Our Sport is Under Attack Again

BryanL

Sparks wrote: »

J

And btw I'm old enough - and so are you - to remember the good old days before EU money took our De Valera theocracy and turned it into an actual country. I remember it well enough that I'd happily fight to stop us going back to that absolute hellhole of a failed state run by kinder****er priests and white slavers, thankyouverymuch.

Dev died in 1975, I'm betting you were born after that? De Valera left office in 1959!!!!!!

The greatest gift Dev and the catholic church left us is the ability to lay the blame for every short coming in this country at their feet.
A bit like the compo culture it's always someone else's fault.

cavan shooter

This thread is starting to look like the Life of Brian Scene......"What have the Roman's ever done for us........."ðŸ˜

Fact of the matter is, there was a directive it was signed into statute law without much consultation it is going to hurt, as we are the collateral damage and I'd guess the PTB dont give a **** they will state it's for the greater good, ignore our legitimate complaint while the criminals just laugh at them.

The law only works because we the vast majority of the people respect the law and the Gardai who enforce it, its voluntary, a criminal scumbag doesn't give a **** about safe storage of ammunition in transit or the serial number on essential components, in fact he will deliberately deface the firearm. So again the legislation will do nothing to stop the criminal, the legislation is to punish the law abiding citizen, who will give out but ultimately comply. What's needed is proper policing and resources feet on the ground stopping these sh1ts.....bring back the special criminal courts and leave us alone.....rant over

Grizzly 45

cavan shooter wrote: »

This thread is starting to look like the Life of Brian Scene......"What have the Roman's ever done for us........."ðŸ˜

Fact of the matter is, there was a directive it was signed into statute law without much consultation it is going to hurt, as we are the collateral damage and I'd guess the PTB dont give a **** they will state it's for the greater good, ignore our legitimate complaint while the criminals just laugh at them.

And before long it will be who were the quitters and splitters.Peoples Pouplar Front of Judea,Pouplar Peoples front of Judea,Peoples Front of Judea...Wait that s us!:pac:
They'll state its an EU directive that there is nothing they can do about it,apart from adding their own bit of gold plating.Unfortuneatly for them, they have run foul on this one by actually BANNING items. That were once legal under both Irish and EU law,and unde both sets of laws they do have to offer compensatiion.

I mean would you accept a cumpulsory purchase order on your house and lands, or "property",which like Marxism,was never acurately defined in Irish law,[but is in EU law]and not expect compensation in return?? Or your livelyhood made illegal,[IE turf cutters on now EU perserved bogs,or drift net fishermen on the Shannon estury] and not expect recompense?
OR
The DOJ could actually make this all go away,by doing two three things.
Grandfather any such existing rifles here.Which they can do under the directive.

State that any 20 round mags ,can be converted to holding not more than ten or 20 rounds respectively.

The worst is the wording of the folding stocked rifles/shotguns,as it doesnt specify either an overall length,or barrel length od less than 60 cms when folded?That needs to be clarified properly.But lets just ASSUME it is barrel length.There is nothing stopping anyone from adding a flash hider,muzzle break,etc to bting it over 60 cms and having such permantly mounted.

Is it a personal hardship on us that gundealers/smiths put their name and make and model on any of their creations,or mark gun parts when they arrive in Ireland from the USA?How many guns are there out there that are personal imports since last year,ehere this must be done?

a 20 euro ammo box and poundshop lock,sorts you out for ammo storage,and a locked compartment or even a lockable bag sorts you out for carrying your ammo to where you shoot,is hardly going to be the end of us all.Yes! I know its the principle of the thing!And I agree wholesale with you,but its not somthing you can really go to war on either,as it is very open to interpertation as to what a lockable receptible actually is.

This is really a semi auto owners problem,of a specific type,so its not unfixable without much effort and reason on both parties side.

What we should be more concerned about is.HOW it was done,and WHY was there no consultation with anyone or the organisations?

Cass

Wonder has everyone had a chance to take a breath on this yet?

There is still a lot of confusion for some on what these mean with incorrect information being spread about needing safes in your car, etc.

Wonder if we should put up a chart of some sort and give the salient points and what they entail? Might be hard as some of it will be interpretation, ours, and could be viewed as giving legal advice. Will ask someone to check that before we get there, but maybe we should start listing the key points and how it effects people and the other points of the SI and who exactly it will effect and in what way.

