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Our Sport is Under Attack Again

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    grassroot1 wrote: »
    I would consider myself reasonably well informed and I was unaware of the implications of the directive and the SI until yesterday.
    Those at the top of our associations are volunteers not paid professionals.I am not defending them just pointing this out. I have seen the Facebook posts and yes there is an element of rabbit in the spotlights about the response.
    What needs to be done now is to formulate a workable interpretation of the SI.
    Clearly all gun parts cannot be marked its not workable neither should someone going hunting with a belt of 25 shells have to have a lockable box with them.
    Commonsense is required but there is not a great history of that in relation to firearms law in this country.

    I would be concerned regarding the storage of ammo , I ofthe will go out for a shot with the full magazine in my pocket and drive to wherever I shoot, as the ammunition is now not in a locked seperate container I am now committing an offence?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    [QUOTE=Cass;110942948]If its imported directly from outside the EU into the state (Ireland). Then yes.

    This raises the question of essential component. Is a bolt handle essential to the working of a firearm? Like a stock. I wouldn't class it as an essential component because it can be used without a stock, but the law says it's a component part.

    The SI is very poorly worded, overly vague, and leaves far to much ambiguity. The other side of it all is enforcement.

    I won't pretend to understand stop and search laws, but if you're in your car can any Garda stop you, search your vehicle and if they find a violation of this new SI will they notice it?

    This leads onto to just cause for stopping you and wanting to search your car/vehicle. I don't believe, although i'm not batting a 1,000 lately, that random stop and searches can be carried out without due cause.

    Same with your home. The CPO can call out, but can they perform checks of all homes with firearms. Will AGS "regular"members be assigned this and can they do it both physically and legally?

    Then in the field. Rangers have certain powers under the wildlife act but does that extend to the same powers as AGS in this situation or will AGS be carrying out checks in the field.

    I'm not for one second condoning breaking the law, nothing of the sort, but rather pointing out how more laws without proper enforcement of the current ones may be the most futile thing i've seen.[/QUOTE]

    Are you sure ?

    “Schedule 3
    Part 1
    Regulations 3AB and 3AC
    1. Subject to paragraph 2, where a firearm to which the Directive applies or an essential component is manufactured in the State, the unique marking shall comprise a human readable identification consisting of:
    (a) the name of the manufacturer or brand;
    (b) the name of the S..........


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭greencap


    so you might have to change magazine. who cares.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Are you sure ?
    Pretty sure.

    The markings part of the SI is directed towards items brought in from outside the EU or manufactured in the state.

    Importing from outside the "Union".
    4) Where the State is the place of import into the Union of a firearm to which this Regulation applies, each essential component of the firearm shall, at the time of its manufacture or without delay after importation into the Union, be marked with a unique marking which shall comprise the particulars specified in Part 2 of Schedule 3.

    Manufactured in the state.
    3) A manufacturer of a firearm to which this Regulation applies shall ensure that, at the time of its manufacture or, at the latest, before its placement on the market, each essential component of the firearm is marked with a unique marking which shall comprise the particulars specified in Part 1 of Schedule 3

    And the bit about essential components:
    The unique marking referred to in paragraph (3) or (4), as the case may be, shall be engraved permanently upon the essential component concerned, to a minimum depth of 0.04 millimetres.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭hiddenmongoose


    greencap wrote: »
    so you might have to change magazine. who cares.


    Clarify what you mean by this.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    greencap wrote: »
    so you might have to change magazine. who cares.

    No If I have a loaded megazine or seperate ammo and it is not in a locked recepticle; I will be guilty of an offence.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    grassroot1 wrote: »
    I would consider myself reasonably well informed and I was unaware of the implications of the directive and the SI until yesterday.
    I consider myself very well informed (not being big headed) and i did not know the SI would drop when it did. However that is different to not knowing it would be coming, ever.
    Those at the top of our associations are volunteers not paid professionals.I am not defending them just pointing this out. I have seen the Facebook posts and yes there is an element of rabbit in the spotlights about the response.
    Exactly, and to reiterate i'm NOT blaming the NARGC for ANYTHING. I'm just surprised they seemed so totally unaware this was coming.

