Our Sport is Under Attack Again

Sparks · 12-08-2019 1:42pm

garv123 wrote: »

That looks like a locked receptacle to me, its in the name

Common mistake, it's a loc'd receptacle :P

minktrapper · 12-08-2019 2:58pm

Cass wrote: »

For anyone interested, here is the EU directive 91/447/EEC.

I had a glance and there is far more in it than in our SI so maybe we didn't get sh*t on, however i notice most of the stricter stuff wouldn't apply to us anyway as it's already banned here.

One thing in particular. Any full auto firearm that is deactivated and shown to be is now illegal to own personally. Only Museums can own them.

But if it is deactivated it's deactivated. And of no use to anyone. The same should apply to all deactivated firearms so.

Grizzly 45 · 12-08-2019 4:22pm

Minktrapper.
Cass was reading the wrong document,its a 2015 document of proposals. Yeah you can own a welded up lump of metal that formerly was a machine gun no problem.

riffmongous · 12-08-2019 4:30pm

minktrapper wrote: »

But if it is deactivated it's deactivated. And of no use to anyone. The same should apply to all deactivated firearms so.

IIRC it was something to do with deactivated AKs in Slovakia being reactivated and used in the Charlie Hebdo massacre. There were different degrees of 'deactivated' from country to country

Grizzly 45 · 12-08-2019 4:30pm

yubabill wrote: »

Reckon the car/ammo thing was proposed by a genius to prevent poaching. Somebody give them a raise and get them to solve Brexit.

Nope! Its actually part of updated EU legislation ASFIK.Been doing this in Germany,come to think about it for years now.But no one goes mental about it in reality.a locked rucksack,putting it in a lockable bag,box,even in the stash compartments in some models of suvs that can be locked is good enough.No one I know has ever built a safe into their car over there.Just so long as the guns are in a locked slip case,etc and ditto ammo,you are good.

Everyone knows if your car was nicked with the stuff in it.By people who can bypass pretty sophisticated alarms and immobilisers on moern cars...It wont last 5mins with a cordless drill and a bolt cutters on the locks.Its just a deterrant against causual and opportunistic theives.

Cass · 12-08-2019 4:37pm

minktrapper wrote: »

But if it is deactivated it's deactivated. And of no use to anyone. The same should apply to all deactivated firearms so.

Yeah i followed the wrong link which brought me to the 2015 proposals, instead of the final draft. Which is here.

Both were May with the proposals in 2015 and the final in 2017, hence my mistake.

Grizzly 45 · 12-08-2019 4:40pm

riffmongous wrote: »

IIRC it was something to do with deactivated AKs in Slovakia being reactivated and used in the Charlie Hebdo massacre. There were different degrees of 'deactivated' from country to country

Yup....Czech or Slovak imported and converted Serbian AK variants.The Czech deact law was simply remove the firing pin,weld up the hole and put a pin in the barrel.All of about a few hours work to re activate with spare parts..What was worse was the EU sat for seven years on this legislation to bring EU wide deacts up to a common spec,and then that Socialist Swedish Cow, Maelestrom [GREEN PARTY,what else??:mad:] decided to have a go at gun banning and social engineering EU wide.
What is it with these progressive depressive IKEA landers??They seem to want to export their Green socialist depressive misery on us all?

Cass · 12-08-2019 4:42pm

riffmongous wrote: »

There were different degrees of 'deactivated' from country to country

The current/new standard:

“deactivated firearms” means firearms that have been rendered permanently unfit for use by deactivation, ensuring that all essential components of the firearm in question have been rendered permanently inoperable and incapable of removal, replacement or modification in a manner that would permit the firearm to be reactivated in any way

All topped of with a certificate by an authorised person to declare such has been carried out. Each member state should have a body set up to do this/verify it, but "THIS IS SPARTA IRELAND" and we simply push that responsibility to the the little guy. Namely it's up to us to get it done, somehow, somewhere..............

Grizzly 45 · 12-08-2019 4:46pm

Apprently three companies are trying to do it here,and are waiting......Crickets................tumble weed rolls by.....Coyote howls in the distance.....more crickets.....you get the idea.

