Our Sport is Under Attack Again

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

SIGH!!! Ok Again...Utterely revelant,as it is an escape clause in the directive that could have been transposed into national law The directive created this sI so therefore it is absolutely revelant to this mess.

Highlighted the relevant bit that pertains to Irish law and Irish shooters. It wasn't, so on we go.

So shooting IPSC outside the ROI and having the revelant equipment to do so is illegal??Intresting..

I'll highlight the bit you missed when you quoted my post:

Cass wrote:

So anyone doing this here will be breaking the law.

If it was an option,dont you think it would have been included??

They didn't do it in 2009 for unrestricted semi auto rimfire pistols until it was eventually clarified by SI391/2015. Permanently block you mags and continue using them if you want, but make it known that it's your choice and not a loophole to be exploited or worse again completely legal because none of us can say for sure.

Sometimes vagueness is intentional, not accidental.

Yeah,national law,not an EU directive banning certain types of items,and guns,but leaving lots of door open,so as not to have to ban them either as the EU realised what sort of clusterfuk ,it had created with this legislation on national levels in implimentation.

The intent of the EU directive is now moot with the drafting of the SI.

As the law stands they have NO option to decide policy on this.

Are you not arguing FOR the ability to block the mags instead of destroying them? If a CS agrees with your interpretation of the SI and allows the permanent, and irreversible, blocking of a mag instead of destruction or surrender is this not what you want?

Its two options. neither of them workable within the timeframe given.

What two?

they can then explain in the high court,as to why they decided to confiscate ligitimate property off Irish citizens,with no compensation.

€100,000+ for each high court case for what, €50 - €150 p/p worth of mags? (depending on individual ownership rates)

Or in Europe,thats how far I'm ready to go.

Bring sandwiches.

We've only been rattling on about this on the "more crap on the way" thread for the last what FOUR years? .

I know, as do some others, but when you shout the sky is falling for four years people tend to loose interest until it actually happens. Also the amount of people engaged on that thread probably numbers in the..................... tens.

When i say caught off guard the EU stuff was coming and known, but the SI, according the few releases/contacts i've made to various groups, was completely out of the blue, did not go through the FCP, and so was unexpected.

Brontosaurus

I'm a bit confused here:

I have a 10/22 for the past 2 years, do I need to now go and get the bolt carrier/barrel/stock marked?

Also when they say restrictions on the "import or manufacture" of firearm parts needing to be marked, there are plenty of airsoft lads who use real stocks, grips, handguards, pins,charging handles etc., so do they now need to get their toys marked with serial numbers for firearms they don't possess?

Will airsofters now be prosecuted for having unlicensed firearms in the guise of non-essential parts?

And due to them getting away with it for years, I'd imagine they won't be, which begs the question why they don't enforce the law equally?

Also I suppose if I ductape my rifle to a 2x4 I've just manufactured a firearm/firearm part?

BattleCorp

Brontosaurus wrote: »

I'm a bit confused here:

I have a 10/22 for the past 2 years, do I need to now go and get the bolt carrier/barrel/stock marked?

Also when they say restrictions on the "import or manufacture" of firearm parts needing to be marked, there are plenty of airsoft lads who use real stocks, grips, handguards, pins,charging handles etc., so do they now need to get their toys marked with serial numbers for firearms they don't possess?

Will airsofters now be prosecuted for having unlicensed firearms in the guise of non-essential parts?

And due to them getting away with it for years, I'd imagine they won't be, which begs the question why they don't enforce the law equally?

Also I suppose if I ductape my rifle to a 2x4 I've just manufactured a firearm/firearm part?

If you have your 10/22 for over 2 years, then you don't have to get it marked. That's only for guns that came into the EU after September 2018.

Grizzly 45

I have a 10/22 for the past 2 years, do I need to now go and get the bolt carrier/barrel/stock marked?

NO! And you have never had to get the stock marked either.

Also when they say restrictions on the "import or manufacture" of firearm parts needing to be marked, there are plenty of airsoft lads who use real stocks, grips, handguards, pins,charging handles etc., so do they now need to get their toys marked with serial numbers for firearms they don't possess?

None of those are B]critical pressure bearing parts[/B],which are coverd by EU legislation..So you can tart up your airsoft with all sorts of genuine BCM and Magpul stuff no problem

Will airsofters now be prosecuted for having unlicensed firearms in the guise of non-essential parts?

No,as they have good reason to own on an airsoft .Plus how can you tell genuine parts from fake Chinese parts? Its all made in China these days, just seems to grow in price once it hits a dealer.
But best ask the DOJ on that one...They write this stuff...
:rolleyes:
[
QUOTE]And due to them getting away with it for years, I'd imagine they won't be, which begs the question why they don't enforce the law equally?[/QUOTE]

Cos airsofties arent considerd a threat or using real guns in any shape or form.:rolleyes:

Also I suppose if I ductape my rifle to a 2x4 I've just manufactured a firearm/firearm part?

No,you just duct taped your rifle to a 2X4.:) Did you produce any shavings?Spall,metal chips,etc? You didnt manufacture anything,as you haven't converted a piece of raw material into somthing useable for your rifle.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Highlighted the relevant bit that pertains to Irish law and Irish shooters. It wasn't, so on we go.

On we go to ask whenever we get a meeting,why wasnt it considerd?Why was no one in the organisations consulted on this?Why was this rushed thru in a Summer recesses?

They didn't do it in 2009 for unrestricted semi auto rimfire pistols until it was eventually clarified by SI391/2015. Permanently block you mags and continue using them if you want, but make it known that it's your choice and not a loophole to be exploited or worse again completely legal because none of us can say for sure.