    I'm tired of saying it, and people are tired of hearing it, but whenever the EU draft a directive each member state must draft new legislation to incorporate that directive into their laws. We discussed this ban, and others, ad nauseam, on two main threads here for the past 3+ years and yes there were times even my eyes glazed over when trying to shift through the quagmire of proposals and "what ifs". So i don't blame anyone for not understanding it completely (including myself)
    What needs to be done now is to formulate a workable interpretation of the SI.
    On a lighter and somewhat snarky side we cannot get consensus on our current laws in a workable manner and they've been on the book for 10 years. :D
    Clearly all gun parts cannot be marked its not workable
    Its important to note that it's not all guns.

    As you said its so new [the SI] that no one is 100% sure on the interpretation of it, but for me the markings issue as i said above is down to guns or parts imported from outside the EU or those that are made in the state, as in gunsmiths creating custom firearms.

    If the parts or guns are bought within the EU then there will be no need as it's already done by the manufacturer/importer of them into the EU.
    neither should someone going hunting with a belt of 25 shells have to have a lockable box with them.
    Seeing as how it's a law the debate on what someone should have to do it kinda moot. An ammo box with a padlock on it is a locked receptacle so for €15 to €20 a person can suffice this part of the SI.Stick your ammo in it, either in the belt or in the boxes and the belt loose in the car, and prepare yourself when you get to the range/field.
    Commonsense is required but there is not a great history of that in relation to firearms law in this country.
    Amen.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Chiparus wrote: »
    No If I have a loaded megazine or seperate ammo and it is not in a locked recepticle; I will be guilty of an offence.
    While transporting them, only.

    When you get to where you are going you are no longer transporting them.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    I cant wait to see how the firing pin being made for my .22lr is going to be engraved with a serial no. it is a vital component so therefore must be marked.
    Is this the level of daftness we are facing now, its not very workable from what I can see. Ok for the major components barrel, action, bolt or other essential parts but it doesn't draw the line at individual components.
    I am going to try an engrave my serial no. on my new recoil spring, will let ye know how I get on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Cass wrote: »
    While transporting them, only.

    When you get to where you are going you are no longer transporting them.

    Yep , so no more loaded magazines in the pocket or in the center console?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭hiddenmongoose


    Cass wrote: »
    While transporting them, only.

    When you get to where you are going you are no longer transporting them.


    And therein in lies the absolute absurdity of the whole thing, having to put my cartridge belt in a box while i drive 10 mins from my house to the shoreline for an evening at the ducks, or having to lock away my 5 round mag while I spin 5 mins from my house to my deer permission, or while out for an evening after foxes, lock my ammo each time I get into the car and spin another 1kilometer down the lane to the next farm I have permission on. Totally and utterly ridiculous.
    Who is this safeguarding? who is this protecting? how is this making criminal behavior any more difficult . complete and utter stupidity and achieving nothing other than making life more difficult for the law abiding firearms owner. Those that believe there is no issue here or that this is ok are worse than the EU anti-gun bureaucrats passing said law.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    solarwinds wrote: »
    I cant wait to see how the firing pin being made for my .22lr is going to be engraved with a serial no. it is a vital component so therefore must be marked.
    And therein in lies the absolute absurdity of the whole thing, having to put my cartridge belt in a box while i drive 10 mins from my house to the shoreline for an evening at the ducks,.........

    And therein lies my point about enforcement, for both examples.

    How can anyone tell if the firing pin your rifle is a new one you got made?

    Same with traveling 5 or 10 minutes down the road. How can anyone say, if you're out of the car, that you used the appropriate locked receptacle?

    You are both right in how ridiculous it is.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

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  • Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭hiddenmongoose


    Cass wrote: »

    Same with traveling 5 or 10 minutes down the road. How can anyone say, if you're out of the car, that you used the appropriate locked receptacle?

    .


    Because if your stopped while driving and get the wrong guy stopping you..


    This is my point , I am surely not advocating breaking the law, however I am saying that this is ridiculous beyond absurdity and as a shooting community we need to do something about this, Irish shooting community needs to come together, the day of countless alphabet firearms groups all busy infighting and only worried about their own niche needs to end. Few are talking about the magazine restriction, why, because it doesnt affect them, typical small minded Irish stupidity. The next step will be no 10round mags, then no 5 round mags only 3 rounders, now the hunters are upset and involved but too late, next it will be no detachable mags only inbuilt 3 round top fed box style.