Cass · 12-08-2019 4:50pm

No, i'm completely lost. Our Government have been so ast on others things such as the reloading act, firearm acts review, etc, etc.

Can anyone sense the sarcasm cos i'm laying it on fairly heavily.

yubabill · 12-08-2019 7:09pm

Cass wrote: »

Yeah i followed the wrong link which brought me to the 2015 proposals, instead of the final draft. Which is here.

Both were May with the proposals in 2015 and the final in 2017, hence my mistake.

Right - reading the link above, it looks to me that most C/F B/A rifles come under Category C?

If so, there is no restriction on mag capacity for these people, except perhaps they also own a Category B rifle. The directive states anyone with a Cat B C/F S/A who possesses a mag with capacity greater than 10 rounds etc. will have their licence taken etc.

But it does not say that someone with a Cat C C/F B/A will be subject.

Plenty of B/A's out there that take AR mags, seen them on sale here in dealers.

minktrapper · 12-08-2019 7:31pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Minktrapper.
Cass was reading the wrong document,its a 2015 document of proposals. Yeah you can own a welded up lump of metal that formerly was a machine gun no problem.

There is a lot of nice firearms out there that should belong in collections. With a lot of history behind them. Shame to see them destroyed.

cavan shooter · 12-08-2019 8:25pm

NARGC statement below.
http://nargc.ie/nargc-press-release-statutory-instrument-s-i-no-420-of-2019/

Ju_Ju · 12-08-2019 8:28pm

Cass wrote: »

Exactly.

HEre is what i already have, and it works a treat:

Picked up a couple of these in Army Surplus Warehouse (army surplus is a bit of a stretch, definitely a warehouse though) in Carlow today. €15 a piece then €2 for a lock. Bargain.

It's a pain that we now have even more hoops to jump through to take part in our sport. As has been said numerous times already, it's not a surprise.

Cass · 12-08-2019 9:06pm

Ju_Ju wrote: »

Picked up a couple of these in Army Surplus Warehouse (army surplus is a bit of a stretch, definitely a warehouse though) in Carlow today. €15 a piece then €2 for a lock. Bargain.

They have a branch in Portlaoise too, it's where i got mine.

You're right about the Army surplus angle, and a lot of the stuff is, how can i put this politely, not brand name, but they have some good stuff, some oddities, and it's cheap as chips.

It's a pain that we now have even more hoops to jump through to take part in our sport. As has been said numerous times already, it's not a surprise.

You have to ask yourself, at what point is it too much? I know no one admits to giving up, but there are times, rarely thank God, that i wonder if its wise to sell everything and take up knitting (although they may ban the needles shortly enough), but at least i'll be left with a crap ton of yarn.

Grizzly 45 · 12-08-2019 9:07pm

yubabill wrote: »

Right - reading the link above, it looks to me that most C/F B/A rifles come under Category C?

Yup along with MSRs,pumps levers lever release,mARS etc.

If so, there is no restriction on mag capacity for these people, except perhaps they also own a Category B rifle. The directive states anyone with a Cat B C/F S/A who possesses a mag with capacity greater than 10 rounds etc. will have their licence taken etc

.

Yup you cant own a Cat B semi auto and have mags over ten shots for or in it.

But it does not say that someone with a Cat C C/F B/A will be subject.

Unless it happens to be that you have a "prohibited item" IE the mag itself,and it is fitted to your bolt action ,pump action,etc? Yes ,it sounds weird and convoluted and made up.But that is the utter illogic ,you deal with in the EU on things like this.It is ludicrious but I belive that was an arguement put forward.Maybe it was dropped too?As I could have been reading proposal incorrectly too,as there were and are still idiotic suggestions flying about there?

Plenty of B/A's out there that take AR mags, seen them on sale here in dealers.