Grizzly 45

Good idea...Put a disclaimer under it,that it is not legal advice and any legal points are open to interpertation.
Was on the range Sunday,and was surprised on how many lads hadn't even head of this SI and how they would be affected.

solarwinds

It would be a good idea alright. To be honest there is nothing in it that will affect me. But like all these things its opening a door as to god knows what down the road.

2011

I made a few calls, I can assure you all that there is nothing to worry about. Nothing will change.

Grizzly 45

2011 wrote: »

I made a few calls, I can assure you all that there is nothing to worry about. Nothing will change.

We could interpret that either good or bad...:)
Sorry,I always get worried when someone wishes to relive me,and others of our legal property,and not offer recompense.It's generally known as theft,whether you are an individual or government doing the theiving.

Could you be a tad more specific on the who,what,when where,and how? in your few calls?:)
Otherwise this is about as informative and helpful as the current Govts statements to the public on what to do on Oct 30th this year.:(

BattleCorp

2011 wrote: »

I made a few calls, I can assure you all that there is nothing to worry about. Nothing will change.

Of course things will change. I'm not being smart but do you think that the law will just be ignored by the Gardai and we won't have to follow it?

Will they let me keep using my 30 round magazines? Not a chance.

Will they let the lads with fully autos converted into semi autos keep them? Not a chance.

I don't know who you phoned but unless one of them was the chief justice........take what they said with a pinch of salt.

Grizzly 45

TBH,I'd wonder would the average AGS know a converted semi if they saw one? It's not exactly required information when the gun was imported to state that it was military/police surplus ,way back whenever.And unless you pull the gun apart and knew exactly what you were looking for in the mechanism,it might be a lot of trouble to be worth it? Some guns like the HKs you could simply change out the trigger group pack for a civillian HK 91/93 and it is incapable of ever being converted to select fire again.Even with the full auto bolt carrier.

Cass

2011 wrote: »

Nothing will change.

The SI would seem to disagree with that assumption.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't know who you phoned but unless one of them was the chief justice........take what they said with a pinch of salt.

It could have been the Commissioner himself, it'll make no difference.

It's an EU directive and Irish law. Which means even if Charlie wanted to repeal it he is obligated, nay forced, to introduce legislation to make the directive compliant here because we don't have legislation for some, most of the issues the directive raises.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

TBH,I'd wonder would the average AGS know a converted semi if they saw one? .

Probably not, but every three years they can reduce numbers gradually as they've done with C/F pistols.

Cass

Ok here is what i have so far. I'll work out the legal disclaimer and intro in a while:

Importation from outside the EU or the manufacturing of firearms within the EU

All firearms falling into this category (manufactured in Ireland or imported from outside the EU after 14th September 2018) must upon import or completion be marked on all the essential components with an identifying marker. This requirement will NOT be satisfied by simply affixing the manufacturers stamp, but MUST have an identifying serial number on all essential components. The full list of what markings are required include:

• (a) the name of the manufacturer or brand;
• (b) the name of the State;
• (c) the PULSE identification number of the manufacturer;
• (d) the unique serial number of the essential component;
• (e) the year of manufacture (if not part of the serial number); and
• (f) the name of the model (where feasible).

An example is provided in the form of:

Example:

Alfa Firearms Limited

IRELAND 9999 001/2018 [“Precision”]

While the term "essential components" may seem somewhat vague its safe to assume it means the action, barrel, slide, upper/lower receiver, bolt, and possibly stock. It may NOT be limited to just these essential components, but certain items are exempted such as items that are affixed to a firearm but do not meet the requirement of essential component such as a scope, rail, rings, etc.

The markings must be off a minimum depth of 0.04mm and its retrospective. So if your firearm was imported or manufactured after 14th September 2018 it must comply with these regulations.

The exception to this being any item deemed as deactivated under the act.

Transport of firearm and ammunition.

The SI has amended the methods required for transporting firearms and ammunition. All ammunition, for the relevant firearm to which the person is licensed, MUST be stored in a locked receptacle while in transport and separate from the firearm for which it's used.

There are no guidelines as to what constitutes a locked receptacle, but common sense must be applied (on both sides). A zip-loc bag is NOT a locked receptacle, however on the other hand a full BS standard gun safe is also not listed nor required. The best advice is a solid receptacle such an a metal ammunition box, fitted with a locking point and lock.

The firearms themselves must be concealed from view and separate to the ammunition. So a gun slip/case will suffice and "separate to" is not listed but its safe enough to say once both firearm and ammo are not in the same receptacle/case you meet the requirements of the SI.

Under 18s

Any person under the age of 18 seeking a firearms license, as per the firearm act, must have the written permission of a parent of guardian which states the parent/guardian knows and understands the applicant is applying for a firearms license.

