE have a clause in any works contract saying that they will do a passenger/freight demand study every 5 years and if it meets a certain threshold then the railway gets reinstated, maybe with works including adding a greenway alongside the route.

Agree with this, although I would think that there's no maybe about it. Once a Greenway goes in, it will stay in - popular demand will require it, so an alongside will have to be done.

riddlinrussell · 29-09-2020 3:50pm

serfboard wrote: »

Agree with this, although I would think that there's no maybe about it. Once a Greenway goes in, it will stay in - popular demand will require it, so an alongside will have to be done.

Well this was the issue in NI, the comber greenway was built with an 'understanding' that when they wanted the land to build a light rail corridor for Belfast it would be reinstated as a light railway. When the initial plans for the Glider arose DoI asked for the land back and got massive public outcry. That's why I'm saying you need to make sure that you have a legal document, I would say alternative/replacement route of equal quality would have to be a stipulation in such a document.

Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

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