You have Mossberg,Savage and....Thats about it really,and they only take .223
AR mags. SIG,HK,FN ,of which there are many out there are goosed with that

The AR platform is safe enough in CAT B,as I have yet to see a Colt M16/M4 lower with a modified fire control and modified select fire bolt carrier group here on any ranges here yet.:)

Grizzly 45 · 12-08-2019 9:25pm

Support you local army surplus shop.They are becoming another dying breed of store too.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/rise-fall-army-surplus-store/

oldgit1897 · 12-08-2019 11:11pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Support you local army surplus shop.They are becoming another dying breed of store too.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/rise-fall-army-surplus-store/

Reminds me of the Brendan Grace joke about being so poor as a kid, his mother buying his clothes in the Army surplus shops and him going to school dressed as a Japanese Admiral.

Ju_Ju · 12-08-2019 11:29pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Support you local army surplus shop.They are becoming another dying breed of store too.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/rise-fall-army-surplus-store/

Absolutely, I'd highly reccomend Protac in the Curragh (they were my first port of call for an ammo box). An absolute treasure trove of a place. I was in there for a pair of boots last week, didn't have my size, I still ended up with over €100 worth of "essentials".

And apologies for dragging the thread even further off topic, but it's good to see an AOM link being shared. Brett McKay puts out some great free content.

ak51535 · 12-08-2019 11:44pm

As far as the marking goes, is it just a matter of getting the serial number on the parts that don't have them? I know mine doesn't have it on the lower receiver or the barrel.

Thanks

Grizzly 45 · 13-08-2019 12:05am

What do you have?Sounds like an AR? Did you import it before 2018? Then No. If after 20 th Sept 2018 then YES. Both upper and lower,barrel,
Bolt,NOT note in an AR the "Bolt carrier group" Just the bolt head,as it is the pressure bearing part.

Brontosaurus · 13-08-2019 12:10am

So more and more muddy regulations and cost for the law abiding shooter to worry about?

Some people don't seem to realize that we just get more and more regulations, so gun laws get more and more restrictive, pigs will fly before we get any deregulation of firearms.

Over time have we gotten more or less restrictive gun laws? It will get harder and harder to get anything other than a double barrel as time goes on, if we're lucky.

And the fudds will say "sure it's not a big deal this new legislation only does this or that", and then they'll say the same thing when the next batch of murky legislation comes in, like a frog in boiling water...

ak51535 · 13-08-2019 12:22am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

What do you have?Sounds like an AR? Did you import it before 2018? Then No. If after 20 th Sept 2018 then YES. Both upper and lower,barrel,
Bolt,NOT note in an AR the "Bolt carrier group" Just the bolt head,as it is the pressure bearing part.

It's a ruger precision rifle in .223, I looked up the serial number and ruger says it was shipped in 2017, cheers for the reply grizzly

Cass · 13-08-2019 12:29am

Brontosaurus wrote: »

And the fudds will say "sure it's not a big deal this new legislation only does this or that", .............

I'm guilty of this, but it's not a capitulation issue, well i suppose it is. This is a done deal. Its EU and Irish law now. In the last 50 years you know how many laws were repealed?

One.

The one regarding a proof house and that was only because the Government realised the cost factor involved.

Look at the outrage, and rightly so, when the RFD SI landed without prior notice or consultation with the majority of the RFD (not counting the two or three that worked on their own). It's still on the books.

The only way to even open this up for discussion is to have a serious, and united, opposition by the various bodies involved, and if that fails there may be a Judicial route. However that way would require identification and challenges to the legality of the SI and regulations laid out in it. That is well beyond my level of knowledge though so i'll await the outcome of those better educated than me to see if it's a possibility.

Cass · 13-08-2019 12:34am

ak51535 wrote: »

It's a ruger precision rifle in .223, I looked up the serial number and ruger says it was shipped in 2017, cheers for the reply grizzly

Excuse my ignorance as i've not seen one in the flesh.

Is this not a "one piece" receiver. IOW a whole receiver with bolt, firing mechanism and feed in the one unit?

ak51535 · 13-08-2019 12:39am

Cass wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance as i've not seen one in the flesh.

Is this not a "one piece" receiver. IOW a whole receiver with bolt, firing mechanism and feed in the one unit?