    Shooters need to get their heads out of the sand and let go of egos and see what is happening


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭blackbox


    And therein in lies the absolute absurdity of the whole thing, having to put my cartridge belt in a box while i drive 10 mins from my house to the shoreline for an evening at the ducks, or having to lock away my 5 round mag while I spin 5 mins from my house to my deer permission, or while out for an evening after foxes, lock my ammo each time I get into the car and spin another 1kilometer down the lane to the next farm I have permission on. Totally and utterly ridiculous.
    Who is this safeguarding? who is this protecting? how is this making criminal behavior any more difficult . complete and utter stupidity and achieving nothing other than making life more difficult for the law abiding firearms owner. Those that believe there is no issue here or that this is ok are worse than the EU anti-gun bureaucrats passing said law.

    Doesn't it mean that if the guards stop a car full of thugs with loaded guns they can convict them of an offence that can not be defended by "we were only out looking for foxes that killed our hens". It would be much more difficult to prove that they intended to harm someone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    I can see why they wanted to bring in marking of firearm components, to probably combat back yard shops manufacturing illegal firearms. But again it wasnt thought through to an everyday implementable level.
    Also i dont think the manufacture of illegal firearms is a serious issue, its just as easy and cheaper to get the real thing than to go out and buy the necessary machinery to do it.
    When you see some of the hardware these lads have you have to wonder who is supplying them.
    And sure when all else fails just use a truck, a car or even a knife. No amount of laws or restrictions on law abiding people will stop certain elements from achieving their goals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭hiddenmongoose


    blackbox wrote: »
    Doesn't it mean that if the guards stop a car full of thugs with loaded guns they can convict them of an offence that can not be defended by "we were only out looking for foxes that killed our hens". It would be much more difficult to prove that they intended to harm someone.


    so what if you hop into your car to move 1km down to the next permission and say ah il chance it..and dont lock your 5 round mag away...are you now a ''thug that was moving with intent to harm someone''?



    your scenario assumes the above thugs are only being charged with not having their ammo locked..that meant they were legal firearms owners (as if they were illegally held firearms the gardai could obviously charge them with that)..are you implying that legal firearms owners are traveling around with intent to harm people?... and even if so..(which is stupid) why if they are using legally held firearms would they not lock the ammo away in case they were stopped, and just remove it on arrival at whatever location they wished to do someone harm( therefore preventing the chance of being stopped and caught en route.




    Loaded guns is not the same as a man with his rifle in the back seat and a 5 round mag in his pocket or glovebox or frontseat, trying to justify it with the above scenario is ridiculous and using such scenarios leads to the '' why would you need a magazine of 5 rounds..or a gunbelt of 25 cartridges ect ect. Do not be fooled or sucked into believing this law will in anyway help reduce criminal activity.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Because if your stopped while driving and get the wrong guy stopping you..
    Correct, but how often does that happen. I'm shooting nearly thirty years and never been stopped in that manner. Also as i said above:
    Cass wrote:
    I won't pretend to understand stop and search laws, but if you're in your car can any Garda stop you, search your vehicle and if they find a violation of this new SI will they notice it?

    This leads onto to just cause for stopping you and wanting to search your car/vehicle. I don't believe, although i'm not batting a 1,000 lately, that random stop and searches can be carried out without due cause.
    Few are talking about the magazine restriction, why, because it doesnt affect them, typical small minded Irish stupidity. The next step will be no 10round mags, then no 5 round mags only 3 rounders, now the hunters are upset and involved but too late, next it will be no detachable mags only inbuilt 3 round top fed box style.
    Myself and Grizz were back a couple of pages. Both of us own semi auto rifles and both of us are affected. Grizz is annoyed at this, and i am to a degree, but not to the extent i'm upset. Two reasons for this:
    1. I found out about this restriction when the EU final directive was published so i knew it was coming.
    2. I'm not a big user of higher capacity mags. I own a few, that i'll now have to dispose of, but the majority of my mags are ten round.