Which took , I belive 2 HC cases to sort out the first bit,which then gave us the
SI.And on the other two points,we will need legal opinion and decision to have legal provenance.:(

Sometimes vagueness is intentional, not accidental.

In yopur experiance has this govt ever been vauge on EU directives?We literally try and transpose them verbatim into national law.Why would e,specially this, be any different?

The intent of the EU directive is now moot with the drafting of the SI.

The contents are not moot tho.

Are you not arguing FOR the ability to block the mags instead of destroying them? If a CS agrees with your interpretation of the SI and allows the permanent, and irreversible, blocking of a mag instead of destruction or surrender is this not what you want?

I am,but as THE LAW is now written,it doesn't seem to be an option.Just because it is not written,does'nt make it legal either...And a CS opinion is not law either as we know,[as well as being transient for as long as they are in charge of your district] and have said ourselves plenty of times.
This is law they have to deal with ,and as far as they are concerned,it has two options on what they have to to do with these. They are obliged to work and uphold the law as it stands,no matter how right or wrong...And they will tell you this too,that you will need a judge to give you a ruling on this,and they will follow that ruling too.
And in fairness to them,this time they are not at fault and didnt cause this, or on presumption of innocent until proven guilty, played no part in drafting this either.

No,this has more the smell and taste of some Jobsworthies in the DOJ,reading and looking at the calender for the holidays,picking somthing,and stiking it in an act for Charlie to sign off on,to keep our class swot position in Europe lest Angela looks with disfavour at us.

What two?

Export or surrender for destruction.

€100,000+ for each high court case for what, €50 - €150 p/p worth of mags? (depending on individual ownership rates)

Depending on make ...SIG 551@ E110 per mag X16 as someone we both know =1760 as an extreme case...But lets take a ballpark sums here .

Say generic mag @80 euros and average semi auto owner has possibly 2 each,whether unconverted or blocked to 10 =160 euros per shooter and we are what 180?SA owners here....32,500 euros +/- 5,000 [for variations on amounts,types,rarity value etc] Grand total ESTIMATED 37,500.

Replacement 10 shot mags generic,and if can be got at the moment, with a possible 4month pre order time for such between 50 to 100 euros:(

I belive a HC injunction costs 1,500[?] All in. But I also belive there is an actual mechanism,to be able to legally stop or challenge SIs and EU directives being implimented.But its in utter legalese and I'll let legal counsel work and explain that one next week.

Bring sandwiches.

And my sleeping bag,and Tolstoys "War and Peace "[unabridged version, all 1,653 pages]:) Hell of a book to show someone you intend to wait them out .

I know, as do some others, but when you shout the sky is falling for four years people tend to loose interest until it actually happens. Also the amount of people engaged on that thread probably numbers in the..................... tens

.

25,807 views 1,314 replies over 3 years 9months. [one of the longest threads here on boards]You mean to tell me there was no one in any of our orgs or DOJ didnt read and heed or follow?Especially when the former chairman of the NARGC himself,arranged a meeting with an Irish MEP to discuss this "sky fall" event,and then the self same organisation assured their membesr right up to this year in Galway that "they are on it!",yet are utterly blindsided in their own country?

When i say caught off guard the EU stuff was coming and known, but the SI, according the few releases/contacts i've made to various groups, was completely out of the blue, did not go through the FCP, and so was unexpected.

What it tells me is that our orgs,dont have that great an insider info as they used to have on events like this happening.It's also why they should be budgeting retainers for Dail lobbyists. An absolute necessity these days for pro gun groups.

Well, lets see if they can redeem themselves next week and we'll see if this FCP is an actual co operative and two way information street as claimed,and whether our side can respond ?

Anyhoo,at this stage,we are now just chasing our tails and engaging in what and If aboutery here ,which is an unproductive use of time. We need people acting,and moving and getting together to go and meet their TD's and ministers and start getting legal advice and remedy,if we wnt this clarified properly and not have to go a court route,if at all possible.

Cass

Gonna cut down on the length of my responses because we're wandering into page long replies and it's getting tiresome reading and writing them, for everyone.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On we go to ask whenever we get a meeting,why wasnt it considerd?Why was no one in the organisations consulted on this?Why was this rushed thru in a Summer recesses?

Answer to all three is this simple. Because they can, and they don't need our input. Sickening, but true.

I am,but as THE LAW is now written,it doesn't seem to be an option.Just because it is not written,does'nt make it legal either...

Heh, heh. I was arguing this very point a few posts back. We're aligned on this point, to an extent. If the SI does not specifically prohibit it and permanent blocking means the 30 rounds mag is 30 round in spirit only, and forever and more is now a 10 round mag then it's legal. The SI says

"An issuing person shall revoke a firearm certificate in respect of a firearm classified in Category B of the Directive granted by the person where the holder of the certificate is found to be in possession of :

b) a loading device which can hold more than 10 rounds and is capable of being fitted to a centre-fire semi-automatic or repeating long firearm".

Permanently blocked is now no longer capable of holding more than 10. Still looks like a 30 round mag, but it's not. Yet ANOTHER aspect of this SI that creates more problems than it solves.

25,807 views 1,314 replies over 3 years 9months. [one of the longest threads here on boards]You mean to tell me there was no one in any of our orgs or DOJ didnt read and heed or follow?

Sure you and i could account for a hundred or more of those views. Each.

They probably read it, but my point it the attention span when there is no immediate threat is usually fairly short.

Especially when the former chairman of the NARGC himself,arranged a meeting with an Irish MEP to discuss this "sky fall" event,and then the self same organisation assured their membesr right up to this year in Galway that "they are on it!",yet are utterly blindsided in their own country?