Hi Cass, The upper receiver has the Receiver, bolt and trigger mechanism then has a lower with the pistol grip, trigger guard, magazine well and safety selector on it, its attached by 2 bolts, so when I saw that the SI mentioned upper and lower it had me wondering....the serial number is only on the upper and bolt body.

thanks

Cass · 13-08-2019 12:50am

Is it not just a bolt action rifle then?

My opinion would be the reference to upper and lower receivers is reserved specifically for semi auto, "AR" type firearms.

ak51535 · 13-08-2019 12:54am

Cass wrote: »

Is it not just a bolt action rifle then?

My opinion would be the reference to upper and lower receivers is reserved specifically for semi auto, "AR" type firearms.

Yes sorry its a bolt action, oh okay that clears it up so there's no need to have it engraved then?

Cass · 13-08-2019 12:58am

ak51535 wrote: »

................... so there's no need to have it engraved then?

.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Did you import it before 2018? Then No. If after 20 th Sept 2018 then YES. .

yubabill · 13-08-2019 3:18am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yup along with MSRs,pumps levers lever release,mARS etc.

.

Yup you cant own a Cat B semi auto and have mags over ten shots for or in it.

Unless it happens to be that you have a "prohibited item" IE the mag itself,and it is fitted to your bolt action ,pump action,etc? Yes ,it sounds weird and convoluted and made up.But that is the utter illogic ,you deal with in the EU on things like this.It is ludicrious but I belive that was an arguement put forward.Maybe it was dropped too?As I could have been reading proposal incorrectly too,as there were and are still idiotic suggestions flying about there?

You have Mossberg,Savage and....Thats about it really,and they only take .223
AR mags. SIG,HK,FN ,of which there are many out there are goosed with that

The AR platform is safe enough in CAT B,as I have yet to see a Colt M16/M4 lower with a modified fire control and modified select fire bolt carrier group here on any ranges here yet.:)

The EU directive does not ban the magazines, it bans Category B firearms owners from possessing them;

"3. Member States shall ensure that an authorisation to acquire and an authorisation to possess a firearm classified in category B shall be withdrawn if the person who was granted that authorisation is found to be in possession of a loading device apt to be fitted to centre-fire semi-automatic firearms or repeating firearms, which:
(a)
can hold more than 20 rounds; or
(b)
in the case of long firearms, can hold more than 10 rounds,
unless that person has been granted an authorisation under Article 6 or an authorisation which has been confirmed, renewed or prolonged under Article 7(4a)."

I don't see where the Irish SI bans the mags either.

yubabill · 13-08-2019 3:34am

Just found this bit - it says C/F mags over 10 rounds can only be acquired by collectors/museums etc. (Article 6) or licensees (Article 7(4a)), which by my logic, the licensees must include people with B/A C/F accepting AR mags.

"Article 10 is replaced by the following:
‘Article 10

1. The arrangements for the acquisition and possession of ammunition shall be the same as those for the possession of the firearms for which the ammunition is intended.
The acquisition of loading devices for centre-fire semi-automatic firearms which can hold more than 20 rounds or more than 10 rounds in the case of long firearms shall be permitted only for persons who are granted an authorisation under Article 6 or an authorisation which has been confirmed, renewed or prolonged under Article 7(4a)."

BattleCorp · 13-08-2019 8:21am

yubabill wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The EU directive does not ban the magazines, it bans Category B firearms owners from possessing them;

"3. Member States shall ensure that an authorisation to acquire and an authorisation to possess a firearm classified in category B shall be withdrawn if the person who was granted that authorisation is found to be in possession of a loading device apt to be fitted to centre-fire semi-automatic firearms or repeating firearms, which:
(a)
can hold more than 20 rounds; or
(b)
in the case of long firearms, can hold more than 10 rounds,
unless that person has been granted an authorisation under Article 6 or an authorisation which has been confirmed, renewed or prolonged under Article 7(4a)."

I don't see where the Irish SI bans the mags either.

yubabill wrote: »

Just found this bit - it says C/F mags over 10 rounds can only be acquired by collectors/museums etc. (Article 6) or licensees (Article 7(4a)), which by my logic, the licensees must include people with B/A C/F accepting AR mags.