    My annoyance only comes from the harsher implementation of the directive by the SI than is in the original Directive. The EU directive says if you are involved in sports shooting of certain types and a member of a range you can possess high capacity mags, but the SI removed this bit of the directive (which the Government can legally do) so Irish shooters won't have this option.
    Shooters need to get their heads out of the sand and let go of egos and see what is happening
    Agree 100%.
    solarwinds wrote: »
    I can see why they wanted to bring in marking of firearm components, to probably combat back yard shops manufacturing illegal firearms. ......... Also i don't think the manufacture of illegal firearms is a serious issue,.........
    Its not. All stats we have access to would support this and the "stats" you find on gunpolicy or Wikipedia are averages based on more averages from other countries. Absolutely no basis in reality.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    " Its not. All stats we have access to would support this and the "stats" you find on gunpolicy or Wikipedia are averages based on more averages from other countries. Absolutely not basis in reality."

    Thats my point so why the need for this additional marking of components, again with all these things its not the now we need to look at, its what this opens the door to in 5 or 10 years time.
    These lads always play the long game by chipping away so slowly all of a sudden you wake up one morning to find the ARU outside your local €2 shop seizing their stock of cap guns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭hiddenmongoose


    Cass wrote: »
    Correct, but how often does that happen. I'm shooting nearly thirty years and never been stopped in that manner. .


    I have had this happen more times than I have been stopped and breathalyzed ..and I certainly wouldnt chance drink driving..would you chance losing your guns.. we already had a person post thinking it would help prevent thugs driving around with intent to harm people(such stupidity).

    Point being it only takes the wrong person stopping you, with the wrong view of firearms.


    What can honestly be done now though?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    solarwinds wrote: »
    Thats my point so why the need for this additional marking of components, again with all these things its not the now we need to look at, its what this opens the door to in 5 or 10 years time.
    These lads always play the long game by chipping away so slowly all of a sudden you wake up one morning to find the ARU outside your local €2 shop seizing their stock of cap guns.
    Wouldn't argue with any of that.

    I agree its a long game and we tend to focus on the here and now, however this was an EU thing so whatever chance we have of being involved on national issues we have no chance when it comes to EU stuff.

    That is not defeatist, however we have 11 MEPs, none of whom would support us and even if they did it's 11 out of 750. Look at the entire EU and the numbers on "our side" are still too small. I hate to sound like a broken record but the current trend of virtue signaling means we will always be the whipping boys when it comes to firearms.

    Think about it. All this is in response to the shootings that occur with semi auto firearms, even though they account for less than 10% of the total shootings. They were purposely targeted as is evident by the language and named firearm types. This means i am now punished for the actions of others and not because of my own. How is that fair?
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I have had this happen more times than I have been stopped and breathalyzed
    Never been stopped, never been breathalyzed, etc. Lucky or what? :)
    ..would you chance losing your guns..
    Nope. However i already use lock boxes when i travel. Not being a "goody two shoes", just something i've always done. possibly why i'm not taking this new laws as badly as others.
    we already had a person post thinking it would help prevent thugs driving around with intent to harm people(such stupidity).
    I agree, without sounding like a sensitive sod, that the word thug is a poor choice of words but it shows the prevailing attitudes. Same as those that think all semi auto rifles are ARs, that they're assault weapons, that they are full auto, that they are used on combat, that they can fire 1,200 rounds a minute.

    This misinformation, which we mock, is not an accident. It's a purposeful act of misinformation to scare the 90% of the population that has no interest or knowledge of firearms into believing that such laws are making them safer.
    Point being it only takes the wrong person stopping you, with the wrong view of firearms.
    You're right.
    What can honestly be done now though?
    Nothing. Without being a pessimist, not a bloody thing. Even if you could have the SI reviewed there are minimum standards it must "comply" with so as to be relevant to the EU directive. The SI can be harsher, but not more lenient if i have the way it works right.