So they say. Can only take their word for it and i've no reason not to.

Here is an idea and a constructive use of our time. Create a list of issues. Not gripes, but actual issues with the SI. Contradictions, messes it creates, the vagueness that may cause unintentional illegal action, etc, etc.

Zxthinger

Maine its time to stop posting every tiny loop hole here and highlighting the weaknesses in the system. The the no-good civil serverts are using this site as a tool and we keep telling the everything

yubabill

As regards to the confiscation of private property - mags over 10 rounds - in the SI, it has occurred to me that confiscation has been happening at airports for years now - they won't let you fly with sharp objects or liquids (over 100 mL, I think), so you either surrender them or post them to yourself.

People accepted this and heightened security checks after 9/11 and other terrorist attacks since, because they thought them tedious, but necessary.

So it's not surprising that politicians/civil servants feel comfortable imposing the requirement to surrender/export mags over 10 rounds.

But this is a clear contradiction of the right to private property which is one of the fundamental principles of law and of any functioning society outside of Mogadishu or Idlib.

Grizzly 45

As such they will argue,unless you have been living under a rock for the last 20 years...That it is a well known fact that you cant bring liquids or whatever into the secure area.So you are choosing to have your stuff confiscated by doing so.By accident or design.

This otoh is/was perfectly legal to posses,with a liscense here in the ROI a harmless inanimate box for your firearm.Thete are no recorded misuse of them in civillian hands that we the public are aware of.No one has shot up any schools or fast food outlets[VERY thankfully] with one,they are owned by less than 0.1% of the shooting pouplation,yet are now suddenly illegal courtsey of a dept misreading and hastily rushing thru a SI.

Ergo,this does fall foul of article 14 of the EUCHR.Which states quite clearly that if a Govt does make a item illegal that ws previously legal and enjoyed peacefully.It MUST offer recompense at good time market value for such.
As does to a lesser extent Article 46 of our own constitution,in the fact the state must protect the ownership of private property,and the fact that there is almost daily legal precedent for the state or bodies to pay compensation for loss of private property or livly hoods.I refer to cumpulsory purchase orders of "property".It says property,and that doesnt just mean "land or houses",which is the most common use of this. Or loss of livlyhood.IE turf cutters on protected bogs or the Shannon drift net fishermen.

Cass

Zxthinger wrote: »

Maine its time to stop posting every tiny loop hole here and highlighting the weaknesses in the system. The the no-good civil serverts are using this site as a tool and we keep telling the everything

Its good to think that people believe we have enough clout to influence legislation.

If there are any "loopholes" then the discussion of them here will not force an amendment or change to the legislation. It never has afaik.

What discussing it will do is inform people and warn them that any perceived loophole may or may not be a loophole and to try and implement it may result in loss of firearms. The SI specifically says anyone caught with a Cat B firearm and such a mag will have their license revoked.

Now some people can afford both the time and money to fight this in court and there is no doubt a court case will define what exactly is legal or not, but for those that cannot afford it who wants to chance loosing their firearm, not just the mags, over a supposed loophole.

Worse again those that are unaware that such an act/loophole (blocking a mag for example) may not be completely or even a little bit legal and proceed to do it under the advice of a friend or something they read, while unaware of what the SI says, will run the same risk of losing their firearm.


This is not one of those situations where being quiet and speaking about it as little as possible is the best course of action. No groups, organisation or association was involved with or consulted on the drafting of this SI. So its clear to see how much they value our input.

If there are loopholes, and if the loopholes we mention help to notify, advise, or even inform any person involved in a group thinking about taking action then there is no harm.

Lastly there is an FCP meeting scheduled for next week, or so i'm told, at which point all this "loopholes" and other problems with the SI are going to be laid out for the Minister (via his rep on the FCP).

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As does to a lesser extent Article 46 of our own constitution,in the fact the state must protect the ownership of private property,............

Hence the reason we are a Republic.

knockon

....and John Deasy will be retiring shortly ..”Asked about the highs and lows of political life, Mr Deasy said the high was banning the use of hand guns in 2008”

Source: RTE News

Good riddance!

solarwinds

knockon wrote: »

....and John Deasy will be retiring shortly ..”Asked about the highs and lows of political life, Mr Deasy said the high was banning the use of hand guns in 2008”

Source: RTE News

Good riddance!

He obviously doesnt watch the news otherwise he would have seen his ban had absolutely no effect on the native scumbag. Does not say much about him if he classes that as a high point in his career.

Brontosaurus

Can't wait to see ganglanders surrender their 30 round mags for their AKMs and UZIs

Grizzly 45

knockon wrote: »

....and John Deasy will be retiring shortly ..”Asked about the highs and lows of political life, Mr Deasy said the high was banning the use of hand guns in 2008”

Source: RTE News

Good riddance!

The man is a legend in hie own mind,and deluded...Hopefully his own vice for cancer sticks,will hasten his early demise. If it isnt already doing him in.

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

Maine its time to stop posting every tiny loop hole here and highlighting the weaknesses in the system. The the no-good civil serverts are using this site as a tool and we keep telling the everything

IF they had been paying attention and reading here,this large bucket of warm and smelly brown matter would have been prevented from landing on the ministers desk next week and in the forseeable future. ALL of this was pointed out TWO years ago as being potential problems for the Govt with this legislation.
So we can draw two conclusions here.[1] They thought they know it all better [2] They rushed this thru,not considering the full implications or ramifications byactually starting a confiscation.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.Hopefully his own vice for cancer sticks,will hasten his early demise. If it isnt already doing him in.