"Article 10 is replaced by the following:
‘Article 10

1. The arrangements for the acquisition and possession of ammunition shall be the same as those for the possession of the firearms for which the ammunition is intended.
The acquisition of loading devices for centre-fire semi-automatic firearms which can hold more than 20 rounds or more than 10 rounds in the case of long firearms shall be permitted only for persons who are granted an authorisation under Article 6 or an authorisation which has been confirmed, renewed or prolonged under Article 7(4a)."

Apologies if I am wrong but I don't think that the EU Directive is law in Ireland. The SI that transposes the directive is the law so if it's not in the SI, then it's not law.

Cass · 13-08-2019 9:22am

The directive is a legal act in Europe that all member states are obliged to transpose into their national laws. If the law of the member state is the same as the directive then no action is needed, but if the country has no law that follows the directive then the country MUST draft legislation to make it so.

A quick search shows that the directives are not only legally binding but the member state is liable if they don't already have such laws in place or if they don't draft new laws to make the directive functional in their country.

So it appears that even if the SI were not drafted and enacted there is a case for the implementation of the directive regardless.

BattleCorp · 13-08-2019 9:29am

Cass wrote: »

The directive is a legal act in Europe that all member states are obliged to transpose into their national laws. If the law of the member state is the same as the directive then no action is needed, but if the country has no law that follows the directive then the country MUST draft legislation to make it so.

A quick search shows that the directives are not only legally binding but the member state is liable if they don't already have such laws in place or if they don't draft new laws to make the directive functional in their country.

So it appears that even if the SI were not drafted and enacted there is a case for the implementation of the directive regardless.

But because we have implemented the SI, that has now made the directive null and void, yes?

Cass · 13-08-2019 9:33am

No.

The directive is the "foundation" on which any law/statutory Instrument among member states is based. IF the directive were null and void then any member state that had not implemented it yet would have no need to do so.

Like an SI here. Without the principle act the SI amends/adds to the SI would have no basis on which to function. Same applies to the directives and in some cases regulations that the EU sets out.

An SI amends the principal Acts it refers to, but does not need the same process as an Act. It is done and signed by the Minister and can be "undone" as quick. Just FYI.

BattleCorp · 13-08-2019 10:04am

Cass wrote: »

No.

The directive is the "foundation" on which any law/statutory Instrument among member states is based. IF the directive were null and void then any member state that had not implemented it yet would have no need to do so.

Like an SI here. Without the principle act the SI amends/adds to the SI would have no basis on which to function. Same applies to the directives and in some cases regulations that the EU sets out.

An SI amends the principal Acts it refers to, but does not need the same process as an Act. It is done and signed by the Minister and can be "undone" as quick. Just FYI.

Bad choice of words on my part using null and void.

My point is that the directive is just a bit of paper 'now' and not law because we have implemented it in a way that we see fit.

That's the point of a directive. It sets out the aims to be achieved but broadly leaves it up to the individual States to decide how to go about doing it.

So the SI is the law but the directive is the instruction to make the law, it's not the law itself once the SI has been drafted.

Cass · 13-08-2019 10:10am

In that sense, yes.

However the directive is still there, it's still in place, and still legally enforceable if for no other reason than if the SI (or the equivalent in other countries) does not properly address the directive's objective(s) then the EU can take legal action against whichever member state has improperly implemented the directive to make it more germane to the directive.

Grizzly 45 · 13-08-2019 11:11am

yubabill wrote: »

The acquisition of loading devices for centre-fire semi-automatic firearms which can hold more than 20 rounds or more than 10 rounds in the case of long firearms shall be permitted only for persons who are granted an authorisation under Article 6 or an authorisation which has been confirmed, renewed or prolonged under Article 7(4a)."

Again, this is a emergency exit built into the SI by Europe,and left open to interpertation by each state.The Italians land others left it,that id you are a liscensed holder and a paid up member of a range and shoot a recognisedd disipline .IRRESPECTIVE of round count.You are good to go.

BattleCorp · 13-08-2019 11:16am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Again, this is a emergency exit built into the SI by Europe,and left open to interpertation by each state.The Italians land others left it,that id you are a liscensed holder and a paid up member of a range and shoot a recognisedd disipline .IRRESPECTIVE of round count.You are good to go.