    So this would need to be challenged on an EU level, then on an Irish level. The problem with that is it took three years to draft the EU directive because of the involvement of the EU shooting groups so i'd imagine this final draft is the "best" that they [shooting groups] could manage.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭greencap


    solarwinds wrote: »
    I can see why they wanted to bring in marking of firearm components, to probably combat back yard shops manufacturing illegal firearms. But again it wasnt thought through to an everyday implementable level.
    Also i dont think the manufacture of illegal firearms is a serious issue, its just as easy and cheaper to get the real thing than to go out and buy the necessary machinery to do it.
    When you see some of the hardware these lads have you have to wonder who is supplying them.
    And sure when all else fails just use a truck, a car or even a knife. No amount of laws or restrictions on law abiding people will stop certain elements from achieving their goals.

    but they will get in the way as much as possible, which is what a govt is supposed to do.
    the best we can do is elect people to hinder criminality, we cant just fix the world.
    we'll never stop drug smuggling, or people smuggling, they'll always find a way.

    but thats not a reason to do away with patrols and customs/passport checks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭oldgit1897


    We are now nothing more than a bought and paid for colony of the eu. Whatever is proposed by the eu will be enthusiastically adoped here. Veruca and that lot are not going to pee-off the eu, especially for us, the shooting community, who they wouldn't care if we disappeared overnight like lord lucan.

    Nothing we can do here. Maybe the larger countries like France and Germany with much bigger shooting communities can muster more resistance. But i doubt any attention will be paid to them either.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    This is one of those situations where it's not a case of who is the better lackie.

    When each country signed up to the EU they agreed to certain things. Among those are adopting EU wide directives. The EU sets them, and each country can implement them as they are drafted or choose to be more harsh, but not more lenient than the drafted directive. There is an option for veto, i believe, but i've not heard of any country using this on firearm related stuff.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,255 ✭✭✭.243


    garv123 wrote: »
    Does it actually say it has to locked, or just lockable? :D
    What’s wrong with using your glove box if it’s lockable by key ????


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    .243 wrote: »
    What’s wrong with using your glove box if it’s lockable by key ????

    The belt of cartridges wont fit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Peppa Cig


    .243 wrote: »
    garv123 wrote: »
    Does it actually say it has to locked, or just lockable? :D
    What’s wrong with using your glove box if it’s lockable by key ????

    Supers will end up making their own interpretation/requirements under the new SI.

    Expect wide ongoing/unfair inconsistency between AGS districts. Some Supers won’t specify anything. Others will require seperate ammo safes in house (to specific standard). Others may require locked safe in vehicle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Peppa Cig


    .243 wrote: »
    garv123 wrote: »
    Does it actually say it has to locked, or just lockable? :D
    What’s wrong with using your glove box if it’s lockable by key ????

    Supers will end up making their own interpretation/requirements under the new SI.

    Expect wide ongoing/unfair inconsistency between AGS districts. Some Supers won’t specify anything. Others will require seperate ammo safes in house (to specific standard). Others may require locked safe in vehicle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    greencap wrote: »
    solarwinds wrote: »
    I can see why they wanted to bring in marking of firearm components, to probably combat back yard shops manufacturing illegal firearms. But again it wasnt thought through to an everyday implementable level.
    Also i dont think the manufacture of illegal firearms is a serious issue, its just as easy and cheaper to get the real thing than to go out and buy the necessary machinery to do it.
    When you see some of the hardware these lads have you have to wonder who is supplying them.
    And sure when all else fails just use a truck, a car or even a knife. No amount of laws or restrictions on law abiding people will stop certain elements from achieving their goals.

    but they will get in the way as much as possible, which is what a govt is supposed to do.
    the best we can do is elect people to hinder criminality, we cant just fix the world.
    we'll never stop drug smuggling, or people smuggling, they'll always find a way.

    but thats not a reason to do away with patrols and customs/passport checks.


    Imposing more laws and restrictions on law abiding gun owners is not going to hinder or inconvenience criminals one bit.
    So if criminal activity will always find a way whats the point in imposing more daft laws.
    No one ever mentioned doing away with border checks or passport control. On the contrary if the borders were better resourced it would definitely have a positive impact on ILLEGAL gun imports for the purpose of murder.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    .243 wrote: »
    garv123 wrote: »
    Does it actually say it has to locked, or just lockable? :D
    What’s wrong with using your glove box if it’s lockable by key ????
    Nothing, but it might be a tight squeeze


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