Duuudddeeee. No Mod hat on or anything like that (for clarification), just a personal opinion. Attack his policies, actions and previous history, but stooping to that is just.............. no.

I'll be glad to see the back of the man and his ignorant and short sighted policies that only serve to pad his political wallet while having absolutely NO effect on criminality.

Like the guy, cannot remember his name, from Sinn Fein during the Oireachtas sessions a few years back and he refused to call them firearms, but rather weapons. Knowing it'll be a key buzz word. Sinn Fein of all people, but again they won't be there forever.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Here is an idea and a constructive use of our time. Create a list of issues. Not gripes, but actual issues with the SI. Contradictions, messes it creates, the vagueness that may cause unintentional illegal action, etc, etc.

OK here goes;
The ban of magazines with a capacity above 20 rounds in short firearms,and 10 rounds in long firearms,and the banning of firearms with a "length[???]" of 60 cms with a folding stock[1] and the banning of former select fire firearms that have been converted to semi auto only is both farught with constitutional pitfalls under Article 46 of the Irish constitution and under Article 14 of the European Charter of Human Rights.As the Irish constitution in this article grauntees a citizens right to posses private property,and persue a livly hood,and shall only be deprived of it save under the common good,but to which a citizen has remedy in law to apply for compenation for their "property.Which is not specified in laws as to what property is defined as

Article 14 of EUCHR.States that where property that was legal and peacefully enjoyed by any EU citizen,and a state makes its possesion illegal,it must recompense the citizen to market value on a good day,before it was made illegal,and within a timely manner.

Therefore as the SI now stands on those points,it is a clear intent to confiscate such items or deprive Irsh gunowners of their use and enjoyment of legally held firearms and accessories.
As it now stands also,the owner is realistically only left with surrender without recompense.
As these items are now CAT A [prohibited] under the EU directive,they cannot be exported within the EU to another EU state for sale.

Nor can they be exported to the USA,as there is a prohibition on importing high capacity mags under the arms control act,and of "machine guns" under the Mc Clure /Volkmer act 1986

Nor can they be exported to any other country,as Ireland is a signtory of various UN arms export treaties that prohibit "military arms and dual use equipment" from being exported from the Republic

Were it even possible to export these items,it is impossible to do so in the time frame of 31 calender days for the mags and now 190 calender days for the arms.As the paperwork for the Dept of both Justice and AGS is simply overwhelming.Each individual firearm and magazine must require an export and corrosponding import certificate. Considering most staff would also be on vacation handling this work possible,it is a impossibility to shift the mags out in this timeframe.

There has been no public announcement as to this SI[,and many are still utterly unaware of this new SI and requirements.Not everyone follows social media in the shooting community,so they are in the utter dark of these changes.

There is no accurate count of these types of guns or mags here in the ROI,Gusstimates,put the number of guns as below 60 and greater than 20.The mags could be possibly more than 50 and less than 800


There seems to be no consideration given to the various " escape hatches" in the EU directive as to grandfathering these types of firearms,and magazines by the Irish govt for some reason

Such as the rendering incapble of magazines to hold either 20 or 10 shots respectively.There is precedent to do such under Irish firearms laws, Ref the .22 pistol mags renderd to 5shots,and the directive allows nations to transpose
this directive into national firearms laws as they see fit,as well as grandfathering said firearms to the national legal pool of firearms.

What can the Govt do to sort this out?

Easiest.
Add an addendum to the legislation grandfathering said rifles,and mags like the CF handguns to a national pool of restricted rifles,that may be liscensed by anyone with a restricted liscense.As it will be impossible to aquire such a surplus rifle in the EU anymore,as all future surplus military and police fiream stock will now be destroyed by the respective national govts under this directive.These rifles have suddenly also increased in value to their owners as well.

Easy.
Add an addendum on the mags that,if they were imported before Sept 2018,they are hereby grandfatherd,OR they may be renderd incapable of holding more than 20 or 10 shots respectively.Irrespective of magazine body size.

On the less than 60 cm firearms,that if the folding stock is permantly pinned in an extended position,or replaced with a solid stock.AND/OR a muzzle device is permantly afixed to the barrel to bring it above the 60 cms length it is no longer a CAT A firearm and may be moved to CAT B10

Messy
Allow said firearms holders,if practicable to their specific model the option of replacing their recivers and/or fire control parts,with civillian only semi auto recivers and fire control parts,and barrels,and surrendering the converted former select fire parts and recivers,and barrels and re issuing the liscenses then as CAT B firearms,as they are now civillian firearms with same serial numbers made with some non pressure bearing parts or select fire recivers, surplus parts.[Germany has a precedent to do this and does sell such firearms]If not practible,the state will have to compensate the owner,and GRAUNTEE that the new issued liscense WILL NOT fall foul of the Amendment Francis Fitzgerald brought in.That post 2017 all future semi auto liscenses stand revoked ,as this sI has not been enacted,and these were previously legal liscenses issued before 2017

Hideoulsly messy.
Ignore any and all suggestions.Demand confiscation,Expect legal HC challenge from individuals and organisations,drag this thru courts,fork out taxpayers money in a "gun buyback scheme" as the media wil brand it,lose the good will of a group that did vote for you five years ago because of FG's fair play and listening to Irish shooters in the Dail hearings,in an upcoming election within the next 6months,and with a crisis facing the state on Oct 31st the equivilent of the Emergency"


[1] Its unclear what this 60 cms with a folding stock means? Do they mean overall lenght of the firearm with the stock extended or closed? The barrel length itself?

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Duuudddeeee. No Mod hat on or anything like that (for clarification), just a personal opinion. Attack his policies, actions and previous history, but stooping to that is just.............. no.