As Marian Harkin told the few of us who attended the meeting in Athlone, look out for the 'gold plating'.

Grizzly 45 · 13-08-2019 11:19am

Very true.

yubabill · 13-08-2019 11:28am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Again, this is a emergency exit built into the SI by Europe,and left open to interpertation by each state.The Italians land others left it,that id you are a liscensed holder and a paid up member of a range and shoot a recognisedd disipline .IRRESPECTIVE of round count.You are good to go.

I interpret that section as anyone licensed for a B/A C/F which accepts large cap mags can possess them, while those licensed for S/A cannot, outside the exemptions.

Also, anyone know how the legal challenges to the directive (CZ) are going?

Grizzly 45 · 13-08-2019 11:48am

yubabill wrote: »

I interpret that section as anyone licensed for a B/A C/F which accepts large cap mags can possess them, while those licensed for S/A cannot, outside the exemptions.

Also, anyone know how the legal challenges to the directive (CZ) are going?

The word to watch is "repeating firearms" A VERRY broad definition.As every mag fed gun is a repeater by design.
Anyhoo, they are not mentioned in the SI here so those vew that are out there are ok.But remember ,if you have a semi auto that can accept these mags and a bolt action that can do likewise you are still in trouble.As one of them must go,either th semi rifle or the mags.

And lets Not go to things like pistol cal carbines that take Glock mags,and owning both a pistol and carbine.[IE the new Ruger PC9] Possesing both are legal and illegal to own at the same time.. A HUGE can of worms at the moment in Germany,along with the fact some calibers like the 450 SOCOM,which are great wild boar droppers, and the like NEED a 20 round sized magazine,just to be able to hold the legal ten rounds. Or how do you deal with the Lancer magazine that is adaptable and extendable?
And we think we have problems??:)

The Czech appeal,is in preliminary EU court at the moment.The EU has issued their justification for this ,and even why it didnt do an impact study on this legislation.T[RANS ..We wanted to ban stuff in a hurry,and werent arsed].Think it should be heard next year.

I'l update it if I find out anything.

yubabill · 13-08-2019 11:57am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The word to watch is "repeating firearms" A VERRY broad definition.As every mag fed gun is a repeater by design.
Anyhoo, they are not mentioned in the SI here so those vew that are out there are ok.But remember ,if you have a semi auto that can accept these mags and a bolt action that can do likewise you are still in trouble.As one of them must go,either th semi rifle or the mags.

And lets Not go to things like pistol cal carbines that take Glock mags,and owning both a pistol and carbine.[IE the new Ruger PC9] Possesing both are legal and illegal to own at the same time.. A HUGE can of worms at the moment in Germany,along with the fact some calibers like the 450 SOCOM,which are great wild boar droppers, and the like NEED a 20 round sized magazine,just to be able to hold the legal ten rounds. Or how do you deal with the Lancer magazine that is adaptable and extendable?
And we think we have problems??:)

The Czech appeal,is in preliminary EU court at the moment.The EU has issued their justification for this ,and even why it didnt do an impact study on this legislation.T[RANS ..We wanted to ban stuff in a hurry,and werent arsed].Think it should be heard next year.

I'l update it if I find out anything.

Only semi auto people are banned from possessing mags over 10 rounds by my reading. Bolt action (interpreted as repeating long guns over 60 cm) are not and by the legal axiom of not being specifically described as illegal, are legally allowed to have mags over 10 rounds. That's my interpretation.

Now, if you own both semi and bolt with rounds over 10 capacity as above, then you cannot have.

Grizzly 45 · 13-08-2019 4:40pm

I never understsnd this logic.Having 10 rounds in packs of x numbet is fine.But somehow having a greater number in a single box is more leathl?

hiddenmongoose · 13-08-2019 5:46pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I never understsnd this logic.Having 10 rounds in packs of x numbet is fine.But somehow having a greater number in a single box is more leathl?

It makes no sense nor does it make any impact on any sort of criminal behavior/act.