Restriction on "high capacity" magazines/loading devices.
As and from the commencement of this SI no person may acquire a loading device/magazine which is:

• Greater than 20 rounds for a restricted handgun
• Greater than 10 rounds for a centrefire, semi auto, long firearm (which means rifle or shotgun)

These devices are also prohibited, or banned, from being owned by anyone currently in possession of them as and from the date of commencement of this SI. Meaning come September 1st any person with these must dispose of them by means of exporting, selling outside of the EU or surrendering them fro destruction.

Re-categorisation of certain firearms making them banned

Category A firearms are now (and pretty much always were) prohibited. Some items have been "moved" to catergory A the most relevant of which for us is any firearm that was an automatic firearm and has been converted to semi auto is now classed as Category A, and so prohibited. Meaning any person owning one has until February 29th of 2020 to dispose of this firearm as their license will stand as revoked as and from March 1st 2020.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Probably not, but every three years they can reduce numbers gradually as they've done with C/F pistols.

But how??? You'd have to pull in every S/A out there and have it technically inspected,and lets face it AGS ballistics dept ,is the primary cause of their 95% court case losses.
Its not exactly that you can say as with a handgun,its not a .22 and its a certain size.This is a technical and mechanical difference,that by altering component parts takes it in or out of that category. Thats why the EU put a grandfathering option into this for countries,as they finally figured out it was too messy and they were leaving themselves wide open to compo claims. And then what do you do with guns like the British Inch pattern SLR in all its derivatives?It was a previous military rifle,but it NEVER was built in select fire!!!

Next problem is...Where do you dispose of them outside the state? they are now prohibited CAT A firearms, and mags so no one in the EU can buy them,and you cant export them to the USA,as even there they will be classified as machine guns.So you would have to destroy them and sell them as junk "parts kits". for cents on their value.

Being coerced to hand them in without recompense,is actually setting a VERY dangerous precedent for every citizen the state.As it has violated your constitutional rights to secure properrty,and violated the EUCHR as well? Whats to say it cant come back and say that your car of a certain type must be handed in for destruction as it is unenviromentally friendly to combat climate change,because the EU said so?

No,I see this getting very messy,and I can see this involving a high court injunction and alot of money,if the state doesnt want to talk to us on this.:(

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But how??? You'd have to pull in every S/A out there and have it technically inspected,

You are working under the impression that it's too much hassle so they won't bother. There are less than 200 S/A rifles out there. Perhaps a little more, but not that much that a visual inspection of each firearm is out of the realm o possibilities.

Plus you assume such an inspection will happen. Simply find other reasons why a person has not fulfilled their "good reason" quota and refuse the license.

Slightly pessimistic on my part, but it's not unfounded. Plus i'm not going to go into much detail here as it'll only serve to provide "ammunition" for those seeking ideas on how to make life more difficult for us.

Next problem is...Where do you dispose of them outside the state?

You basically cannot. Destruction is the only real solution.

Being coerced to hand them in without recompense,is actually setting a VERY dangerous precedent for every citizen the state.As it has violated your constitutional rights to secure properrty,and violated the EUCHR as well? Whats to say it cant come back and say that your car of a certain type must be handed in for destruction as it is unenviromentally friendly to combat climate change,because the EU said so?

I agree.

No,I see this getting very messy,and I can see this involving a high court injunction and alot of money,if the state doesnt want to talk to us on this.:(

Agree again.

Cass

The following is a summarisation of the recent SI 420/2019 which enacts EU directives on re-categorisation of certain firearms, prohibition of certain items (magazines and Cat A firearms), and amendment to those under 18 seeking a firearms license, and lastly the transporting of firearms and/or ammunition to and from your home or storage place of the firearms/ammunition.

==================================================================================================

Legal Disclaimer bit:


It cannot be stressed enough that this is NOT a legal definition/summary of the sections of the SI. Merely an interpretation for people to easily understand the requirements of the SI, it's effects, and a more user friendly version for the safe and practical implementation of the SI.

If you are in any doubt about any aspect of the summarisation then please feel free to asks, and if necessary dispute the interpretation.

It is also VITALLY IMPORTANT that no action be taken based on the following interpretation of the SI, but rather using the SI itself as a grounds for opposition and/or legal challenge (if anyone finds themselves in a position they feel they need to challenge this). If such a situation arises for any person(s) it is always the our advice to seek professional legal counsel on the matter.