I'll be glad to see the back of the man and his ignorant and short sighted policies that only serve to pad his political wallet while having absolutely NO effect on criminality.

Like the guy, cannot remember his name, from Sinn Fein during the Oireachtas sessions a few years back and he refused to call them firearms, but rather weapons. Knowing it'll be a key buzz word. Sinn Fein of all people, but again they won't be there forever.

I'm sorry,but I cant show mercy to hyprocrites in power,who attack us and make us out to be the problem and make us out to be law breakers, then when his own vice of smoking was being legislated.He was stamping his entitled foot and demanding his "right" to poision others with his nicotine fumes inside in the Dail bar and stating that as his Right " he would ignore the law and smoke there anyway!" How would that have gone down with him if it was a Pro gun TD that said the same about handguns at the time?
The guy was an asshat then,obviously stil is one now then,his star moment in his carreer was just this event,and he spent the rest of his political life on the backbench where he obviously couldnt improve his lot,and thus failed as a politican,which is a hard thing to do.

So lets wish him well in his future [hopefully] more productive and useful career of ditch digging or shoe mending.As Mark Twain said on that point its usually people of those two professions who end up in politics after an unfruitful career in those fields.:rolleyes:

The Shin Feiner with the attitude was Angeus O Snoddigh? Shnodig? Snotty? Somthing like that...

meathstevie

knockon wrote: »

....and John Deasy will be retiring shortly ..”Asked about the highs and lows of political life, Mr Deasy said the high was banning the use of hand guns in 2008”

Source: RTE News

Good riddance!

Absolutely, achieved the grand total of feck all.

The gangsters are shooting each other with sub machine guns and assault rifles now, just in case they get caught with an illegal handgun and get a cross look from one Mr Deasy....

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

OK here goes;
The ban of magazines with a capacity above 20 rounds in short firearms,and 10 rounds in long firearms,and the banning of firearms with a "length[???]" of 60 cms with a folding stock[1] and the banning of former select fire firearms that have been converted to semi auto only is both farught with constitutional pitfalls under Article 46 of the Irish constitution and under Article 14 of the European Charter of Human Rights.As the Irish constitution in this article grauntees a citizens right to posses private property,and persue a livly hood,and shall only be deprived of it save under the common good,but to which a citizen has remedy in law to apply for compenation for their "property.Which is not specified in laws as to what property is defined as

Article 14 of EUCHR.States that where property that was legal and peacefully enjoyed by any EU citizen,and a state makes its possesion illegal,it must recompense the citizen to market value on a good day,before it was made illegal,and within a timely manner.

Therefore as the SI now stands on those points,it is a clear intent to confiscate such items or deprive Irsh gunowners of their use and enjoyment of legally held firearms and accessories.
As it now stands also,the owner is realistically only left with surrender without recompense.

As these items are now CAT A [prohibited] under the EU directive,they cannot be exported within the EU to another EU state for sale. Nor can they be exported to the USA,as there is a prohibition on importing high capacity mags under the arms control act,and of "machine guns" under the Mc Clure /Volkmer act 1986 Nor can they be exported to any other country,as Ireland is a signtory of various UN arms export treaties that prohibit "military arms and dual use equipment" from being exported from the Republic Were it even possible to export these items,it is impossible to do so in the time frame of 31 calender days for the mags and now 190 calender days for the arms.As the paperwork for the Dept of both Justice and AGS is simply overwhelming.Each individual firearm and magazine must require an export and corrosponding import certificate. Considering most staff would also be on vacation handling this work possible,it is a impossibility to shift the mags out in this timeframe. There has been no public announcement as to this SI[,and many are still utterly unaware of this new SI and requirements.Not everyone follows social media in the shooting community,so they are in the utter dark of these changes. There is no accurate count of these types of guns or mags here in the ROI,Gusstimates,put the number of guns as below 60 and greater than 20.The mags could be possibly more than 50 and less than 800 There seems to be no consideration given to the various " escape hatches" in the EU directive as to grandfathering these types of firearms,and magazines by the Irish govt for some reason Such as the rendering incapble of magazines to hold either 20 or 10 shots respectively.There is precedent to do such under Irish firearms laws, Ref the .22 pistol mags renderd to 5shots,and the directive allows nations to transpose this directive into national firearms laws as they see fit,as well as grandfathering said firearms to the national legal pool of firearms.

What can the Govt do to sort this out? Easiest. Add an addendum to the legislation grandfathering said rifles,and mags like the CF handguns to a national pool of restricted rifles,that may be liscensed by anyone with a restricted liscense.As it will be impossible to aquire such a surplus rifle in the EU anymore,as all future surplus military and police fiream stock will now be destroyed by the respective national govts under this directive.These rifles have suddenly also increased in value to their owners as well. Easy. Add an addendum on the mags that,if they were imported before Sept 2018,they are hereby grandfatherd,OR they may be renderd incapable of holding more than 20 or 10 shots respectively.Irrespective of magazine body size. On the less than 60 cm firearms,that if the folding stock is permantly pinned in an extended position,or replaced with a solid stock.AND/OR a muzzle device is permantly afixed to the barrel to bring it above the 60 cms length it is no longer a CAT A firearm and may be moved to CAT B10 Messy Allow said firearms holders,if practicable to their specific model the option of replacing their recivers and/or fire control parts,with civillian only semi auto recivers and fire control parts,and barrels,and surrendering the converted former select fire parts and recivers,and barrels and re issuing the liscenses then as CAT B firearms,as they are now civillian firearms with same serial numbers made with some non pressure bearing parts or select fire recivers, surplus parts.[Germany has a precedent to do this and does sell such firearms]If not practible,the state will have to compensate the owner,and GRAUNTEE that the new issued liscense WILL NOT fall foul of the Amendment Francis Fitzgerald brought in.That post 2017 all future semi auto liscenses stand revoked ,as this sI has not been enacted,and these were previously legal liscenses issued before 2017 Hideoulsly messy. Ignore any and all suggestions.Demand confiscation,Expect legal HC challenge from individuals and organisations,drag this thru courts,fork out taxpayers money in a "gun buyback scheme" as the media wil brand it,lose the good will of a group that did vote for you five years ago because of FG's fair play and listening to Irish shooters in the Dail hearings,in an upcoming election within the next 6months,and with a crisis facing the state on Oct 31st the equivilent of the Emergency"