What it does achieve is hinder law abiding firearms owners and erode away slowly at what we can own, mags down to 10 rounders in this go, next time mags to 5 rounders, next time its 3 rounders then internal mags only. A slow process but each step is a victory for the anti-gun brigade/legislators who want no guns in private ownership. Therein lies the root of why we should all support each other, regardless of whether the mag capacity or whatever law affects you, because if they can nibble away at one part today it is another tomorrow and so on, soon it will be something that does affect you and then its too late. Irish shooting community is too fractured, too small minded, lacking tact and unfortunately not represented at the levels needed to make any difference.

greencap · 13-08-2019 5:56pm

solarwinds wrote: »

You are equating illegal criminal behaviour with the law abiding firearms owners, something the uninformed general population do with help from our leaders and media because at the minute its popular.
Drug use illegal here, does not stop children over dosing weekly.
Alcohol illegal to under 18's, go to any A&E at the weekend and see how that law is working out.
Certain firearms were illegal here for 30 years and some still are, that law didn't stop a hotel being shot up.
Show me one law or further restriction that wasn't a knee jerk reaction to be seen to do something that actually saved a life.
I am sorry if you think our government are going to do anything to help its people. Time has proven they are reactionary only when forced to by public outcry. Look at the cervical scandal for example, how many reports were conducted last year and lessons had to be learned yet today they are still covering up scandals and putting peoples lives at risk.
It is that same thinking of faith in our government that got the greens elected to help save the world because "Green" is the popular buzz word, let us see how popular they still are after they hit the general population in the only place they care about, their wallets and purses.
Great advice given above, call to a local club and see for yourself what actually happens, I think you will be surprised at the professionalism people there conduct themselves with, the overwhelming array of safety rules we abide by and the fun that can be had, and see does that equate to what is portrayed about us in the media. You will be only too welcome to come along any time you like and no shortage of people here willing to bring you.

i consider myself unable to fully reply. im choosing my words carefully.

i believe the laws on this issue will be tightened, despite protest by members here. and that that will be the last word. long after any replies here. i welcome this. bye.

Grizzly 45 · 13-08-2019 8:57pm

greencap wrote: »

i consider myself unable to fully reply. im choosing my words carefully.

i believe the laws on this issue will be tightened, despite protest by members here. and that that will be the last word. long after any replies here. i welcome this. bye.

IOW you have bitten off more than you could chew with this???

Yeah you are better off on the political thread with the other idiots blathering on about a country that they have no knowledge of, or of its firearms laws,orhave never owned a gun in it and are just echo chambering opinions they have learned from MSM, or Hollywood to each other,and have zero clue about the reality of trying to disarm a country of 320 million people with now about half a billion firearms and over one trillion rounds of ammo.Belive me if they were a problem ,the world would know about it. Bye bye now..

oldgit1897 · 13-08-2019 9:10pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

IOW you have bitten off more than you could chew with this??? Yeah you are better off on the political thread with the other idiots blathering on about a country that they have no knowledge of, or of its firearms laws,orhave never owned a gun in it and are just echo chambering opinions they have learned from MSM, or Hollywood to each other,and have zero clue about the reality of trying to disarm a country of 320 million people with now about half a billion firearms and over one trillion rounds of ammo.Belive me if they were a problem ,the world would know about it. Bye bye now..

You know what they say Grizz, don't feed them.

Grizzly 45 · 13-08-2019 9:16pm

I know,but there are some things best left SAID!

meathstevie · 13-08-2019 10:50pm

greencap wrote: »

i consider myself unable to fully reply. im choosing my words carefully.

i believe the laws on this issue will be tightened, despite protest by members here. and that that will be the last word. long after any replies here. i welcome this. bye.

Bye bye, I don't know what you were doing here in the first place attempting to preach to a bunch of law abiding gun owners who are concerned that they're facing more needless hoops to jump through based on rather poorly concocted legislation.

If you're worried about firearms crime you're in the wrong forum in the first place. As firearms owners we're collectively worried about gun crime as well.

First and foremost out of concern for the victims and second because we know that eventually some knee-jerk reaction will come from some level of government negatively affecting us while the criminal and the terrorist happily swagger on whistling a merry tune.

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County