==================================================================================================

Now onto the summarisation of the new SI. There are five main or salient points outside of the usual legal talk. They are:

1. Importing from outside the EU / Manufacturing of firearms within the state.
2. Transporting of Firearms and/or Ammunition.
3. Under 18s seeking a firearm(s) license
4. Restriction on "high capacity magazines/loading devices
5. Re-categorisation of Cat B firearm into Cat A group.

1). Importation from outside the EU or the manufacturing of firearms within the EU

All firearms falling into this category (manufactured in Ireland or imported from outside the EU after 14th September 2018) must upon import or completion be marked on all the essential components with an identifying marker. This requirement will NOT be satisfied by simply affixing the manufacturers stamp, but MUST have an identifying serial number on all essential components. The full list of what markings are required include:

• (a) the name of the manufacturer or brand;
• (b) the name of the State;
• (c) the PULSE identification number of the manufacturer;
• (d) the unique serial number of the essential component;
• (e) the year of manufacture (if not part of the serial number); and
• (f) the name of the model (where feasible).

An example is provided in the form of:

Example:

Alfa Firearms Limited

IRELAND 9999 001/2018 [“Precision”]

While the term "essential components" may seem somewhat vague its safe to assume it means the action, barrel, slide, upper/lower receiver, bolt, and possibly stock. It may NOT be limited to just these essential components, but certain items are exempted such as items that are affixed to a firearm but do not meet the requirement of essential component such as a scope, rail, rings, etc.

The markings must be off a minimum depth of 0.04mm and its retrospective. So if your firearm was imported or manufactured after 14th September 2018 it must comply with these regulations.

The exception to this being any item deemed as deactivated under the act.

2). Transport of firearm and ammunition.

The SI has amended the methods required for transporting firearms and ammunition. All ammunition, for the relevant firearm to which the person is licensed, MUST be stored in a locked receptacle while in transport and separate from the firearm for which it's used.

There are no guidelines as to what constitutes a locked receptacle, but common sense must be applied (on both sides). A zip-loc bag is NOT a locked receptacle, however on the other hand a full BS standard gun safe is also not listed nor required. The best advice is a solid receptacle such an a metal ammunition box, fitted with a locking point and lock.

The firearms themselves must be concealed from view and separate to the ammunition. So a gun slip/case will suffice and "separate to" is not listed but its safe enough to say once both firearm and ammo are not in the same receptacle/case you meet the requirements of the SI.

3). Under 18s

Any person under the age of 18 seeking a firearms license, as per the firearm act, must have the written permission of a parent of guardian which states the parent/guardian knows and understands the applicant is applying for a firearms license.

4). Restriction on "high capacity" magazines/loading devices.
As and from the commencement of this SI no person may acquire a loading device/magazine which is:

• Greater than 20 rounds for a restricted handgun
• Greater than 10 rounds for a centrefire, semi auto, long firearm (which means rifle or shotgun)

These devices are also prohibited, or banned, from being owned by anyone currently in possession of them as and from the date of commencement of this SI. Meaning come September 1st any person with these must dispose of them by means of exporting, selling outside of the EU or surrendering them fro destruction.

5). Re-categorisation of certain firearms making them banned

Category A firearms are now (and pretty much always were) prohibited. Some items have been "moved" to catergory A the most relevant of which for us is any firearm that was an automatic firearm and has been converted to semi auto is now classed as Category A, and so prohibited. Meaning any person owning one has until February 29th of 2020 to dispose of this firearm as their license will stand as revoked from March 1st 2020.

BattleCorp

The markings must be off a minimum depth of 0.04mm and its retrospective. So if your firearm was imported or manufactured after 14th September 2018 it must comply with these regulations.

So if a gun or parts come from Germany after 14th September 2018, then all is good (no need for additional markings) because they came from inside the EU? Is this correct?

Grizzly 45

As the SI says...Before Sept 2018.You are good to go.

BattleCorp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As the SI says...Before Sept 2018.You are good to go.

I said after Sept 2018. :D:D

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

You are working under the impression that it's too much hassle so they won't bother. There are less than 200 S/A rifles out there. Perhaps a little more, but not that much that a visual inspection of each firearm is out of the realm o possibilities.

Ballpark guesstimate more than 20 and less than 60 of these types of rifles/shotguns would be concerned. Stuff like yours or mine are,and the majority are exempt as they are civillian CAT B rifles from birth.

I guess Insp Greene and Sgt Cummins will be on tour again then?:) As that is who would be the only "qualified" personel who could make that judgement and have the technical knowledge to do so[hopefully!] Its nothing a FO could do and it have legal standing.