The law is very clear what constitutes one's property, it's the material and immaterial goods you own. Your socks and your house are both your property.

yubabill

As regards the handgun ban, I heard a senior Garda on the radio Thursday, describing the gangland situation as being the worst it's ever been.

So it's very clear to any objective observer (and there are exactly none, outside the shooting community) that the handgun ban has had zero effect on gun crime, given that most handgun owners were allowed keep their firearms after the ban.

On the new SI;

1. I see the NARGC have concerns they will be pressing - I imagine the main one is the new requirement for safe storage of all firearms, including shotguns.

2. While there are issues for many, the main take-home from this SI is that there is no general ban of C/F S/A long arms.

Grizzly 45

1. I see the NARGC have concerns they will be pressing - I imagine the main one is the new requirement for safe storage of all firearms, including shotguns.

What is their big gripe?That their members must put their guns in a slip when travelling by car and the ammo in a locked receptacle as well to prevent casual theft? SOP with European hunters for the last 20 years.
Be more concerned that you werent consulted y DOJ and save your ammo (pun intended) for the upcoming lead ban.


2. While there are issues for many, the main take-home from this SI is that there is no general ban of C/F S/A

"You're welcome Irish gunowners!"

Firearms United Network.

BattleCorp

I've a question regarding the new S.I.

If I buy a gun or parts that were imported into the EU today (after September 14, 2018), it's clear that the essential components need to be marked. Easy when it's a complete gun but what's the story with guns made from different parts? Say an F Class gun? The receiver will come with one serial number and most likely the barrel will come with a different serial number as it won't be from the same manufacturer.

Does this serial number have to match the serial number on the licence or can it be any unique number? The only number recorded on the licence is the number on the receiver. So now I potentially have a gun with two different serial numbers.

And then what happens when you need to buy a new barrel or two guys swap barrels? Or if you have a spare barrel? There is only a register of who has what serialised receiver (licencing system). There is no register anywhere citing who has what numbered parts and such a register would be completely unworkable.

Would I be in breach of this SI by having a gun with several different serial numbers inscribed on it?

Grizzly 45

Good question.
Another one to add to the list.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

If I buy a gun or parts that were imported into the EU today (after September 14, 2018), it's clear that the essential components need to be marked. Easy when it's a complete gun but what's the story with guns made from different parts? Say an F Class gun? The receiver will come with one serial number and most likely the barrel will come with a different serial number as it won't be from the same manufacturer.

Every action i've owned or bought has had a serial number. This is what i used for the license.

For the barrel i use the action serial number simply because not one barrel i have ever bought/imported has had a serial number. On the end of each barrel blank is the caliber, twist rate and manufacturer stamp but the gunsmith always cuts this bit off. Two reason, i'm told, for record keeping of the barrels imported and record of which barrel went to which build.

However the barrel itself never had a manufacturer stamp, serial number, even caliber marked on it.

So in short, at least for rifles barrels, its going to be either a non existant issue or one that affects such a tiny percentage as to not be a problem (i only include the latter because obviously i've never seen every brand of rifle barrel)

Would I be in breach of this SI by having a gun with several different serial numbers inscribed on it?

When it comes to buying a "pre-fit" barrel from a manufacturer like say Remington, Savage, etc. where there may be a serial number on it then it does cause a problem.

You can have a spare barrel for your firearm so long as the caliber does not change. The new SI says it must be marked. However if your license is for action "ABCDEF" and barrel "ABCDEF" but your spare barrel is marked "GHIJKLM" then the SI does not address what to do in the cases of spare barrels of the same caliber.

Should you remove the serial number under which it was imported and replace it with the one you are currently licensed on or do you "add" it to your current license as a second barrel?

Does PULSE allow for multiple serial numbers on the one license? I think not, but stand to be corrected.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

2. While there are issues for many, the main take-home from this SI is that there is no general ban of C/F S/A

"You're welcome Irish gunowners!"

Firearms United Network.

Page 22 of the revised Garda Commissioner's Guidleines:

Issuing persons and applicants alike should be mindful that, on 18th September 2015, the Minister for Justice and Equality announced that any new restricted firearm certificates for centre fire semi-automatic rifles, granted between that date and the enactment of proposed legislation banning the future licensing of these types of firearms, shall stand revoked.

I know its the Commissioner's Guidelines, and while based in law there is no current law banning them, but the self imposed ban that seems to be occurring is wrong and all that, but just be mindful that the issue is not gone, it's not forgotten about, and if enacted will cause a headache for those after Sept 2015.

Cass

@ Grizzly_45 - I'm not going to quote the whole post, but your list of reasons the SI is a problem is all about the mag ban. Not nit picking, being a smart arse, nor am i getting at you but is that the only issue?

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

@ Grizzly_45 - I'm not going to quote the whole post, but your list of reasons the SI is a problem is all about the mag ban. Not nit picking, being a smart arse, nor am i getting at you but is that the only issue?

At the moment it is ASFIK the only fightable issues....

Does having critical components marked on firearms post 2018 from outside the EU affect our use and enjoyment on a daily basis?

Does Irish gunsmiths having to put their name and details on one of thier creationns affect us as users?Or them more so if some one in the EU is suddenly wearing a bolt in their forehead and the gun looks like somthing Wily E Coyote bought from an ACME catlouge after firing?:p It';s not just EU paranoia about ghost guns,[which this wont really affect anyway] but also product liability?

People are losing their sht about these storage requirements and transport requirements.There is NO NEED to turn your car into a mobile bank vault,as some [notably some gundealers] who want to sell you a car safe that is utter overkill when a gunslip with a 99cent padlock and putting your ammo in a locked duffle bag covers you legally, with one in the boot with one in the back seat.With BOTH keys on your car ignition key ring. That makes it impossible to access gun or ammo without physically stopping the car to do so.

How difficult is it to put your ammo in a locked press or chest of drawers,room,ammo box etc?Which was always issued in the Garda recommendations of good firearms ownership?

This is SOP for EU shooters for the last 20 years folks,and we all know ,AGS included ,this will only prevent casual theft not someone sophisticated enough to bypass immobilisers and modern car alarms.Even your rear inbuilt 2 thousand biometric gun safe wont survie these people. I've been doing this myself since year dot,so me,personally,I cant see how you could argue against good gun house keeping?

Maybe I'm missing somthing in the rest of this SI,but what is the great burden on regular non restricted shooters???

I should also mention,that this SI has wiped out in one fell swoop,every gun dealer that is also a film and movie prop supplier of firearms to the Irish film industry! The majority of modern firearms are or were former select fire guns,irreapbly converted to blamk firing!So guess in future any Irish action films will have the heros and villans running about with Airsoft,while crap sound effects are added?
And any of you lads who do reenactment from ww2 to today...Hand em in too!! You blank firing MP40,STEN ,etc is now a CAT A prohibited too.
Maybe the FCP will be voicing these folks concerns too???

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

I know its the Commissioner's Guidelines, and while based in law there is no current law banning them, but the self imposed ban that seems to be occurring is wrong and all that, but just be mindful that the issue is not gone, it's not forgotten about, and if enacted will cause a headache for those after Sept 2015.

Yup,and thats why I mentioned this in the "messy" part of my previous post.


"Allow said firearms holders,if practicable to their specific model the option of replacing their recivers and/or fire control parts,with civillian only semi auto recivers and fire control parts,and barrels,and surrendering the converted former select fire parts and recivers,and barrels and re issuing the liscenses then as CAT B firearms,as they are now civillian firearms with same serial numbers made with some non pressure bearing parts or select fire recivers, surplus parts.[Germany has a precedent to do this and does sell such firearms]If not practible,the state will have to compensate the owner,and

GRAUNTEE that the new issued liscense WILL NOT fall foul of the Amendment Francis Fitzgerald brought in.That post 2015 all future semi auto liscenses stand revoked ,as this sI has not been enacted,and these were previously legal liscenses issued before 2015

yubabill

Cass wrote: »

Page 22 of the revised Garda Commissioner's Guidleines:


I know its the Commissioner's Guidelines, and while based in law there is no current law banning them, but the self imposed ban that seems to be occurring is wrong and all that, but just be mindful that the issue is not gone, it's not forgotten about, and if enacted will cause a headache for those after Sept 2015.

As we know, an Irish solution to an Irish (non-)problem.

This fudge probably works better than actual legislation.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yup,and thats why I mentioned this in the "messy" part of my previous post.


"Allow said firearms holders,if practicable to their specific model the option of replacing their recivers and/or fire control parts,with civillian only semi auto recivers and fire control parts,and barrels,and surrendering the converted former select fire parts and recivers,and barrels and re issuing the liscenses then as CAT B firearms,as they are now civillian firearms with same serial numbers made with some non pressure bearing parts or select fire recivers, surplus parts.[Germany has a precedent to do this and does sell such firearms]If not practible,the state will have to compensate the owner,and

GRAUNTEE that the new issued liscense WILL NOT fall foul of the Amendment Francis Fitzgerald brought in.That post 2015 all future semi auto liscenses stand revoked ,as this sI has not been enacted,and these were previously legal liscenses issued before 2015

And where would you hypothetically stand if you owned a self cocking magazine fed rifle with a manually operating spring detent to let the bolt slot back into battery while picking up a cartridge from the magazine. Definitely no longer a semi-auto as the cycle is interrupted and requires manual intervention to complete.

The time difference to complete the cycle would be fractions of a second but the gun would not operate as a semi-auto.

Grizzly 45

Manually Actuated Release System.[MARS]...
You'd be in "here be dragons!" country.As it is a totally unknown system to the Irish firearms legislation. Dunno if the Brits can even build them anymore either.But it is a neat work around the UK semi auto ban,and they were expensive enough too.

Nekarsulm

"Gun Enthusiast" is now officially a code for "criminal", in the minds of the Press anyway.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1168003071877664770

Now it remains to be seen what the actual facts of the case are, the lad could have taken gun parts or ammo from the station or during a search, but the paper has passed judgement on him (and you) anyway.

kowloon

On the marking of non-EU imported guns, does this apply to everything and is there going to be a standard to the marking? I'm thinking of all the horrible US importation markings that mess up the finish and devalue the guns. Does someone have to go bashing some nasty markings into something covered in gold inlay? Will it apply to antiques?

Nekarsulm wrote: »

"Gun Enthusiast" is now officially a code for "criminal", in the minds of the Press anyway.

Drug enthusiast

Brontosaurus

Nekarsulm wrote: »

"Gun Enthusiast" is now officially a code for "criminal", in the minds of the Press anyway.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1168003071877664770

Now it remains to be seen what the actual facts of the case are, the lad could have taken gun parts or ammo from the station or during a search, but the paper has passed judgement on him (and you) anyway.

From the article it sounds like he was licensed and had more ammo than the license allowed?

garv123

How do I get my 1000 Shotgun shells from the Shop to the house? Does locking the boot count?

How do couriers ship ammo?

Nekarsulm

garv123 wrote: »

How do I get my 1000 Shotgun shells from the Shop to the house? Does locking the boot count?

How do couriers ship ammo?

Lock the boot.
Couriers just bung them in the back with everything else.
After all, lots of their parcels would be worth far more than a slab of cartridges, so its always locked anyway.

grassroot1

garv123 wrote: »

How do I get my 1000 Shotgun shells from the Shop to the house? Does locking the boot count?

How do couriers ship ammo?

One box at a time, under armed guard with apache gunships for cover,get a boy scout to help you across the road, wear the correct PPE, have a signed note from your parents, collect two hundred euro and do not pass go.:D
Do what you always done its bo%$&x

Nekarsulm

garv123 wrote: »

How do couriers ship ammo?

The courier is a lot more likely to leave them propped up against your front door, or thrown into the local Centra, than you are!

kowloon

grassroot1 wrote: »

One box at a time, under armed guard with apache gunships for cover,get a boy scout to help you across the road, wear the correct PPE, have a signed note from your parents, collect two hundred euro and do not pass go.:D
Do what you always done its bo%$&x

Is it safe having a bunch of shells packed together like that? Surely it would make sense to have each in its own armoured sleeve with the primers kept separately in wet storage.

meathstevie

kowloon wrote: »

Is it safe having a bunch of shells packed together like that? Surely it would make sense to have each in its own armoured sleeve with the primers kept separately in wet storage.

Don’t you be giving some eejits notions....

Rows Grower

Looks like some privacy laws are going to be tested.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/09/06/exclusive-feds-order-apple-and-google-to-hand-over-names-of-10000-users-of-a-gun-scope-app/

Grizzly 45

A specific app,for a scope that is an ITAR item,that no doubt many of us have here?:)

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

A specific app,for a scope that is an ITAR item,that no doubt many of us have here?:)

I put this in the wrong thread didn't I?

Yup, I think I did.

Sorry about that, interesting topic all the same.

kowloon

Is there anywhere that gives an overview of gun laws in Europe in English? Legalspeak is incomprehensible enough without having to translate it.

JohnFitz2332

I'm guessing this has been asked on this or another thread before but I couldn't be bothered trying to find it; is there a body similar to the NRA for the EU that one can become a member of?

Disclaimer: I am not into the NRA at all, but we do need a lobby.

Mississippi.

JohnFitz2332 wrote: »

I'm guessing this has been asked on this or another thread before but I couldn't be bothered trying to find it; is there a body similar to the NRA for the EU that one can become a member of?

Disclaimer: I am not into the NRA at all, but we do need a lobby.

F. U.N.
firearms United network

JohnFitz2332

Mississippi. wrote: »

F. U.N.
firearms United network

I saw that alright, but wasn't sure if it was legit or, indeed, effectual. Appears to be a one man band?

Grizzly 45

JohnFitz2332 wrote: »

I saw that alright, but wasn't sure if it was legit or, indeed, effectual. Appears to be a one man band?

Yeah ...Very ineffectual alright:D.Came out of nowhere , started by a very peed off Pole, formed within 14 days of the Paris attacks, and within 6 months has become one of the most effective, registered and recognised EU lobby groups on the firearms scene. They were lobbying the EU parliment,for six weeks before FACE even woke up to the fact that their members would be affected. Non stop relentelss lobbying of EU MEPS.So much so that two women MEPs stood down the might of the EU 's bullying at 3;30 AM in a star chamber meeting AKA in EU speak as a "trilouge" of the insufferable Sir Peter King and Guy Verhoffstat, demanding that a UK type gun ban was the "best for the entire EU!" They were armed with information provided by a extremely tough lady from Berlin,who spent her entire downtime while having chemo thereapy,doing research on the fallacy of the EU gun control.She was so good that even the anti gun side started to use her facts and figures and research.

The one man band has groups in ;Ireland,Germany,France,Italy,Hungary,Norway,Poland,Sweden,Finland,Assoc membership in the UK,The Czech Republic ,Slovakia,Malta,and a few others I might have forgotten. All voulenteers,keeping down day jobs and have put their own monies in the game,without a penny in return or sponsorship from the gun lobby ,as claimed by some anti gun journalists.

FUN is also a recognised lobby group in Brussels and liscensed to conduct such activity.We alaso have the top Swedish female IPSC shooter as a spokesperson,one of the best Italian gun writing and journalist on our side,a female German gun dealer and also now have in place one of the women MEPs on the council who is not going to let the EU push the lead ban thru without a serious fight.
Our local chapter FUN IRL or just "FUNI",is in a formative stage.It needs to be recognised by a national body so as to be able to get a more substantative voice to Irish shooters in Europe.

Donations ,we cant accept them at the moment here as we are a non recognised body or have any liscensing to collect or solict funds...What would be more helpful right here and now would be "a few good men&women" who would muck in on assisting in lobbying,answering phones,emails and keeping the FB page and hopefully sometime ,a webpage straight and narrow.