Plus you assume such an inspection will happen. Simply find other reasons why a person has not fulfilled their "good reason" quota and refuse the license.

And back to the DC dance then,as you have to justify in writing why you refused it.It's not as simple anymore for them either.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

I said after Sept 2018. :D:D

Yup,and you are still good to go on that aspect too.:)

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

So if a gun or parts come from Germany after 14th September 2018, then all is good (no need for additional markings) because they came from inside the EU? Is this correct?

The date of 14th September 2018 means any firearm imported into the EU or manufactured in the EU (Ireland included) from that date to present must have these markings.

If the firearm was imported or manufactured before that date, you're golden. I believe it's not necessary through grandfathering.

If your firearm was not manufactured in the EU, but imported from another EU country before OR after this date then chances are it already meets these requirements, but if for some reason it does not then you must make it compliant by having markings made on it.

I believe, and again it's an opinion, that the majority of firearms if not them all, will fulfill this requirement from "birth" as the action, receiver, barrel, slide, etc, etc. are all usually marked. Even those imported into the EU will have these markings.

As we said earlier in the thread this is a knee jerk reaction to the myth of ghost guns. Essentially a useless piece of legislation that won't tackle the criminality of those already breaking the law by buying parts and assembling a gun from said parts without a license or registration.

Cass

There are times i re-read my posts and realise i may make a good politician what with my talent for bull**** and long responses that don't directly answer the question.

I know Grizz answered the question, but so as to leave no stone unturned:

BattleCorp wrote: »

So if a gun or parts come from Germany after 14th September 2018, then all is good (no need for additional markings) because they came from inside the EU? Is this correct?

Correct.

Hack12

Taught's on restricting semi auto CF mags to 10 rounds as done for 22LR pistols?

BattleCorp

Hack12 wrote: »

Taught's on restricting semi auto CF mags to 10 rounds as done for 22LR pistols?

I'm assuming you meant .22lr rifles as .22lr pistols are restricted to 5 rounds.

Actually it's a bit different than .22lr rifles. It's legal to have a .22lr magazine that holds more than 10 rounds if you have it on a restricted licence.

There's no option to hold onto the semi auto CF mags even if you have a restricted licence.

So yeah, I'm not happy about it. There was no need to ban them as the EU Directive didn't say they had to be banned. There was an option to grandfather them but our Government didn't do that and have fcuked several of us because we are stuck with mags that will be illegal to have in the next two weeks and they've offered us no compensation for them.


Apologies. Ignore what I said above. I misunderstood your quote. I interpreted restricting as in not allowing, and not as 'blocking' the mag. I'm not having a good day today. Exceptionally thick for some reason.

Scalachi

Local Chief Super is specifying that as long as the 15/30 round mags are restricted by RFD to permanently to only take 10 rounds, they are OK with that.

Cass

I believe Hack12 is talking about permanently restricting your 15, 20, 30 round mags to hold no more than 10 rounds. IOW have the mag, but permanently block it to such a degree that it can never be unblocked and function as anything other than a 10 round mag.

If so then there may be a point to the idea as the directive nor the SI strictly prohibit it. The problem (yes, another one) being that there is no standard for what constitutes a permanently blocked mag, no way to guarantee it can never be retro fitted to be able to function as a 20/30 round mag again, no gunsmith/RFD with any sort of qualification that would be accepted as a standard, and lastly its a grey area because it's not specifically addressed so if one CS allows it, but another doesn't you have a court case.

Yet another in the ever growing list of cock ups this SI is creating.

Scalachi

Agreed Cass.

If anyone modifies a mag to reduce the capacity, while it may be "permanent" it can only really be done a couple of way by adding or removing and then braising or welding, but not sure how really permanent it would really be to someone will tools and determination

Cass

The annoying part, and this came up during the pistol mag dispute which lead to SI 391/2015, is that if such a modification were deemed acceptable we [the shooting community] would still be told "sure how do we [the Gov] know you won't just undo it".

BECAUSE WE'RE LAW ABIDING YOU FECKLESS TITS.

Say what you like about the Irish but our lack of a backbone as a nation means while we bitch and moan we will bend to whatever rules and laws are placed on us.

Anyone not intending to honour a practice of blocking a mag is most likely not going to follow any other law too, and this leads us back to criminals will always get guns and more laws won't stop criminals. What have criminals got to do with this some may ask. Well the whole reason for this SI was to stop terrorists with high capacity "weapons" and Ghost guns and where better to start such an attack than on the law abiding, registered and thoroughly vetted shooting community. :rolleyes: